Challenging Spocktard to a debate

[Imperial Overlord]

The Clans will use artillery, against dug in opponents. There's just no honor or glory in hammering a place from long range with artillery, but most Clans have "and we were bled white" passage in their Rememberance involving attacking a Brian Cache in the retaking of the Pentagon worlds. They really don't like fortresses.

Nope. Battle of Tukayyid, Jade Falcon sourcebook

The elementals withdrew before the forces in the second ship could recover from the shock of this loss, and the Elemental counterstrike,in addition to fighter and massive Arrow-4 missile attacks, allowed most of Jade Falcons to safely board their dropships and leave the planet.

The use of artillery to suppress the Comstar LZ.

Painrack, I said the Clanners will use artillery against fortresses. Saying they hit an LZ with massively armoured and armed dropships acting as assault transports against which single combat is impossible while covering a retreat doesn't contradict that. It's actually supporting evidence for my statement. My statement wasn't exclusionary anyway, so I don't understand why you want to undermine it.

[PainRack]

Painrack, I said the Clanners will use artillery against fortresses. Saying they hit an LZ with massively armoured and armed dropships acting as assault transports against which single combat is impossible while covering a retreat doesn't contradict that. It's actually supporting evidence for my statement. My statement wasn't exclusionary anyway, so I don't understand why you want to undermine it.

lol. The Elemental strike force may had hit the Highlander while it was deploying. But why would you believe that somehow, the mechs on the other Overlord isn't going to deploy? And thus all aerospace fighters and Arrow IVs would be focusing their attack on the dropship, as opposed to the LZ? Especially since said warfare is actually mobile warfare, and the Clans were using firepower to cover their withdrawal before Comstar forces overrun their own LZ?

[Imperial Overlord]

lol. The Elemental strike force may had hit the Highlander while it was deploying. But why would you believe that somehow, the mechs on the other Overlord isn't going to deploy? And thus all aerospace fighters and Arrow IVs would be focusing their attack on the dropship, as opposed to the LZ? Especially since said warfare is actually mobile warfare, and the Clans were using firepower to cover their withdrawal before Comstar forces overrun their own LZ?

In what universe is deploying under the shadow of an Overlord not a protected position? The Overlord provides a gigantic fire umbrella that covers its deploying troops. I certainly never said they would only hit the dropship, only that the dropships made it a mass combat/fortress type situation where the Clans honor code will allow them to gang up on targets and use artillery even if the battle hadn't become a Grand Melee a long time ago.

[Thanatos]

So apparently saying "Man I didn't do very good" and saying that I wish I had done it when I had more time is "playing the Sympathy Card".

God forbid I make an honest appraisal of how I did.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm shocked he didn't try to twist that into a concession on your part that spocky won the debate. Its something he'd try doing.

[Thanatos]

I'm shocked he didn't try to twist that into a concession on your part that spocky won the debate. Its something he'd try doing.

Maybe he has? I haven't been back to look at the thread and I probably won't for a long time really now that SB is sorta working now.

Besides, it seems like they read this forum more than the people who actually post here.

[PainRack]

In what universe is deploying under the shadow of an Overlord not a protected position? The Overlord provides a gigantic fire umbrella that covers its deploying troops. I certainly never said they would only hit the dropship, only that the dropships made it a mass combat/fortress type situation where the Clans honor code will allow them to gang up on targets and use artillery even if the battle hadn't become a Grand Melee a long time ago.

lol. And given the RANGE of Btech weapons, why is the Overlord vicinity the entirity of the LZ? And you just keep insisting that the Clans would use artillery against fortified postions only.... How on earth is dumping a ship in a zone somehow a fortified position?

Beside. The context of the paragraph was actually the Falcons delaying the entire interdiction effort, including the rear assault by those two Overlords.

As for Grand Meelee, your "obession" with Grand Meelee is absurd. We already know that Smoke Jaguar utterly abandoned the concept of single combat at Tukayyid. Ghost Bears and Steel Viper did, but Jade Falcon had modified it

[Imperial Overlord]

lol. And given the RANGE of Btech weapons, why is the Overlord vicinity the entirity of the LZ? And you just keep insisting that the Clans would use artillery against fortified postions only.... How on earth is dumping a ship in a zone somehow a fortified position?

Beside. The context of the paragraph was actually the Falcons delaying the entire interdiction effort, including the rear assault by those two Overlords.

Btech weapon ranges are shortened for the wargame. They're longer in the fluff, as long as mister game mechanics are king Stackpole isn't writing. And I'm not denying they shelled the entire LZ. You're attacking a strawman. It was a mass combat, they were retreating with their honor shreded (drawn by freeborn pacifists) and dropships do strong point an LZ, especially against aerospace fighter attack since all their nose weapons can claw them out of the sky.,

As for Grand Meelee, your "obession" with Grand Meelee is absurd. We already know that Smoke Jaguar utterly abandoned the concept of single combat at Tukayyid. Ghost Bears and Steel Viper did, but Jade Falcon had modified it

The clans are the ones obsessed by it, not me. You just like to pretend little details like the extremely conservative Jade Falcons standard method of fighting large scale combats, treating them as a large number of one on one duels, doesn't exist and will be abandoned at the drop of the hat.

[PainRack]

Btech weapon ranges are shortened for the wargame. They're longer in the fluff, as long as mister game mechanics are king Stackpole isn't writing. And I'm not denying they shelled the entire LZ. You're attacking a strawman. It was a mass combat, they were retreating with their honor shreded (drawn by freeborn pacifists) and dropships do strong point an LZ, especially against aerospace fighter attack since all their nose weapons can claw them out of the sky.,

Except that their use of artillery in this sense CLEARLY disprove your contention that the Clans will ONLY use artillery against fortified postions. For god fucking sake, stop shifting the goalposts and context.

The clans are the ones obsessed by it, not me. You just like to pretend little details like the extremely conservative Jade Falcons standard method of fighting large scale combats, treating them as a large number of one on one duels, doesn't exist and will be abandoned at the drop of the hat.

Except that as already shown, this "Grand Meelee" didn't occur because the Clans somehow refused to abandon their honour code. To put it simply, you're the one who're insisting the Clans ONLY fight a certain way, ignoring all the exceptions that show they don't. Its an idealised way they attempt to achieve, but the Clans bend to reality too.
Honour of the Clan above personal honour, thus explaining why the Clans combined fire at Alyina. And frankly, despite Victor contention, its not the first time the Clans did that, nor even the Jade Falcons, although it was the first time he experienced it.

[Imperial Overlord]

Except that their use of artillery in this sense CLEARLY disprove your contention that the Clans will ONLY use artillery against fortified postions. For god fucking sake, stop shifting the goalposts and context.

Except that's a strawman of my position. The Clans will only deploy artillery under circumstances where single combat is extremely impractical, like attacking a fortress or attacking dropships (which are present) or covering the retreat of their forces after zellbrigen has gone out the window and not doing so may see them annihilated (also happening). That's happening. If you would confine yourself to arguing against points I actually make you might get somewhere, but knocking down strawmen versions of my arguments doesn't impress.

Except that as already shown, this "Grand Meelee" didn't occur because the Clans somehow refused to abandon their honour code. To put it simply, you're the one who're insisting the Clans ONLY fight a certain way, ignoring all the exceptions that show they don't. Its an idealised way they attempt to achieve, but the Clans bend to reality too.
Honour of the Clan above personal honour, thus explaining why the Clans combined fire at Alyina. And frankly, despite Victor contention, its not the first time the Clans did that, nor even the Jade Falcons, although it was the first time he experienced it.

You've shown no evidence that the Jade Falcons initiated mass combat on Tuakayid. Having a tactical doctrine that forbids you from using effective tactics like shelling the shit out of someone instead of engaging in a series of duels until they break certain arcane rules is a sign of tactical inferiority. That it takes extreme circumstances for them to break zellbrigen and that when they do so is notable indicates they know their standard tactics are less than optimal but they continue to use them anyway despite knowing better. Not a sign of tactical genius.

Let us first take Clan Jade Falcon, conservative and powerful upholders of the Clan way.

Crusader Clans, page 96

Rarely does a Falcon warrior forgo honorable battlefield pratices-usually only under orders of a superior, or when the honor of the unit or the Clan must be placed above that of the individual.

So they'll do it, but only when they're desperate. Concentrating fire on on Victor was a rare enough occurence that it was the first time he had heard about it, which makes it pretty damn rare even when the Inner Sphere initiated Grand Melee combats.

But what they regularly do . . .

. . . . The dominance of zellbrigen has not hindered large-scale operations by Falcon units, who simply treat such large events as a large series of individual duels. This style of combat lies at the heart of Falcon offensive operations, leading to the strategy known as the nathalculor-the strike of the unswerving sword. Rejecting the deception and maneuvering of Inner Sphere warfare, the nathaculor is direct, straightforward assault. The Falcons' primary objectives are the defender's command, control, and communication assets, and Falcon warriors will persistently drive for such targets. If such positons are not viable targets, the warriors will move to eliminate the most significant concentration of enemy troops.

Note that their preferred way of fighting a large battle involves no combined unit tactics, no bombing, no artillery, no maneuvring of any kind except for a high speed full on assault. And this is one of the militarily dominant Clans that crushed all comers to secure one of the two most valuable invasion corridors. Even in Grand Melees, the Falcons prefer to duel, which is consistent with them being reluctant to concentrate fire under most circumstances.

Now, let's take a look at those deviant Steel Vipers, who don't fit easily into the Warden/Crusader divide and are known to practice mass combat tactics.

Warden Clans page 140

They Steel Vipers attitude to warfare varies depending on the circumstances.

And people wonder why I like these guys.

Against respected Clan forces, we staunchly adhere to the rules of zellbrigen. Against those we regard as dishonorable-for example the troops of the Inner Sphere-or a mortal enemy such as the Jade Falcons, our warriors may abandon these principles and do whatever is necessary for victory.

This is an important bit. They recognize that "fighting dirty" by Clan standards is more effective and will do it when necessary.

This pragmatism and adaptability has earn our Clan many of its successes over the centuries.

Pragmatism and adaptability are not encouraged by the Clan way. Confinement to rigid social roles and laws and customs derived from the beginning of the Clans is the proper Clan way. The Vipers are unusual doing this, although it clearly pays off for them.

One should mention that the Steel Vipers had an unimpressive progress in the Golden Century, their custom omnimech designs don't have XL engines, they have a strong anti-Freebirth bias, their politics are isoloationist, and their PGCs don't field elementals. Their Touman was about average sized and slightly underweight. Despite these disadvantages they managed to secure reserve status and regularly beat the snot out of their Clan enemies.

What's notable here is that both Clans know they could employ more effective tactics, even things as simple as bombing the enemy with aerospace fighter and artillery or massing fire, but often won't. The Steel Vipers are exceptional in being willing to do so under far more circumstances and actually investing time and resources in practicing that type of warfare.

In the interest of fairness I will mention that Bloodspirit will also do so in defence of their homeworld (hell, they'll even arm members of other castes in that case) and Ice Hellion with their small, light weight Touman will practice pack tactics against heavier units. That means less than 25% of the Clans will use group combat tactics on a semi-regular basis and then under restricted circumstances. The remaining 75+% has to be dragged into it.

[PainRack]

Except that's a strawman of my position. The Clans will only deploy artillery under circumstances where single combat is extremely impractical, like attacking a fortress or attacking dropships (which are present) or covering the retreat of their forces after zellbrigen has gone out the window and not doing so may see them annihilated (also happening). That's happening. If you would confine yourself to arguing against points I actually make you might get somewhere, but knocking down strawmen versions of my arguments doesn't impress.

Its called Shifting the goalposts. Clarifying what you meant is one thing, but saying that I misunderstood what you say is ANOTHER.

The Clans will use artillery, against dug in opponents.

Painrack, I said the Clanners will use artillery against fortresses. Saying they hit an LZ with massively armoured and armed dropships acting as assault transports against which single combat is impossible while covering a retreat doesn't contradict that

Fortresses, dug in opponents. Geez. Guess why I said you were wrong?

You've shown no evidence that the Jade Falcons initiated mass combat on Tuakayid.

Geez. Because I DIDN"T say Jade Falcons started mass combat. Indeed, my entire earlier POINT was that a Grand Meelee DIDN"T start on Tukayyid when Jade Falcon USED ARTILLERY.

Just to clarify. We both know the Clans prefer single combat and this is a constraint on their tactical doctrine. However, the contention is on the OTHER aspects. Combined arms. Maneveur. Tactics. Artillery.
Even combined fire when the Clans believe it neccessary. THAT is my contention. That somehow, you believe that it requires a Grand Meelee for the Clans to use supporting arms and other tactics.

Note that their preferred way of fighting a large battle involves no combined unit tactics, no bombing, no artillery, no maneuvring of any kind except for a high speed full on assault. And this is one of the militarily dominant Clans that crushed all comers to secure one of the two most valuable invasion corridors. Even in Grand Melees, the Falcons prefer to duel, which is consistent with them being reluctant to concentrate fire under most circumstances.

How on God green earth did you turn a treatise about how the Clans issue duelling in mass combat, targeting command & control targets then large bodies of units into the Clans don't use bombing, maneveuring and etc? Pray tell, what about the ACTUAL incidents of Falcons USING maneveur, outflanking tactics and even Enfilidating fire? Not to mention bombing, artillery and etc?

Now, let's take a look at those deviant Steel Vipers, who don't fit easily into the Warden/Crusader divide and are known to practice mass combat tactics.

Oh wait, perhaps we SHOULD look at the Battle of Tukayyid sourcebook where it states that Steel Viper sticked closely to zelbringen and even used bidding to restrict forces. Of course, we know how rapidly THAT changed when they used Viper Coil and Maw against the Guard forces...... not that that worked because the Guards used artillery to foil such tactics.

Geez. Guess it shows that zelbingen is not as binding and rigid a tactical codex as you claim it is. The battle of tukayyid outright states that Steel Vipers was amongst the MOST rigidly adherent to Zelbringen in that battle. Since we know exactly HOW rigid they adhered to it(the abandoning of single combat via Viper Coil), its obvious the Clans weren't fanatical about sticking to the whole shebang of zelbringen which involves bidding, restricted forces and single combat.

The Jade Falcons while adhering to single combat ignores other conventions such as bidding and limited force during the battle.

And of course, there exists literally NO evidence to support your contention that zelbringen forbids the Clans to use combined arms, artillery or intergrated aerospace units. Indeed, we KEEP seeing the use of such tactics and support even in battles against Clan opponents.