The Galactic Empire invade the Star Gate Universe

[Alyeska]

We have a few concrete numbers on Stargate firepower. I believe there was mention of 200 megaton firepower from a Hattak. This was probably the single main gun. Hattak's have many smaller guns which they use for anti-fighter work, or terrorizing the population.

There are a few numbers given for Earth technology. Siege Part 2 has Atlantis being defended with 1,200 megaton mines. And Daedalus showed up with MK IIV armed missiles. Most likely the same thing. The MK IX warhead was listed as "multi gigaton" and "gate buster". Seeing as they already have a 1.2 gig warhead, that implies the MK IX is fairly powerful. Actual firepower is unknown. Numbers were crunched on the fireball in SG1, but that lead up to 17 teraton. Probably inflated by the shield holding the fireball against the planets surface and squeezing it out further. Possible calculations possible for the episode where the Apollo nuked the Asurans. And the Horizon weapons delivery system. A MIRV for launching 10 MK IX warheads simultaneously. The episode was 6 warheads and 4 decoys. But there is no reason they couldn't just load it up with 10 warheads.

And yet with those missiles, the primary anti-ship weapons were still beam weapons. The Ori toilet bowls undoubtedly were powerful. Then Asgard beam weapons above that. But difficult to quantify. And we know that some Stargate energy weapons can be countered with shield tricks, implying the weapons might not use brute force to do their damage (Tollan Ion Cannons and Asgard Beliskner weapons, for example).

The biggest threat is the Asgard. If they did not have to worry about the Replicators, they can focus their attention on the Empire. And the Asgard have a very dirty trick of their sleeve. They can artificially increase the mass of a star and turn it into a black hole. One powerful enough to consume a habitable world at normal solar system distances in less than two years. The Asgard can traverse an estimated distance of many million light years in just hours while towing the Prometheus. Or without towing an Earth ship possibly much faster. Thor responded to a distress call in Thors Chariot in mere minutes. Gets even better. In the season 7 episode Fragile Balance, Thor responded to a distress call at Earth in 28 seconds.

Asgard. Stupidly fast FTL (capable of crossing the known Universe in under a single life time) and the capability to turn any star into a black hole with substantially more mass. But with less strategic and tactical initiative than your average soldier.

[NecronLord]

Tusken Raiders.

Are we sure? "These blast points, to accurate for sandpeople," always implied that their guns were blasters to me.

Also possibly Chewie's Crossbow,

Embo's definately seems to be a blaster of some sort.

and I think Durge has wrist-mounted spike throwers in TCW.

He does, that's definately a slugthrower there, good one.

That said, the ability to issue some slugthrowers that doesn't really solve the problem of a von-neumann swarm with a modicum of tactical sense, faster FTL and who can just fly right through your shields to board vessels:

THOR
They have fired upon us.

CARTER
Can it penetrate your shields?

THOR
It is more than likely.

[The viewscreen shows Thor's ship, shielded, with the replicator weapon nearing.]

THOR
Brace for impact.

[As the screen shows that Thor's ship has been hit, the ship shudders. An alarm sounds.]

THOR
The hull has been breached.

CARTER
Where?

[The screen shows a plan of the ship's interior.]

THOR
The damage is minimal. The projectile was likely composed of replicators. They are not visible to my ship's scanners. This is how they have boarded Asgard ships in the past.

Really means that they can quite possibly just board imperial ships by flying through their shields and hitting them, this is their regular tactic. And SW Rebels shows a distinct weakness to this sort of thing:
Spoiler

Shows that a star destroyer can be boarded by an unarmed vessel quite easily, if it has sensor scrambling technology, which the replicators have, at least against internal sensors

So certainly keeping them off the Empire's ships - even warships - will be hard.

Certainly if this was a 'the galaxy is parked next door' affair, the replicators could get them easily.

[Borgholio]

We know ascended beings can create good sized thunderstorms and alter the weather. We also know that they can channel some of that power as an energy attack. Priors have wicked telekinesis that can toss people clear over the horizon. I don't think any Jedi or Sith has been able to demonstrate power quite THAT extreme.

[Jub]

We know ascended beings can create good sized thunderstorms and alter the weather. We also know that they can channel some of that power as an energy attack. Priors have wicked telekinesis that can toss people clear over the horizon. I don't think any Jedi or Sith has been able to demonstrate power quite THAT extreme.

Because no Jedi or Sith has ever used TK to lift a starfighter or rip down Star Destroyers from orbit; to say nothing of fleet consuming force storms or teleporting people acrosss galaxies. How about throwing multiple multiton pods from the senate at each other?

[Metahive]

What would stop a humanoid nano-cell replicator from disguising itself, entering an ISD and then releasing bug-replicators there to take over the ship? Or even better, keep the infection low profile and spread to as many other ships first?

The Replicators definitely could give the Empire a run for its money if they incubated for long enough. A surprise attack by an enemy with unknown capabilities when about one fourth or one third of the imperial fleet is compromised is nothing to sneeze at.

[Borgholio]

Because no Jedi or Sith has ever used TK to lift a starfighter or rip down Star Destroyers from orbit; to say nothing of fleet consuming force storms or teleporting people acrosss galaxies. How about throwing multiple multiton pods from the senate at each other?

Lifting a starfighter slowly is not the same thing as chucking a half-dozen people over the horizon. And where in canon are the rest of the examples from? Sounds like EU to me...

[NecronLord]

Because no Jedi or Sith has ever used TK to lift a starfighter or rip down Star Destroyers from orbit; to say nothing of fleet consuming force storms or teleporting people acrosss galaxies. How about throwing multiple multiton pods from the senate at each other?

All of the underlined things are non canon now. Star Wars canon no longer includes Legacies material.

[Themightytom]

For the first few seasons, the Goa'uld are the enemy the Empire would fight, I really doubt they would even bother with SG-1 and Earth unless they either pulled off a major major win, or were identified as leading opposition.

The Goa'uld have cloaked transport ships and themselves. that can be a major issue if a particularly savvy Goa'uld like Ba'al or Nirrti managed to take an imperial officer as a host, or managed to brainwash them. They were able to enhance the nuke in the original movie with Naquidah it seems reasonable that they could build a pretty powerful bomb and just fly it into a star destroyer. The Goa'uld are at their height, with Apophis, Sokar, Yu etc. fielding large, but slow fleets. My guess is the Goa'uld take terrific losses but hold on long enough to start copying SW technology or start caring pieces off for themselves. The hyperdrive advantage has been touched upon, but what about the Stargates? leadership can easily evacuate across the galaxy, half the Goa'uld infrasturcture is just a village of 400 guys building a spaceship, or running a mine, the Empire would probably locate places like Chulak or Dakara quickly but all of the little back waters?

In seasons 5-8 the stargate program is much bigger target, they might cause enough trouble to earn a visit and et wiped off the map pretty quickly, if they are subjugated, well the SGC is a gold mine of information, and while I'm sure Sylar would blow up the mountain or whatever, I am not so sure about whatever backups the NID or the pentagon have. If the Empire had solid allies and a working knowledge of the players involved, I think they could easily take out the Goa'uld just by sending squads of storm trooper through the gate at hundreds of targets.

In seasons 7 and 8 the game changes with the Goa'uld increasingly centralized, and with Ba'al and Anubis using more and more advanced technology. Anbis' eye of Ra enhanced mother ship could destroy a planet after all, it's not a death star, but it's probably a major problem for a star destroyer. . if it managed to blow up abydos just by overloading the stargate that is another issue for the Empire, any of the worlds they conquer have to have the stargate shielded.

Once the cloaking, BC304's are part of the equation, especially if they have ZPM's, the Empire has a huge mobile threat to deal with. Even if Earth gets wiped out, the Odyssey can clearly operate for a long period of time without resupply. Atlantis can just relocate when it needs to. Etc.

In any of the scenarios I would imagine that the Empire invades quickly with overwhelming force and can't be dislodged by the milky way quickly, but Luke is still growing up, the rebels are still rebelling, etc, so the Empire is probably dealing with more than just the milky way, as well as threats in their own galaxy, depending on the time frames involved they have the Ssi Ruk and the Vong approaching.

If ONLY the scout force entered I would imagine that nobody would actually bother them except the occasional system lord, and they could fortify a pretty serious foothold but the Empire doesn't strike me as ever maintaining a low profile.

[Jub]

Because no Jedi or Sith has ever used TK to lift a starfighter or rip down Star Destroyers from orbit; to say nothing of fleet consuming force storms or teleporting people acrosss galaxies. How about throwing multiple multiton pods from the senate at each other?

All of the underlined things are non canon now. Star Wars canon no longer includes Legacies material.

Tossing senate pods is still a thing and if you can chuck one of those that hard you can toss a dude pretty well too.

[SilverDragonRed]

What's your source on sidearm blasters having greater firepower than staff weapons? There's various examples of staff weapons breaking rocks, going right through people, killing from near misses and so on, just as with blasters.

Using this example (assuming the man plus armor makes him of average wieght for a North American), then the staff weapon would be rated at 24 gigajoules.

Blaster pistols are 39 gigajoules.

[Borgholio]

Anbis' eye of Ra enhanced mother ship could destroy a planet after all

Really? I thought it just destroyed the Abydos stargate and surrounding area.

Tossing senate pods is still a thing and if you can chuck one of those that hard you can toss a dude pretty well too.

Tossing a heavy pod slowly and over a short distance is not the same thing as flinging half a dozen guys 20+ miles.

[NecronLord]

What's your source on sidearm blasters having greater firepower than staff weapons? There's various examples of staff weapons breaking rocks, going right through people, killing from near misses and so on, just as with blasters.

Using this example (assuming the man plus armor makes him of average wieght for a North American), then the staff weapon would be rated at 24 gigajoules.

Blaster pistols are 39 gigajoules.

Show your math. I'm quite convinced you made that up out of thin air, not least because you're talking in gigajoules, not megajoules.

[Darth Tanner]

Especially considering how on earth you would rate something that penetrates straight through unknown armour and keeps going... potentially with the majority of its energy intact.

[NecronLord]

Tossing senate pods is still a thing and if you can chuck one of those that hard you can toss a dude pretty well too.

Yes, on the other hand, we never ever not once see a Jedi or a Sith throw anyone so far or fast in the SW canon.

The average human weighs 62 kg, let's make it a round 60. Six of them is 360 kg.




I have no particular speed - but in the original scene, they actually disappear entirely - let's conservatively say it's 20 m/sec. 360kg*20=7,200 kg m/s for momentum. For anything more than this casual eyeballing, let alone to get newtons for the force, I'd have to get the episode and timings and measurements, but even assuming this ballpark figure is right (and I think it a serious underestimate the whole sequence takes less than two seconds) this is enough to move a one tonne (let's be conservative) senate pod at 7.2 m/s, which it is rather faster than Palpatine vs Yoda (though they had imparted angular momentum to them too) were throwing them.

However, the really important aspect of this is that it is far more useful in combat. Obi-wan never picks up a droid or a mando and throws him over the horizon, ever, in the clone wars. Even if Jedi and Sith have parity in terms of force they put out, the priors are much more willing and able to use it to neutralize opponents: IE Priors' telekinesis is a better weapon, and used as such.

[Borgholio]

Necron - Sorry, totally missed this one line.

Are we sure? "These blast points, to accurate for sandpeople," always implied that their guns were blasters to me.

I am thinking of the pod race in EP1 when the Tuskens are camping over part of the course. They're sniping at the racers and it looks like they're firing bullets to me...I don't see any of the tell-tale glow of blaster bolts.

[NecronLord]

No worries, I'm not quite sure about that one either.

Anbis' eye of Ra enhanced mother ship could destroy a planet after all

Really? I thought it just destroyed the Abydos stargate and surrounding area.

It's never clear. He claims it can destroy a planet, does that mean level it, or obliterate it? Certainly the blast wave presumably spreads beyond the immediate area we see though.

[Borgholio]

Perhaps...but Anubis is one of the most arrogant of all Goa'uld so he was probably just being dramatic. I know that the Ancients who helped the Abydonians ascend kept a stargate around so SG-1 could visit one last time and find out what happened. I wonder if they would be able to recreate the whole planet...

[Skywalker_T-65]

Presumably it spreads at least to the Abydos city from the movie. I don't see them moving all their people out of there and to the area right up on the Pyramid. It's very heavily implied that all the Abydonians died (okay, Ascended to be technical), so there is a minimum right there.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I don't think we can take it for granted that REplicator weapons can penetrate all shields. We see them penetrate Asgard shields because they've captured a lot of Asgard vessels in the past and know how they work. I have no doubt that the Replicators could figure out SW tech, but they'd have to physically overwhelm a SW ship first.

For the techno-bugs, the big question is when this invasion occurs. If it's seasons 1-3 then the bugs aren't in the Milky Way (they don't turn up until season and they're busy fighting the Asgard in a galaxy a long way off (3 weeks at Odyssey's best speed with a ZPM, which means it's about 5 times further than Pegasus is, or about 15 million light-years). The Replicators would only learn about the SW invasion from the Asgard, and the Asgard would only learn about it from people on the Protected Planets, and those aren't going to be targets for a while (the Goa'uld being bigger threats than a group of twenty-odd lightly populated pre-industrial planets after all).

On the matter of the Stargates giving the humans/Goa'uld an advantage, perhaps, but not much of one. Sure, their leadership can escape in moments but they can't take an industrial base with them, so their fleets won't get reinforcements and will be ground down either quickly or rapidly, depending on how clever the System Lords fight (which as we see in Season 8 against the Replicators, isn't very smart, trying to defend territory at the expense of resources).

As for the Eye of Anubis superweapon, that is one ship with a power source that was destroyed in the very next episode, and the ship itself shortly after that. For Anubis's big mothership to be a factor you would need a very small window for the invasion to occur in. The same goes for the Kull Warriors, they appear in mid-season 7 and the production facility is destroyed that same episode, so numbers are always going to be limited.

[NecronLord]

Perhaps...but Anubis is one of the most arrogant of all Goa'uld so he was probably just being dramatic.

Or not this is a habitable moon, detonated by the tok'ra after all. Planetary destruction is not unknown to the goa'uld, boasting that one is going to destroy a planet, and then destroying a small part of it, would be illogical and make him look weak.

I know that the Ancients who helped the Abydonians ascend kept a stargate around so SG-1 could visit one last time and find out what happened. I wonder if they would be able to recreate the whole planet...

They didn't, they recreated the stargate briefly, it couldn't be dialed before.

[SilverDragonRed]

Show your math. I'm quite convinced you made that up out of thin air, not least because you're talking in gigajoules, not megajoules.

80.7 kg*1 m/sec= 80.7 (k*m)/s
80.7*299,792,458=24,193,251,360.6
24 gigajoules

The example that I used for the blaster pistol came from when Queen Amidala shot a B-1 battle droid in Phantom Menace.
65 kg*2 m/sec=130 (kg*m)/sec
130*299,792,458=38,973,019,540
39 gigajoules (rounded up)

Especially considering how on earth you would rate something that penetrates straight through unknown armour and keeps going... potentially with the majority of its energy intact.

I didn't even attempt to calculate that part because I don't know what it would take to do that. I was measuring what got imparted to the soldier.

[NecronLord]

I don't think we can take it for granted that REplicator weapons can penetrate all shields. We see them penetrate Asgard shields because they've captured a lot of Asgard vessels in the past and know how they work.

No evidence of this exists, only that they can fly through shields.

I have no doubt that the Replicators could figure out SW tech, but they'd have to physically overwhelm a SW ship first.

Shield penetrating is shield penetrating; people claim a lot of immunities for the empire around here without basis. If anything, there is a strong argument (see Scifights.net) that various imperial shields can be bypassed by flying up to them.

"We're passing through the magnetic fields" rings a bell.

The Replicators would only learn about the SW invasion from the Asgard, and the Asgard would only learn about it from people on the Protected Planets, and those aren't going to be targets for a while (the Goa'uld being bigger threats than a group of twenty-odd lightly populated pre-industrial planets after all).

Earth is the most populated planet in the SG galaxy, why would the Empire not head there?

As for the Eye of Anubis superweapon, that is one ship with a power source that was destroyed in the very next episode, and the ship itself shortly after that. For Anubis's big mothership to be a factor you would need a very small window for the invasion to occur in. The same goes for the Kull Warriors, they appear in mid-season 7 and the production facility is destroyed that same episode, so numbers are always going to be limited.

No, the production facility is captured by the Free Jaffa Army in season 8. One small part of it is blown up in the episode, but it's never said that stops production.

[NecronLord]

80.7 kg*1 m/sec= 80.7 (k*m)/s
80.7*299,792,458=24,193,251,360.6
24 gigajoules

What the fuck is this?

That's not how you calculate kinetic energy. 299,792,458 is c in m/s. How the fuck does that come into it?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Huh, I thought they at least seriously delayed it.

As for the Empire not heading to Earth straight away, in the early season they aren't an interstellar power, the Empire may not even know if Earth exists, where it is or that it's the most populated planet. Certainly at first the main threat will be the Goa'uld, since they're the ones with an actual fleet to fight back with.

The shield-penetrating, hmm, honestly I had assumed that the Replicators could do that because they knew how the tech worked having absorbed it before. I can't recall any other shield-penetrating weapons other than the Tollan Ion Cannons, and those were nullified by Anubis.

[NecronLord]

The shield-penetrating, hmm, honestly I had assumed that the Replicators could do that because they knew how the tech worked having absorbed it before. I can't recall any other shield-penetrating weapons other than the Tollan Ion Cannons, and those were nullified by Anubis.

The Empire has not once negated people flying right on through its shields, except by building a shield on a planet and stopping them from the outside.

If they had that feature on their ships, I'd think it would be something they'd put on the death star, say? Or
Spoiler

Kallus' star destroyer

Imperial ships are comically easy to board.

Likewise, Clone Wars ships, you may recall the scene were Jedi Sasee Tiin and his troops just rocket on over to a seperatist ship and cut their way inside:



The only counterexample is that the shields of Grievous' ship prevented people flying into the docking bay, but note that the shields around the ship did not nor did the droid command ship's shields in TPM stop Anakin just flying on in there.

SW ships shields do not prevent physical boarding.