Scenario: SW Galactic Empire vs. WH:40K Imperium of Man

[Spiritbw]

Well, the number for the Star Wars side being thrown around is a thousand Star Destroyers so what ever thier compliment in Storm Troopers and thier equipment available on board would be your ground troops. Assuming that that is your invasion force and there is no reinforcment that is probably a realistic idea of what would be mobilized. Anything more might be stripping the Empires forces a bit thin. If Palpatine is the one issuing the order then you probobly still have Rebels fighting back in the SW space.

IoM side you probably have some where between one and a hundred thousand Custodes by the fluff. If we go with the strength of the old legion we probably could say that there are fifteen thousand Custodes just to give us a set number. Probably three Titan legions in or around the palace. Using Storm of Iron as a referance that would give us about six Warlords, twenty Reavers and about six Warhounds. There are at least two Emperor class titans as well. Imperial Guard would be well, I'm not sure what would be a realistic estimate. Your talking at least several divisions of 10,000 strong and all thier attendant kit, tanks and support. You might actually also have a number of super-heavy tanks, possibly a dozen of various types in the palace.

Operations and all fighting is probably going to be in the palace it's self. Even the tanks and large machines like AT-ATs and the Titans would ahve room to move in some fo the large halls. Others is going to be to tight for anything but foot troops.

[Black Admiral]

Probably three Titan legions in or around the palace. Using Storm of Iron as a referance that would give us about six Warlords, twenty Reavers and about six Warhounds.

Or, alternatively, we could use the Ironclad Legion from Iron Hands as a basis, which gives us one Imperator, forty Warlords (mixed lights and heavies), sixteen Warhounds and twenty-four Reavers.

[Black Admiral]

Dammit, the above post should say "per legion."

[SAMAS]

Horus had fully half of the 20 space marine chapters at his disposal (this is before the 1000 marines per chapter limit established by the Codex), half the AdMech, and was hosting a bit of all four of the chaos gods at the time. Meaning that he effectively had half of the entire IoM and powers to rival the emperor.

Against Earth at that time, with just two space marine chapters, the Imerial Fists and Blood Angels, two more on the way (the loyal half of the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves, both of whom arrive after the Emperors fight w/ Horus), and it's planetary and orbital defenses.

Since then, the entire Sol system has been much more heavily fortified. That many imperial ships appearing out of nowhere are going to get shot at with everything the local defenses have.

It should also be mentioned that when Horus attacked, half the Guard/PDF forces on the imperial side turned traitor at the walls.

[white_rabbit]

Heh. we could use the legio Ordo Sinister.

12 Imperator class Titans

Also of interest.

"In comparison to Battle Titans of all classes Imperators are rare with most Titan Legions able to field three or four Imperators in a campaign."

Titan Legions, Page 18

[Lancer]

I stand corrected.

Three Loyalist Space Marine Legions, half of the Imperial Guard presence on Earth and half of Earth's Planetary defenses against several traitor Legions, the remaining half of the Imperial Guard & PDF, and half the AdMech, and chaos was still winning only by the scrap of their teeth (and wouldn't be able to hold out if the Space Wolves and half of the Dark Angels arrived to reinforce Earth).

[white_rabbit]

Assuming Horus had the greater part of the Traitor Legions present with him...

Say 80% casualties for them, 20000 troops per present chapter.

World Eaters
Black Legion
Emperors Children
Deathguard

Three Titan Legions

Hundreds of thousands of daemons, cultist forces, renegade PDF, and Mutant hordes.

The Dark Mechanicus forces allied with Horus
Unspecified numbers of Daemonic siege equipment.


This was the opening bombardment

"It was on Earth, at the very heart of humanity´s realm, that the fata of the galaxy was to be decided. In those last days, the sky was black with dustclouds and the earth was split by gigantic fissures. Tectonic plates shifted under the stress of the bombardment. Mountain chanins shivered and seas evaporated and became salty deserts. Rains of blood and ash dripped from the dark sky. Everywhere oracles muttered evil portents and men went mad with fear. "


55 days before they breached the outer walls.

*shrug* They reinforced the place afterwards.

Basic truth ? A thousand ISDs bombard the place, with their weapons of unspecified, and therefore essentially whatever the current guesstimation, scaling linearly/exponentially, picked out of the ether, etc calc yields are.

shields fail, the ISDs reduce the defences to slag, hovering SSDs/SDs bombarding the place until its defenders are all dead, and burning some trees maybe.

Imperial troops wait for the hissing to stop, walk in and unplug the emperor, the end.


The outer space defences are irrelevent, this is whatever Darth Vader wants, so he can bring it all.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Assuming that the rebellion has been wiped out, and these calcs are used, the most effective(in my opinion) plan of action for the Empire is this:

Phase One "Data-gathering":Begin massive probot surveying of the W40K galaxy. Once key information is acquired, begin deployment of 5,000 ISDs across the W40K in an attempt to disable and capture a few ships(this should be a simple matter due to the Empire's superior firepower), for study and reverse-engineering of such technologies as Gellar Fields, Space Marines, and other technologies which will be required for an invasion.

Phase Two "First Strike": Deploy a force of 10,000 ISDs and 1,000 World Devastators towards the Terra system. Deploy 5,000 near the Cadia system if the destruction of a Chaos fleet is required to prevent them from entering and corrupting the Empire. The Terra assault group will send 6,000 of its fleet directly into orbit of Terra. The other 4,000 will come in from the outskirts of the system to prevent Terra's blockade from being overwhelmed by Battlefleet Solar.
Due to the Empire's superior firepower, the Sol system should be secured quickly. The massed bombardment of Terra until all but a 10-km diameter piece of Europe- the part containing the Emperor- remains.
At this point, the World Devastator should begin the conversion of Luna, or perhaps Earth itself, into Dark Troopers and AT-ATs which will blast down the walls and the Adeptus Custodes until they have reached the Golden Throne. The removal of said throne will be follow with the most delicate grace possible to avoid disturbing the Corpse god which lies on it.

The immediate removal of a small portion of the fleet holding the Emperor will immediately escape to Coruscant. The remainder of the fleet will prepare to defend against the oncoming fleets of the Imperium.

[Vendetta]

Just as a thought, how would the Empire deal with the Imperium at the height of the Dark Age of Technology, since a lot of the GE wanking so far has included things firmly covered by the usual lost tech exclusions, it's only fair to reciprocate...

[Lancer]

heh. Let me put up an analogy.

Vong are trying to capture the Emperor pre-ANH. Hunderds if not thousands of Star Destroyers are at Coruscant, with even more scattered throughout the system doing patrols, the entire planet is covered in SPHATs, AT-ATs, LAATs, Stormtroopers, Clonetroopers, Darktroopers, Spacetroopers, etc, and there are planetary shields and hunderds of sith drastically more powerful than Vader present.

Or, a much better analogy. Breen make an assault on Earth under cloak. They decloak and immediately begin bombarding Earth. They get wiped out by planetary defenses before they can do any real damage.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Except that Star Destroyers are about 100 times more powerful than Emperor-class battleships.

[Spiritbw]

Yes but your allowing for Dark troopers and World Devistators. If you get that how about the IoM getting Void weaponry. They can't build anymore of these but they are much more deadly than anything they currently ahve. example, in the case of a torpedo it would explode, create a vast sphere of darkness. When the darkness fades there is...nothing. Everything that entered the sphere or was in the area when it came into being is just gone. Matter and energy alike just vanishes.

Imperial Guard units in second edition could have a couple of void genrades available to them. Shall we let the Custodes and other Terra forces have such weapons?

[SirNitram]

Because the Empire gets it's full alotment of gear we know it has files on, the Imperium gets canonically lost technology? Yes, I can see this is a terribly well-conducted debate.

[Spiritbw]

Some of what is being suggested is of the Empire under ideal conditions. If we do taht for the Empire we should do that for the Imperium. The entire time Palpatine was on the throne he didn't have this level of weaponr and was trying to fight Rebels. They have suggested the Rebels are wiped out and that they have access to every piece that ahs been shown in SW even thoughs ome like the Dark troopers, where supposedly completly wiped out. If we are to allow SW to have it's ideal then we would for balance have to let the Imperium have it's ideal and so, the ability to manufacture Void weaponry.

[SirNitram]

Some of what is being suggested is of the Empire under ideal conditions. If we do taht for the Empire we should do that for the Imperium. The entire time Palpatine was on the throne he didn't have this level of weaponr and was trying to fight Rebels. They have suggested the Rebels are wiped out and that they have access to every piece that ahs been shown in SW even thoughs ome like the Dark troopers, where supposedly completly wiped out. If we are to allow SW to have it's ideal then we would for balance have to let the Imperium have it's ideal and so, the ability to manufacture Void weaponry.

A difference of three years versus thousands. I'm not buying that justification anytime soon.

In a sensible discussion of such, in this the Imperium has no other enemies to fight but has it's gear as per year 40,000. As if the 'Nids, Orks, Eldar, and 'Crons just evaporated or whatever.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

The problem is, if there hadn't been a Rebellion to destroy them, all the tech would exist still, and the OP stated that the rebels had been wiped out.

[Enforcer Talen]

snip

Okay, nice plan a few thoughts though.

Step #1) Could work but how long would it take? Even with the vast speed SW has your talking about alot of space. Plus, I'm assuming your not wanting the Imperium to know someone is mapping thier worlds Which means being relativly sneaky. Crashing as a meteror works on most worlds but a built up world like say, a forgeworld is going to notice everything comming in for landing and try to study it. Anything coming in for a crash on Terra is going to be shot to pieces before it has a chance. Imperium AA seems to be up to 1000km and even having a lower yield per shot, I think they can hit and destroy something comming in on a balistic course that is the size of a probot and shell.

Any info beyond topography also is going to need closer study with the people and thier information networks. Despite most sci-fi I doubt SW and IoM have compatible systems. The longer they take being close to the inhabitants, the more likely they will find them. IIRC the probots shells have one use hyperdrives. The AM might be unable to come up with anything orginal but give them something they can copy and they do alright. The number of bots your need to do this would give them a chance to get plenty of samples.

step #2)Your going to fly a Death Star inot the Cadia system. Probably the most heavily defneded system after the Sol system, and blow it up. Not to mention it's right on the Chaos power's doorstep. I see a few problems here.

1-the DS isn't the most manuverable ship when it's in a system. It also tends to act alone since it's assumed able to repel heavy fleets and after the first one, resistant to having small starfighters hitting that 'one weak spot'. Which is fine, assuming that the Imperium wants to blow it up. If they don't, the DS might be easier for the Imerium to attack than the SD.

Why do I think that? Well for one, in ROTJ, the second DS seemd to lack AA defenses the same as the first one did. Course, it could just be a combination of not being finished and the thought that the shield would keep out such things but you would think some would be finished and activated when the shield came down. All the firepower not coming off the TIEs though seems to be large turbolasers though, anti-ship weapons.

If that's the case and it has shields similar to the first then the DS could be in serious danger of an assault pod/torpedo/ship attack. One thing Cadia has a good chance of having is a couple of Space Marine ships in system at any given time. Given that most SW ships depend on it's Stormtroopers and not automated defenses if even a few pods make the landing they could open up a hole in the defenses to allow more to come in. Suddenly you have the problem of a Death Star being in Imperium hands along with all tech it holds.

Also that's assuming the Chaos forces don't decide to come out and play. It could reduce Imperium forces in any defense agaisnt the DS, but it could also mean more problems for the DS. Not a pretty picture in that case and we might get to see who out fires who, the PK or the DS. Using a Planet destroying level weapon on the DS is a situation I don't think has been considered when it comes to the shield strength the DS has.

step #3)there would be a shift, but it would be more to pull back. If all the planet's are gone there is no need to defend the area anymore. Again if you send in the DS you have the same problem where it is possible it could be taken.

step #4) Think this one was discounted by previos post.

1) vader can send probe droids all through the galaxy - mapping the planets wont take long at all. we dont need exact ship estimates, just where the planets are so we dont get lost. that finds us cadia and earth.

2) Im assuming the death star is per the movies - millions of turbolasers, docking bays for sds, et al. it zips in, fires a long one at cadia planet, and runs like a squirrel. seeign the firepower comparisons so far, it can handle the volleys from any fleets in the area.

its not a major part of the plan, either, just wanting chaos to do their next crusade and make the iom panic. less reinforcements to throw at terra, neh?

3) you kill every planet around Sol System, the IoM arent getting reinforcements anytime soon. warp takes a very long time. then you float to the system itself, and start lobbing. the death star is meant to handle fighting sw fleets - iom fleets wont handle as well, particularly when planets and space stations are blowing up hourly. as seen by yavin, the death star is one hell of a mover.

then you scorch 90% of earth. you dont *need* any of it besides terra, and world devastators can produce all the droikeka and tie bombers you need.

[NecronLord]

Because the Empire gets it's full alotment of gear we know it has files on, the Imperium gets canonically lost technology? Yes, I can see this is a terribly well-conducted debate.

As far as we know, any and all files on the contruction of Dark Troopers were aboard the Arc Hammer when it was destroyed.

[Chris OFarrell]

Because the Empire gets it's full alotment of gear we know it has files on, the Imperium gets canonically lost technology? Yes, I can see this is a terribly well-conducted debate.

As far as we know, any and all files on the contruction of Dark Troopers were aboard the Arc Hammer when it was destroyed.

Actualy not quite. The Dark Trooper technology was IIRC said to have been backed up by the Emperor, like he did with most of his super high tech stuff in one of the RPG's. BUt he was so pissed about the loss of the Arc Hammer and the resources he had deployed into it, to have yet another attempt at the Super Droid Army fail, that he canned the program.

We had the 'Dark Troopers' in Dark Empire of course, but they were I think more normal Stormtroopers.

Besides. The timeframe here is not clear. Vader and Palpy are around, its more then possible that Katarn hasn't blown Arc Hammer sky high yet. And I can see Palpitine (seeing the need to massivly expand his army quickly) ordering General Mohc to go to full scale production rather then the limited test phase he was working with.

[Spiritbw]

Some of what is being suggested is of the Empire under ideal conditions. If we do taht for the Empire we should do that for the Imperium. The entire time Palpatine was on the throne he didn't have this level of weaponr and was trying to fight Rebels. They have suggested the Rebels are wiped out and that they have access to every piece that ahs been shown in SW even thoughs ome like the Dark troopers, where supposedly completly wiped out. If we are to allow SW to have it's ideal then we would for balance have to let the Imperium have it's ideal and so, the ability to manufacture Void weaponry.

A difference of three years versus thousands. I'm not buying that justification anytime soon.

In a sensible discussion of such, in this the Imperium has no other enemies to fight but has it's gear as per year 40,000. As if the 'Nids, Orks, Eldar, and 'Crons just evaporated or whatever.

Sorry SirNitram this is the sort of arguments I come up with when pissed with some people making assumptions that counterdict even the outline of the scenerio in the first post. We are working on the assumption that the rebellion is still strong and active as stated in the first post in this thread:

Emperor Palpatine, intrigued by the potential of a whole second galaxy to rule over, decides that a campaign against extra-galactic aliens could very well be the thing to rally the Empire's citizens to him and away from the Rebellion. The Imperium of Man poses a difficult problem, however; seemingly human themselves, and also waging war against these aliens, they might prove difficult for the propagandists to adequately demonize

.

The bold is to point my own argument in this. So, one of the posts saying they don't have to worry about the Rebellion in considering sending forces here. This also keeps with canon which had the Palpatine fighting either the droid armies or the rebellion for most of his known reign. Suddenly saying 'oh the Rebellion is wiped out' is about the same as us giving the Imperium access to lost Void weaponry.

With Dark Troopers IIRC, the time frame when they where blown up aborde the Arc Hammer, where still in the testing phase where they not? When it was destroyed they had not yet been deployed but where in the final stages. If there were any backup info held by Palpatine they probably were on Wayland and he doesn't seem to have revield anything of what he had stored there, even to replace what was lost. This one could be iffy but could go either way.

There was a gap of some years between ANH and TESB where the Empire scoured a known galaxy for the Rebel base. They already knew what worlds where firmly within thier hands and could narrow down thier search which consisted of many the unkown regions. From what we gather of the opening post of this thread, the Empire already knows where Terra is and something of the Imperium. You probably wouldn't need to do a search with probots to find out more, just milk the information sources in use already. Using hordes of probots just is a waste of resources when a few spies would do the job just as well if not better becuase it will not be as noted.

We also have again, problems in blowing up Cadia with the rebellion again. Refering back to the first post there is the worry that it will be hard to demonize the Imperium. Blowing up one of the planets of a society that has more or less the same values and goals as the Empire is possibly going to drive more people inot the arms of the rebellion. Bit of a tricky situation. Would the needed effects of destroying Imperium worlds be worth the possible backlash it's going to create?

Also blowing up Cadia is not likely to start another black cruade. More cahos raiding yes, but not likely another black crusade. The black crusades have, to the best of my knowledge, always been lead by Abaddon and always despite the random chaos of the attacks, had certain goals. In the Gothic war he was out to capture the Blackstone fortresses, in the latest crusade, they nearly breached thier way into the black library of the eldar. In either case if the planet Cadia or planets of the Cadia system are destroyed the Imeprium is going to try and do it's best to marcshal it's defneses. After the last crusade Cadia is just about the only Imperium planet in the system that is in Imperium hands and then, only just. They might qquit the system all together and pull back to the next line of systems instead of reinforcing. Again, could work could not.

Again, blowing up planets in the Sol system and the serounding systems could ahve backlashing effects with the rebellion in the SW universe. Also, the way I've been lead to understnad the Imperium works when it comes to reinforcment your actually speeding up the numbers that would start heading to Terra. IIRC the way reinforcment of any action in the IoM goes is that it starts at the plaentary level. If they cannot hold then it goes to the system, then the sector and so on and so forth. Only a black crusade can rouse multiple segments to battle by it's sheer scope. If several systems just vanish there is more likely the Segments start pouring troops and ships towards Terra if they hear there is a blockading fleet.

Back on the Death Star, yes it moves pretty fast, but it's rather slow and short range compared to IoM. Thier shots might not be as powerfull but they can hardly miss. Besides, I wasn't talking about a attack of ship battieres, I was talking about a boarding action. As I stated, the Death Star even at Endor hardly seems to hardly have any anti fighter protection. Like Star Destroyers it seems to depend on it's fighters for that. If the TIEs have no shields as I have always been lead to believe then the IoM fighters would have a good chance against them and there would be nothing to stop a assualt of marines landing by boarding pods and boarding torpedos. Rember at Yavin the fighters actually passed through the Death Star's shields by simply moving slowly enough that they were only shaken. Then again, if we assume they are operating at the time frame in the movies that this is being suggested, the Empire might not even have a Death star in which case, this line of discussion is moot.

Another point that makes me wonder. We keep having things like droikeka next to Stormtroopers yet it seems in the movies that with the introduction of Stormtroopers all use of droid armies and troops of any kind fall out of use completely. In fact in all the books I read other than rare assasin droids there are no real combat troop type droids untill the Vong start invading, long after the Empire has been pretty much defeated. The exception being the mecha-esque battle droids that make an appearance in the comics. I could see using one or the other, but using a combination of both seems out of keeping with Star Wars Canon.

Canonly there are a few other things I could throw in for the Imperium side. One would by psycannons and psybolts. It would be up to debate as to wiether these would ahve thier main advantage agaist SW troops. What makes these weaposna nda mmo uefull is that they can penetrate through all shielding and force fields as though they weren't there. Given the wide range of diffrent shields and shielding effects present in the 40k universe it's possible to see where these might still be able to do the same with SW shielding but I will admit we have no real way of knowing. So far to date there have been no ship grade versions but it would be likely the Custodes would have such ammo on the ground and more than a few such weapons.

The other thing is the Legion of The Damned. This get's debatable but they are canon for 40k. The Legion has a tendance to just appear on the battlefield when some IoM forces are worst pressed. If there was ever a time that the Imperium was pressed this would be it. Though how we are going to factor the fighting in against a legion that has all the qualities of the ghost army in Return of the King, but made up entirely of Space Marines and thier equipment I have no idea.

Oh, and as to blowing holes in wall, you can't do that to all walls. At lest, you REALLY don't want to do that to load bearing walls. Whiley ou might get the enemy by bringing part of the palace down on them your going to lose the troops int hea rea as well. Also after the first few times they are going to start expecting it and you have a building that covers all Europe to get through.

[white_rabbit]

The black crusades have, to the best of my knowledge, always been lead by Abaddon

Nope, Black Crusades are a term for a large chaotic assault from the Eye of Terror, usually the most organised and powerful.

Example, the Black Crusade led by *SPOILER FOR BLOOD QUEST* Captain Leonatos possessed

And the various Black Crusades detailed within Liber Chaotica Khorne.



I don't know why this debate even got off the ground, even factoring in the Rebellion, the current SW yields are IIRC, something daft like Petatons.

So, say a spare sector fleet, which I am sure the Empire can spare. 24 ISDs, 1600 other combat craft (assuming this was a sector fleet from a priority sector, the Sourcebook indicates that most weren't at that point)

They grind their way through Terras defences, picking off targets from across the system, (the justification for short ranges being jamming similar to the Deathstars "distortion fields" ) Then proceed to heavily support their ground troops, until they control Terra.

Game over.

[Enforcer Talen]

We also have again, problems in blowing up Cadia with the rebellion again. Refering back to the first post there is the worry that it will be hard to demonize the Imperium. Blowing up one of the planets of a society that has more or less the same values and goals as the Empire is possibly going to drive more people inot the arms of the rebellion. Bit of a tricky situation. Would the needed effects of destroying Imperium worlds be worth the possible backlash it's going to create?

Also blowing up Cadia is not likely to start another black cruade. More cahos raiding yes, but not likely another black crusade. The black crusades have, to the best of my knowledge, always been lead by Abaddon and always despite the random chaos of the attacks, had certain goals. In the Gothic war he was out to capture the Blackstone fortresses, in the latest crusade, they nearly breached thier way into the black library of the eldar. In either case if the planet Cadia or planets of the Cadia system are destroyed the Imeprium is going to try and do it's best to marcshal it's defneses. After the last crusade Cadia is just about the only Imperium planet in the system that is in Imperium hands and then, only just. They might qquit the system all together and pull back to the next line of systems instead of reinforcing. Again, could work could not.

Again, blowing up planets in the Sol system and the serounding systems could ahve backlashing effects with the rebellion in the SW universe. Also, the way I've been lead to understnad the Imperium works when it comes to reinforcment your actually speeding up the numbers that would start heading to Terra. IIRC the way reinforcment of any action in the IoM goes is that it starts at the plaentary level. If they cannot hold then it goes to the system, then the sector and so on and so forth. Only a black crusade can rouse multiple segments to battle by it's sheer scope. If several systems just vanish there is more likely the Segments start pouring troops and ships towards Terra if they hear there is a blockading fleet.

Back on the Death Star, yes it moves pretty fast, but it's rather slow and short range compared to IoM. Thier shots might not be as powerfull but they can hardly miss. Besides, I wasn't talking about a attack of ship battieres, I was talking about a boarding action. As I stated, the Death Star even at Endor hardly seems to hardly have any anti fighter protection. Like Star Destroyers it seems to depend on it's fighters for that. If the TIEs have no shields as I have always been lead to believe then the IoM fighters would have a good chance against them and there would be nothing to stop a assualt of marines landing by boarding pods and boarding torpedos. Rember at Yavin the fighters actually passed through the Death Star's shields by simply moving slowly enough that they were only shaken. Then again, if we assume they are operating at the time frame in the movies that this is being suggested, the Empire might not even have a Death star in which case, this line of discussion is moot.

Another point that makes me wonder. We keep having things like droikeka next to Stormtroopers yet it seems in the movies that with the introduction of Stormtroopers all use of droid armies and troops of any kind fall out of use completely. In fact in all the books I read other than rare assasin droids there are no real combat troop type droids untill the Vong start invading, long after the Empire has been pretty much defeated. The exception being the mecha-esque battle droids that make an appearance in the comics. I could see using one or the other, but using a combination of both seems out of keeping with Star Wars Canon.

Canonly there are a few other things I could throw in for the Imperium side. One would by psycannons and psybolts. It would be up to debate as to wiether these would ahve thier main advantage agaist SW troops. What makes these weaposna nda mmo uefull is that they can penetrate through all shielding and force fields as though they weren't there. Given the wide range of diffrent shields and shielding effects present in the 40k universe it's possible to see where these might still be able to do the same with SW shielding but I will admit we have no real way of knowing. So far to date there have been no ship grade versions but it would be likely the Custodes would have such ammo on the ground and more than a few such weapons.

The other thing is the Legion of The Damned. This get's debatable but they are canon for 40k. The Legion has a tendance to just appear on the battlefield when some IoM forces are worst pressed. If there was ever a time that the Imperium was pressed this would be it. Though how we are going to factor the fighting in against a legion that has all the qualities of the ghost army in Return of the King, but made up entirely of Space Marines and thier equipment I have no idea.

Oh, and as to blowing holes in wall, you can't do that to all walls. At lest, you REALLY don't want to do that to load bearing walls. Whiley ou might get the enemy by bringing part of the palace down on them your going to lose the troops int hea rea as well. Also after the first few times they are going to start expecting it and you have a building that covers all Europe to get through.

cadia has the pylons which keeps a hold on the eye of terror - those are gone, and chaos goes completely crazy. it doesnt need to be unified for our purposes, just big.

what would the rebellion care about a few bdzs? I dont think they would even hear about them - free press is not often used in a dictatorship or invasion force.

the joy of war40k is that it takes *decades* for info to move. I can quite cheerfully kill every planet within 50 light years of earth, and have nearly a century before anyone knows about it. they would have to send ships to see whats going on, report back, gather a fleet, and launch. I have time. as well, all the close reinforcements are destroyed, which are more my concern.

re: the deathstar, how will boarding parties get close when several hundred thousand turbolasers are opening fire? wong has better stats on the death star then I do, but I think its firepower is more then sufficient to handle the peicemeal terran fleets that approach it. sure, terra is packed with ships - but not all of them arrive at once, and the death star can bitch slap them one at a time - or even a hundred at a time. and exploding planets and moons every few hours would make even the best pilot nervous.

even if it takes 6 months to destroy every planet in the terran system, so what? reinforcements arent showing up for decades. stormtroopers are prolly better then droids, as seen in movie 2, but droids can die and no one will care - and they dont need training time. give htem a few circuits and they are ready to go. fortress europe will be hardpressed against the distelled metal of 4 dozen moons.

[Falkenhayn]

the joy of war40k is that it takes *decades* for info to move. I can quite cheerfully kill every planet within 50 light years of earth, and have nearly a century before anyone knows about it. they would have to send ships to see whats going on, report back, gather a fleet, and launch. I have time. as well, all the close reinforcements are destroyed, which are more my concern.

Prove it.

re: the deathstar, how will boarding parties get close when several hundred thousand turbolasers are opening fire? wong has better stats on the death star then I do, but I think its firepower is more then sufficient to handle the peicemeal terran fleets that approach it. sure, terra is packed with ships - but not all of them arrive at once, and the death star can bitch slap them one at a time - or even a hundred at a time. and exploding planets and moons every few hours would make even the best pilot nervous.

If the ROTS trailer is any indicator, those turbolasers have a range of between a hundred yards and a couple kilometers. Judging from the size of the SSD in ROTJ, they must be the masterbatory half an AU away right?

even if it takes 6 months to destroy every planet in the terran system, so what? reinforcements arent showing up for decades. stormtroopers are prolly better then droids, as seen in movie 2, but droids can die and no one will care - and they dont need training time. give htem a few circuits and they are ready to go. fortress europe will be hardpressed against the distelled metal of 4 dozen moons.

Prove it. Then again, as per Wolfblade, Terra, Luna, and the moons of Jupiter are armor plated.

[Uraniun235]

Clarification re: the Dark Troopers: I had just happened to stumble across them while perusing the SDN main site, and didn't know about them having been destroyed. I did not intend to posit that the Empire would have access to them for this operation, I merely inquired why they had not been taken into account so far.

Their potential performance in this operation may make for interesting discussion, however, I would ask that anyone who includes them in a hypothetical battle plan notes how many casualties (or indeed, perhaps the very success of the operation itself) are likely to be saved as a result of their deployment.

Re: the Rebellion; my post dealing with them was, in retrospect, too quick and dismissive. I wanted to brush the issue aside to get to the bloody, gory details of the bone-grinding invasion of Terra. But, I see I shall have to give something a little more detailed.

For the purposes of this thread, please assume that the Rebellion was decisively crushed at Endor. The Death Star II (nor any other Death Star) is not available by decree of Emperor Palpatine, as it has been deployed to keep guard over the gateway and ensure nobody sneaks past to effect a counter-strike against the Empire.

I don't know why this debate even got off the ground, even factoring in the Rebellion, the current SW yields are IIRC, something daft like Petatons.

Petatons? I was under the impression current yields are firmly in the teraton range.

Suddenly saying 'oh the Rebellion is wiped out' is about the same as us giving the Imperium access to lost Void weaponry.

If the Rebellion had fumbled at Endor, it very well could have been the end of them... or, at least, a crippling blow so severe that they'd have been set back a very long time. The Rebellion being destroyed is a very viable alternate outcome of the Battle of Endor, so I really don't think it's as drastic a condition as returning technology lost for thousands of years.

As I explained earlier, I didn't want the bloodbath to be limited by something so annoying as a pesky Rebellion back home. If it took the blood of a billion men to accomplish (or not accomplish) the goal I set out, so be it.

[Connor MacLeod]

Because the Empire gets it's full alotment of gear we know it has files on, the Imperium gets canonically lost technology? Yes, I can see this is a terribly well-conducted debate.

As far as we know, any and all files on the contruction of Dark Troopers were aboard the Arc Hammer when it was destroyed.

Right, and the Empire totally lacks the ability to build powered armor of any kind and stick human-shaped droids in it? Or somethign simlar.

Of course, ,there are the SD-9/SD-10 battle droids, Viper Automadons, Tank Droids...