Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

[Batman]

No fucking way are turbolaser bolts slower than Asgard plasma beams. Yes, they're slow but the Asgard beams make hand phaser discharges look speedy.

And you're cheating. 304s never had the Ancient cloak. For whatever reason, they never adapted the system.
The missiles are omnidirectional explosives so even if they live long enough to hit will waste at least half their yield on empty space.
And you seriously underestimate Star Destroyer firepower. The invisibly tiny trench guns on an ISD are MT level.

[Rogue 9]

Wars fighters are both offensively and defensively in a completely different league than SG ones. We've seen both Wraith Darts and Death Gliders brought down by 'small arms fire' (SAWs/M4s) and MANPADS and 302s by Death Glider weapons the performance of which against inert targets (i.e. the ground) isn't all that impressive. Wars fighter weapons are KT range.

Thanks to The Force Awakens, we also see a T-70 X-wing disabled by small arms fire while not fully powered up. That doesn't speak to their shielding, obviously, but the engine block was no match for blaster fire.

ST is a series that gives a certain realism, it is not warhammer 40k in which a spear destroys a planet by canon but without the slightest connection with the feasibility of the thing.

If you're referring to Haarken Worldclaimer, his spear doesn't literally destroy planets; he just plants it in the ground when he makes planetfall to signify that he will take the world, and as of landing on Vigilus he had never failed.

[PREDATOR490]

Daedalus vs Superhive

The Plasma Beams have no effect on the Super Hive which is taking the hit directly to the hull. Wraith have demonstrated no shields so what exactly is the difference between a ZPM hive hull and a normal hive hull ?


Cloaking -
Absolutely NO 304 has ever been cloaked by anything except Merlin which required a ZPM to achieve. Thus, it is beyond unlikely the SGC would be able to pull this off. They do not have ZPMs to spare and have demonstrated no knowledge of how to even do it.

As for Ancient cloaks being 'undetectable' - Enemy at the Gates literally has the Super-Hive detect a cloaked puddle-jumper and start firing at it. The stated reason for this ability was 'Sensors were more sensitive'

More 'powerful' sensors = Break the Ancient Cloak
Thicker armour = Plasma Beams not so effective

Thus, 304 getting a cloak - Not gonna happen and from all evidence it requires ZPM level power and ANCIENT knowledge to actually do it. Neither of which the SGC has in abundance to make it 'standard' load out.

ZPMs are batteries and it is extremely speculative on what they actually do to 'increase' the effectiveness of what they are plugged into.
Regardless, Missiles / railguns are not going to benefit much from having a better battery. The plasma beams are the only system that MIGHT see an increase in ability but that is pure assumption and does not automatically mean they will hit harder.

[Batman]

Wars fighters are both offensively and defensively in a completely different league than SG ones. We've seen both Wraith Darts and Death Gliders brought down by 'small arms fire' (SAWs/M4s) and MANPADS and 302s by Death Glider weapons the performance of which against inert targets (i.e. the ground) isn't all that impressive. Wars fighter weapons are KT range.

Thanks to The Force Awakens, we also see a T-70 X-wing disabled by small arms fire while not fully powered up. That doesn't speak to their shielding, obviously, but the engine block was no match for blaster fire.

Wars small arms, which are MJ range. And that was a powered down fighter sitting on the ground. SG fighters in flight get downed by what for all appearances are real world small arms.

[Batman]

Yes, okay, that should've been 'from' all appearances. It's not like anybody but me cares

[WhiteLion]

Guys, the topic assumption is a dedalus class ship with all the available technologies that have been applied to it in the series. I never talked about 304 standards but 304 with all the canon technology available, practically the conditions of the last episode. It makes no sense and is off topic to provide examples where the 304 does not mount zpm.

@Batman:
The cloaking device exists, even if it is not an ordinance because innovative technology, but it exists and is canon. Only works with zpm.
The asgard rays appear much slower than the phasers but absolutely no slower than the turbolasers.

@ PREDATOR490
It makes no sense to mention the clash with the Super-Hive because in that clash the SuperHive had the ZPM and the 304 no, the topic is based on a 304 with the zpm. In that fight, having an almost unlimited source of energy was the Super Hive and not the 304.
Normally an asgard beam without zpm destroys a hive ship with a few shots, without zpm ....
Furthermore, if you read the description of the asgard weapons it is specified that the efficiency varies according to the power supplied, same for the shields, the zpm provides almost unlimited energy from the zero point.
It is not speculative at all, could you give me a shield capable of withstanding the damage of the 304 shield with a zpm? I have never seen another ship sustain a coronal mass eruption of a star. By comparison the fire of a spaceship's weapons is very weak, not even the weapons of Warhammer 40k have that power, they would need a super weapon like DeathStar, Eclipse, two-stage cyclonic Torpedoes or the 40k Planet Killer.

while on the subject of weapons, I do not think I know everything, I am an ordinary person who bases what he says on what he sees on the screen and what he reads from canon sources.
If I'm wrong in classifying the power of Star Wars or Star Trek weapons I don't want to insist on being wrong, just kindly ask that I be given proof of this, because until now the canon material that could classify SW and ST weapons as a gigaton weapon it doesn't exist, or at least I don't know it. Indeed what is seen on the screen is far from gigaton weapons. If you who affirm the contrary can form me examples I would be grateful to you, it is not my habit to be objective, rather it is the opposite. If I'm wrong I want to correct myself, but I can't accept explanations not supported by canon facts of the respective series.

[NecronLord]

More when I get the time but WhiteLion I would like you to watch this and tell me Star Trek doesn't have gigatons.

[WhiteLion]

Exactly, this is the kind of talk I like to make, statements supported by canon evidence, great. The video is canon and the damage is certainly gigaton size, now that we can reason.
Based on this video, we can now surely equate the Star Trek ships with the BC-304 in firepower.
I also think this puts the enterprise ahead of the bc-304, as the torpedoes appear not only in the gigaton range, but also faster than the Star Gate missiles. At this point I would say that the BC-304 has only the concealment and the shield that outclass those of the Enterprise, which can absorb 47.3 GW of energy.
What weapons were in the video? Torpedoes? Unfortunately I haven't arrived at that episode yet.

[NecronLord]

Honestly I mostly posted that to illustrate the problems with your approach which is what I'm going to call (And this is a George Orwell Newspeak word) bellyfeel; we've no real way to say what any weapon actually is without looking at it.

You keep coming back to the Coronal Mass Ejection, which is certainly impressive, but in truth it doesn't conform to what we know of actual Coronal Mass Ejections; the one in Stargate was very powerful, enough that it supposedly provided.

By comparison I once calculated the upper limit of the power of a single ZPM as 8 megatons/second, based on the dialogue indicating that they had insufficient power to lift Atlantis into orbit and demonstration from the pilot episode and Before I Sleep that the city acutally floats (Janus describes the mechanism for surfacing as releasing docking clamps, and the ship as floating to the surface when it is out of power); meaning it is less dense, within its shield envelope, than water, plus a scaling of the city's size.

According to director's commentaries, they later upped the VFX size of the city in later seasons which puts that under doubt as a maximum but it's an order of magnitude still.

How do we reconcile the idea that the ZPM can deflect a world ending CME over the course of a few minutes with the idea that it can only propel the city, which requires far less power, in a trio, with a single ZPM being insufficient?

In truth the answer is that these are inconsistent, that's why we strive to use the most common data-points, and for a lot of stargate examples those aren't too imposing.

You've mentioned a high end example, but now compare the length of time it took the Asruans' stargate-channeled beam, which was powerful enough to damage Atlantis' shields, to chew through a very modest asteroid.

That's much more of a megatons-per-second weapon than a 'resists ELE solar flares' thing, isn't it?

[WhiteLion]

Basically your reasoning is objective, but it is applicable only to reality. In a scifi series there are cotradditions, this is nothing new, but what we cannot deny are the events that actually took place. As for the torpedoes of Discovery in the same way the shields of the BC-304 that have resisted the collapse of the crown of a star. They are not questionable because they are real events.
It would be like denying a fact that really happened with logic alone, facts are facts, they cannot be denied.
If the torpedoes of the discoveries have torn to pieces of the continents it cannot be denied, because we have seen it, it is a fact. The same reasoning for the BC-304 shields with the zpm.

The fact that the canon contradicts itself is common, but does not invalidate the events that occurred. Otherwise I could say that the torpedoes of discovery in reality do not have that power because in other circumstances the damages reported were different. But this is not how things happened in canon episodes. Speculations are void in the face of facts.

[NecronLord]

You see the problem with that, is that the highest end examples are often quite ludicrous compared to others, as are the lowest.

If we apply your logic, which is that all numbers are canon therefore the highest numbers are the only ones worth discussing, to Star Trek, we get Starfleet ships easily able to obliterate entire planetary crusts. The Die Is Caste episode of DS9 is famous for its fleet of Romulan and Cardassian ships bombarding a planet and destroying large percentage areas of its crust and even mantle (!) which results in truly hilarious firepower figures if those statistics are taken literally.

Those incidentally lead to the idea that starfleet ships would be able to laugh at mass extinction level solar flares, just laugh. Lantea's crust wasn't destroyed, after all. If we take the highest power implications within the series as canonical, Starfleet ships would just laugh at ZPMs as qaint.

That's what happens when you base your power estimates on a single exceptional feat.

[WhiteLion]

I believe that everything we see in the official series is true, we simply do not know all the factors in every moment of the series, sometimes even for scenic needs the authors grant themselves some freedom. But if in Star Trek they say that a torpedo with an omega warhead can destroy a planet then it is.
Do you objectively believe that it is more objective to base a discourse on the facts that are seen in a canon series, or on a personal deduction resulting from an own interpretation of part of the facts seen in a series? What you see is a fact, what do you know what weapons they used in DS9's Die Is Caste? Were they conventional or modified for the occasion? etc. You cannot contradict a canon in this way just because you consider it out of what is correct for you.

[PREDATOR490]

I believe that everything we see in the official series is true, we simply do not know all the factors in every moment of the series, sometimes even for scenic needs the authors grant themselves some freedom. But if in Star Trek they say that a torpedo with an omega warhead can destroy a planet then it is.

Where the hell is this 'Omega warhead' shit coming from ?

[Tribble]

I believe that everything we see in the official series is true, we simply do not know all the factors in every moment of the series, sometimes even for scenic needs the authors grant themselves some freedom. But if in Star Trek they say that a torpedo with an omega warhead can destroy a planet then it is.
Do you objectively believe that it is more objective to base a discourse on the facts that are seen in a canon series, or on a personal deduction resulting from an own interpretation of part of the facts seen in a series? What you see is a fact, what do you know what weapons they used in DS9's Die Is Caste? Were they conventional or modified for the occasion? etc. You cannot contradict a canon in this way just because you consider it out of what is correct for you.

In Star Trek V the Enterprise A travelled to the centre of the galaxy within a matter of hours / days.

In Voyager, the titular ship was initially stranded over 70,000 ly from Fed Space and it was stated it would take them over 70 years to get home via conventional warp.

By your logic the Enterprise A must therefore be orders of magnitude faster than Voyager, even though that was a single feat from one (reviled) movie when compared to an entire television series. And even though the Enterprise A is around 100 years older than Voyager, which was described as being the most advanced and fastest ship in the fleet at the time of its launch.

Ever heard of outliers?

[NecronLord]

I believe that everything we see in the official series is true, we simply do not know all the factors in every moment of the series, sometimes even for scenic needs the authors grant themselves some freedom. But if in Star Trek they say that a torpedo with an omega warhead can destroy a planet then it is.

Do you objectively believe that it is more objective to base a discourse on the facts that are seen in a canon series, or on a personal deduction resulting from an own interpretation of part of the facts seen in a series? What you see is a fact, what do you know what weapons they used in DS9's Die Is Caste? Were they conventional or modified for the occasion? etc. You cannot contradict a canon in this way just because you consider it out of what is correct for you.

Plasma (romulan) and photon torpedos, plus disruptors, regular weapons.

Again you should learn about what outliers are.

A ZPM that can resist a mass extinction event when ZPMs are also insufficient to lift a city into orbit on their own, and insufficient to vapourise a small asteroid, and several other occasions when they're seen to be fairly limited by comparison, is an outlier.

Really making predictions about sci-fi is a bit more complex than that the documentarian approach the main website has, but I don't think you're ready for that yet.

@ Predator: He's talking about the hypothetical use of the omega particle as a bomb which was speculated in the episode but which we never saw.

[WhiteLion]

@Tribble:
no, I believe that if an event appears in a canonical episode then it is real in the series.
In your example both things are true, the enterprise was able to reach that speed in that specific situation, the voyager instead in its situation was not able to go faster. It does not mean that the enterprise is able to always arrive at that speed, but only that if there are the same conditions it is able to do so.
In fact the bc-304 is not always able to sustain the eruption of the crown of a star, it can do so only if there are the conditions of the moment in which it did in the canon episode in question, ie if it is equipped with a zpm .
If something happens in the canon it can only be reproduced if the same conditions are met.

@ PREDATOR490: in the voyager series there is an episode in which the omega particle is treated, a particle banned by the federation because of its enormous destructive power, so much so as to forbid even that it be used as a weapon by arming the torpedo heads or other weapons, the damage would be too high.

@NecronLord: as I said above I understand your speech, but you treat it as if it were an unrepeatable event, if it occurred in those conditions then in the same conditions it will be reproducible.
I do not want to criticize absolutely but my opinion your speech on the zpm is superficial, the zpm supplies energy to a device, as then this device manages to exploit it is another matter. The Atlantis engines need 3 zpm to lift, the 304 shields need only a zpm to withstand the eruption of a star's crown. It is linear as a thing, also because in the series there has never been an episode in which the shield of the bc-304 with the equipped zpm has proved to be less powerful, thus contradicting the power demonstrated in encasing the blow of the crown of star.

I repeat mine does not want to be a critical or offensive speech, it is only my point of view.

[PREDATOR490]

I am aware of the Omega episode but at no point is an 'Omega Warhead' used and it is contradictory to the entire portrayal of that episode that it would be used in that way.
The Feds are explicit in their orders to destroy Omega because of how dangerous it is to Warp Drive and it is volatile to the point they cannot keep it stable. The Federation are not going to keep that stuff around let alone shove it into their Torps.

The added issue is that making Omega is exceedingly difficult because its based on some sort of special ore which even the Borg seem to have issues getting.

It is simply not feasible for a Federation ship to be flying around with 'Omega warheads'


This is the same situation with the SG 'Cloak' that keeps getting thrown around here.
Only one 304 has been cloaked in the history of SG and that required a ZPM and an ANCIENT to achieve.
No evidence exists that a puddle jumper cloak could be fitted onto a 304 and the SGC personnel do not know how to do it.

Thus, your 304 cloak - Not happening.

You wanted 'canon' evidence that Ancient Cloaks could be 'broken'
This was explicitly done by the Wraith - Thus they can be broken.

SGA CEM

Even with a ZPM shield the Daedalus was taking damage from the heat and it is implied she would not have been able to survive much longer.
SGU has established how shields work in the SG universe and that energy bleed through is a real thing. This is consistent with the visual depiction of damage across the SG universe with damage being caused even when the shields are up.

Thus, even if you have ZPM shields, the bleed through can still cause damage to the ship.

As for the Plasma Beam.
No evidence exists that Plasma Beams benefit from a ZPM.
Provide evidence that they do otherwise the only example of plasma beam performance comes from STANDARD 304s.

[NecronLord]

@NecronLord: as I said above I understand your speech, but you treat it as if it were an unrepeatable event, if it occurred in those conditions then in the same conditions it will be reproducible.
I do not want to criticize absolutely but my opinion your speech on the zpm is superficial, the zpm supplies energy to a device, as then this device manages to exploit it is another matter. The Atlantis engines need 3 zpm to lift, the 304 shields need only a zpm to withstand the eruption of a star's crown. It is linear as a thing, also because in the series there has never been an episode in which the shield of the bc-304 with the equipped zpm has proved to be less powerful, thus contradicting the power demonstrated in encasing the blow of the crown of star.

I repeat mine does not want to be a critical or offensive speech, it is only my point of view.

In many ways it is an unrepeatable event, as noted by an interview with the science advisor of Stargate Atlantis brought in in the following season...

In one episode of Stargate: Atlantis, the two lead characters argued over the use of a spaceship’s shields to deflect a coronal mass ejection from a nearby star. The dialog comes almost word-for-word from a conversation between the author Carl Binder and his daughter, an astronomy graduate student, who rejected the idea as implausible.

This is literally the incident she cites as implausible science so I doubt it would have happened again, as indeed it didn't in the rest of the series' run, with other incidents being much more modest.

The whole incident is frankly rather cheesy, if you look at the special effects you see the CME being deflected off the ship as though it is a jet of water hitting a rock and splashing off; how much of the energy is actually absorbed and redirected? Some percentage to be sure.

For amusement more than anything, what percentage of the energy was absorbed by the shields, and what percentage was remaining in the particles redirected away from Lantea?

[Batman]

I'm conceding the 'faster than turbolasers' issue. I seem to have confused the Asgard plasma beam with the painfully slow Ori toilet seat ship weapons.

[WhiteLion]

@ PREDATOR490:
in fact, as I wrote I gave the example of a hypothetical head with omega parcels to have a weapon of adequate power as a comparison, in the episode it is never realized.

For the cloaking device, I repeat that I wanted to consider the bc-304 in the conditions of the last episode, equipped with all the technologies obtained in the series. from the episodes we see very well that both the cloaking device and the zpm are not standard equipment of all the BC-304, only one mounted them, but I wanted to do this topic to compare the apex of the technological development of the BC-304 in the last episode .

For the shields, in the video we clearly see that they do not collapse, the heat starts to damage the hull, but the shields have held up because the amount of damage that the shield is able to sustain is proportional to the energy supplied to it by the generator, which in this case being a zpm is almost unlimited.
Consider that the heat produced by a coronal mass eruption of a star is much higher than the fire of a spaceship's weapons, to prove this we can see that even when the bc-304 was bombarded by whole squadrons of wraith ships or Ori never had any heat damage, and the weapons in question were not weak, indeed.

The Asgard plasma beam we never see it firing with the zpm mounted, we only know that the Stargate technology in performance is strongly influenced by the energy supplied to the devices, we see it when the hive ship is equipped with the zpm and increases armor and weapons enormously, we see it when the bc-304 bears the explosion of the conron.


@NecronLord:
From what we read in the interview it can only be seen that it is recognized as implausible scientifically, but allow it because often in fantasy events do not follow real physics much, they do not mention the fact that it is a unique or unrepeatable event.

As implausible as it may seem, we must remember that it is science fiction and not a real physics documentary. Otherwise Warhammer 40k should be erased en bloc, nothing or almost in 40k has a semblance of scientific plausibility, but that's why, watching a scifi series is nice also to dream a little and stay light, stay too attached to scientific plausibility it makes us forget that it is a work made for pure entertainment and not for a scientific university education.

[NecronLord]

You fundamentally misunderstand the point. We can clearly see this event as an outlier not least because it was never repeated by any equivalent feat. The out-of-universe evidence of the science adviser highlighting it as implausible is merely gravy on top of the fact that it's a one off far beyond anything else.

Even taking it as a data point, you need to answer what percentage of the CME's energy was absorbed and not redirected in this incident? That's un-quantifiable, we can't tell if the incident is gigawatts or petawatts, because as you can see here...



The Daedalus doesn't just stop the particle stream cold like most stargate weapon-on-shield incidents, the particles are split off, and that means that most of their energy continues on, just on another vector.

Like a laser beam hitting a mirror, only part of its energy is lost.

Every calc you see from this incident, like ones on SB and elsewhere, uses an arbitrary estimate of what percentage of the energy from the flare is absorbed by the shield vs how much remains propelling the particles on their new vector. This is not something you can quantify.

[WhiteLion]

I agree, but although not quantifiable, the energy of a coronal mass eruption of a star remains, it is not a minimal phenomenon that you can minimize, although the energy range is variable and not calculable, it is not possible to place it under a minimum, which still remains a titanic figure that is not seen in a combat between spaceships.

instead I do not agree with the single event, even if it does not diminish the reality and the feasibility.
According to your reasoning even the ability of the Death Star to destroy planets is a unique event and therefore not considered, because in the series we see a planet being destroyed by the superlaser only once. But common sense tells us that if a ship has performed an action, this will be repeatable in the same conditions at least.

[NecronLord]

See, that's not how it works. Let's look at Echoes.

McKAY: It's a coronal mass ejection on a scale that dwarfs anything our sun has ever emitted. Apparently the sun in this solar system goes through an unusually turbulent sunspot cycle every fifteen thousand years or so. The Ancients have records of this class of C.M.E. occurring twice before.

SHEPPARD: The ship was very close to the sun when it happened.

McKAY: It's a massive prominence. It arced up and then collapsed when the magnetic field surrounding it weakened. We're talking an intense proton stream travelling at over four thousand kilometres per second.

So let's look at our sun.

The Violent Sun from NASA's cosmos gives the upper end of a Sol Coronal Mass Ejection as 10^24 joules over a few minutes. Let's assume Lantea's is ten times more powerful than that. That fits the description without being too extravagant (too many orders of magnitude and you're likely to be increasing the star's absolute energy output IE making the sun expand or disrupt itself, which doesn't happen in the clip)

10^25 J.

Let's say this is delivered over six minutes, a decent amount of time to fit the scene, whereby the Daedalus hyperspaces from Lantea to somewhere 'near' the sun to interpose itself (by comparison it takes around 8 minutes for light from our sun to reach Earth).

So to make that overall energy figure into power we divide it out by the time taken, 6 minutes is 360

2.7*10^22 W.

Let's say that the shield absorbs a 0.1% amount of the flare.

2.7*10^19 W

To put that in terms you're likely more comfy with, that's 6.7 gigatons per second. That's pretty impresive, but it's in line with the quoted yields (200 m/t shot for ha'tak weapons, thousand megaton naquadah nukes, etc) for upper end stargate weapons.

So, see how I plucked that 0.1% figure out of my butt there? Now I want you to justify why that figure is any worse or any better than any other figure? How do we know it's as high as 0.1% and not 0.001% (where it'd be in line with not being able to loft Atlantis) absorbed by the shield? Why isn't it 99%? That's probably closer to what you feel it should be, but we really have no way to know which it was.

[WhiteLion]

Forgive me but you did a completely hypothetical and speculative reasoning, based on numbers completely devoid of precise information concerning the specific case in question. The stars are different, how can you also say that it was absorbing 0.1%? We have no way of knowing how much coronal mass has been expelled. You based your reasoning only on hypothetical deductions. If we want to make a serious reasoning the hypotheses are only misleading.

[PREDATOR490]

Forgive me but you did a completely hypothetical and speculative reasoning, based on numbers completely devoid of precise information concerning the specific case in question. The stars are different, how can you also say that it was absorbing 0.1%? We have no way of knowing how much coronal mass has been expelled. You based your reasoning only on hypothetical deductions. If we want to make a serious reasoning the hypotheses are only misleading.

At this point it is becoming extremely obvious you are not getting what you are being told.

You want on-screen evidence then want numbers for stuff that has never been quantified and cannot be quantified.
You want to claim the Daedalus absorbed X amount of energy - Go ahead and prove that number.
You want to claim the Daedalus absorbed ALL of the energy - By your own on-screen only shit - That is clearly false.

Thus, the Daedalus took a % of that energy and could only do so for minutes with damage getting through.
That is ALL that can be determined.