Scenario: SW Galactic Empire vs. WH:40K Imperium of Man

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2005-01-13 06:02pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:ok, heres my grand plan of conquest.

step 1 - use scout droids to map out the galaxy, get planet numbers, and the like.
step 2 - death star cadia. the warp will go crazy, and all the demons will come out. iom has collective shit fit, and rushes all their troops foward.
step 3 - wait 10 years or so for the majority of troops to be moved. send the deathstar to star systems around cadia, and nuke every planet. send it to Sol and hit every planet except earth. use the massive number of turborlasers to deal with the iom ships.
step 4 - bring in a few thousand world devastators and work over the ruins. bdz every continent except europe, and land world devastors there, to pump out millions of battle droids. use the world devastators in the astoried belts to land even more droids.

I figure, that gives you a few decades to take europe, and they wont be getting reinforcements anytime soon. meanwhile, you have 60 odd deconstructed planets and moons, as well as thousands of ships, to turn into droids.

edit, step 3, nuke every planet around the sol system.

Lancer · Post by **Lancer** » 2005-01-13 06:05pm

SAMAS wrote:Ignorance helps, but not by much. Even the Tau can feel the pull of Chaos without even knowing about it, and they're generally too tough/weak(Out of the crew and troops of an entire Tau cruiser, a daemon found only one Tau fit for corruption) for Chaos to even bother trying in all but the most dire of circumstances. Even then, the rest of Tau could feel the Chaos just through seeing/fighting it's minions.

And how did the daemon get to that one Tau? Through his own ambition and drive to prove himself to his father. He didn't even realize it was Chaotic corruption until the daemon told him.

the tau as a race have virtually no presence in the warp. The only existing 40k races that I know of without a warp presence at all are the Necrontyr & C'Tan.

Orcs are immune to the influences of the warp because they've spawned two warp entities of their own, Gork & Mork, whereas the Tyrranids have a collective conciousness that's at warp-god levels.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2005-01-13 06:18pm

Alright, this is to every person who's attempted to deploy a swarm of World Devastators. Nice try, but if we're allowing the Empire to roll out nonexistent assets, the the Imperium gets a few hundred Primarchs out of nowhere, or something similarly rediculous. Actual assets, please.

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2005-01-13 06:37pm

Just so I know, are we assuming Force = Warp?

In that case its likely that Vader may begin to experience some whispers in the back of his mind. Since he would probably shine quite brightly in the warp, and without the knowledge of daemons and their false promises he could succumb to possession. He might even go Horus on Palpys ass.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2005-01-13 06:38pm

Wouldn't THAT be ironic. We'd end up with TWO dudes in golden mecha-thrones staring at each other.

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2005-01-13 06:45pm

Heh, mind you though, I doubt that Palpatine is as trusting of Vader as the Emperor was of Horus. So he probably has soon convuluted contigency plan.

Probably involving monkeys.

Lancer · Post by **Lancer** » 2005-01-13 07:08pm

DocHorror wrote:Heh, mind you though, I doubt that Palpatine is as trusting of Vader as the Emperor was of Horus. So he probably has soon convuluted contigency plan.

even the wanked-out EU Palpentine can't stand a candle to the Emperor or chaosed-Horus. If Vader was chaosed-out, he'd easily hand Palpentine his ass on a golden platter. Contingency plan or not.

Spiritbw · Post by **Spiritbw** » 2005-01-13 07:13pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:ok, heres my grand plan of conquest.

step 1 - use scout droids to map out the galaxy, get planet numbers, and the like.
step 2 - death star cadia. the warp will go crazy, and all the demons will come out. iom has collective shit fit, and rushes all their troops foward.
step 3 - wait 10 years or so for the majority of troops to be moved. send the deathstar to star systems around cadia, and nuke every planet. send it to Sol and hit every planet except earth. use the massive number of turborlasers to deal with the iom ships.
step 4 - bring in a few thousand world devastators and work over the ruins. bdz every continent except europe, and land world devastors there, to pump out millions of battle droids. use the world devastators in the astoried belts to land even more droids.

I figure, that gives you a few decades to take europe, and they wont be getting reinforcements anytime soon. meanwhile, you have 60 odd deconstructed planets and moons, as well as thousands of ships, to turn into droids.
edit, step 3, nuke every planet around the sol system.

Okay, nice plan a few thoughts though.

Step #1) Could work but how long would it take? Even with the vast speed SW has your talking about alot of space. Plus, I'm assuming your not wanting the Imperium to know someone is mapping thier worlds Which means being relativly sneaky. Crashing as a meteror works on most worlds but a built up world like say, a forgeworld is going to notice everything comming in for landing and try to study it. Anything coming in for a crash on Terra is going to be shot to pieces before it has a chance. Imperium AA seems to be up to 1000km and even having a lower yield per shot, I think they can hit and destroy something comming in on a balistic course that is the size of a probot and shell.

Any info beyond topography also is going to need closer study with the people and thier information networks. Despite most sci-fi I doubt SW and IoM have compatible systems. The longer they take being close to the inhabitants, the more likely they will find them. IIRC the probots shells have one use hyperdrives. The AM might be unable to come up with anything orginal but give them something they can copy and they do alright. The number of bots your need to do this would give them a chance to get plenty of samples.

step #2)Your going to fly a Death Star inot the Cadia system. Probably the most heavily defneded system after the Sol system, and blow it up. Not to mention it's right on the Chaos power's doorstep. I see a few problems here.

1-the DS isn't the most manuverable ship when it's in a system. It also tends to act alone since it's assumed able to repel heavy fleets and after the first one, resistant to having small starfighters hitting that 'one weak spot'. Which is fine, assuming that the Imperium wants to blow it up. If they don't, the DS might be easier for the Imerium to attack than the SD.

Why do I think that? Well for one, in ROTJ, the second DS seemd to lack AA defenses the same as the first one did. Course, it could just be a combination of not being finished and the thought that the shield would keep out such things but you would think some would be finished and activated when the shield came down. All the firepower not coming off the TIEs though seems to be large turbolasers though, anti-ship weapons.

If that's the case and it has shields similar to the first then the DS could be in serious danger of an assault pod/torpedo/ship attack. One thing Cadia has a good chance of having is a couple of Space Marine ships in system at any given time. Given that most SW ships depend on it's Stormtroopers and not automated defenses if even a few pods make the landing they could open up a hole in the defenses to allow more to come in. Suddenly you have the problem of a Death Star being in Imperium hands along with all tech it holds.

Also that's assuming the Chaos forces don't decide to come out and play. It could reduce Imperium forces in any defense agaisnt the DS, but it could also mean more problems for the DS. Not a pretty picture in that case and we might get to see who out fires who, the PK or the DS. Using a Planet destroying level weapon on the DS is a situation I don't think has been considered when it comes to the shield strength the DS has.

step #3)there would be a shift, but it would be more to pull back. If all the planet's are gone there is no need to defend the area anymore. Again if you send in the DS you have the same problem where it is possible it could be taken.

step #4) Think this one was discounted by previos post.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-01-14 04:50am

Spiritbw if you're right, then the invading Imperial army is in no greater danger from the chaos gods than say the Imperial Guard. Actually they'd be propably be more safe since they do not for instance travel through the warp, or use other warp based tech. The're are no latent psykers in the imp. army (their existence cannot be proven so they don't have them because there are none in the SW galaxy). Even that they have a presence in the warp can questioned. Isn't the whole warp presence just caused by the small amount of psychic potential all 40K humans have. Well show me that all SW humans have this.

No, force is not the warp.

-Gunhead

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2005-01-14 05:25am

No gunhead, all humans have a presence in the warp except a rare few psychic blanks. These humans are increadibly special and generally are almost impossible for anyone else to be around for long, even other ones of their kind. This is a major point of the Eisenhorn trilogy as Spoiler

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-01-14 05:41am

It's actually very easy to argue that all SW humans are as you say blank. This psychic trait that 40K humans have is genetic right?
Well I recall no instance where someone in SW has shown psychic potential without it being tied to the force. Most psychic races in SW use the force to do it, they just don't know it. Could actually be all of them.

Being a psychic blank doesn't cause any readily apparent mutations in 40K does it? Me thinks not. I just said in my previous post that plain fanatism means absolutely dick.

-Gunhead

Spiritbw · Post by **Spiritbw** » 2005-01-14 06:22am

On average, you'd be right Gunhead. The Imps would have no more or less protection than the Imperial Guard. Though you have to rember that is more my opinion from what I have seen than anything I can prove. If it were easy to prove faith protects the world religions would have alot more ammo in thier arguments. IMHO most are told faith protects becuase how else would you give hope to the masses in a universe where you are beset from all sides by foes. Holy seals and scripture might have warding abilities but it's terribly hard to prove. There was only one story I have seen or read where holy words had an effect of demon tanted and that was in Demi-forge when a corrupted inquisitor sought to take a tome from a Sister of Battle not realizing it was proof against demons.

The best guess I can make is that the warp powers on all sides are not like the Christian ideal of god, all knowing and all powerfull. Compared to most humans save the Emperor of Mankind they are increadably powerfull and can see the effects of things to come centuries down the line, but they are limited in what they can do. They can be distracted and only try to do influence where they see a need for it, even if that purpose will not bear fruit for centuries to come.

They also can only influence things as thier specific sphere of power lets them. Korne works very much through slaughter and killing. He could change things ona world by a bloody coupe, but not through delicate political stratagies like Tzeench<sp? Always the hardest to spell>. As such it limits thier scope to do things untill they find someone they can work with. Once they got thier foot in the door they can spread out a bit more and be a little less specific, working through thier new puppet, even if the puppet doesn't realize it yet. Again, wiether they realize it depends on the god. The Changer of Ways is going to be harder to detect than is Korne or Nurgle.

You don't have to be travel through the warp to come under the influence either. The warp is to the best of my understanding, just on the other side of reality so to speak. Psykers also are not needed to bring a demon through nor do demons have to be in the material world to influence things. Just having the right emotional state or a room that is commonly the site of certain emotions could attract them like a torture room for example. A demon prince managed to influence a chapter of marines through a simple human convict who had been hiding on a station for years and being manipulated by the warp. The demon prince didn't even show himself untill the end when the chapter had done all he asked of them. You don't have to have a demon at your shoulder whispering in your physical ear to be influenced.

I should note that there ARE somethings that have been developed that can help agianst psykers and the warp, but they tend to be aimed for use by psykers. There are materials that can be used to make 'safe rooms' where telepaths and that can go to relax without hearing the entire ships crew. Psionic hoods can give a psyker better control over warp influence and effects around him. The act of soul binding that many astropaths undergo also seems to strengthen them agianst intrusion. A power weaons field can stand up to the force of a demonic power or aura and so be used to parry weapons with such effects.

As to proving that SW humans have a presence in the warp, well prove to me that the Force is not the Warp. We really can do neither with what we have. However, it's been for many threads assumed that the two are the same for arguments sake, it simply makes it easier to figure stuff out specially as it can do similar things. The Force just doesn't have 'things' living in it. Are you sure you want us to throw that out even though that has been the pecidence through out most of the SW/IoM threads?

Spiritbw · Post by **Spiritbw** » 2005-01-14 06:25am

Most humans in 40k don't show psychic potential but have a presence in the warp. Even those that do have some talent don't always have mutations.

Besides, if all SW humans were blanks as described in 40k, none would stand to be near each other.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2005-01-14 06:28am

White Haven wrote:Alright, this is to every person who's attempted to deploy a swarm of World Devastators. Nice try, but if we're allowing the Empire to roll out nonexistent assets, the the Imperium gets a few hundred Primarchs out of nowhere, or something similarly rediculous. Actual assets, please.

"Palpatine orders Darth Vader to secure and deploy whatever military resources he requires in order to capture the God-Emperor of Man. Vader is then ordered to neutralize via massive orbital bombardment the Terran system in order to demoralize the Imperium."

Don't be an ass. Any and all Imperial technology is available. The Primarchs are all DEAD, GONE. World Devasator technology was sent from the Maw instalation to Tarkin/Palpy before ANH and was unleashed enmass in Dark Empire. But its still very much existing and available in the time period if the Emperor wants it deployed.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-01-14 06:50am

Spiritbw wrote:Most humans in 40k don't show psychic potential but have a presence in the warp. Even those that do have some talent don't always have mutations.

Besides, if all SW humans were blanks as described in 40k, none would stand to be near each other.

I thought about this little bit. It could be just that if all humans were blank, it would be the psykers who would have a hard time standing in room with other people. It's well established that the humans in 40K are used as psychic batteries by all warp gods. So they have the potential in them, it's just so small it will never manifest itself in the real world. Anyway, that's why I don't like when this kind of stuff is brought into a military debate. We can argue this till the ends of earth but nobody can really prove anything. Evidence is there sure, but proof is a whole different matter.

I'm a little skeptic about this warp=force. The warp is it's own dimension while the force is in the "real" world. As an overall the force I think would prove greater vs. the warp gods, since it seems to be the defacto god of the SW universe meaning it's omnipotent, and if it was to develop a will of it's own start wrecking havoc, nothing could stand in it's way. This just something I talked about with friend of mine a while back.

-Gunhead

Spiritbw · Post by **Spiritbw** » 2005-01-14 07:02am

I admit when you get down to it, it really doesn't work much in a military debate. However when it comes to 40k the spiritual side of it is so tied to the physical it's hard not to get the two involved. Even reducing it to just humans passing propaganda it's not likely to effect the fleet besieging Terra. More likely they would have used what ever way the SW got to 40k to got work on the nearest worlds in the SW universe. if that's the case then it really has no bearing on the scenerio in discussion unless the seige goes on for a long time, which has a possibility, but a very very small one.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-01-14 07:49am

So, how many troops and ships etc. per side?
This is the real question. So far we've had little or none in the way of numbers involved and without those this cannot be solved.

There are 10000 SM+ the custodes. But against a full blown invasion the main fighting would be done by the Imp. Guard. I'm willing to give space superiority to the Imp. invaders because just the 1000 ISDs proposed here is more than a fair share of the entire IoM fleet. Since the ISDs are not going to slag the whole planet just most of it, the ground fight is what either makes or brakes the day for both sides.

Overall the Empire can militarily win but the losses would be in the millions.
The IoM forces can stall or stop the ground assault and in the very literal sense pray for divine intervention.

-Gunhead

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2005-01-14 08:04am

People keep estimating the Imperials something bad. Throwing around figures like 10,000 - 1 casulaty loss ratios and so on, personaly I'd like to see detailed and cogent arguments for that. Especaiyl with the shear FIREPOWER the Empire won't hesitate to bring to the table.

Horus was able to storm the Imperial Palace afterall in a ground assault, without having to turn the Northern Hemisphere into a molten puddle, he wasn't unleashing THAT much firepower. Yet it still says that he led his troops over the 'broken walls' and for that matter the broken defences. The Empire will NOT have any hesitation in simply blasting 90% of the Palace to slag and killing off 99% of its defences and personnel in the attack. They have both the firepower on hand to do so and no qualms about it.

Then you can send in the toughest and most powerful units enmass. Dark Trooper battledroids for example are nothing to take lightly. They have weapons the equivilant of Starfighters and can take the same kind of punishment in return. They are expendable but are powerful enough that they can and will be able to fight and win.

The only real unknown is the Emperor himself. CAn you easily move the Golden Throne? Can the Imperials addapt their own technology to keep him in stasis? WIll he personaly but into the whole thing in some way?

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2005-01-14 10:19am

Horus had to go for a ground assault because the Palace was shielded from obital bombardment. I quoted it a few pages back.

Lancer · Post by **Lancer** » 2005-01-14 10:39am

Horus had fully half of the 20 space marine chapters at his disposal (this is before the 1000 marines per chapter limit established by the Codex), half the AdMech, and was hosting a bit of all four of the chaos gods at the time. Meaning that he effectively had half of the entire IoM and powers to rival the emperor.

Against Earth at that time, with just two space marine chapters, the Imerial Fists and Blood Angels, two more on the way (the loyal half of the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves, both of whom arrive after the Emperors fight w/ Horus), and it's planetary and orbital defenses.

Since then, the entire Sol system has been much more heavily fortified. That many imperial ships appearing out of nowhere are going to get shot at with everything the local defenses have.

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2005-01-14 10:50am

Against Earth at that time, with just two space marine chapters, the Imerial Fists and Blood Angels, two more on the way (the loyal half of the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves, both of whom arrive after the Emperors fight w/ Horus), and it's planetary and orbital defenses.

Tsk, you forgot the White Scars, they also defended the Palace and seized the Lions Gate Spaceport from the invading traitors, drastically cutting down Horus's re-enforcement rate. The Great Khan would be very angry with you.[/quote]

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2005-01-14 10:57am

Also, the Night Lords did not fight at Earth, they were off going all Marlon Brando. Also IIRC the Alpha Leigon didn't fight on Earth, they went to attack the Ultramarines. And the only half the Word Bearers where on Earth, the rest where sent to assault the Ultramarines.

IRCC the Attacking Legions were:

Sons of Horus
Iron Warriors
Death Guard
World Eaters
Emperors Children
Word Bearers (some)
Thousand Sons (whotever escaped the sacking of Prospero)

We don't know what happened to the two deleted Legions, but when talking about the Heresy most sources say that Horus corrupted half the Legions. So that could mean that one more Legion was present, but we don't know anything about them.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2005-01-14 10:57am

'Any and all Imperial technology is available.' Mean the Imperium technology that created the Primarchs, for one? Piss off, we're looking at actual assetes, not things that could, given a few years, be purpose-built IF it hadn't been smashed. Now, personally, I think the SWers could win this, but mindless fapping at Star Wars while simultaneously hypocritically yelling at anyone promoting anouther universe pisses me the fuck off.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-01-14 12:57pm

Chris OFarrell wrote:Then you can send in the toughest and most powerful units enmass. Dark Trooper battledroids for example are nothing to take lightly.

Kyle Katarn killed them all. They are nonexistant.

They have weapons the equivilant of Starfighters and can take the same kind of punishment in return.

They are not. That's spacetroopers

They are expendable but are powerful enough that they can and will be able to fight and win.

They wouldn't be expendable if they existed.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2005-01-14 01:08pm

hmmm while Palpatines forces are invading the 40k verse whats to keep Chaos from going into this brand new universe and seeing what they can do there.