A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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Ahriman238
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Ahriman238 »

Finally finished. Been an interesting trip, and I'll try and put together a proper conclusion to it. For now here are the last of my data points.

ACS:
He waited until the two suits were in position and had lined up the distant targets. At the base of the hill, about two thousand meters away, was a cluster of concrete stumps that revealed little more than that there had once been buildings there. It was around those ruins that most of the God Kings were clumped but even two thousand meters was was a simple shot with AID targeting systems. He checked that they had designated their targets then lined up on his first and snuggled the rifle, unnecessarily, into his shoulder.
ACS rifles, like the grav-pistol in Hymn, can easily hit targets 2 km distant. Now the rifle isn’t attached to the arm?
“Missed the power box, huh?" Duncan said. "Your targeting systems won't pull those up. You have to specifically designate it."

"How do you do that?" Race asked as a storm of 3mm rounds slammed into the concrete behind which he was sheltering.

"Here, I'll show you," Duncan replied, activating a command so that Race could watch as he brought up the menu.

"Uh, if you could just tell me, sir?" Race said, sliding backwards down the hill and scrabbling sideways. "We're kind of busy."

"First you bring up the menu for secondary targeting parameter," Duncan replied, ignoring the private's response and a series of HVMs that hammered below his position. "Then choose 'power systems.' Once you have that you can see that the gun targeting karat automatically starts prioritizing not just the God Kings but the power crystals in their storage compartment under the God Kings. Then you just stroke the firing button," he finished, sending a needle burst of teardrops through the power system of an approaching Kessentai and detonating the God King's saucer. "You'll notice that it gives a pop-up reading of power levels as well, and if you have the time you can use those to fire on the better-charged saucers, giving you more bang for your buck."
ACS uses a lot of automatic targeting, the user can designate target priorities. ACS sensors can detect the precise power levels of a tenar.
"Hmmph," O'Neal grunted, looking at the terawatt laser. The weapons had been common in the early days of the war but had been dropped out of service within the first couple of years. They were, however, remarkable anti-lander systems, at least against Lampreys and unsuspecting C-Decs. So it would probably work in this instance. "And why were you keeping it a secret?"

-snip
"Oh, it's okay," Mike waved. "Do you know why these were removed from service?" he asked.

"No, sir," Tommy said. "It never made any sense to me."

"Well, it won't affect anything in this battle," the battalion commander replied. "I'll just head back to the battalion hole. Good luck, Lieutenant. Good shooting."

-snip-

Mike slithered into the hole that had been dug out for the battalion headquarters just as the first lander crested the ridge.

"Why isn't he having his suits rearm?" Stewart snapped.

"Oh, he's got a better idea," Mike said with a chuckle. "I had a terawatt laser in the cache."

"And he's going to use it?" the battalion S-2 said.

"Looks like it. Should be fun to watch. Preferably from a safe distance."
That’s not ominous at all.
Tommy crouched behind the laser and targeted the first C-Dec cresting the ridge. This was going to be tight.

The holographic sight showed interior and exterior targets as well as the antimatter containment system. Tommy deliberately avoided that, firing the beam along a vector to penetrate on a weak point and enter the battlecruiser's engine room.

The weapon spat a beam of coherent purple light just as the C-Dec opened fire with the first weapon that bore, an anti-ship plasma weapon. The ship's fire missed the battalion, striking north of it on the graded roadbed laid down by the Posleen and digging out a crater the size of a house.

The weapon was a poorly controlled nuclear reaction that was captured between massive electromagnetic fields and converted to pure photons. The beam itself was rated in gigajoules per second and cut through the heavy armor of the Posleen ship like tissue paper. It lanced through interior bulkheads and into the engineering compartment, destroying the antigravity system and removing power to most of the external weaponry. Denied its antigravity support, the cruiser lurched and dropped through the air.
So, the retired laser system is, in fact, a perfectly valid anti-lander platform, in skilled hands capable of one-shoting a C-Dec as well as any SheVa. Perfect. Terawatt laser easily breaches Posleen ship armor. And Terawatt lasers are used by Posleen ships as secondary weapons.
The cruiser staggered and then started to drop, fast, and he knew there was nothing he could do.

The ship fell straight down at thirty two feet per second per second and impacted on the top of the ridgeline, only fifteen meters from his position and, fortunately, on the Posleen side of the ridge. Then it started to roll.

The impact of the multiton ship had flipped all three suits into the air and they fell back with a couple of bounces. But Duncan was up on the ridge again almost immediately. This he wanted to see.
Impact of C-Dec on ground 15 meters away enough to knock ACS into the air. Which is only a mild annoyance to the suits. Of course, a C-Dec is a dodecahedron with each facet roughly 500 meters across…
I actually had to look up how to calculate a dodecahedron’s volume, but I don’t think I can do it with the formula given. I figure each face to be a pentagon 403,119 square meters in area. So I should be able to figure it as twelve pyramids, using the face as the base, but what how to find what to plug in for height?
Tommy swung the laser onto the leftmost Lamprey, which was a tad higher and had a better shot at the battalion. It had already opened fire with one of the heavy lasers on one of its five facets and the line of fire was wiggling randomly across the ground but in the general direction of the battalion command post.

In this case Sunday didn't target quite so carefully; the ship was farther away and if the antimatter containment system detonated it wouldn't disturb things quite as much.

The purple laser flashed out again, digging into the side of the ship in a flash of silver fire and penetrating deep into its vitals. The shot missed the containment system but cut the feeds from it to the engine. Once again the ship stopped and dropped like a stone. Some of the Posleen in both ships would be alive but they were relatively unimportant compared to stopping the ships themselves.
Same Terawatt laser easily kills a Lamprey.
"Shit," Tommy muttered, as he targeted the third ship. This ship had learned from its predecessors and tried to jink aside, spreading the fire. The terawatt laser was not, however, like the lighter grav-guns. They had only a fraction of the power available to the laser. It scythed into the third ship, clawing through crew quarters and the command bridge. For that matter, the ship pilot had not had significant training in flight at such low levels. The Posleen ships, by and large, managed their operations on automatic, so manual flight was something for which very few Posleen were trained or prepared. And it was evident in this case as the ship, accelerating sideways to avoid the laser, slammed into Black Rock Mountain and bounced backwards, hard, into the very laser it was trying to avoid.

In this case it was unclear if it was the laser fire or the sudden impact, but the third ship stopped, droppped and rolled down the hill and impacted with the C-Dec, where the two of them almost entirely blocked the narrow pass.
2 Lampreys and a C-Dec, in case anyone’s counting. That right there gives the laser a better success rate than the PDFs, and an entire company of Reapers. Actually that sets it on a plateau of anti-lander achievement somewhere below Bun-Bun but a bit above every other SheVa we’ve seen. Why the hell were these things not mass-produced and generally deployed?
The "little problem" with the terawatt laser had been discovered within a year of its actual fielding in combat. The weapon was, as previously noted, a poorly contained nuclear explosion. Anti-hydrogen was injected, in carefully measured doses, into a lasing chamber filled with argon gas. The anti-hydrogen, opposite of real matter, impacted with argon and immediately converted itself and some of the argon into pure energy.

This energy release was captured by other argon atoms and when they released the energy it was as photons of light. These photons were then captured and held until a peak pressure was reached when they were released.

All of this happened in a bare nanosecond, managed by vibrating magnetic fields that drew their power from the same reaction.

The same laser, to an extent, was used shipboard and in space fighters. In both cases it was a regarded with awe and respect, for the barely chained sun at its heart was as much a danger to the ship as to the enemy. And so, in the case of the ships and the fighters, massive secondary fields ensured that the slightest slip on the part of the primary fields meant that the system simply got out of alignment for a moment. Perhaps the weapon would "hiccup." But that was all.

On the ground-mount version, however, these secondary systems were unavailable. And thus, when in a brief moment of chaos the power levels in the lasing cavity peaked over the maximum rated, or posssible, containment levels of the magnetic fields, the highly excited argon, and a bit of still unconverted anti-hydrogen, escaped the confinement. And proceeded to destroy the weapon. Letting all the rest of the highly excited argon out in a manner that was quite catastrophic.

One second Tommy was firing the laser and the next moment he was flying through the air. Well, not "flying" so much as hurtling uncontrollably. Once again his sensors were overwelmed but what he managed to read in the maelstrom and under the G forces that were slipping through the compensators indicated that the external temperature, while dropping rapidly, was pretty similar to that found in the photosphere of a star.
Oh. That’s why. Nevermind then. I still see it as being useful enough to justify the risk, see how much better it worked than the Reaper weapons? But probably a weapon for specialists, rather than every grunt who can pass basic.
The Posleen in the front rank weren't even firing anymore, just hurtling forward, their blades raised. The monomolecular edge could not penetrate the Indowy-forged armor with one strike, but as chop after chop descended on it the armor eventually gave way and the human within was hacked to death.
Now the armor resists Posleen blades, where before it didn’t. Not that it makes a huge difference to the story, an ACS trooper who gets stormed is still going to die in a messy and painful manner, it’s just another little inconsistency that bugs me.
Unlike Sunday, Mike had been out of the hole in the Posleen mass when the SheVa antimatter went off and there wasn't much he could do. So for the second time in his life he ended up in the path of a nuclear explosion. This time, at least, he had a moment's warning and instead of trying to grab dirt, which was probably futile, he hopped upward and tucked into a ball wondering where he'd land.
The blast-front picked him up and lofted him south and upward. He felt a brief glance off of something very hard; it bruised him despite the undergel and hard-driven inertial compensators. But after that there was, as such, nothing but air.

His sensors were still off-line but he eventually sensed that the blast-front was reducing and he tracked out into what would have been a free-fall position if he was, in fact, free-falling. He got some control over the inertials and used it to stabilize his flight. But since his externals were still reading over a thousand degrees centigrade, getting any coherent data on his location was quite impossible.

Finally the immense power of the nuclear explosion began to dissipate and the return wave came in, catching him and tossing him back, but not as far.

In all he was airborne, or nuke-borne as the case might be, for less than fifteen seconds. It only felt like an eternity. And then he saw open air.
Mike gets nuked. Again. While in the air. Again. He’s thrown several miles by the force of the blast. Again. Why do we care again? But this time he survives a 100 KT Area Denial weapon, granted in his one-off super suit.

Posleen:
He stepped off of his tenar and walked down the lines of his oolt, checking the oolt'os' weapons. All of them had the skills to handle the devices, but they had only recently been upgraded and he wished to ensure that all was well. Instead of the shotguns and light railguns they had sported only a day before, each of the oolt'os was armed with a plasma cannon or hypervelocity missile launcher. He had been surprised at the apparent generosity of the warleaders, but when he was told the reason it made sense.
Be vewwy, vewwy quiet. We’re hunting wabbits. Is it wrong of me to be sort of rooting for the Posleen by this point? They’re just so much more entertaining than the human characters.
Posleen had as much trouble with a flank attack as humans. The oolt'os could care less; they shot where they were told to shoot. But the Kessentai were as susceptible to surprise as humans, perhaps more so. And physically moving the aim-point of the oolt'os was more difficult than moving that of humans; when packed groups of oolt'os tried to turn, simultaneously, they actually tended to fall over.
Funny mental image of a group of tightly packed Posleen trying to pull an ‘about face!’ Posleen somewhat slower to react to flank attacks than us.
"I know," the commander replied. "It's just so . . . so asinine. Eventually they'll force their way through. But we've killed, how many? A hundred thousand? Two hundred thousand? A million? And they just keep coming."

"They always do," Stewart pointed out, turning his suit to face the commander.

"Almost always," Mike replied. "This time I'm really surprised. Generally even the Posleen give up after a few million dead on one patch of ground."
The point at which Posleen typically give up.
"How many have we lost?" Tulo'stenaloor snarled. "Four million here and in the valley?"
"Four point three as of last count," the essthree replied.
The actual number of Posleen Mike’s battalion has killed so far.
"Apparently good sense is contagious," he muttered; the Posleen were building a road.
It wasn't much of a road and they weren't going it very well. But they were clearing away rubble and digging into the hillside, cutting a serpentine path up the hills that, otherwise, were impossible for them to scale. They had barely started, though, so there was plenty of time to deal with it.
Posleen using engineering in battle.
It would have gone faster with human equipment, much less Posleen, but there was none locally—any that had existed had been destroyed by the recent blasts—and even if there were, there was not one of the local Kessentai who had the skills to use it. So they had to make the road the old fashioned, and slow, way. Fortunately there were some of the oolt'os who had that as a skill and they were leading the way, skillfully using the rubble from the hill to reinforce the low places and create a narrow path.

Given time, and a few skilled stone-worker oolt'os, they could create a road that would last for a thousand revolutions of the sun. But that would be unnecessary. All that the local force needed was enough breadth to run their oolt up the hill and then take the humans from the rear.
Some Posleen normals can be used as skilled labor, depending on their bloodline and thus genetic memory. Stone-working Posleen can make a ‘thousand-year road.’
Orostan looked over at the Kenellai that was running the resupply effort. "How is the work progressing?"

"The tunnels will be completed soon, oolt'ondai. After that perhaps twelve hours to complete the basic factory."

"Too long," he growled, looking around at the massed oolt'os and Kessentai. "We'll be out of ammunition and thresh by then."
Construction of an underground factory in enemy territory. Perhaps to make reloads? More skilled labor from the Posleen.

The saucer-shaped craft of the Posleen God Kings used a crystal matrix power storage system that was highly efficient; it was, in fact, virtually identical to the system used in armored combat suits. But while it was capable of storing enormous power in a very small space, that power was also barely controlled; if the crystalline matrix was disturbed it started a chain-reaction uncontrolled energy release. Which is another way of saying "massive explosion." In the case of Panoratar's half-charged system, it was the equivalent of a couple of hundred pounds of TNT. And then there was the shrapnel from the disintegrating tenar.

The blast slapped outwards and smashed the surrounding God Kings, along with all their most elite normals, to the ground, killing most of them and rendering all the tenar out of commission.
Interesting that the tenar and ACS use similar power storage, yet the ACS are not an explosion risk. Probably just one area where the Galactics are a trifle more advanced. Still relatively consistent yields for tenar explosions.
"This is a widely gathered force," he pointed out, bringing up the bows of the tenar in high relief. "Note the rounding. We've got two that are almost pointed, one that is rounded almost into a semicircle and one that is halfway in between. This sort of difference has been noted before in the saucers, called tenar by the Posleen, and in weapons design up to the design of the landers. There seem to be four or five broad styles."

Poole ducked down below the concrete and scuttled sideways again, trying not to giggle hysterically at the lecture. "You know, sir, this is just the right time for a lecture on distinctive Posleen styles in saucer design."

"What causes the style difference?" Race asked with a laugh.

"Nobody really knows," Duncan said. "But it's interesting to note that while our enemy seems like formless waves of one-ness, they do have some individual and group differences. Probably it's the difference between Ford and Chevy, but they do have differences. At least the leadership, the Kessentai."
There are differences in the individual hardware used by some Posleen.
The moon had set and the night would have been pitch black to humans. It was quite dark to the host as well, but their eyes expanded to drink in what light there was from the stars glittering overhead. The skies had cleared and the temperatures dropped, but as with most physical conditions that was of little interest to the Po'oslena'ar; they could survive temperatures that would kill an unprotected human.

Snow was bad not so much for the cold or the way it slowed them but because it meant little to forage. Away from their bases the Po'oslena'ar generally depended upon forage for food. They were designed for pure efficiency and could move for days on the food that a human would need for one. Eventually this caught up with them and they would have to feed, but in the meantime they would keep going.

His oolt had not properly fed in two days and it would probably be another day before he let them rummage in their food bags. They had been given a few scraps of flesh from the human thresh and more lately from the battles over the mountains, but it was not enough to build them back up. With luck the coming battle would go to them and then there would be much thresh upon which to feed.
Posleen more resistant to temperature extremes than humans, and actually need to eat less often. Of course, since their idea of logistics is basically to save a bit for later, in a carry-on bag, they still don’t do well in locations without a lot of forage.
The area effect round tracked straight and true to a point two thousand meters above an imaginary line between the C-Decs and then detonated.

The ships were interstellar battle cruisers as well as transports for the Posleen. And under normal circumstances a 100 KT round detonating 2000 meters away would have been shrugged off. In vacuum. Between planets.

In this case, however, it was not in vacuum and it was not between planets except by the widest description thereof. And all of the differences came into play.

The shock wave from the explosion slapped downward, hurling the ships aside. If the violent acceleration from the nuclear-driven hurricane of wind were not enough to defeat them, the sudden stop as they slammed into the unyielding ground did the trick. Subjected to forces they were not designed to withstand, the two ships hit the ground, crunched, bounced, and rolled to a stop, one just east of the Cullasaja Bridge and the other on top of the West Franklin Wal-Mart.
In space, a 100 KT explosion is nothing to the Posleen, in atmosphere it’s a different story.


Other/Misc:
"For what we are about to receive . . ." Glennis muttered as she hit the seat switch and dropped into the belly of the tank. The vehicle shuddered and the temperature jumped noticeably as a plasma round glanced off the front glacis plate. A moment later an HVM round ripped her hatch cover away into the night and filled the interior with reflected searing white light and heat. But by then the gunner had slewed the main gun on target and opened up with main and coaxial.

The Abrams Main Battle Tank was originally designed for the sole purpose of killing other tanks, almost assuredly Soviet and ex-Soviet designs. It had advanced composite armor, a quick-firing, stabilized 120mm main gun, sophisticated targeting systems, nuclear, biological and chemical protection and an amazing turn of speed supplied by its Lycomings jet-turbine engine. Furthermore, on battlefields across the globe, it had proven itself the finest machine in the world for that task, able to both out-fight and outmaneuver any other tank on the planet, seventy plus tons of fast-rolling incredibly deadly meanness. But with the coming of the Posleen, changes in design were inevitable; the Posleen didn't really have anything worth hitting with a 120mm depleted uranium dart. Or, if they did, it was too large to care about being scratched by an Abrams.
A little love for the Abrams. Posleen ships laugh at 120mm AT rounds.
However, the base tank was the finest piece of war machinery ever designed and it seemed a shame to simply throw all that engineering away. At first, when they turned out to be highly vulnerable to plasma and even 3mm railgun fire, the tanks seemed doomed. But technology came to their aid in the form of new, and lighter, armor materials. The M-1A4's turret and primary frontal armor was a layer of battle-steel, room-temperature superconductor, nano-tube composite and synthetic sapphire threading. The combination meant that frontally it could shed off the fire of anything but a direct and unlucky HVM hit.

From the side it was not so well armored but if the Posleen were on your flank you were screwing up anyway.

To reduce the possibility of being flanked, and to deal with the main problem of the Posleen, the fact that there were just way too many of them, the gunnery of the tanks was modified. On either side of the turret "add-on" weapons were installed. These were 25mm cannons like the main gun of a Bradley, but where a Bradley had one gun the Abrams were mounted with first two, one on either side, then four and finally eight. The .50 caliber TC gun was replaced with a 7.62 Gatling gun capable of hurling 8000 rounds a minute and the "coaxial" 7.62 machine gun mounted alongside the main gun was switched out for another. Even excepting their main gun, the "A4" Abrams could hurl an amazing mass of lead.

The main gun, however, remained a problem. It seemed a shame to pull the weapon, since it was about as good as it got from a cannon perspective. Finally, it was decided to leave the cannon in place and simply change the ammo mix. The ammo bin still carried a few "silver bullets" for old time's sake, but the majority of the rounds stored in an A4 were canister.

Unlike the complex depleted uranium or High Explosive Anti-Tank rounds, canister was simplicity in itself; in effect it was a giant shotgun shell. Each round held 2000 flechettes packed in ahead of a powerful firing charge.
The heavily armored Abrams loaded down with machine guns and canister for the cannon. Seriously, there are 8 machine guns on the thing.
The Long Wall had been laboriously constructed in the years between the first scattered landings and the last major wave. It traveled, more or less, the entire length of the eastern Continental Divide but in this little patch of hell it was a shambles. At passes and other areas that might be struck by heavy Posleen attacks it was built up into modern fortresses of concrete and steel bristling with weaponry. Everywhere else along its length it was about twenty feet high and made out of reinforced concrete with a reinforcing "foot" on the inner side. And, despite the protests of environmentalists, it had no openings. On the inside of the wall was a road, a track really, that had been carved across the entire eastern U.S. Along this wall, when there wasn't a murthering great battle going on, patrols would crawl along, looking over the wall from time to time to make sure the Posleen weren't sneaking up the far side.
The Wall. Some of those less secure areas sound, well, pretty insecure.
"Yes, ma'am, it is," he said, holding out two gel-caps. "Rad-Off. It's not going to keep you alive, but it will stretch things out."

Glennis smiled tightly, her jaw working at the words. "Is anything going to keep me alive?"
"If we can get you air evac to a Galactic regen tank," Kilzer said. "I'm not an expert in this sort of thing, but from these readings I'd say in a couple more hours the damage will be pretty irreversible. And the nearest regen tank I know of is in Asheville, which, under current conditions, would take about three hours to reach."
Galactic regen can repair massive radiation damage.
In the distance a wave of fire seemed to leap from the ground as fireball after fireball erupted into the sky. It was clear that kinetic energy weapons were taking out every single Posleen ship and settlement for as far as the eye could see. And undoubtedly beyond. Around the whole globe.

Mike looked up and half shook his head as a line of shuttlecraft, seeming half air and half matter, dropped out of the sky. Troopers began spouting from the sides, dropping on pillars of fire then assembling at impossible speed. Their suits, like the ships, seemed only half there, as if one with the land and sky. And on his sensors they didn't appear at all. The air was filled with music and he shook his head and laughed hysterically again as the strains of "Ride of the Valkyries" poured through the air.
The cavalry arrives, orbital supremacy is quickly established, Posleen ships on the ground are found and wiped out by KE impactors from orbit, and the ACS sent off-world handles the mopping up. Think how many lives could have been spared if they’d made it a year ago, or just a week.
"You don't need that," Wendy said, looking at the tank and suddenly seeing it as old technology. It was practically magic to most people, able to regrow limbs and heal almost any wound short of death.
Galacitc regen again, can save one from most anything short of immediate death, regrow limbs etc.


SheVa:
The giant tank, it must be one of the SheVa guns she had seen on TV, ground up to within a few dozen yards of the Posleen and then just stopped. It sat there for what seemed like forever and then a door opened in the base, flooding white light down onto the ground. An elevator dropped out of the door and all the way to the ground then opened and a single human stepped out. He was wearing a trenchcoat and sunglasses and had a plasma rifle cradled in his arms, muzzle down.
One of the SheVa crew has a plasma gun. No explanation, no other mention, just ‘yeah this guy got out of the tank and stared down a God-king, by the way he had a plasma gun.’
"O ye of little faith," Kilzer said. He had a multicolored three-dimensional view of the terrain up on his display and now tapped a control to bring sections of it up on Pruitt's targeting system. "Okay, Pruitt, load up a penetrator."

Pruitt looked at the screen and shuddered. "You're joking, right?"

"Nope," Kilzer said, tapping his keyboard again and bringing up a set of fifteen target points on the mountainside. "Okay, it's going to be an expensive road. But we'll have a road. And I won't have to go skiing with you."

Pruitt looked over at the colonel, who had a pensive expression on his face. "Colonel?"

"Is this going to work, Kilzer?" the officer temporized. "The rounds aren't that big . . ."

Kilzer's laugh was deep and infectious. "Oh, Lord, that's a good one, sir!" he chuckled. "You've obviously been in SheVa combat too long, sir. They're TEN KILOTON rounds! That's the equivalent of ten thousand tons of TNT, sir. Twenty million pounds of explosives!"
"Hmm . . ." After a moment Mitchell grinned and chuckled in return. "You're right. My version of what is a 'small' explosion has gotten sort of skewed. Go on."

"Each of them is going to vaporize a big chunk of North Carolina rock, sir," the tech rep pointed out. "And the rock around it is going to settle in rubble. Fifteen shots, by my calculations, will reduce the ridgeline by only two hundred feet or so. But that two hundred feet is going to take out the steepest portions and lay down a ramp—a steep ramp, admittedly—on both sides."
SheVa collapsing a mountain, in lieu of going over or around.
Each of the previous rounds had, in fact, made a very solid impression. The antimatter explosion had vaporized a sizable chunk of rock, a sphere ranging from fifty to a hundred meters in diameter. But the refractory material above the explosions had managed to survive and each of the explosions was widely enough spaced that there were ersatz "pillars" between the newly wrought, extremely hot, slightly glowing, caves in the pass's heart.

The eleventh round, however, penetrated rock that had already been fractured by previous rounds and the impact of the ten kiloton blast propagated along the lightly supported bridge of rock across the top of the pass. With, literally, earthshattering results.
SheVa nukes when fired deep underground vaporize a spherical mass of stone, but tend to look unimpressive from the surface.
Look, Gl . . . Major, we can get them out. After we finish the shots and open up the pass. As long as we can get a chain around anything, the SheVa will yank them out like a cork."
Well, I suppose any engine that can move a SheVa won’t have any problem yanking an Abrams out from under a few tons of soil.
"There's more coming from the Asheville reserves," Mitchell said. "We'll have two full loads of penetrator and six area denial after we shoot fifteen."
Reloads. They’ve fired off the ones they got from the destroyed SheVa, so these must have come in the blimp with the CONTAC team.
He wasn't particularly worried about the chain breaking; it was the same design used to anchor aircraft carriers and had been adapted for SheVa recoveries. An Abrams tank, even covered in rubble, was not even in the same country much less league.
There’s an aircraft carrier anchor chain on each SheVa to be used as a tow cable, in the event they need to recover another SheVa.
Plate patches were not the standard six-inch steel but ranged from one to three inches.
Spares for repairing the armor.
The plate had been cut into a long rectangle, exactly nine point four two three meters in length, by one of the hull-plate cutters. The devices used a chemical-pumped laser that had the ability, among other things, to cut to very precise depths and angles. Which was useful when, for example, a section of hull abutting a nuclear reactor had to be cut away.

After cutting the section of plate, the same vehicle had then opened up a six by six meter hole in the side of the SheVa, then wandered off to find other work. There was plenty to do.
Laser cutting torch.
He waited while the fire-suppression crew was called in and made notes. The crew consisted of two blower teams and a safety supervisor. Because the SheVa repair brigade often had to operate under pressure and in less than safe conditions they had developed techniques to handle things like welding around explosive materials.

As the laser welders cut through the materials, the fire team took care of secondary effects. The hydraulic fluid had a high vaporization temperature but with enough heat it would first vaporize and then combust. Generally these were small, smoky fires that were easily put out, but a few were larger and more energetic. The CO2 extinguishers, however, were able to handle both types of fire with relative ease.
CONTAC safety protocols.
"What Paul proposes," Garcia continued with a glare at the warrant officer, "is to wrap a piece of steel around it with the underside coated by welding explosives then set those off. He intends to do the wrapping by applying C-4 in a pattern to the outer side of the steel and setting that off. As the metal settles in place a detonator will trigger the weld.

"This will do one of two things. It will work, to an extent, giving the gun some shots, I'm not sure how many, or it will totally destroy the shock. It could neither work, nor destroy the shock. But the safe bet is on 'either or.' "
The improvised patch for the damaged shock absorber. Naturally it goes off without a hitch. Besides all the fire that is. And it eventually springs a leak.
"We've got four minutes of water," Kilzer said. "We found a community water supply but it only had forty thousand gallons. After that's gone, we're open to plasma fire."
Again, the squirt gun uses about 10,000 gallons a minute, or 167 gallons a second. That would be sprayed out in such a way as to cover a 50 x 100 meter square, and probably extending out wards some ways, the point after all is to fill the air immediately before the SheVa with water. And this will be an effective obstacle to plasma fire?
Keeping up was no trouble, however, because with the loss of power from three reactors the SheVa was limited to a maximum speed of about forty kilometers per hour. Keeping out of the spray of mildly radioactive water and mud from its tracks was somewhat more difficult.
40 kph (25 mph) top speed from Bun-Bun with half its reactors dead. Which is actually ¾ the specs.
"Storms are up, the ones that are left." Captain Chan sounded tired over the radio. Her crew had consumed half the IV's in the SheVa and Glenn had had to be evacced. But other than that they were fine. Exhausted, but fine. "Garcia redesigned the reloads so we could have six available each. But we're down to only fifty-three total reloads so I put six on each of the front systems and scattered the rest out. Once those are gone, the nearest are on the road from Knoxville. The long way. We need to shut these guys down soon."
Lot of space for storing reload packs for the Metal Storm turrets.
"It's got the MetalStorms," Bazzett argued. Both of them were ignoring the fact that at any moment an antimatter round could land on their heads. Part of the reason for the four thousand meters minimum range of the SheVa area effect round was that it was notoriously inaccurate at short ranges. Because it was designed for a fifty-plus kilometer range, firing at short ranges meant firing practically straight up in the air. At that angle, it was practically a matter of luck where it would land.

"Sure, but they're just forty millimeters." Utori snapped his weapon back together and took a drink from his camelbak. "It needs some 105s with some small antimatter rounds. Like . . . I dunno a ten KT round, maybe. That would be enough to clear a hilltop. Not a fucking hundred KT, which requires clearing out the whole damned county."
Complaints about the tactical flexibility of the SheVa. SheVa designed to hit ships over 50 km away, well over the horizon even from the top of the turret. Indirect fire at shorter ranges means firing really high and praying for the wind to be going about the right direction and speed.
The 100-kiloton round was heavier than the penetrator. This was due to a carbon-uranium matrix that was designed to armor the potentially dangerous round against stray impacts. The armor, however, fell away after firing, and the round tracked upward and then over at apogee, after which the tracking system lost lock and the round became an unknown actor.
Discarding armor against fire, even while in secure magazines. Might explain some of the sheer weight of the more traditional SheVa rounds.
"Eight rounds loaded," Pruitt said. "Six anti-lander and two of the euphemistically entitled 'area of effect.' Also known as God's Lightbulb and The Big One. And behind us there's a string of tacitly avoided and spread-out vehicles filled with more hellfire and destruction just in case four ain't enough. We've got a half a pack of cigarettes, a tank of gas, it's ten miles to the FP and we've got sunglasses on."
"Yeah! though I WALK though the valley of the shadow of death, I will FEAR no evil!" Pruitt cried as he cycled the gun to "on" and checked the telltales. The hydraulics were still showing yellow, but what the hell. "For I am the baddest bunny in the valley!"
These ones just made me laugh. Yeah, in four books there’s maybe half a dozen jokes I actually laughed at, and a single heart wrenching scene between three nameless characters that appear for all of two paragraphs before death. I cared more for those people than I ever did for Mike, his unit, his father or his daughter.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Ahriman238 »

Okay, I lie. I just wanted to include this snippet from the afterword.
The Posleen War was originally conceived sometime in 1985. There was a glimmer of an idea before that but the major pieces, a technologically inept enemy, "friends" that had many levels to them and a major ground war, came to me while I was on guard duty on a mountain in Sinai.

I had been . . . dissatisfied with some of the other novels that had handled alien invasion. Admittedly, if a space-faring species with faster than light travel wants to take Earth they are probably going to succeed. Once a species "owns" the gravity well, there's not much you can do about it.

Ergo, for humanity to survive (and have the book be much more interesting than "and then all the humans died and the evil aliens lived happily ever after") the aliens have to be hamstrung. But, why would aliens with FTL be incapable of using their full potential?
The few novels that had approached this problem I found unsatisfactory. So, to address this, I developed the Posleen. Starting from certain premises I traced the logic back and as I did many things derived from the logic rather than forcing the logic. Tom Clancy says that the two parts to a successful novel are "what if" and "what's next"?

What if . . . there was a species that . . . (but that would be telling). And what next?

I originally had intended for them to be able to destroy artillery, for example, but the logic of their origins militated against it. Likewise their enormously resistant physiologies. Yes, any oxygen breather will have trouble with cyanide. But at what concentration? And for what duration? But is it possible to design a species that would be highly resistant to truly weird environmental conditions? Planets where most of the atmosphere is gaseous sulphur, planets with semi-sentient and aggressive biospheres? Take every horror planet ever conceived in science fiction and design a race to survive them, and even thrive on them. And, if so, wouldn't they be resistant to any chemical attack?
It sort of makes sense. I agree with the basic idea, not so much with the execution. What’s the line about the enemy needing at once to be too strong and too weak? Strong enough to be a credible threat, but weak enough to be defeated without massive DEM? And if he was looking for a way to make his alien invaders different or more real, why settle on the innumerable hordes of bug/lizards? That’s not terribly new or creative.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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Ahriman238 wrote:[Terawatt laser go bang]

Oh. That’s why. Nevermind then. I still see it as being useful enough to justify the risk, see how much better it worked than the Reaper weapons? But probably a weapon for specialists, rather than every grunt who can pass basic.
Yes. I suspect the terawatt laser or a variant was a Reaper weapon. I also suspect relatively few of them were made, since they're a whole new dimension of 'difficult' over and above the already insanely 'difficult' and overpowered grav rifle. And that a lot of them were lost in action because they exploded like this one.

A weapon which kills three Posleen ships in... oh, maybe a minute or two's sustained fire, tops, and then goes boom has very serious drawbacks. Sure, it can turn the tide of a battle in those minutes by killing those ships, but how in God's name are you going to keep yourself supplied with them if they're difficult to make?
The Posleen in the front rank weren't even firing anymore, just hurtling forward, their blades raised. The monomolecular edge could not penetrate the Indowy-forged armor with one strike, but as chop after chop descended on it the armor eventually gave way and the human within was hacked to death.
Now the armor resists Posleen blades, where before it didn’t. Not that it makes a huge difference to the story, an ACS trooper who gets stormed is still going to die in a messy and painful manner, it’s just another little inconsistency that bugs me.
When was it ever easily chopped through before, as opposed to 'losing suit integrity' after multiple chops?
In space, a 100 KT explosion is nothing to the Posleen, in atmosphere it’s a different story.
This isn't unheard of- all evidence is that nuclear weapons are just plain less effective in atmosphere. Still powerful- you don't want to be within a radius comparable to what the fireball radius would be on the ground- but nowhere near as powerful. Atmosphere tamps nuclear blasts, much as water tamps a torpedo explosion and turns it into something that breaks ten thousand ton ships in half- would break fifty thousand ton battleships, if anyone were daft enough to build them anymore.
The heavily armored Abrams loaded down with machine guns and canister for the cannon. Seriously, there are 8 machine guns on the thing.
This reminds me of a World War Two fighter's machine gun armament. I think it actually makes a perverse kind of sense if the guns are designed to fire spreads of rounds into a Posleen mass, and if the maneuver element of armor is small enough (platoons of about four to five tanks, say) that you might actually run into a Posleen force large or dispersed enough that trying to blow it away with canister before it can get close or shoot you up with their heavy weapons.

If you have a boatload of lighter AFVs with their own machine guns or chain guns, it's not so relevant... but if you don't and still might run into a few thousand Posleen with their heavy weapons, you need all the help you can get.
The Wall. Some of those less secure areas sound, well, pretty insecure.
Part of the problem may just be available manpower and resources- this is happening during waves of Posleen landings, and the global demand for manpower, concrete for fortifications, and so on, is gonna be really high. So for areas the Posleen can't rush in large numbers (say, because they'd have to climb straight up; where the Appalachians are steep they are fucking steep), there's not much point in building a really strong fortification line.

The whole point of the exercise is to prevent them from moving through in mass in the places where they can move in mass, and to stop them from moving in small raiding groups in places where that's the only thing that can move.
SheVa nukes when fired deep underground vaporize a spherical mass of stone, but tend to look unimpressive from the surface.
This is real- if you can penetrate rock deep enough for the nuclear explosion to happen entirely underground, that's exactly what happens.
Well, I suppose any engine that can move a SheVa won’t have any problem yanking an Abrams out from under a few tons of soil.
Would your car, with its ~100 horsepower motor, have trouble pulling a wheelbarrow out from under a waist high pile of gravel? Because the weight difference is about the same. So yeah. Easy.
Again, the squirt gun uses about 10,000 gallons a minute, or 167 gallons a second. That would be sprayed out in such a way as to cover a 50 x 100 meter square, and probably extending out wards some ways, the point after all is to fill the air immediately before the SheVa with water. And this will be an effective obstacle to plasma fire?
Depends. The point here is going to be to create a cloud which a solid projectile can go through, but which will cause a beam to scatter and refract and diffuse until it lacks the intensity to bore holes in thick steel. It'd work like a charm against lasers- you're essentially creating a big cloud of water droplets, which will diffuse light like no one's business. Whether it works against plasma cannon depends on how plasma cannon work- my idea of how to make it work is pretty divergent from the norm in SF.
Keeping up was no trouble, however, because with the loss of power from three reactors the SheVa was limited to a maximum speed of about forty kilometers per hour. Keeping out of the spray of mildly radioactive water and mud from its tracks was somewhat more difficult.
40 kph (25 mph) top speed from Bun-Bun with half its reactors dead. Which is actually ¾ the specs.
Limit on speed may have as much to do with the gearing of whatever's driving the wheels as it does with power supply. Especially since anyone sensible who designs a vehicle powered by six nuclear reactors will allow for a certain amount of redundancy.
These ones just made me laugh. Yeah, in four books there’s maybe half a dozen jokes I actually laughed at, and a single heart wrenching scene between three nameless characters that appear for all of two paragraphs before death.
Who? I'm curious.


Ahriman238 wrote:Okay, I lie. I just wanted to include this snippet from the afterword.
The Posleen War was originally conceived sometime in 1985. There was a glimmer of an idea before that but the major pieces, a technologically inept enemy, "friends" that had many levels to them and a major ground war, came to me while I was on guard duty on a mountain in Sinai.

I had been . . . dissatisfied with some of the other novels that had handled alien invasion. Admittedly, if a space-faring species with faster than light travel wants to take Earth they are probably going to succeed. Once a species "owns" the gravity well, there's not much you can do about it.

Ergo, for humanity to survive (and have the book be much more interesting than "and then all the humans died and the evil aliens lived happily ever after") the aliens have to be hamstrung. But, why would aliens with FTL be incapable of using their full potential?
The few novels that had approached this problem I found unsatisfactory. So, to address this, I developed the Posleen. Starting from certain premises I traced the logic back and as I did many things derived from the logic rather than forcing the logic. Tom Clancy says that the two parts to a successful novel are "what if" and "what's next"?

What if . . . there was a species that . . . (but that would be telling). And what next?

I originally had intended for them to be able to destroy artillery, for example, but the logic of their origins militated against it. Likewise their enormously resistant physiologies. Yes, any oxygen breather will have trouble with cyanide. But at what concentration? And for what duration? But is it possible to design a species that would be highly resistant to truly weird environmental conditions? Planets where most of the atmosphere is gaseous sulphur, planets with semi-sentient and aggressive biospheres? Take every horror planet ever conceived in science fiction and design a race to survive them, and even thrive on them. And, if so, wouldn't they be resistant to any chemical attack?
It sort of makes sense. I agree with the basic idea, not so much with the execution. What’s the line about the enemy needing at once to be too strong and too weak? Strong enough to be a credible threat, but weak enough to be defeated without massive DEM? And if he was looking for a way to make his alien invaders different or more real, why settle on the innumerable hordes of bug/lizards? That’s not terribly new or creative.
I don't think he wanted to make them more real; I think he wanted to make them more realistically defeatable- in which he succeeded, to the point where he had to start making the humans dumber just so the Posleen would be hard to stop. The Posleen aren't a particularly realistic species, in the sense that I doubt even Ringo would expect the galaxy to contain aliens who are at all like that.

What they are, at a bare minimum, is an attempt to take the iconic "barbarian horde" of European lore and collective memory of 19th century colonial wars, and turn it into something that can fit in a science fiction setting. So they're kind of dumb, they pillage a lot, you can't really reason with them because they're more interested in the profit from conquering you than they are in anything you can provide them with, and with the right tactics and equipment you and a handful of jolly good lads can stand up to umpty bajillion of them.

Ultimately, that's the problem- the story of swarming barbarian hordes appeals to some, and not to others, and it's kind of mindless if that's all the story has going for it.

I could go on about the political aspect, about the idea of the redeeming power of violence and about enemies who by definition physically cannot be reasoned with, about what you say about 'strong-weak' opponents and the way fictional opponents with exaggerated strengths and weaknesses play against our perceptions, our suspension of disbelief, and our expectations about real life. But it'd be pretty political, and probably out of place here.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Ahriman238 »

Yes. I suspect the terawatt laser or a variant was a Reaper weapon. I also suspect relatively few of them were made, since they're a whole new dimension of 'difficult' over and above the already insanely 'difficult' and overpowered grav rifle. And that a lot of them were lost in action because they exploded like this one.

A weapon which kills three Posleen ships in... oh, maybe a minute or two's sustained fire, tops, and then goes boom has very serious drawbacks. Sure, it can turn the tide of a battle in those minutes by killing those ships, but how in God's name are you going to keep yourself supplied with them if they're difficult to make?
The ACS terawatt laser is a weapon that was designed alongside the Reaper suit to be used by it. After Diess both existing Reaper weapons were quietly retired and replacements designed. There were also some greunts in standard armor using them as tripod weapons in the first book.

The laser didn't explode till he started using it for continous fire to mow down Posleen infantry. He'd have been fine if he'd quit while he was ahead of the game. Call it 3 shots in about a ten second period, then let it cool down a while?

According to Mike, they ran out of people willing to fire the things, which is why he didn't warn Sunday about overusing it. I think he just felt like being a dick.
When was it ever easily chopped through before, as opposed to 'losing suit integrity' after multiple chops?
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any specific instances of an ACS being explicitly killed with one cut, it's more dialogue to the effect of Posleen blades 'opening up suits like tin-cans' and 'easily carving through everything, including you.'
This isn't unheard of- all evidence is that nuclear weapons are just plain less effective in atmosphere. Still powerful- you don't want to be within a radius comparable to what the fireball radius would be on the ground- but nowhere near as powerful. Atmosphere tamps nuclear blasts, much as water tamps a torpedo explosion and turns it into something that breaks ten thousand ton ships in half- would break fifty thousand ton battleships, if anyone were daft enough to build them anymore.
Yep, still relevant for any space battles though.
This reminds me of a World War Two fighter's machine gun armament. I think it actually makes a perverse kind of sense if the guns are designed to fire spreads of rounds into a Posleen mass, and if the maneuver element of armor is small enough (platoons of about four to five tanks, say) that you might actually run into a Posleen force large or dispersed enough that trying to blow it away with canister before it can get close or shoot you up with their heavy weapons.

If you have a boatload of lighter AFVs with their own machine guns or chain guns, it's not so relevant... but if you don't and still might run into a few thousand Posleen with their heavy weapons, you need all the help you can get.
I don't think I buy it. The tanks should work much better when firing on distant targets, before they can even be seen. Especially given the prevelence of tank-killing weapons among the Posleen. Sure, now they're armored against most of those, but its something that really should have influenced tank tactics and design over the last few years, and become habit to tankers.
Depends. The point here is going to be to create a cloud which a solid projectile can go through, but which will cause a beam to scatter and refract and diffuse until it lacks the intensity to bore holes in thick steel. It'd work like a charm against lasers- you're essentially creating a big cloud of water droplets, which will diffuse light like no one's business. Whether it works against plasma cannon depends on how plasma cannon work- my idea of how to make it work is pretty divergent from the norm in SF.
Now that I can buy, it should work a treat aginst lasers. However, it is specifically installed as a defense against plasma guns, that gives them + 10% odds of survival. It's never really said wheter that ten percent is for surviving a shot, a massive volley, the run to their firing point, or if plasma fire will lose ten percent of it's energy. (that last is a stretch I know, but we're told literally nothing so it may just be possible)
Limit on speed may have as much to do with the gearing of whatever's driving the wheels as it does with power supply. Especially since anyone sensible who designs a vehicle powered by six nuclear reactors will allow for a certain amount of redundancy.
It's designed for 4, but they added 2 to Bun-Bun while repairing it and adding armor, Metal Storm turrets and the squirt gun. Kilzer said it wouldn't give them a higher speed, but it would give them a lot more torque for more mountain climbing, plus a degree of redundancy that most SheVa don't have.
Who? I'm curious.
Well, they're sort of nameless. But in Gust Front a quiet suburban couple set their house's self-destruct and read to their young daughter while waiting for the end. It's a very short passage, but damn me if it isn't more emotional than every character death in the series combined.

I take that as proof that he can write a powerful emotional scene, and for whatever reason chose to do it just the one time. The series could have used more of that and less of showing what Pvt. Buttfuck here and Sgt. Don T. Giveadam there are doing in the process of retreating or trying to blow bridges or something.
I could go on about the political aspect, about the idea of the redeeming power of violence and about enemies who by definition physically cannot be reasoned with, about what you say about 'strong-weak' opponents and the way fictional opponents with exaggerated strengths and weaknesses play against our perceptions, our suspension of disbelief, and our expectations about real life. But it'd be pretty political, and probably out of place here.
Eh, indulge yourself. Now you've made me curious.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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Ahriman238 wrote: The ACS terawatt laser is a weapon that was designed alongside the Reaper suit to be used by it. After Diess both existing Reaper weapons were quietly retired and replacements designed. There were also some greunts in standard armor using them as tripod weapons in the first book.

The laser didn't explode till he started using it for continous fire to mow down Posleen infantry. He'd have been fine if he'd quit while he was ahead of the game. Call it 3 shots in about a ten second period, then let it cool down a while?
Or, if it's too unstable to do even that, mount it on an unmanned chassis, and treat it as a piece of ordnance. There is no freakin' way the thing is less economical than the goddamned Shevas, anyways, even if it's all Galtech.

Of course I do seem to remember there was some political aspect to retiring the laser, but I'm hazy on that.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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Ahriman238 wrote:The laser didn't explode till he started using it for continous fire to mow down Posleen infantry. He'd have been fine if he'd quit while he was ahead of the game. Call it 3 shots in about a ten second period, then let it cool down a while?
It's not a question of overheating, from the description. The problem is that the weapon runs dangerously close to the limit of what it can contain, and some percentage of the time it will overload the containment and go bang.

Imagine a weapon where every time you fire it, you roll a pair of dice, and if you get snake eyes, it explodes. If you don't fire it for very long you're safe, if you fire it repeatedly sooner or later the law of averages catches up with you, but it doesn't really matter how many times you fire- it's about equally likely to fail every time you shoot it.
According to Mike, they ran out of people willing to fire the things, which is why he didn't warn Sunday about overusing it. I think he just felt like being a dick.
Possibly, he also thought those Posleen landers needed killing. If someone's bold/ignorant/crazy enough to fire the dangerous heavy weapon to get rid of the landers, why should he argue with them?
When was it ever easily chopped through before, as opposed to 'losing suit integrity' after multiple chops?
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any specific instances of an ACS being explicitly killed with one cut, it's more dialogue to the effect of Posleen blades 'opening up suits like tin-cans' and 'easily carving through everything, including you.'
Since any ACS trooper who tries to go hand to hand with Posleen is gonna die pretty fast, that may just be a training thing- emphasize that you cannot go mano a mano with the Posleen on account of them having more manos than you do. The fact that it takes them three seconds instead of half a second to cut you to ribbons doesn't really change anything, from a doctrinal standpoing.
This reminds me of a World War Two fighter's machine gun armament. I think it actually makes a perverse kind of sense if the guns are designed to fire spreads of rounds into a Posleen mass, and if the maneuver element of armor is small enough (platoons of about four to five tanks, say) that you might actually run into a Posleen force large or dispersed enough that trying to blow it away with canister before it can get close or shoot you up with their heavy weapons.If you have a boatload of lighter AFVs with their own machine guns or chain guns, it's not so relevant... but if you don't and still might run into a few thousand Posleen with their heavy weapons, you need all the help you can get.
I don't think I buy it. The tanks should work much better when firing on distant targets, before they can even be seen. Especially given the prevelence of tank-killing weapons among the Posleen. Sure, now they're armored against most of those, but its something that really should have influenced tank tactics and design over the last few years, and become habit to tankers.
Yes- but 25mm chain guns can be fired from pretty long range too, especially if you're firing into a mass. They're a lot longer ranged than rifles.
Limit on speed may have as much to do with the gearing of whatever's driving the wheels as it does with power supply. Especially since anyone sensible who designs a vehicle powered by six nuclear reactors will allow for a certain amount of redundancy.
It's designed for 4, but they added 2 to Bun-Bun while repairing it and adding armor, Metal Storm turrets and the squirt gun. Kilzer said it wouldn't give them a higher speed, but it would give them a lot more torque for more mountain climbing, plus a degree of redundancy that most SheVa don't have.
Like I thought. Speed is capped by the design of the motors driving the thing (not the reactors, the giant electric motors they presumably power). Pumping more electricity into the motor won't speed you up, since your transmission can't physically turn faster (with reason- it's very heavy machinery, so it probably isn't all that swift). But it can, as noted, provide more torque and more redundancy.

Which explains how a SheVa designed for four reactors, now with more weight than it was designed for (since they added many, many tons of stuff to Bun-Bun), moves about half as fast as its design speed on three- without all the stuff they piled on, it might be closer to 75% top speed.
I could go on about the political aspect, about the idea of the redeeming power of violence and about enemies who by definition physically cannot be reasoned with, about what you say about 'strong-weak' opponents and the way fictional opponents with exaggerated strengths and weaknesses play against our perceptions, our suspension of disbelief, and our expectations about real life. But it'd be pretty political, and probably out of place here.
Eh, indulge yourself. Now you've made me curious.
Oh boy. I'd have to write an essay. Some time...
PeZook wrote:Or, if it's too unstable to do even that, mount it on an unmanned chassis, and treat it as a piece of ordnance. There is no freakin' way the thing is less economical than the goddamned Shevas, anyways, even if it's all Galtech.
Possible issues:

-The supply may have been artificially limited, like pretty much every other kind of GalTech.

-The problem may have been one of production and resupply- keeping a pipeline of terawatt lasers running as the existing ones were expended.

-The available terawatt lasers may have mostly been handed off to the Navy- space fighters have them, we saw that in Gust Front, and I suspect that the bigger capital ships mentioned elsewhere in the novels use them as part of their secondary/tertiary armament for engaging swarms of Posleen craft after the breakup of a globe. There may not have been all that many of the laser weapons available for the benefit of the infantry.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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Simon_Jester wrote: -The supply may have been artificially limited, like pretty much every other kind of GalTech.

-The problem may have been one of production and resupply- keeping a pipeline of terawatt lasers running as the existing ones were expended.

-The available terawatt lasers may have mostly been handed off to the Navy- space fighters have them, we saw that in Gust Front, and I suspect that the bigger capital ships mentioned elsewhere in the novels use them as part of their secondary/tertiary armament for engaging swarms of Posleen craft after the breakup of a globe. There may not have been all that many of the laser weapons available for the benefit of the infantry.
That's all true, but all of this save no. 3 is an issue with shevas as well (only due to different issues, but the end result is pretty much the same: you get a few absurdly expensive anti-lander platforms, all of which are likely to be lost eventually.

Except you can move the lasers around far more quickly and don't expend enough steel to build a battleships on them :P
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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#1 isn't an issue with SheVas in that they don't use GalTech, just preposterous amounts of terrestrial material- but yeah, seven thousand tons of steel is probably worth more than one GalTech antilander weapon, though it may be a closer call than you'd think.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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Possible issues:

-The supply may have been artificially limited, like pretty much every other kind of GalTech.

-The problem may have been one of production and resupply- keeping a pipeline of terawatt lasers running as the existing ones were expended.

-The available terawatt lasers may have mostly been handed off to the Navy- space fighters have them, we saw that in Gust Front, and I suspect that the bigger capital ships mentioned elsewhere in the novels use them as part of their secondary/tertiary armament for engaging swarms of Posleen craft after the breakup of a globe. There may not have been all that many of the laser weapons available for the benefit of the infantry.
Ah, but the space fighters have a backup containment system that virtually nullifies the risk. Presumably it's too bulky for suit-mounted or tripod guns (even though they already have one containment unit) but a mobile platform could mount one.

Granted, the space fighters are the size of WWII bombers, but I doubt any signifigant portion of that volume is consumed by the containment backups. And if it were? Still much smaller, more nimble and probably cost effective than the SheVa.

Also, the Posleen have similar yield laser weapons that are man portable and do not appear to have this drawback. They could use captured tenar as an anti-lander system. Or give seized TW lasers to the Reapers as a replacement anti-lander weapon. In fact, I'm beginning to wonder how many of the Posleen heavy weapons are a threat to their own ships. It must make long space voyages interesting.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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Ahriman238 wrote:Ah, but the space fighters have a backup containment system that virtually nullifies the risk. Presumably it's too bulky for suit-mounted or tripod guns (even though they already have one containment unit) but a mobile platform could mount one.
Yes- you could probably use one as a tank gun, in a vehicle built to more or less the same scale as a tank (maybe a WWII Maus, but we could build a tank that size if we really wanted).

The fundamental problem I was getting at is that... well. Suppose the planning went like this:

"Okay, the Indowy say they can produce one thousand laser-gun units a year. We have five years before the first wave hits, then we can expect another wave every year after that. One good blast from a laser will cut up a Posleen ship. We can mount them with extra cooling as a two-ton 'light' gun on a vehicle, or build a stripped-down version without the backup containment as a man-portable-ish heavy weapon, but it might spontaneously combust and explode unpredictably."

"Gotcha. Now, IRON MIKE wants some of those laser guns for the ACS..."

"Yeah, and the Chief of Naval Operations and the Air Force Chief of Staff say that IRON MIKE can go fuck himself with a pineapple, we need to be able to meet the Posleen in space."

Result: 90% or more of terawatt laser production is allocated to arming space fighters and providing secondary batteries for 'destroyers,' 'frigates,' 'cruisers,' and 'supermonitors.' The same goes for other heavy GalTech weapons capable of easy kills against Posleen starships. Doctrinally, the spacefaring navy is expected to do most of the heavy lifting when it comes to killing Posleen ships.

The remaining single-digit percentage of terawatt lasers are produced without the secondary cooling systems and offered to ACS as heavy weapons because IRON MIKE wouldn't stop bitching about the shortage of really big guns for ACS.

The net result is that when the war starts in earnest, most of the terawatt lasers are on starships which are either expended piecemeal against the Posleen invasion fleets on Earth, or away from Earth fighting around Galactic planets. Only a handful are on Earth to begin with, and many of them are expended (i.e. fired at the Posleen's ships and troops until they blow up, hopefully not taking their operators with them). The remaining laser weapons represent an ever-decreasing share of the total available, new lasers are not being supplied in quantity because ongoing naval construction demands more lasers all the time, and after a few years of combat, the ACS only have a few hundred of the things left to their name... out of an ACS force of, oh, many thousands. Quite a few of those are off-world with the ACS units operating on Barwhon and elsewhere, not on Earth.

So no wonder the terawatt lasers produced for humanity by GalTech wind up being very rare.
Also, the Posleen have similar yield laser weapons that are man portable and do not appear to have this drawback. They could use captured tenar as an anti-lander system. Or give seized TW lasers to the Reapers as a replacement anti-lander weapon. In fact, I'm beginning to wonder how many of the Posleen heavy weapons are a threat to their own ships. It must make long space voyages interesting.
I suspect only HVMs are even remotely credible in that respect.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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The net result is that when the war starts in earnest, most of the terawatt lasers are on starships which are either expended piecemeal against the Posleen invasion fleets on Earth, or away from Earth fighting around Galactic planets. Only a handful are on Earth to begin with, and many of them are expended (i.e. fired at the Posleen's ships and troops until they blow up, hopefully not taking their operators with them). The remaining laser weapons represent an ever-decreasing share of the total available, new lasers are not being supplied in quantity because ongoing naval construction demands more lasers all the time, and after a few years of combat, the ACS only have a few hundred of the things left to their name... out of an ACS force of, oh, many thousands. Quite a few of those are off-world with the ACS units operating on Barwhon and elsewhere, not on Earth.

So no wonder the terawatt lasers produced for humanity by GalTech wind up being very rare.
Towards the end a couple hundred, or even a few dozen would almost be an oversupply. When the war starts each 'major' nation (US, England, France, Germany, Russia, China, maybe India) has a division (10-15 thousand men) or two of ACS. By Dance/Faire there are 2 battalions (about a thousand men) of ACS in the entire world, both American of course, and not counting the off-world forces that show up at the end. According to IRON MIKE they went through about 4 divisions of bodies getting from point A to point B.

Which really highlights the greatest weakness of the ACS, the supply of new suits can't cover their losses, and training new ACS troops takes time. They have to log around 15 hours of suit time before they stop stumbling around like they're drunk and jumping 20 meters in the air because their leg leg twitched. Mike wanted 1000 hours of suit time before someone was cleared for combat, way back in the Hymn, they ended up with 150 hours of combat sims.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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There’s not a ton to say about the Galactic Federation from a vs. standpoint. First and foremost, because every member of that Federation is a total pacifist unwilling or unable to inflict violence. But then, what other group could the Darhel hope to dominate without being able to use force? In the first book, the Darhel claim that all their members are peaceful, because violent races inevitably wipe themselves out before mastering space-travel. This is clearly a lie in their case at least, though both Humans and Posleen are uplifted. Still, it may work as a vague and general rule.

Socially, the Galactics are very hierarchical, with virtually no limits on what a person can do to his or her subordinates. A locked door, for instance, is only locked until a higher-ranked individual wants to get in. It was suggested in Hymn that the Galactics are going through an overpopulation crisis, but as far as I’ve read, nothing’s come of it. The Galactics lose 72 planets to the Posleen before admitting to desperation and contacting us.

Obviously, the top dogs in the Galactic community are the Darhel. They look sort of like elves, with a bit of wolf thrown in, in that they have sharp teeth and a bit of a muzzle. Once upon a time, they were vicious, bloody galactic conquerors until they lost to the Aldenata and were genetically engineered to be incapable of violence. When they kill another being, or order one killed, or push a button, or think about killing long or hard enough, they go into a coma and die, sometimes with a brief period of homicidal madness first. This is called lintatai. It’s an interestingly fine line, since they can destroy people in all sorts of ways without repercussions, and they’ve proven able, with difficulty, to hire killers as long as they take it slow and never specify the service provided or that they’ll pay for it.

The Darhel control all finance and media in the Galactic Federation, and seem to serve as the de facto government. Anyone wishing to purchase most anything must take a ‘chutee’ or mortgage form the Darhel and basically become their indentured servants. The Darhel also produce the AIDs, the only things the Galactics make via assembly-line. Presumably because they wouldn’t trust anyone else to program the things, and want to make sure each one has the proper backdoors for their use.

The Indowy make up 80% of the Galactic population(and there’re 14 trillion of them, giving us a total population of roughly 17 trillion sapients) but have basically zero wealth or power. They look like waist-high green apes with a sort of bat-like face. They are frequently compared to teddy bears. The Indowy are nonviolent and vegetarian, very communal and selfless almost to the point of masochism. The first sign you’d have that an Indowy was hungry would be him collapsing. They live in cramped quarters with their extended families, but they like it that way. In fact, most Indowy consider humans to be pathological loners. Most Indowy are extremely uncomfortable around ‘carnivores’ like us.

In the first book it was said that Indowy can ‘almost instinctively’ build high technology, and can hand-craft items to finer tolerances than our best factories. Indowy hierarchies are ‘more complex than the Mandarin Court.’ Inodwy careers are chosen for them at around the age of four or five, the most high-paying and prestigious field, along with having the most complicated hierarchy, is ship-building. Each part is hand crafted by a small team, usually a family unit, and signed off by the master of that particular subsystem. A young Indowy starts off with making bolts and other fasteners, as he grows he will learn to build more complex units, and move from one subsystem to another. If he’s really lucky, with experience in every system of a ship and a couple centuries experience under his belt, he may become a master shipwright, and oversee construction. There are said to be about 200 masters in the entire Federation, and they generally produce 5 or 6 ships a year.

If it helps, in the book they compare a starship to a skyscraper, if every beam and bolt were fashioned on-site. In addition to being the builders/producers, the Indowy fill all menial jobs in Galactic society, including acting as personal servants for the Darhel.

Later of course, we learn about the magic nano-assemblers called sohon. It’s not really clear if the guy in the first book didn’t know about sohon, or if sohon itself is just another job, making some of the more complex and improbable parts. It’s possible the Indowy can still do amazing things with just hand-crafting, even probable, given how the Posleen were using Indowy as engineers late in the war.

Speaking of, I’m incredibly jealous of the sohon technology that lets them make all sorts of unlikely materials.

The Himmit are like giant frogs, but really stealthy. During the Posleen invasion, they are the only Galactics able to do recon on occupied worlds. They are the only race to have stealth ships capable of sneaking past Posleen sensors. It’s unclear what role they normally serve in Galactic society, in peacetime, I mean. The Himmit tend to ramble for a very long time if asked an open question. They are alas, cowards who flee at the merest hint of being detected by hostiles. This is said to a biological imperative that they cannot override, but I’m skeptical. In their dealings with others, the Himmit go out of their way to be obviously non-confrontational, probably a part of their “coward” hat, and probably the reason the Darhel are lords over them.

The Tchpth are the Galactics’ scientists and the species we know the least about. They are described sometimes as giant cockroaches and sometimes as crabs. Barwhon was considered a Tchpth world even though they only made up 20% of the population, the rest being Indowy. It is unclear to what extent the Tchpth are complicit in the Darhel running of things. Mad Mike once complained that they only ever talk to Darhel or ‘carefully chosen Tchpth’ and when the US government secretly restarts bio/chem. Warfare research against the Galactics’ advice, a Tchpth shows up to explain why that sort of thing doesn’t work on the Posleen.

From a purely technical military standpoint, they do have very advanced material sciences and AI. They tried to use robots against the Posleen, but the robots rebelled. They had real warships once, but never many and what they had was lost to the Posleen long ago. Now they have freighters converted to fire antimatter missiles (which, in fairness, sound like a bitch to get hit with.) On the ground they have a 'sort of a tank' that fires 'kind of a broad-area energy mine' that can kill a few thousand Posleen at a time. Both space and ground war require them to sacrifice one Darhel button pusher.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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Some updates to your race notes

The Himmit, it's noted in the last book (Hells Fair?) that the Himmit spy on everyone as a matter of course in our brief Himmit PoV section because they are fascinated by everything other races do. Not sciences not working at a job but rather observing other species in motion. A Himmit would follow you around for weeks until it could repeat your routine back to you because it's different from the human it followed the week before. However while they are fascinated by everything there are greater things that draw them mostly involving danger or trouble but not to the Himmit but the subject they are following, thus if a Himmit can follow a human going to a grocery store that's interesting but one climbing a mountain that's even more interesting. The Grocery store and the Mountain by themselves are uninteresting but the presences of sapient life there reacting to the situation is fascinating.

The Tchpth I will only note are the odd ball species out both because we know so little about them and what we do learn about them is that they are bizzare, the glimpses we get tell us that they are a race of mad scientists wiling to do anything to anyone just to see what happens but the only Tchpth we meet are by all indications hand picked by the Darhel and even on Tchpth worlds we get zero insight into their culture, there just a big damn enigma and I wonder exactly how pacifist they are considering they built rampaging robots.

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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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Ahriman238 wrote:There’s not a ton to say about the Galactic Federation from a vs. standpoint. First and foremost, because every member of that Federation is a total pacifist unwilling or unable to inflict violence. But then, what other group could the Darhel hope to dominate without being able to use force? In the first book, the Darhel claim that all their members are peaceful, because violent races inevitably wipe themselves out before mastering space-travel. This is clearly a lie in their case at least, though both Humans and Posleen are uplifted. Still, it may work as a vague and general rule.
Are humans uplifted? I don't remember the evidence of it.
Socially, the Galactics are very hierarchical, with virtually no limits on what a person can do to his or her subordinates. A locked door, for instance, is only locked until a higher-ranked individual wants to get in. It was suggested in Hymn that the Galactics are going through an overpopulation crisis, but as far as I’ve read, nothing’s come of it.
Well, their overpopulation won't get much worse over the ten year timespan of the war, and afterwards there's a lot of former Posleen worlds open for recolonization- problem temporarily solved.
Later of course, we learn about the magic nano-assemblers called sohon. It’s not really clear if the guy in the first book didn’t know about sohon, or if sohon itself is just another job, making some of the more complex and improbable parts. It’s possible the Indowy can still do amazing things with just hand-crafting, even probable, given how the Posleen were using Indowy as engineers late in the war.
Both, probably. Though there's quasi-mystical aspects to it as well.
Speaking of, I’m incredibly jealous of the sohon technology that lets them make all sorts of unlikely materials.
Hell yeah.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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I'd like to make a correction, the Darhel didn't lose a war to the Aldenata. The Darhel were a technological but hyperspace-incapable species that had pretty much wrecked their entire home solar system and were going to die out. The Aldenata found them, and offered them hyperspace tech and a lift to another planet if the Darhel would give up violence forever. The Darhel agreed, because they figured they could always go back to their old ways once they were in a position of strength, but the Aldenata reconfigured their biology to make that impossible.

Also, in 'Eye of the Storm' we find out there is a LOT more to the Himmit than we've been led to believe (they may even be able to fight) but they choose not to in order to remain unnoticed by scary galactic powers.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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You know, the Darhel anti-violence thing is kind of a stretch if they're also supposed to be in charge of galactic society. Doesn't MAD MIKE or someone kill a Darhel official by, essentially, pissing him off? :D
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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PeZook wrote:You know, the Darhel anti-violence thing is kind of a stretch if they're also supposed to be in charge of galactic society. Doesn't MAD MIKE or someone kill a Darhel official by, essentially, pissing him off? :D
You can drive a Darheel into lintintai, yes.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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The only reason the Darhel run galactic society is because;

1. The Himmit let them.
2. The Indowwy can't stop them.

Darhel can and do choose to push themselves to the limits of agression and cruelty that their biology will allow, while the other Galactic races don't. If they were capable of overt violence, they'd probably have enslaved earth 2000 years ago.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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phongn wrote:
PeZook wrote:You know, the Darhel anti-violence thing is kind of a stretch if they're also supposed to be in charge of galactic society. Doesn't MAD MIKE or someone kill a Darhel official by, essentially, pissing him off? :D
You can drive a Darheel into lintintai, yes.
It's not especially easy to do that, though. And you have to be utterly fucking crazy-bold to do it, because for those brief seconds of lintatai while their fight/flight reflexes kick in, a Darhel is like a berserk gorilla with carnivore teeth. They will probably kill you before they die.

I did find the context in which MAD MIKE does this amusing. Basically, after the war and during the cleanup of Posleen-inhabited worlds, Mike winds up getting arrested by the Galactics on spurious charges because they want him dead for various Dangerous Secrets (TM) he knows. They want a show trial, though, in which he will confess to all manner of crimes and make himself look like an utter shit.

For procedural reasons they have to give him an attorney. He tells the attorney some of those Dangerous Secrets (TM). The next day, a new attorney shows up. He asks "what happened to the other guy?" Reply: "Don't ask."

So he starts telling the new attorney some of those Dangerous Secrets (TM). The new attorney goes "...oh shit."

Next day, yet another attorney. You begin to see the pattern. Repeat a few times, until he gets a Darhel lawyer who's actually cleared to know the Dangerous Secrets... then he goads the guy into lintatai. Which nearly gets MAD MIKE killed, too.

It's stupid, I'm sure, but for some reason I think it's funny.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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The Darhel also want Mad Mike dead because under Galactic prize rules he is filthy fucking rich and could totally fuck the Darhel domination of the financial system if he lays claim to his prize money. Which he does after the quadralogy.

Of all the Galactics, the Darhel are the most impressive and tragic IMO. They're like Wookiies without the fur and capacity for violence, forced to play a role they don't really want. Banking is a far less viscerally satisfying form of conquest than sword and spear, after all.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Simon_Jester »

Choc, the money is one of the Dangerous Secrets (TM) I was talking about in the first place.

The exact nature of the secrets is irrelevant; what's darkly amusing is his habit of effectively signing the death warrants of the people sent to make him confess during the kangaroo court, by telling them those secrets.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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Touche.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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Thanks Bean!
The Tchpth I will only note are the odd ball species out both because we know so little about them and what we do learn about them is that they are bizzare, the glimpses we get tell us that they are a race of mad scientists wiling to do anything to anyone just to see what happens but the only Tchpth we meet are by all indications hand picked by the Darhel and even on Tchpth worlds we get zero insight into their culture, there just a big damn enigma and I wonder exactly how pacifist they are considering they built rampaging robots.
And that's the million dollar question. We know why the Indowy suffer the Darhel to rule them, and the Himmit as well, but what about the Tchpth? Are they physically, mentally or culturally incapable of violence? Are they held under economic coercion? Or do they simply not give a shit as long as the Darhel don't oppress them specifically. Or are they allies of the Darhel in ruling the other two races?

We just don't know. Perhaps while they can see the inequalitites of their society they do not consider such to be inhereantly injust? Maybe the idea of a specialized 'hive' with workers and leaders and intellectuals appeals to them, given their physiology?
simon wrote:Are humans uplifted? I don't remember the evidence of it.
Uh, yeah. The fleet of FTL warships, AI, power armor etc? Not exactly purely human inventions. The Galactics showed up, gave us access to the AID database with all ther sciences and technology and told us to make something militarily useful out of it.

You may be able to argue that it's not a true uplifting, but it handily discounts humanity as proof that violent species can develop FTL without wiping themselves out first.
Chewie wrote:I'd like to make a correction, the Darhel didn't lose a war to the Aldenata. The Darhel were a technological but hyperspace-incapable species that had pretty much wrecked their entire home solar system and were going to die out. The Aldenata found them, and offered them hyperspace tech and a lift to another planet if the Darhel would give up violence forever. The Darhel agreed, because they figured they could always go back to their old ways once they were in a position of strength, but the Aldenata reconfigured their biology to make that impossible.
Okay, so maybe all the violent species DO wipe themselves out before discovering FTL on their own, or get uplifted. Unless there's more than I think to the more that you say there is to the Himmit. Plus the 'Hedren' from Eye, I haven't read that book and I don't know what their sad story is.
Pezook wrote:You know, the Darhel anti-violence thing is kind of a stretch if they're also supposed to be in charge of galactic society. Doesn't MAD MIKE or someone kill a Darhel official by, essentially, pissing him off?
Like I said, If all the races weren't such pacifists, the Darhel would be unable to oppress them, because the Darhel can't back up their demands with force. Can you imagine them trying something similar with, say, Klingons?
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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Ahriman238 wrote:
simon wrote:Are humans uplifted? I don't remember the evidence of it.
Uh, yeah. The fleet of FTL warships, AI, power armor etc? Not exactly purely human inventions. The Galactics showed up, gave us access to the AID database with all ther sciences and technology and told us to make something militarily useful out of it.

You may be able to argue that it's not a true uplifting, but it handily discounts humanity as proof that violent species can develop FTL without wiping themselves out first.
Ohhh sorry. I misunderstood what you meant by "uplifting;" that doesn't mean I intend to dispute your definition.
Okay, so maybe all the violent species DO wipe themselves out before discovering FTL on their own, or get uplifted. Unless there's more than I think to the more that you say there is to the Himmit. Plus the 'Hedren' from Eye, I haven't read that book and I don't know what their sad story is.
I kind of skimmed that book- I'm not sure the Hedren have a sad story. I think they may just be in it to beat people up and take their stuff.
Pezook wrote:You know, the Darhel anti-violence thing is kind of a stretch if they're also supposed to be in charge of galactic society. Doesn't MAD MIKE or someone kill a Darhel official by, essentially, pissing him off?
Like I said, If all the races weren't such pacifists, the Darhel would be unable to oppress them, because the Darhel can't back up their demands with force. Can you imagine them trying something similar with, say, Klingons?
True. Of course, in a galaxy full of Klingons, the Darhel would probably never have been remade in that image in the first place.

It's implied that nonviolence is something of a galactic 'norm,' with a substantial majority of advanced races in humanity's neck of the galaxy being either naturally or artificially much less violent than humanity, even if they're physically capable of it (like the Himmit, who would probably have no problem with pushing a button to blow something up from the other side of a mountain range if it was important).

In a galaxy dominated by advanced nonviolent races the Klingons would probably not have been able to develop FTL travel on their own- they'd be the Darhel, or their counterparts, with the same problems of fighting among themselves.

Which is actually a good question to ask about Proud Warrior Races in general- in real life, most cultures that have a strong focus on personal honor and vindication through combat aren't at the forefront of technological and economic growth. The ones that thrive are usually either good at directing violence outward and avoiding it internally, or just not especially bloody-minded.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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The Hedren are terrifying.
Eye of the Storm wrote:The Tyranny is a very autocratic society. The Imeg (overseer race) maintain a thought-police that seeks anyone who does not accept the Hedren Archons as living gods. Living conditions for the majority of the Tyranny are bare subsistence level. They do not eat their enemies as the Posleen tend to, but any race they deem 'lacking utility' is destroyed utterly as a waste of resources. Anyone not being productive to the Tyranny and totally in support of the Tyranny is equally destroyed. The Indowy have already been determined to be 'lacking utility' and the Hedren are destroying them on all their conquered worlds. Equally the Tchpth. Darhel are still being classified. Himmit they will kill out of hand. Posleen have also been put on their useless list due to the difficulty with distinguishing between God Kings and normals. Humans... well humans can be slaves, as has been proven repeatedly in human history. Imagine the most repressive an auctocratic dictatorship in human history. Now add a theocracy and 'priests' that can read your mind and send to death camps anyone who does not WORSHIP the Archons.
It is stated the Himmit could 'probably' defeat the Hedren, but they're currently in hiding from an even greater power, likely whichever power it is the Hedren are fleeing from.
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