Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

[Gunhead]

My last question was specifically aimed at the threat of mutiny within IG but it's as I suspected it can be viewed as grimdark stupid or something else. Yeah, I'm pretty firmly in the stupid grimdark camp.
I was musing about the highly variable numbers given on regiment sizes, and how the current explanation is just stupid, I did come up with a more rational way of having large variations in regiment size. If regiment size is tied to space transportability, it really measures mass and volume not how many men you have. Simply put, if your transport ship is built to transport two regiments, in theory any two regiments will fit inside with their equipment and consumables for a set period of time regardless of type or specific equipment. I have some very vague recollections that someone somewhere wrote stuff like this in the fluff, but I have no idea who or where. It could even be something really old, and I mean original Rogue Trader old.

-Gunhead

[Purple]

The whole all regiments are equal thing is completely reasonable. You just ain't thinking about it the right way. Look at it like this. You have two scout. One if a rough rider regiment with various light vehicles or what ever. The other is pure light infantry that specializes in covert ops. But in the end, both do the same job. And on the level where all are seen as equal it really does not matter which one is chosen. All that matters is that the force has a scout regiment. You pick the one that is available and convenient at the time.

[Gunhead]

The whole all regiments are equal thing is completely reasonable. You just ain't thinking about it the right way. Look at it like this. You have two scout. One if a rough rider regiment with various light vehicles or what ever. The other is pure light infantry that specializes in covert ops. But in the end, both do the same job. And on the level where all are seen as equal it really does not matter which one is chosen. All that matters is that the force has a scout regiment. You pick the one that is available and convenient at the time.

Yeah, but that's a bit different from one regiment having 3000 men and some other having 120 000 if both are some type of regular infantry. It doesn't make any sense logistically or organizationally.
Munitorum must enforce certain organizational standards or their already silly "lets glue together troops from all around" system falls apart faster than you can say "Clusterfuck".

-Gunhead

[Black Admiral]

There is a mention in The 13th Black Crusade of varying grades of regiments; depends on the type of regiment (i.e., light role infantry, armoured cavalry, artillery, etc.), when they were founded (the required TO&Es seems to undergo periodic revisions; there's a mention of a "revised 454.M41 standard" for Mechanised Infantry), and so on.

[Zinegata]

The whole all regiments are equal thing is completely reasonable. You just ain't thinking about it the right way. Look at it like this. You have two scout. One if a rough rider regiment with various light vehicles or what ever. The other is pure light infantry that specializes in covert ops. But in the end, both do the same job. And on the level where all are seen as equal it really does not matter which one is chosen. All that matters is that the force has a scout regiment. You pick the one that is available and convenient at the time.

That falls apart very rapidly when you start looking at more radically different regiments. Tank regiments can't do what a scout regiment does. Mech infantry have different operating procedures than line infantry. Heavy infantry have weapons and specializations not found in light infantry.

And even if a regiment can technically do two different tasks, it doesn't mean it can do it very well. In Necropolis for instance the Ghosts actually lose very heavily - nearly half of their troops - as they're not exactly well-suited for a city fight. By contrast, Narmenian Armoured losses were light (they were employed in armour vs armour engagements, where they excelled), while the Volpone were about the only other regiment to survive the battle at all due to the heavy armor and weapons of their infantry.

Plus, it's pretty that they won't necessarily fit in the same container for transport purposes. Trying to cram 120,000 infantry into a space meant for 100 tanks may prove hilariously bad when the tank-carrying ship turns out to not have proper facilities to carry people at all.

Black Admiral->

I got the impression that there was some effort to standardize regiments in the previous Codex, but that seems to have been thrown out in the new one.

[Simon_Jester]

I really don't think the "regiment is regiment is regiment" mindset is pervasive enough to be a major problem for the Imperium. Sure, there may be a few cases of black comedy in the fluff where a horde of conscript infantry is sent to do an armored regiment's job and winds up with massively overcrowded barracks spaces and so on. But I don't think we should consider that the template for normal Imperial operations, any more than we assume the average Warp communication is like that one time a Tallarn regiment got dispatched to answer a distress call that turned out to be its own distress call, the message having been received before it was transmitted. Such things may happen, but that doesn't mean they're normal.

A large Imperial force will consist of many regiments drawn from many places. A typical statement of a senior Imperium general seems to be less like "I have twenty regiments of light infantry, which is totally equivalent to twenty regiments of artillery" and more like:

I have at my command an entire battle group of the Imperial Guard. Fifty regiments, including specialized drop troops, stealthers, mechanized formations, armored companies, combat engineers and mobile artillery. Over half a million fighting men and thirty thousand tanks and artillery pieces are mine to command. Emperor show mercy to the fool that stands against me, for I shall not.

At the very highest Munitorium level, regiments are treated as being more or less interchangeable. But at that level you're usually talking about troop movements measured in tens, hundreds, or thousands of millions. Crap like "move the 8th, 12th, 29th, and the 2783rd through 3027nd Army Groups from the left side of the galaxy to the right side." On that scale, most of the time it really would average out, and the question of which regiments to send where can be treated as a matter of discretionary potluck among the lower sector-level administrations.

Only rarely would people operating on that level even care about individual planets, except possibly when those planets are massive military meat-grinders like Cadia or Armageddon. Regiments are a lot smaller than planets; they're beneath the resolution of the top-level military bureaucracy in something the size of the Imperium.

[PainRack]

I shifted house, so, I can't find my copy of Gaunt Ghost Omnibus....

But here's a plausible reason for why Vraks exist. We know that long interstellar journeys are almost impossible without the light of the Astronimican, forcing other warp races like the Orks to travel small warp journeys.

The Imperium might have the capability to travel long distances due to the Astronomican, but this might still be more difficult than shorter distances. More importantly, such trips might not require a Navigator, a critical resource. Chartist ships traveling a fixed journey exist in the RPGs, and some of these ships do not have navigators.

[Zinegata]

I really don't think the "regiment is regiment is regiment" mindset is pervasive enough to be a major problem for the Imperium. Sure, there may be a few cases of black comedy in the fluff where a horde of conscript infantry is sent to do an armored regiment's job and winds up with massively overcrowded barracks spaces and so on. But I don't think we should consider that the template for normal Imperial operations, any more than we assume the average Warp communication is like that one time a Tallarn regiment got dispatched to answer a distress call that turned out to be its own distress call, the message having been received before it was transmitted. Such things may happen, but that doesn't mean they're normal.

I'd point you to several entries in the Imperial Guard timeline, which features regiments being sent to battlefields where they are grossly unsuited.

For instance, to counter a Necron threat, they sent an enormous force of horse cavalry, which subsequently made a massed charge up the "Lumen Valley", resulting in the biggest (and failed) cavalry charge in Imperial history. Sending cavalry (which had little heavy weaponry) against Necrons was crazy enough, but making them charge up a narrow space like a valley? Insanity.

The timeline also has other glaring instances, like a Tallarn tank regiment ending up as an infantry regiment because their fuel never arrived (You need fuel? I thought all regiments were the same!) albeit in this case they performed so well they were reclassified a "raider" regiment. Or how about sending dozens upon dozens of tank regiments against a Titan Legion, which resulted in their annihilation when Titans should really be fought using other Titans or orbital bombardment?

A large Imperial force will consist of many regiments drawn from many places. A typical statement of a senior Imperium general seems to be less like "I have twenty regiments of light infantry, which is totally equivalent to twenty regiments of artillery" and more like:

I have at my command an entire battle group of the Imperial Guard. Fifty regiments, including specialized drop troops, stealthers, mechanized formations, armored companies, combat engineers and mobile artillery. Over half a million fighting men and thirty thousand tanks and artillery pieces are mine to command. Emperor show mercy to the fool that stands against me, for I shall not.

Here's the thing though: If you get a ton of regiments randomly, chances are you'll get some infantry, some tank, and some artillery, giving you a "balanced" mix. So it may seem to make sense.

But that's not really how the Imperium should fight if it wants to win. If I was fighting the Tau, I wouldn't want a lot of mech forces. The Tau have superior anti-tank weaponry.

What I'd deploy against them is massed infantry. The 120K man regiments. Because the Tau don't have artillery. A hyper-power railgun shot may instantly kill a man, but losing one man when you have 120K soldiers is better than losing one tank out of 100.

A proper force allocation based on the threats at hand would result in the Imperium winning signigicantly more battles; as opposed to simply getting regiments randomly and going "Yay! We have a combined-armed force!" because you drafted enough regiments. Sometimes you don't want that - you need to be infantry-heavy in some cases, and tank-heavy in others. Likewise, if the draft screws you over (You get all-cavalry when you're fighting Necrons) then you're screwed spectacularly.

At the very highest Munitorium level, regiments are treated as being more or less interchangeable. But at that level you're usually talking about troop movements measured in tens, hundreds, or thousands of millions. Crap like "move the 8th, 12th, 29th, and the 2783rd through 3027nd Army Groups from the left side of the galaxy to the right side." On that scale, most of the time it really would average out, and the question of which regiments to send where can be treated as a matter of discretionary potluck among the lower sector-level administrations.

Only rarely would people operating on that level even care about individual planets, except possibly when those planets are massive military meat-grinders like Cadia or Armageddon. Regiments are a lot smaller than planets; they're beneath the resolution of the top-level military bureaucracy in something the size of the Imperium.

But that actually demonstrates why the regimental organization does not work. If you're saying a regiment is too small to do a job at the strategic level, then the basic unit of the Imperial Guard should not be the regiment; it should be the Army Group. But the Guard insists on operating from a regimental level, and army groups are adhoc formations at best.

If you're going to be fighting as an army group 95% of the time, then regiments should already be assigned permanently to specific army groups. Because it will be hard for a regiment to keep dealing with newcomers. If the 90th Cadian Infantry worked well with the 17th Pardus Armored, you want to keep them working together, instead of suddenly shipping the 90th Cadian off somewhere else and make them work with the 10th Vitrian Mech. It's simply logic and common sense.

[Raxmei]

I don't think you're being fair to your examples. It isn't exactly fair to call the charge at Lumen Valley "failed" when that battle was the decisive victory that finally drove the Necrons from the planet. It may have been "ill-fated" but that's in the sense that they took heavy losses while achieving their objectives. Describing the result of the battle of Planus Steppes as simply the annihilation of numerous IG tank companies also neglects a significant part of the outcome of that battle: the near-total annihilation of a renegade Titan legio. The Imperium would consider that a very good outcome, destroying numerous enemy Titans without having to wait for friendly Titans to become available and losing only comparatively replaceable tank units. Those battles are Imperial triumphs, not the best evidence that the Imperium's stupidity is hurting it.

[Zinegata]

I don't think you're being fair to your examples. It isn't exactly fair to call the charge at Lumen Valley "failed" when that battle was the decisive victory that finally drove the Necrons from the planet. It may have been "ill-fated" but that's in the sense that they took heavy losses while achieving their objectives.

You miss the point.

The point is that the heavy losses could have been avoided. It's no different from Chenkov's stupidity of sending massed infantrymen into melee against the Tyranids, when the Guard is bad at melee while the Tyranids are melee specialists and recycle the corpses of dead Guardsmen to make more troops.

Sending troops to die in enormous numbers when you can have much lower casualties (and a better kill ratio) using some other kind of troop is basic strategy. You do not send lightly armed cavalry against an enemy that needs to be slain using heavy weapons. You do not send Guardsmen with bayonets against Xeno lifeforms who were bred for melee. That's just stupid.

[Simon_Jester]

I'd point you to several entries in the Imperial Guard timeline, which features regiments being sent to battlefields where they are grossly unsuited.

For instance, to counter a Necron threat, they sent an enormous force of horse cavalry, which subsequently made a massed charge up the "Lumen Valley", resulting in the biggest (and failed) cavalry charge in Imperial history. Sending cavalry (which had little heavy weaponry) against Necrons was crazy enough, but making them charge up a narrow space like a valley? Insanity.

Hm. You have a point- although I'll note that the stupidity of sending the wrong troops to the battle is made at a very different level from the stupidity of sending them into the attack.

The timeline also has other glaring instances, like a Tallarn tank regiment ending up as an infantry regiment because their fuel never arrived (You need fuel? I thought all regiments were the same!) albeit in this case they performed so well they were reclassified a "raider" regiment. Or how about sending dozens upon dozens of tank regiments against a Titan Legion, which resulted in their annihilation when Titans should really be fought using other Titans or orbital bombardment?

Personally I suspect the 5th Edition Guard Codex timeline of being black comedy, of the sort I described above- I don't take it as representative of the Imperial norm because if it was, the Imperium would have been conquered millenia ago.

Tank regiments against Titans isn't necessarily so stupid- Titans can be and have been killed by massed armored and artillery attacks; it depends on the details at the tactical level. Also, the Guard does not have control over either the Titan legions or orbital bombardment assets; sending in armor against Titans at least means your units are mobile enough to engage the enemy and can't be totally obliterated by massed antipersonnel fire from the Titan's secondary weapons.

Here's the thing though: If you get a ton of regiments randomly, chances are you'll get some infantry, some tank, and some artillery, giving you a "balanced" mix. So it may seem to make sense.

But that's not really how the Imperium should fight if it wants to win. If I was fighting the Tau, I wouldn't want a lot of mech forces. The Tau have superior anti-tank weaponry.

What I'd deploy against them is massed infantry. The 120K man regiments. Because the Tau don't have artillery. A hyper-power railgun shot may instantly kill a man, but losing one man when you have 120K soldiers is better than losing one tank out of 100.

That's a good point. I strongly suspect that this is sometimes done- but it certainly isn't done as often as a rational Imperial would want.

But that actually demonstrates why the regimental organization does not work. If you're saying a regiment is too small to do a job at the strategic level, then the basic unit of the Imperial Guard should not be the regiment; it should be the Army Group. But the Guard insists on operating from a regimental level, and army groups are adhoc formations at best.

True. Although sometimes that seems to hold true within a campaign (and Imperial campaigns are often multi-year affairs)... yeah, I think you're right on this one.

Part of the problem is just the desire to write serial novels featuring Imperial protagonists. Gaunts' Ghosts seldom fight alongside the same regiment twice, and there's a literary reason for that- Abnett is showing off the diversity of the Imperial armed forces. Realistically it would make total sense to pair the Ghosts permanently with the units they've worked well with, and again, that isn't done nearly as often as a rational Imperial would want.

You miss the point.

The point is that the heavy losses could have been avoided. It's no different from Chenkov's stupidity of sending massed infantrymen into melee against the Tyranids, when the Guard is bad at melee while the Tyranids are melee specialists and recycle the corpses of dead Guardsmen to make more troops.

Sending troops to die in enormous numbers when you can have much lower casualties (and a better kill ratio) using some other kind of troop is basic strategy. You do not send lightly armed cavalry against an enemy that needs to be slain using heavy weapons. You do not send Guardsmen with bayonets against Xeno lifeforms who were bred for melee. That's just stupid.

These things are true.

However, in other cases the argument isn't so solid. Sending tanks against Titans leads to very heavy losses among the tanks... but arguably it really is worth trading dozens of tanks for one Titan. A Titan weighs about as much as a hundred normal tanks, has firepower far in excess of any normal tank, and is immensely more difficult to replace since only a relative handful of forge worlds bother to make the things at all while there are probably thousands of major tank-factory planets in the Imperium.

Now, sending in regiments of superheavy armor (Baneblades, or the 'tank destroyer' variant thereof) would be better, but those are relatively rare and there can easily be deployment issues- if you can't ship enough Baneblades in to fight the enemy Titans within X weeks, you may not be able to engage them at all because they might have redeployed off planet before your forces even arrive.

Using your own Titan units would be best... but the Guard doesn't have those, and may not have been able to arrange Titan support from the Adeptus Mechanicus in time to get that working.

[Connor MacLeod]

just to let people know I'm probably goign to start throwing another post so I can finish this and move onto 6. I really want to close out IA before I start the FFG stuff because thats much bigger, but I'm still less than halfway through (although after Vraks they mostly get smaller so that isn't as big an issue, I may just lump 8-11 in one thread for that reason.)

Also I'm a bit curious as to which sources Zinegata is specifically using to come to his conclusons.

[Zinegata]

All of the above cases (cavalry in Lumen Valley, tanks vs Titans, Chenkov sending infantry vs Tyranids) are from IG 5th edition Codex's timeline.

Now, I'm probably going to hear more arguments about how it's propaganda or black comedy, but Chenkov seriously gets medals and commendations for his stupidity of sending infantry into melee against Tyranids. That shows that it's not merely written for comedic purposes, but this kind of stupidity is seriously encouraged and endorsed by the Imperium.

You can't claim that the IG values deploying its forces intelligently when they are actively commending people who commit boneheaded moves like this.

The Guard only fights well when it follows its Dawn of War 2 maxim - "I'm not afraid to spend lives but I refuse to waste them". What Chenkov did was a huge waste and yet his reward is medals. That's indefensible.

Hm. You have a point- although I'll note that the stupidity of sending the wrong troops to the battle is made at a very different level from the stupidity of sending them into the attack.

Yes, but in the case of Lumen what else could the cavalry do? Their ONLY weapon that can kill Necrons is the explosive lance - necessiating a cavalry charge regardless of the terrain. The ground commander had no way of retrieving the situation once the boneheads at the strategic level gave him horse cavalry to fight Necrons.

Tank regiments against Titans isn't necessarily so stupid- Titans can be and have been killed by massed armored and artillery attacks;

... but arguably it really is worth trading dozens of tanks for one Titan.

Except that the timeline mentions not only the loss of lots of regular tanks, but also a huge number of super-heavy detachments as well.

Trading tanks for Titans is okay. Trading huge numbers of tanks and super-heavies is not.

[Zinegata]

Finally, regarding the "right" way to kill Titans - sending massed armor against them is stupid - super-heavy or not. Heck, sending massed "anything" against them is stupid. The virtue of Titans is their mobility, firepower, and psychological effect. We see in Titanicus that Titans are fast enough that they can sneak up on a tank company and obliterate it before they realize what's happening.

The way to kill them is small ground teams directing orbital fire. Because while Titans can easily detect a huge formation of tanks, it's much harder for it to detect an infantry squad with an orbital bombardment beacon. And even if they obliterate a team, you're forcing the Titans to employ overkill-level weapons to wipe out a mere infantry squad.

The only argument against this is that it will likely leave the planet a smouldering wreck. But you're gonna scorch the earth anyway to destroy them even if you use ground weapons or Titans. Might as well do it safely from orbit instead of wasting hundreds of tanks that could be used elsewhere to much greater effect.

[Purple]

You are missing the point here Z. Losses are irrelevant. Cost to effect ratio is irrelevant. Wasted lives or what ever are irrelevant. The IOM has plenty of troops and material to throw around, forget, misplace, lose due to clerical error, find again, lose again, get killed etc. without even noticing it. From the IOM perspective all that exists is the objective. Be that to destroy a titan legion, take a planet or squash a small flower. And as long as that objective is achieved the battle is a victory regardless of the cost. They quite literally have the resources to say that with a strait face. Loosing a billion men to kill a flower or knock over a tea pot? Sure, why not. It's not like a billion or two are actually statistically significant enough to even be listed as casualty reports. Loosing a billion or two men in the first 15 minutes of work? Just another non eventful boring day in the office. The IOM has such manpower that loosing a billion men is like a very, very rich person loosing a grain of sand from the sand pit on his massive golf course. Except that he could actually conceivably somehow notice it. They won't. And when you get to that point, than the whole wasted lives stance falls apart massively.

[Raxmei]

The Imperium's so stupid, look at this list of decisive Imperial victories. Anyway, forest for trees. What you're proposing isn't basic strategy and is in fact a pretty damn stupid way to do things. You really don't want distant managers micromanaging the force composition on individual fronts. That'll just lead to idiocy like refusing to send tanks just because they're expecting to fight Tau. That's how amateurs tailor their army lists on the tabletop but it's no way to run a war. The Allies in WWII didn't stop sending tanks just because the Germans were really good at antitank warfare. The mission called for tanks (along with everything else) so tanks were used even in the face of heavy tank losses.

The most basic strategy is to mass as much as you can as fast as you can at what is hopefully a good location. Attempting to micromanage your composition is the enemy of the most basic principle of strategy. Go ahead and idle your rough riders/armored battlegroups/conscript infantry for a month or two while you assemble the army you think is best for whatever the situation is and see how long it takes to get executed. The best that can be done under the logistical constraints facing the IG is to put what you have in the hands of the tactical commanders and have them use what they have to the best of their ability.

Now, ideally the basic functional unit of the Imperial Guard would incorporate at least a little combined arms. IG regiments have historically been portrayed intentionally having excessively homogenous composition and the inherent difficulties of that approach are acknowledged. Regiments normally shuffle units between each other when given the chance, which they don't always have. I'm inclined to believe that this almost universally common nearly indispensible practice defeats the whole point behind not organizing combined arms regiments. In any case I'd think the loss of Munitorum support would be the most critical difficulty facing renegade Guard units.

[Zinegata]

You are missing the point here Z. Losses are irrelevant. Cost to effect ratio is irrelevant. Wasted lives or what ever are irrelevant. The IOM has plenty of troops and material to throw around, forget, misplace, lose due to clerical error, find again, lose again, get killed etc. without even noticing it. From the IOM perspective all that exists is the objective.

No, my point is that this very mindset is what leads to massive waste. Only an idiot believes that the only thing that matters is the "objective". A true strategist would realize that there are many other objectives besides holding ground - such as preserving your forces to fight future battles.

Moreover, the age of the Imperium having numerical superiority may not last forever. Got the 'nid fleets coming already, and we know the Orks can most likely wipe out the Imperium if they actually stopped fighting each other and united into one huge force.

It is therefore an indefensible mindset to continue believing that losses are irrelevant for the Imperium.

[Zinegata]

The Imperium's so stupid, look at this list of decisive Imperial victories.

Which victories?

I mean this in all seriousness. The Imperium has seriously lost every single major ground campaign they've fought recently.

Armageddon? Orks won. The planet is no longer producing as it should, and its only purpose is to draw Orks in to prevent them from attacking other planets.

Damocles? Total disaster against a numerically inferior Tau army.

Taros? Same as above.

Vraks? Complete and utter waste of lives. They "recaptured" the armory which was then subsequently abandoned because it was completely and utterly ruined, and all the stocks were destroyed or taken over by the enemy.

13th Black Crusade? Imperium got curb-stomped on the ground and the only reason it wasn't a blow out was because Failbaddon lost orbital superiority.

Anyway, forest for trees. What you're proposing isn't basic strategy and is in fact a pretty damn stupid way to do things. You really don't want distant managers micromanaging the force composition on individual fronts. That'll just lead to idiocy like refusing to send tanks just because they're expecting to fight Tau.

No, that's the exact kind of idiocy I'm railing against.

Only an idiot would send massed tanks against Tau. They have the best anti-tank weapons in the game. The Tau _want_ you to send tanks against them.

That's how amateurs tailor their army lists on the tabletop but it's no way to run a war. The Allies in WWII didn't stop sending tanks just because the Germans were really good at antitank warfare. The mission called for tanks (along with everything else) so tanks were used even in the face of heavy tank losses.

You're an idiot.

The Allies did in fact stop using massive all-tank formations when they realized all-tank formations would only get massacred by massed anti-tank guns. That was why the US Armored Division was reorganized from having three tank regiments, to only two tank regiments supported by a mechanized infantry regiment and several batteries of mobile artillery. The Germans in fact changed their force composition much earlier because they realized that only idiots send massed tanks against massed ATGs.

Any army that fails to adjust its TO&E in the face of actual battlefield threats is wasting lives. Stupidly. That is the point, which you fail to grasp.

The most basic strategy is to mass as much as you can as fast as you can at what is hopefully a good location. Attempting to micromanage your composition is the enemy of the most basic principle of strategy.

Only an idiot would think that massing the correct kind of force is contrary to the objective of massing overwhelming force.

You ARE aware that the US Victory Program for instance did in fact define a specific number of infantry divisions and tank divisions? And that the number of tank divisions ordered decreased as the US Army realized that it didn't actually need so many tanks?

Proving AGAIN that only idiots who don't grasp strategy make statements like "Mass your forces! Don't bother with composition!"

And again, only a moron would send infantry into melee against Xenos creatures that are specifically bred for melee. Tyranids eat up Terminators in melee. That's how much they want to bring the fight to knife-fighting range. Only an idiot or the lazy obliges by doing what the enemy wants.

Go ahead and idle your rough riders/armored battlegroups/conscript infantry for a month or two while you assemble the army you think is best for whatever the situation is and see how long it takes to get executed. The best that can be done under the logistical constraints facing the IG is to put what you have in the hands of the tactical commanders and have them use what they have to the best of their ability.

And again, despite your claims to grasping strategy you only demonstrate what an idiot you are.

Rough rider regiments not sent to kill themselves against Necrons can be sent to deal with other threats. Like say against insurgents or rebels in a world with a paucity of fuel resources. Where they'd actually be effective and stand a chance of surviving to be used elsewhere.

Refusing to send cavalry against Necrons is not the same as saying they should remain idle.

Now, ideally the basic functional unit of the Imperial Guard would incorporate at least a little combined arms. IG regiments have historically been portrayed intentionally having excessively homogenous composition and the inherent difficulties of that approach are acknowledged. Regiments normally shuffle units between each other when given the chance, which they don't always have. I'm inclined to believe that this almost universally common nearly indispensible practice defeats the whole point behind not organizing combined arms regiments. In any case I'd think the loss of Munitorum support would be the most critical difficulty facing renegade Guard units.

Except that having each Guard regiment have a handful of tanks, a handful of mech, and a handful of everything is a terrible idea in real life. Your organization is essentially that of the French Army in 1940 - parcel out tanks to infantry units that will do very little good.

For someone who keeps talking about real-world strategy, everything you have proposed is the strategy adopted by the losers.

[Simon_Jester]

You are missing the point here Z. Losses are irrelevant. Cost to effect ratio is irrelevant. Wasted lives or what ever are irrelevant. The IOM has plenty of troops and material to throw around, forget, misplace, lose due to clerical error, find again, lose again, get killed etc. without even noticing it. From the IOM perspective all that exists is the objective. Be that to destroy a titan legion, take a planet or squash a small flower. And as long as that objective is achieved the battle is a victory regardless of the cost. They quite literally have the resources to say that with a strait face.

No they don't.

That kind of thinking makes the difference between an Imperium which is fighting for its life and dying by inches (the one that actually exists in 40k) and an Imperium which is competently run and wins its wars (the one the Emperor himself had in 30k).

I'm sorry, but this is just such utterly transparently stupid bullshit-fake-strategy that it reflects badly on the person who proposes it seriously. I'd like to think you were being sarcasti. But you keep coming up with this kind of absurd self-congratulatory "look how callous I am have I impressed you with how STRONG and PRAGMATIC I am yet?" nonsense. And it's starting to creep me out.

More seriously, the Imperium does not have anywhere near infinite resources compared to its real enemies.

Think about orks. Sure, the Imperium controls much of the galaxy. So do the orks- so the numbers more or less balance out; you can't beat orks with human wave attacks of guys with bayonets, because the orks are better at that kind of fight than you.

Think about Chaos. Chaos is created from within the Imperium's own ranks, a more or less fixed percentage of Imperium strength defects to Chaos every year. And that percentage increases when the Imperium acts in a more bloodthirsty way that inspires more despair and alienation from its citizens. Human wave attacks and factories that kill millions a year in industrial accidents play right into the hands of Khorne and Nurgle.

Think about the Tyranids. Games Workshop has come right out and fucking said that the Imperium would basically have to draft every man, woman, and child in three quarters of their space to resist the Tyranid main fleet. That's a pretty sharp limit on their resources, don't you think? Suddenly that whole "unlimited manpower" bullshit becomes even more blatant bullshit.

For the Imperium to pat itself on the back about how it's so big it can afford to write off a billion men to squash a small flower is ridiculous if you actually think or are even slightly aware of the fact that your enemies exist. Which is pretty much a precondition for being able to fight the damn war.

[Simon_Jester]

No, that's the exact kind of idiocy I'm railing against.

Only an idiot would send massed tanks against Tau. They have the best anti-tank weapons in the game. The Tau _want_ you to send tanks against them.

They also have excellent infantry small arms, for which having vehicles like APCs makes a lot of sense if you don't want your troops cut up from long range. Sure, some of those APCs get railgunned- but you have a lot of them, and the Tau don't have that many railgun units present on a given battlefield.

You also need mechanization to counter the Tau's superior mobility. A foot-slogging conscript army won't be able to get and stay close enough to a Tau force to accomplish anything. Sure, it works on the tabletop, but I don't think it's a viable strategy in a 'realistic' version of the setting.

So you still end up needing a balance. Sure, using waves of Imperial armor to counter waves of Tau armor (I include battlesuits as light armor) is messy. But sending waves of unsupported foot infantry and towed heavy artillery against Tau air cavalry is equally messy, because the Tau can snipe and harass from long range and force your troops to disperse while they retain the ability to concentrate at will.

Massed infantry only works against Tau on the tabletop because the tabletop represents a pitched battle small enough that an infantry assault to get into close quarters can actually accomplish something. If the battlefield were as large as a realistic theater of operations (say, several hundred feet across) the Tau would be completely screwing over your infantry/artillery force by outmaneuvering it with Devilfish and whatnot.

The ideal balance for fighting Tau is different from the ideal balance for fighting orks, but removing entire categories of military hardware that are less useful against Enemy X is a bad idea if Enemy X has even a slightly combined arms force of their own.

Also, remember that an army transferred to fight the Tau may wind up fighting Tyranids or orks instead- because there's plenty of those aliens around in the area the Tau live in. So refusing to send armored regiments off to the sectors around Tau space is dangerous, if the troops there might be caught without armored support against a different opponent.

And again, only a moron would send infantry into melee against Xenos creatures that are specifically bred for melee. Tyranids eat up Terminators in melee. That's how much they want to bring the fight to knife-fighting range. Only an idiot or the lazy obliges by doing what the enemy wants.

Agreed.

Except that having each Guard regiment have a handful of tanks, a handful of mech, and a handful of everything is a terrible idea in real life. Your organization is essentially that of the French Army in 1940 - parcel out tanks to infantry units that will do very little good.

For someone who keeps talking about real-world strategy, everything you have proposed is the strategy adopted by the losers.

Actually, the combination works very well. You want some all-armored formations (for increased mobility and concentrated firepower). And you want some formations of infantry supported by armor, with the armor integrated along with the infantry at the brigade or division level. Note that a typical 40k infantry "regiment" is the size of a modern brigade or division, too.

This is one of the reason Shermans were effective tanks in WWII even though they were tactically weaker than many of the stronger German tanks. There were more Shermans, so they could be parceled out along the line safely and used to support infantry operations. Thus, while occasionally you'd have a battle where one Tiger tank battered its way through everything the Americans could throw at it, you also had many battles where a German infantry company was utterly defeated because it ran into an American infantry company that had a few tanks supporting it... and the Germans could not spare any armor support for their own infantry.

It's not as simple as "all tanks should be concentrated at a single point." That only works as a breakthrough tactic, and if the enemy is mobile and flexible enough to counter your breakthroughs you can't win just by breaking their line at a single point.

[Connor MacLeod]

So yeah, last update of IA5. Done at last.




Page 90

These [Siege] regiments are organised and formed to engage in attritional trench warfare.

..
The guardsman himself is the primary weapon; each able to maintain disicpline and act in accordance with orders regardless of the odds, casualties taken or the travail of the battlefield itself. The fundamental doctrine of the siege regiment is to push forward at all costs, to take the fight to the enemy and to kill until no enemy remains. Armour, heavy weaponry, and field artillery such as mortars are extnesively deployd in supporting roles. Reliance on relatively light transport vehicels is seen as a liability, particularily when engaging prepared positions where large quantities of heavy weapons are present. As a result, the usually commonplace Chimera is largely abandoned in favour of the much heavier and more durable Gorgon armoured assault transport where needed for direct breaching attacks and the lighter Centaur for rapid deployment of mobile artillery and grenadier forces. Armour and tanks utilised by the Death Korps will normally be heavilly modifed to better cope with extreme hazardous terrain and prolonged exposure to envriomental damage.

..

man portable heavy weapons whose deployment can stagger the pace of advance, are usually concentrated in separate detachments to avoid this difficulty. The firepower of these heavy weapons quads can then be focused to support the infantry and protect the flanks of an assault force, as well as quickly deploy to defend or fortify vital trench positions against counter attacks.

More on siege regiments nad their love of trench warfare, and siege regiment doctrine, including why they don't bother mucking around with Chimeras. Not sure I buy it.

Page 90

Where several siege regiments are grouped together for the same front, they form a line korps, with several line korps form an army. Regiments may also serve in assault korps, with extra tanks and Gorgons to enhance offensives and exploit breakthroughs.

Breakdown of a Korps and the difference between line and assault korps.


Page 90

The best strategic use of a siege regiment is a simple and unsubtle battering ram of manpower.

Mention of "columns" and "human wave" go without saying. They attribute a significant psyhcological effect to this. Although at this point I'm not sure we haven't steppd back from WW1 back into Napoleonic warfare lol.

Page 90

Unlike many other regiments that draw on a long-standing militarised culture (such as the Mordians or Jantines for example), Krieg itself has no standing aristorcracy or hereditary officer class. This means that the majority of the officer cadre has been promoted throught eh ranks thanks to a mixture of ability, seniority, and often, by dint of simple survival. As venterans of the Death Korps way of war, they coldly regard casualties iwth no more concern than another commander might view a tally of expended ammunition stores, and their attitudes towards warfare are almost mechanical in nature.

One positive aspect of the Krieg approach I suppose, they're more.. "Democratic" about their office corps (no pun intended.) RAising up from the ranks seems to be accepted practice (unlike other places.)

Page 90

This has in the past led to morale problems (and very rarely evne outright mutiny) where senior Krieg officers have been placed in charge of other non-Krieg regiments in a wider theatre of war.

- the nature and mentality of Krieg regiments can cause problems with other regiments due to differences of doctrine and mindset. (To put it bluntly, other regiments don't think much of being regarded as mere statistics.)

Page 90

Owing to the relatively low rates of infraction and morale problems among Death Korps regiments they [Commissars] more often find themselves employed in reining in any excessive 'zeal' on the part of the troops, and act as tactical advisors rather than enforcers of discipline. Indeed, a Commissar is oftne well placed to become a voice of restraint for Death Korps officers, reinforcing the wider strategic goals of the war-zone over the short-term victories through expenditure of men and material that might be needed later.

Commissars and the Krieg regiments. Hilariously, this means Krieg forces out-Commisar the Commisars (possibly even worse than Terrax guard, which are baiscally suppposed to be a regiment of faux-commisars) forcing commissars to emphasize more of their advisory role and actually reign in the Krieg.

Also note the "material expenditure" alongside men. I doubt the Munitorum likes THAT aspect, given what technophiles they are (kill off all the troops you want, but save the plasma gun!)

That said, they sometimes do need commissars in case the Krieg do break.

Page 90

Further, in theatres of war where Death Korps regiments must fight alongside other Imperial formations, the Commissars attacehd to Death Korps staff also find it prudent to act as the liaison btween regimental commands where needed, as well as keeping a sharp eye that any acrimony between the Death Korps and other Imperial Guardsmen deployed to the same areas does not become a problem. In order to prevent potential difficulties arising, the iundividual Commissar sassigned to Death Korps regiments have a tendency to be more politically minded than most, and often go on to serve with other troublesome regiments such as feral worlders or forces raised on Eccleisarchy worlds where fanatacism runs high.

Again, its hilarious how the Commissars have to interact with the Krieg forces, and how Krieg's approach and demeanor tend to clash with the rest of the guard. Oh, and politics. Note how the Krieg forces are considered good practice for dealing with feral worlders or Ecclesiarchy-drawn fanatics (Frateris?) Apparently hive worlders are better than all of those.

Page 90

Each Death Korps soldier si fully trained to the standard expected for combat-readiness set down by the Departmento Munitorum. Particular emphasis is placed on hazardous enviroment survival and endurance, and physical and mental resilience.

Considering the Munitorum has hefy jurisdiciton over them, big shock.

Page 90

Each Death Korps soldier is also proficient in the use of all basic Imperial Guard weaponry types, the use of grenades and explosives and the rapid and skilled construction of trench works and defences. Their hand to hand training is also exemplary, bayonet dirll being practised from childhood. Accuracy (while obviously desirable), is secondary in Death Korps weapons training to fire discipline; with the ability to maintain continuous fire en masse as part of an infantry formation considered to be of paramount importance.

Other :"specialist" traits of the Krieg regiments, I imagine. Probably why they dont bother much with marksman or snipers, either. Contrast with say, the Cadians or tallarn, known for liking marksmen and snipers both.

Page 90-91

..they [Kriegers] have a tendency to be highly insular, unemotional and often taciturn to the point of silence outside their duties. They have a well earned reputation as grim and dour soldiers. The average Krieg soldier will also display a high degree of fatalism and an unusual morbidity of habit. Death Korps guardsmen are known to carry relics, ossuaries of bone or other memento-mori about their persons as a form of religious observance to honour the fallen. Unfortunately this psychology serves to foster isolationism (such as the fact they rarely remove their rebreather masks even when not in battle), often having the effect of generating suspifion and ill repute with other Imperial Guard regiments. The advantages of a Death Korps soldier to higher command are obvious; each is highly disciplined, self-sufficient, morally reliable and more than willing to die in service of the Emperor. It must be noted however that their unusual will to endure hardships can have the result that unless expressly ordered to do so, Death Korps will fight on against overwhelming odds until lost, even where tactically expedient withdrawl would be wiser.

The Krieger traits of high discipline, self-sufficiency, moral reliability and willingness to die in the Emperor's name are all treated as favorable qualities to higher command, but this makes them unpopular (or isolates them) with regard to other regiments. It also means that, unless ordered to, they may fight to the death (whereas even the Space Marines generally knwo better.) And further explains why they don't get along well with others.



Page 91

One of the most unusual features of the Death Korps regiments is the replacement of battlefield medics foudn in most Imperial Guard regiments with the individuals known as Quartermasters. The Quartermaster's role has its roots in Krieg's own war-torn past. In that merciless war the recovery of arms and wargear of the fallen was of premium importance, and field medicine and battlefield triage was a luxury that could be seldom afforded for the more seriously wounded (and aoften a torn enviroment seal meant slow lingering death in any case.) so it was that in Krieg's war a soldier that could not be readily brought back to the fray or at least retreat under his own power was considered a liability and to such unfortunates the 'blessings of the Emperor's peace' was given - an honourable field execution. This onerous task, along with the recovery ad redistribution of the fallen soldier's equipment was the responsibility of the Quartermaster cadre and remains so to the present day.

..

Quartermasters are given additional training in field medicine, basic tech-lore, and extensive indoctrination into Krieg's denomination of the Imperial Cult. In the modern Death Korps, in addition to the minsitration of emergency treatment to injured guardsmen and the redistribution of arms, the Quartermasters also assist in evaluating the progress of ongoing battles and relay this data to their officers and command. They perform this function by monitoring ammunition expenditures, rates of attrition, counting enemy guns and so forth.

Krieg Quartermasters are odd in that they serve both a logitsitical and medical role, stemming back from times when recovery of wargear and arms was of paramount importance and medical/surgical attention was a luxury. They generally salvage/recover and redistribute a fallen soldier's gear in such cases They also monitor ammo expenditures, attrition rates, counting enemy guns, and so on and relay this inforamtion to their superioris.

It is amusing to note that the Kriegers adhere to the oft-noted "Munitorum" strictures regarding equipment, and that this is to make them unusual among Guard regiments. Wanna bet on how much the Munitorum emphasized that in indoctrination?

PAge 91

A highly adapted form of the original Terran horse, ,this animal is now the product of extreme genetic engineering; tailored for strength, endurance and aggrerssion, with numerous additional bio-sculpted organs tha tallow them to survive on the most polluted and toxic battlefields unscathed. Vat-grown on Krieg under the auspices of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the animals are further augmented with sub-dermal organic armour, osmotic lungs, and a fully integrated drug injection system rigged iwth a potent mixture of stimulants, apin-blockers and palliatives.

The end result is that the Krieg steed is capable of incredible levels of endurance and enviormental tolerance. The Krieg steed is also a wepaon in its own right with its chemically enahnced aggrerssion centres triggered at the rider's comand, and virtually impossible to incapacitate short of massive bodily trauma.

Death Rider mounts. Death Riders serve both a recon and a shock-attack role.

Page 91

...their [Death Riders] inductees are chosen not only on the grounds of aptitude but also for independent thought and intiaitve - many future officers are drawn from teh ranks of their survivors.

...

Death Rider companies are used both for battlefield reconnaissance, replacing the Sentinel's traditional role in the Siege regiments, as well as shock troops, using their speeda nd impact to smash through enemy lines. They are commonly used in the role of reserves held back to break counter-attacks, or press a brekthrough themselves.

The Krieg dont make much use of Sentinels either, obviously. Whether their genetic uber-horses are an inherently better choice I am not sure.

Page 91

The Krieg regiments maintain and train a strong and sizable force of grenadiers, forming an elite force within the Death Korps. They are drawn from veterans and survivors of decimated squads and platoons.

..

Principally used by Death Korps regiments in a heavy infantry role to form the leading edge of assault waves and smash key enemym defence points during a wider attack, many grenadiers consider themselves already martyred in the Emperor's service and iwll not falter in their onslaught, regardles of the odds ranged against them.

Considering the attrtion rate of grenadiers its probably no surprise they have/need lots of them and elevate them from the ranks. They probably need them.

Page 91

Death Korps grenadiers are equipped with heavy carapace armour integrated into the standard Krieg wargear and are armed with turbo-discharge Hellguns, linked to a high-capacity power cell worn on the back. The yalso cary numerous anti-personal and anti-tank grenades as standard.

"turbo discharge" hellguns and carapace armour integrated into existing gear. This would suggest they don't nromally wear flak (or if they do the carapace complements it)

Page 91

Breaking with conventional Storm Trooper training, they are never dpeloyed by grav-chute, and instead often carry the brunt of an intiial advancee on foot, or as small tactical units in rapid moving Centaur carriers. Where this is the case, as well as a high proportion of special arms (such as flamers and melta-guns, etc.) they will also employ relatively unorthodox weapons such as heavy flamers in two man teams or the squad may carry an additional heavy stubber to increase their firepower. Fatality rates among the Death Korps grenadiers are very high, but it is considered an honour to be chosen to join their ranks.

Krieg Grenadiers, unlike other forces, also dont have use for gunships, grav chutes or chimeras, so the only concession is the centaur. Also note the special/heavy weapons selection

Page 94-95
- Infantry squad
Each Guardsman has a lasgun, 4 powerpacks, 1 frag and one entrenching tool. One trooper carries a vox caster. Another carries a special weapon (plasma gun in this case) in place of a lasgun. Also carries 2 hydrogen flasks for his weapon. 2 other guardsmen carry one hydrogen flask each (reloads for the special weapons trooper) All other troopers aside from the special weapon trooper, the vox trooper, and the two carrying hydrogen flasks carry krak grenades (6 total in other words.)

Page 94

This example shows a 'typical' issue of equipment, but extra ammunition, fragmentation grenades and krak grenades will be issued before attacks. Krak grenades are distributed throughout the suqad on a random basis depending on capability. Whilst the gunner carries most of the plasma gun's photonic hydrogen fuel flasks, extra flasks are distributed amongst squad members. All squad members, except the plasma gunner, also carry a bayonet along with their small entreching tool.

Page 95
Each infantry squad will have one of four special weapons for battlefield support - plasma gun, flamer, grenade launcher or meltagun.

Page 96
Heav yweapons squad - 3 teams per squad: 2 troopers, one heavy bolter, 2 lasgun, 2 lasgun powerpacks per trooper 2 heavy bolter ammo boxes, and 2 entrenching tools.

An interesting note is that there is a "senior guardsman" who is second in command in addition to the squad leader, and eigh tother guardsmen, hinting that the squad can be split up into two groups as depicted in novels.


Page 97

EAch [Heavy weapons] squad consists of 6 men, split into three two-man teams of a gunner and a loader.

..

a squad usually occupies a static position to provide ifre support and avoid difficult and tie consuming repositioning of the weapons.

Pretty standard IG formation.

Page 97

- Other heavy weapons listend include Autocannon, twin linked heavy stubbers, lascannon, and a mortar. Krieg mortars are the five-round launcher types similar to what the Elysiasn use, though its not specified whether they fire automatically or not. Probably not.

Page 98-99

Field artillery company

-Company HQ: 5 crew (command and staff) + centaur, Trojan communications vehicle, atlas engineerign and recovery vehicle, 3 Trojan Ammo carriers and trialers, 1 Trojan supply carrier and trailer.

Battery 1: 1 HQ (5 crew) and Centuar, 4 heavy mortars hooked up to Centaur tractor, 5 crew.

Battery 2&3: 1 HQ (5 crew) and Centuar, 4 Quad launcher and Centaur Tractor, 5 crew

Page 100

This is a theoretical organization. The exact distribution of heavy weapons will vary. The heavy weapons platoon does not fight as a single unit but is deployed as single squads or ad-hoc groups of squads as needed, often under the direct command of the company headquarters. The number of grenadier squads available to a company will vary.

Predictably true.

Page 100-101
Infantry company:

Company HQ: 5 crew, 1 Centuar

2 Grenadier squads, 10 men, 1 centaur (each)

10 platoons, each with 1 HQ squad of 5 men and one heavy weapon (varies), plus 6 squads of 10 men each.

1 Heavy weapons platoon, with HQ (5 men + 1 heavy weapon), 4 fire support squads (6 mens, 3 heavy weapon, either autocannon or heavy stubber or heavy bolter per squad), 2 anti tank squads (6 men and 3 lascannon per squad) and 2 mortar squads (6 men and 3 mortar per squad)

Page 101
Krieg company TO&E

Personnel:
1 Captain, 11 lieutenants, 75 Watchmasters, 653 other ranks, 740 men total

(note that 2 of the squad sin the company are Grenadier squads)

Vehicles: 3 Centaur carriers, 11 mortars

equipment: 9 lascannon, 8 heavy bolters, 8 heavy stubbers, 5 autocannons, 2 heavy flamers, 19 flamers, 19 grenade launchers, 18 lasma gun, 18 melta-guns, 18 hellguns, 712 lasguns, 32 laspistols.

Page 102

The Gorgon is a huge, heavily armoured transport vehicle used to carry a large number of assault troops into enemy front lines, before disgorging them directly into enemy positions. Generally only deployed during trench warfare...

..

Tactically, Gorgon assaults should only take place across a short distance.

..

A Gorgon can carry a full platoon in its open-topped hold, albeit in very cramped conditions.

Gorgon roles defined. I don't quite get the "short distance" bit. If they are meant to be used for brief times across short distances, how do they get them in place to begein with? how short a distance is short?


Page 102

The Gorgon is lightly armed, with heavy stubbers providing suppresing fire as the infantry disembark. Some Gorgons are fitted with additional sponsons to assist in this role, commonly these variants are equipped with multiple heavy bolters or mortars to lob shells into enemy trenches as the Gorgon approaches.

Gorgon armament.

Page 102

As a specialist vehicle, the Gorgon is only deployed for carefully selected missions, such as attacking heavily fortified enemy defenses, or delivering troops into a breach during a siege. They are not routinely deployed for front line operations unless to assist a major offensive.


..

Gorgons can also be used as an assault landing craft as they are amphibious and can cross rivers with little difficulty.

As a specialist armoured vehicle, the Gorgon is not common amongst Imperial Guard regiments. It is mostly widely used by siege regiments for trench warfare, but they are sometimes issued to armoured regiments and infantry reimgents when the demands of a campaign require...

Gorgons are a "specialist" vehicle which we remember are deployed mainly only in trench warfare situations. Which again indicates just how specialised that style of warfare is. This specialization is reinforced by the "gorgons issued sometimes to other regiments when campaign demand srequire" which means when trench warfare erupts, if it erupts.

Also note their amphibious capabilit.

PAge 103
Gorgon stats:

Mass: 220 tons, Length: 13.9m, Width 8.1m, height 4.9 m

Ground clearance: .74m

Max on road speed: 27 kph, Max off-road speed: 19 kph

Armament: 4 heavy stubbers (8000 rounds), 4 mortars (4 rounds of ammo)

Traverse 92 degrees, elevation -22 to +14 degrees (heavy stubbers probably)

Armour: 200mm superstructure, 180mm hull.


Page 105 - Gorgons can have remote control sponsons, suggesting some automation ca be used.

Page 106 -
Gorgons also have "Communications, sensors and nagivation systems" as well as electronics maintenance panels.

Page 109

The Centaur is a small utility vehicle, used in a wide variety of roles - as a command squad transport, communications vehicle, supply vehicle towing trialers, bust most commonly as an artillery tow for field artillery guns and a transport ofr the vehicle's crew. The Centaur is not a frontline combat vehicle, although it does have limited armour protection against enemy shelling.

The Centaur has two crew as standard, a driver and a gunner, although many vehicles operate with just a single driver and rely on the passengers to man the gun. In addition to the crew, the Centaur can cram p to five passengers.

Overall, kind of a neat, lightweight and compact little vehicle with a bit of versatility. I imagine other forces like say, the Elysians coudl use it. Considering the mass of your average Sentinel, I expect they could carry one of these in the Sky Talon Valkyries quite easily.

Page 109

The Centaur is usually armed with a singel pintle-mounted heavy stubber This weapon is often dismounted and used by the infantry for additional fire support, but most artillery crews retain the weapon as their best defence against a surprise enemy attack, especially as field artillery are usually required to operate close to the front. A feature of the Centuar is its second weapons mount. Positioned in the forward hull next to the driver, a squad in transit can attach their special or heavy weapon here and continue to use it to protect the vehicle. Most artillery crews are not issued a weapion to mount here, but command squads and grenadier squads in transit find this feature useful.

..

Centaurs are often upgraded iwth a variety of other useful features, such as dozerblades, smoke launchers, hunter-killer missiles and mine sweepers...

Crew compartment and armament. Note that it can have an extra heavy weapon added, which adds to the versatility (especially if you complmeent the stubber) Add a HK missile for added effet.

Page 109

The Centaur's main feature is it stwin engines, mounted in the track sponsons.
For its size, ,teh Centaur has a very powerful powerpack, useful for towing very heavy loads, but when freed from this role the Centaur's engine means it can reach a top speed of 110 kph on road and 70 kph off road.

I wonder what kind of light tank it might make if you added more armour and a turret with a lascannon or autocannon?

Page 109

Centaurs are often issued to grenadier units as a battlefield transport...

..

..the grenadiers' Centaur has been adapted with additional armour plates. This armour gives the driver and passengers some extra protection, especially against shrapnel.

Grenadier centaurs.

Page 110

Centaur stats:

Weight: 6.2 tons Length 4.1M, width 3m, height 2.3M Ground clearancee .4M

Max speed on-road: 110 kph Max speed off-road 70 kph

ARmament: heavy stubber, 300 rounds

160 degree traverse, -22 to +45 degree elevation.

armour: 80mm superstructure, 50mm hull.


Page 112 -

The term '
the Guard identify "field artillery" as smaller artillery pieces which are generally deployed closer to the front line and in direct support of the infantry, rather than the heavy artillery which is deployed far to the rear and used for sustained bombardments and harassing fire deep into enemy lines. Field artillery is more mobile and can be quickly hitched to a towing Centaur and pulled forward behind the infantry to rapidly set up again and engage an enemy counter attack.

Field artillery (in Guard terms) defined.

Page 112 -

Quad launchers, also commonyl known as 'quad' or 'Thudd' guns, due to their distinctive sound when firing, are effecitvely four large mortars in a single carraige. Once the "quads' were common weapons amongst the Imperial Guard, but most of these weapons have now been relegated to second line units, used to arm planetary defnece forces and militia units. The quad-launcher's main drawback is the time required to reload between volleys. Ammunition is placed inot the hop, the breech is then hand cranked back which allows the round to feed into the breech, which then slams forwards into the ready position. The hop can then be reloaded with another shell. When the gun fires, the recoil allows the second shell to load automatically. Once this second shell is fired, the whole slow loading process must be repeated. The weapons complex automated loader is also prone to jamming and misfeeds and must be carefully maintained in the field.

..

..the quad launcher is a highly effective anti-infantry and suppression weapon, lobbing four shells at a time in a high trajectory to rain down onto enemy treanches in a distinctive rapid bursting four shell pattern. The 'quads' are also deployed for point defnece, where they are used in a direct fire role agianst enemy infantry attacks. The weapon lacks the range of heavier aritllery and as such is of little use for box-barrages or counter-battery fire.

Forge world's love of resurrecting old ideas and putting their spin on it strike again . The Thudd Gun reborn. Rather little changed from its earlier incarnation.

Page 112

The field artillery company's other weapon is the heavy mortar, which is a larger version of the standard infantry mortar, firing a larger, heavier shell. This is the same weapon that is commonly mounted on the Griffon mortar carrier, but mounted on a wheeled carriage and towed by a Centaur or Trojan.

..

Whilst lacking the destructive power of the 'quads', the heavy mortars versatility make sit popular..

If they can field the Griffon's heavy mortar separately, what about the Griffon makes it so hard to produce or "high tech?"

Page 113

Quad launcher stats:

mass: 3.8 tons, length: 4.6M, width 2.3M, height 2.2M ground clearance: .44M

Traverse 0 degrees, elevation +10 to +45 degrees.

armour: Gun mantlet 30mm

Page 114
Heavy mortar stats:

Mass: 3.5 tons length: 4.6M, width 2.3m, height 3.3M. Grgound clearance .6M

Traverse 0 degrees elevation: +20 to +82 degrees

Page 116

The Earthsahker is the Imperial Guard's standard artillery piece. It is a 132mm calibre weapon, capable of firing a 38 kg shell over 15 kms at a velocity of 814 mps. So a shell fired to maximum range w ould take 19 seconds from firing to impacting.

Earthshaker stats, basically unchanged from IA1 and IA3. Taking 19 seconds to cross 15 km at 814m/s suggests a rather flat trajectory, all told - not much more thana few degrees of elevation really (less than 10) This in turn suggests that the Earthshaker is at least capable of reaching out to ranges greater than 15 km, but that range may be limited by other issues (target size and mobility, accuracy, etc.)

PAge 116

It uses its standard five powder charges, but this can be increased with the addition of charges six and seven. This will increase the range at the risk of extra wear and stress on teh gun itself. firing higher charge shots inducees considerable strain and erosion on the barrel and the firing chamber, so that the breach seal fails, drastically reducing the gun's range and velocity and increasing the risk of a misfire. Because of this, the use of higher charges must be authorised by higher command, and the firing is recorded on each gun. No gun may fire more than twenty overcharged rounds.

Earthshakers can be "over-charged." the drawbacks of which are explained in greater detail.

PAge 116

The Earthshakre can also fire different shells as required: smoke shells, incendiary shells, illumination shells and diamantine-tipped armour penetrating rounds are all part of the Earthshaker's armoury.

Earthshaker ammo.

Page 116

The Medusa siege gun is a very different weapon. It fires a heavier shell at a lower velocity over a shorter distance. The heavy shell has excellent destructive capabilities, but the medusa cannot match the Earthshaker for range, and as such is less useful for harassing fire and counter-battery fire, instead it is mainly used to destroy enemy bunkers, pillboxes, walls and trenches.

Siege gun fluff again.

Page 116

Siege regiments are not only supported by their own artillery companies ..

Predictably siege forces have their own aritllery, and probably lots of it.



Page 117
Earthshaker cannon stats:

Weight: 14 tons Lenght: 8.2M (carraige only), Width 3.7M. Height 4.2 M (gun at 0 degrees elevation.)

Ground clearance .7M

Traverse 0 degrees. Elevation +0 to +68 degrees

Armour: Gun mantlet 60mm


PAge 117
the Earthshaker diagram shows the gun and shell. The shell shown near the gun sclaes to be about 220-230 mm in diameter, and about 880mm in height/length. Once again demonstrating how careful one has to be about relying on the drawings.



Page 118

Medusa siege gun stats:

Mass: 12 tonnes. Lenght 8.2 M (carriage only) Width 3.7M Height 3.7M (gun at 0 degree elevation)

GRound clearance: .7M

Traverse 0 degrees. elevation +0 to +54 degrees

Armour: gun mantlet 60mm

PAge 118 MEdusa picture shows shell.

Note the shells also have stabilizing fins at the rear, hinting at rocket propelled/assisted ammo. The shell diameter appears to be between 360-390mm, while the length is a bit over 1.1M

Page 120

Krieg siege rgeiments rely on massed infantry assaults.. supported by heavy artillery barrages to grind their enemies down - despite their preferred tactics, Krieg's regiments do not ignore the value of heavily armoured vehicles. Although siege reigments do not deploy tanks en masse, as entire companies operating together, they do use tanks to support their infantry attacks. Individual tanks companies and squadrons will be split up and attached to infantry platoons...
..

The tank's hull helps provide some cover for the infantry, as well as being able to quickly engage and destroy enemy heavy weapons with the tank's main armament.
...

Many Imperial Guard commanders regard Krieg's uses of tanks as unsophisticated and backwards, ,resulting in unacceptably high loss rates. Krieg commanders regard the expenditure of armoured vehicles with the same callous disregard as that of men, they will simply find more tanks to replace losses.

The Krieg forces and tanks. Note the reaction of Guard commanders to this use (and by extinction Krieg tactics in general, as if more evidence were needed.) I doubt the Munitorum likes the waste of materials either.

Page 120

Because of the enviroment Krieg regiments are often deployed to fight in, the engines of their Leman Russes are often modified with additional filters for their engine and crew compartments, to prevent the exterior atmosphere affecting the tank's inner workings. Krieg tanks are often seen with additional oxygen tanks and bottles of chemical cleaners added ot the exterior.

Krieg mods to tanks.

Page 120

Like its namesake (Predator annihilator) the Leman Russ annihilator replaces the tank's main battle cannon with twin-linked lascannons. This requires the addiiton of extra powercells inside the tank, but these use the space saved by no longer storing the battle cannon's ammunition.
Its twin lascannons turn it into a tank-hunter, and in it is in this role that the tank excels. Of course such sophisitcated tactical planning is not regarded as important by Krieg and so, where other regiments would regard the tank hunter as a defensive weapon, Krieg still throws them inot the attack across no-man's land.

Finally an Annihilator version of the Russ. Took long enough.

PAge 121
Leman Russ Annihilator stats:

Mass 58 tonnes. Length 7.08M , width 4.86M, height 4.42M Ground clearance: .45M

Max speed on road: 40 kph Max speed off road: 24 kph

Traverse 360 degrrees elevation -8 to +26 degrees

Unlimited primary ammo capacity for lascannon, 600 rounds or hull mounted heavy bolter.

aRmour: Turret 200mm, superstructure 180mm, hull 150mm gun mantlet 100mm.

Page 125 - Macharius tanks are thoughtof as "second generation" baneblades. It took 200 years fro the Macharius design to beapproved.

Page 125

The Macharius is one of a variety of what are referred to as 'second generation' Baneblades. These are built by forge worlds eager to secure large military contracts, but that do not possess the STC data required to build true Baneblades. Only a handful of forge worlds still manufacture Baneblades to the same design as those used during the Great Crusades, and the ADeptus Mechanicus of Mars keep a close guard on which forge worlds are allowed access to the information that they store.

..

During the Great Crusades there had been more than a single design of lage tanks in the Emperor's Service. For years Adeptus Mechanicus Munition-adepts have searched for the dat afor these missing tanks.

..

Through Diligent stud, Magos alax discovered fragments of a blueprint buried deep in the archives of Lucius forgeworld. He made it his life's work to re-constrcut the missing data by cross-referencing with Baneblade components and other vehicles, until he had the plans for the construction of an entire vehicle.

..

This notiriously lengthy [approval] process took another two hundred years...

I find the "second generation" baneblade bit interesting, since it technically isn't a baneblade, and we know that "counterfeit" baneblades that are easier to make are also produced. This may be a possible indication that lots of tanks are known (informally) as "baneblade" but may go by other names. (EG the epic 1000 ton uber baneblade that matches the Leviathan and Capitol Imperialis may be a "Baneblade" too, but not THE Baneblade, just sa the Macharius is A Baneblade but not THE Baneblade.)

We also see the usual Admech approach to technology, which may actually be or not be a legit deisgn, but they will pretend it is reardless.

Page 125

After long testing and consultations with many other forge worlds, the plans were finally accepted, and Lucius forgeworld was sanctioned to start production.

..

..in the meantime, Lucius had also lobbied for and been granted the right to build STC Baneblades...

..

Lucius forge world started production of its Baneblades, but soon found that demand outstripped supply. Lucius struggled to keep up with the Departmento Munitorum's requirements. Then the world of Krieg returend to the Imperium's fold, and suddenly offered new regiments for service with the Imperial Guard. The Departmento Munitorum looked ot Lucius to provide much of their equipment.

The sudden increase in demand meant thta the rulers of Lucius turned to the Macharius...

..

... Mars has now allowed the production data to be used by other forge worlds.

I guess Lucius couldnt even manage to support counterfeit baneblade production. Then again considering the Krieg, I cna't blame them. Cheap mass produced Macharius would work better.


PAge 125

The 174 tonne Macharius lacks the Baneeblade's massive size and many of its weapons, but still fufills the same battlefield role.
It is still a potent war machine, even if the Macharius cannot match the Baneblade's massive firepower, its heavy armour bracing, advance logis engines and engine performance.

This suggests that the Super Battle cannon on the Baneblade is more than 2-3x the power of a Russ battle cannon.

Page 126
Macharius tank stats:

Mass: 175 tons. Length: 10.9 M, width 7 M, height: 4.8M

Ground clearance: .45M

MAx speed on road: 26 kph. Max speed off road: 18 kph

Armmaents: 2 x battlecannons, 2x heavy stubber, 2x heavy bolter

TraversE: 360 degrees. Elevation -2 to +28 degrees

main ammo 40 rounds for battlecannon, 1000 rounds for heavy stubbers, 600 rounds for heavy bolters.

Armour:
220mm on turret, 200mm superstructure, 190mm hull, 150mm gun mantlet.

Page 130

It [Guard] is huge, billions upon billions of men at arms and millions of tanks and artillery guns stand ready to fight for the Emperor.

..

Each planet owes tithes to the Imperium and part of these tithes are taken as manpower.

Many units are formed as infantry regiments, with tens of thousands of men. But there are more specialised regiments, such as those recruited from the world of Krieg. These are siege regiments, with vast resources of infantry and heavy artillery, deployed for bloody trench warfare, often against the strongest enemy defences.

..

But Krieg's doctines and tactics mark them out from other regiments.

billions of men, millions of vehicles, infantry regiments of tens of thosuands of men. But Krieg regiments are bigger than that and more distinctive. They are especialyl distinctive for their "doctrine and tactics" - EG trench warfare marks them out as unusual. hint hint this is getting really repettitve by now.

Page 133

The Death Korps have no fear of death. They gladly lay down their lives in the name of the Emperor.

..

The Death Korps are so firmly indoctrinated into the Imperial faith that they will stand against overwhelming odds.

..

Indoctirnated from birth in the martial traditions of the Korps, all Death Korps soldiers are experts witht he bayonet, and favour the bayonet charge in battle.

Page 134

The Imperium demands that the vast majority of Imperial Guard regiments are supervised by a cadre of commissars to guard against disloyalty and cowardice.

..

Such is the proven loyalty of the Krieg regiments that this might be consisted unecessary, but the Departmento Munitorum still err on the side of caution - after all their planet did once attempt to rebel against the Imperium.

Commissars are Munitourm regulation it seems, even for the Krieg. No mention here of the "voice of caution" or being a liasion. They do mention the possibility of future revolt as a reason for commissars though.

Page 134

The Quartermaster may be accompanied by up to four servitor assistants...

A rather unsuual feature I thought. Guardsmen rarely get access to servitors of any kind.

Page 138

Each [infantry] platoon consists of a command squad and up to six infantry squads.

Krieg platoons can be up to 65 troops, not including other attachments,

Page 139

A Centaur can carry up tot five men and tow one gun.

Again Centaurs carry only up to 5 men.

Page 141

The Death Korps make wide use of the Cyclops remote controlled demolition vehicle, sending them out across no-man's land to attack enemy strong points and bunkers before launching an assault.

Cyclops again.

Page 143

Krieg siege regiments use tanks to support their infantry attacks and to exploit breaktrhoughs. Unsurprisingly, they have a high proporton of siege tanks for this role.

Which is fine, but I wonder why they are ever given Vanquishers.

Page 145

The Dark Angels Legion fought beside the Emperor during the Great Crusades, and can claim to have liberated or captured hundreds, if not thousands of worlds for the Imperium.

Doesn't seem like alot captured if literal.

Page 145

..the Dark Angels Legion took Caliban as its home, close to the Eye of Terror.

This.. explains much.

page 145

But many on Terra believe the Chapter's loyalty is questionable, and that they continually act without regard for the wishes of the rulers of the Imperium. They say that the Chapter is beyond the control fo the High Lords of Terra, and worst yet, beyond the restraints of the Emperor's Inquisition. Suspicion of the Chapter is rife, for without the correct controls who knows where the Chapter's true loyalty lies, or what heresy might be breeding within the dark corridors of the Rock?

- Not only are the Dark Angels total dicks, but that its loyalty is questioned by those on TErra, ,as they continually ignore requests/dictates by the Imperium (even moreso than other Space AMrine chapters it seems) - this includes the High Lords and the Inquisition both.

Of course, ANY Chapter is effectively beyond Imperium control for all practical purposes, so I dont know what the exact bitching is, aside from politics.

PAge 146- 147
Dark angels strike forces:

HQ: Grand Master Azrael, Interrogator-Chaplain Belphegor, 5 Librarians, 6 Apothecaries with 2 Rhinos. HQ has a Land Raider Promethius and a Damocles Rhino variant.

1st company (Deathwing) had 25 terminators and 2 land raiders

2nd Company had 30 Marines and 15 Land Speeders.

3rd Company under Master Orias had a Chaplain, Apothecary, 20 Tactical, 20 Assault and 20 Devastator Marines, 6 Rhinos, and 1 Dreadnought

5th Company under Master Helbron had a Chaplain, Apothercary, Stnadard Bearer, 60 Tactical Marines, 20 assualt Marines and 20 Devasttor Marines, 10 Rhinos and 4 Dreadnoughts

6th Company had: 1 Chpalain, 1 Apothecary, 70 Tacticla Marines, 7 Rhinos.

8th Company had 50 Assault marines and 5 Rhinos

9th Company had 40 Devastators and 4 Rhinos.


The Dark Angels fleet had 2 strtike cruisers, 1 battle barge, two Nova-class escorts and 2 hunter class escorts, along with 15 Thunderhawk gunships, 22 Thunderhawk Transporter, and 42 Drop pods.

General armoury: 4 Predator Annihilator, 15 Whirlwind, 9 vindicator, 8 Predator Destructor, 10 Razorback, 12 Sentry guns, 17 Techmarine, 76 Servitors, 8 Land Raider, 2 Land Raider Crusader.

Page 148

They broke through and secured an escape route, for the loss of a single battle brother - killed by a direct hit from a meltagun as the squad withdrew.

Not really surprising tha ta meltagun could kill a power ar mored marine, given what it can do to a tank.

Page 148

The heavy flamer unit is a standard support weapon for Terminator squads, used for tunnel fighting and room clearance. It is a savage weapon, firing a stream of super-heated promethium, generating temperatures in excess of 900C, incinerating anything hit.

Note temp of heavy flamer. Whether thats temp of the flame itself, temp it raises other targets to, or what... also note the incinerating bit.

Page 150

This master-crafted weapon contains a small powerfield generator in the pommel. When activated, it wreathes the blade in a crackling energy field that disrupts anything hit at a molecular levle, greatly assisting armour penetration.

Powerfield described.. as usual "molecular disruption" can mean alot of things, and the mechanism it precise (it could be brute force or technobabble, and still different brute force methods.

Page 150

This boltgun includes the "Dark-Eye" nightscope, a modification sometimes favoured by Space Marines that have earned the Marksman's honour. It provides enhaanced low-light sighting via the weapon's link to the powered armour's autosenses. Increased magnification and powerful infra-targeting make this scope a useful additon to a squad fighting at longer ranges.

But no stock. I imagine power armor can offset that limitation for sniper puproses.

Page 150

The plasma gun fires highly energised hydrogen plasma, accelrating the "plasma bolt" via a linear magnetic accelerator. Upon impact the plasma explodes with the destructive heat of a small sun.

Sounds like an actual plasma weapon rather than an exotic super-soaker type flamethrower thing/

Page 153

They [boltguns] fire self-propelled bolts that deotnate after penetrating a target, literally blowing it apartt form within.

Standard bolter fluff.

Page 153

Every tactical squad is equipped with a single heavy weapon allowing greater battlefield flexibliilty.

Self explanatory.

Page 153

The lascannon fires a powerful blast of laser energy capable of cutting through the thickest armour plating. The weapon itself is very encumbering, and only the Space Marine's greatly enhanced strength and power armour allows the weapon to be man-porrtable. Most lascannons are tripod or vehicle mounted, but this pattenr has bene specifically developed to meet the requirements of Space Marine Chapters.

Astartes lascannon. only tjhey can heft it, otherwise its tripod or vehcile mounted (EG russ hull)

Page 154 - Space Mariens carrying special/heavy weapons also carry a bolt pistol as backup.

page 154

the [bolt] pistol fires the same rounds as the bolt gun, using the same technology. Capable of single shot or three round bursts, the pistol lacks range and accuracy, but the bolt's stopping power mean it is highly effective at short ranges and during close combat. The weapon's magazine holds ten rounds.

bolt pistol. Note again its burst fire mode and 10 round capacity. More like a PDW than an actual pistol.

Page 154

In the hands of a Space MArine, assisted by his power armour, the heavy bolter becomes a man-portable weapon. The heavy bolter fires a larger, heavier bolt over longer range than the stnadard bolt gun and is supplied by a high capacity 40 round magazine, or a disintegrating belt. The weapon can also be fitted with a bipod, so it can be used in a sustained fire role.

HEavy bolter.

Page 156

With billions of people under its control, the Imperium is often beset by rebellions against its rule. Not all of these rebels are directly inspired by the Chaos Gods, but the Chaos Gods often find a way to corrupt the cause of the rebels ot their own ends. Many such rebellions are led by powerful individuals, men who have been corrupted by that pwoer and are seekign to break away from the Imperium's constricting laws.

Imperium controls "billions"


Page 159

Warp Fist: ..the psyker is considered to be armed with a powerfist and close combat weapon...

..

Psychic Lash: the psyker focuses his power to burst his enemy's internal organs.

Rogue Psyker psychic abilities.. quantifiable ones at least.

Page 161

After the rebellion, orderes were issued to round up all of Vraks' Ogryns, and then to send them to medical facilities for 'adaptation.'. Each Ogryn has been lobotomised and implanted with drug inducers. When the combat drug 'Slaught is injected into its system, the brutish creature turns into a raging psychopath, flinging itself head long intot he enemy with its only thought to kill before being slain in turn.

More on the Ogryn.. enhancement method. Must've had alot of stuff sitting around Vraks.

Page 162

Many [Renegade Militia/Apostate Cardinal's army] have basic military training, and retain their weapons and equipment, as well as having access to Vraks' vast stores.

note the "basic training" bit again.

Page 163

Those squads equipped with Chimeras were generally held back behind the front line as a rapid moving reserve force, able to rush forwards and reinforce any sector that might be weakening.

The Vraksian renegades did pretty well using Chimeras all told, I'd say.

Page 166

Turret emplacements are small bunkers mounting a single heavy weapon and crewed by three men. They are commonly mounted in the VRaks' defence lines, forming strong points and providing excellent protection for the heavy weapons.

...

Sentry guns wre commonly deployed on the front line to watch over no-man's land and guard against enemy raids.

Turrets.

Page 167

There are many forms of artillery available to the renegades, from mortar teams up to large Manticore missiles and Bombards.

..

Vraks' stores contained thousands of mothballed Chimeras, all brand new and awaiting issue to Imperial Guard regiments.

Yep. Lots and lots of vehicles. As we saw, gave the Vraksian renegades quite an edge.

Page 168

This Ogryn has been heavily surgically altered using proscribed neurological and bio-chemical processes. This crude adaptation starts by lobotomising the Ogryn, turning it into an imbecilic, docile creature, unable even to feed itself and becoming utterly enslaved to its masters - until the chemical injectors are activated. The injectors deliver a cocktail of potent, highyl dangerous drugs, including a banned combat drug called 'Slaught' into the Ogryn's bloodstream and muscles. 'Slaught', once favoured by such notorious Space Marine Chpaters as the Flesh Tearers and World Eaters, stimulates the subjecct's adrenal glands and the neural pathways to the areas of the brain that govern aggression. With these driven into overdrive, the uder becomes a raging psychopath, driven by a bloodlest that cnanot be sated. Other drugs are also injected, including various phencyclidines that give the taker massively increased strength and an almost super-human ability to block pain - with side effects inducing hallucinations and a desire for self mutiliations. Strong beta-adrenoreceptor blocking drugs augment this, allowing the Ogryn to fight with terrible wounds that would usually kill it outright.

The downside of this drug-fuel rampage is that the body's system is unlikely to be able to cope wit the drugs for long, and vital internal organs will quickly start to fail. Ogryn Berserkers were used as expendable troops on Vraks, and were not supposed to survive the first encounter with the enen,y. They were a one-use weapon, hurled into the enemy in furious counter-attacks with the single aim of inflicting as much damage as possible before collapsing, or being killed in their turn.

detailed explanation of the psycho Ogryn modification.

Page 168

Although the Ogryn bears the heretical symbols of a Chaos worshipper, these must have been added by its masters. Even before surgery Ogryn's brains do not easily comprehend concepts such as ideology or religous worship, although they do have a strong basic instinct for loyalty to their leaders (making them useful as bodyguards.) An Ogryn only needs to know who its enemies are, not why it must fight. The removal of this creature's higher brain functions (such as they are), means it fights only on instinct.

Ogryn intelligence.

Page 168

The Ogryns' armour has been constructed from scrap metal...

..

This crude armour provides rudimentary protection against enmy fire, is more useful against enemy hand-to-hand attacks.

From the drawing I'd guess the armor scrap is 1 1/2-2" thick. Again like militia armour provides "rudimentary" protection.

Page 168

Its main weapon is a rock-cutting saw, which has been surgically attached to its arm. It includes its own motor, an diamantine-tipped cutting blade. The tool would usually be used during demolition work for cutting through plasteel and ferrocrete.

[/quote]

Nasty.

[Raxmei]

In context, the victories I was referring to were Planus Steppes, Lumen Valley, and Goyan Valley.

In a rare instance where regiments from Attila deploy in force, Mogul Kamir leads a decisive three-year offensive against the Necron tomb wardens of Loxar IV. The enemy forces are finally defeated during the ill-fated charge of the Lumen Valley, the largest cavalry charge in the Imperium's recorded history.

Presumably if things had started going poorly they could have requested additional forces from elsewhere. This is acknowledged as not the preferred way to use rough riders, but the situation is more complex than just cavalry being sent off to die in a futile attack.

The Cadian 423rd spearhead the largest armoured assault since the battle for Tallarn. Over eight thousand tank companies and thirty five super-heavy detachments are annihilated during the near-total destruction of a renegade Titan Legio at Planus Steppes.

Yes these are heavy losses. IF IA is to be believed an IG tank company is in the neighborhood of 10 tanks and a superheavy detachment is 1-3 superheavy tanks. 80,000 tanks and 35-105 superheavies is legitimately a lot of tanks (comparable in number to all of the T-34s eve built), a rare instance of a fluff engagement actually being bigger than any historical precedent. In exchange for these losses they destroyed nearly 50 Titans and unstated damage to any support units the renegade Titans may have had. Those are heavy losses but if the stakes were high enough and no heavier forces were available there wasn't much alternative. They traded tens of thousands of tanks that would in total take decades to replace for tens of Titans that take centuries to build and they did so without having to call in scarce warships or Titans.

Under the command of the stern taskmaster Kubrik Chenkov, the Valhallan 18th "Tundra Wolves" wipe out the vanguard of Hive Fleet Jormungandr at Goyan Valley. The swarms of the Tyranids are crushed under the metal treads of Chenkov's armoured brigades and the thundering boots of over a million Guardsmen, driven onto the xenos horde by ruthless Commissars

One might reasonably assume that the above is at least slightly figurative and the Imperial Guard did not exclusively use tank treads and boots as their sole weapons. What is important is that the Imperium attacked in force and quickly since letting the Tyranid vanguard get established makes it much harder to remove them.

No, that's the exact kind of idiocy I'm railing against.

Only an idiot would send massed tanks against Tau. They have the best anti-tank weapons in the game. The Tau _want_ you to send tanks against them.
You're an idiot.

The Allies did in fact stop using massive all-tank formations when they realized all-tank formations would only get massacred by massed anti-tank guns. That was why the US Armored Division was reorganized from having three tank regiments, to only two tank regiments supported by a mechanized infantry regiment and several batteries of mobile artillery. The Germans in fact changed their force composition much earlier because they realized that only idiots send massed tanks against massed ATGs.

I think this is a mutual misunderstanding. I'm not advocating sending armies of just tanks against Tau, or anyone else. I read your earlier statements as advocacy against sending tanks or mechanised infantry at all if Tau were expected and in general to have the people in charge of assigning regiments to wholesale refuse to send certain types of regiment to certain fronts. There's nothing wrong with have a target composition but the nature of 40k transport makes any great precision impractical. Large operations with the luxury of years of planning might have the luxury of fighting with the army they want. The rest of the time the question is less whether to go forward with the ideal force or the less ideal one but of going to war with the less ideal force or accepting defeat.

I'm also not advocating even distribution of all assets across all regiments. There would still be infantry regiments and armored regiments. However, these formations would not consist solely of infantry or of tanks, as in practice infantry and tanks generally do not act alone. It's the same sense behind a motor rifle regiment having three motor rifle battalions, a tank battalion, and an artillery battalion plus various support companies while a tank regiment has three tank battalions and one rifle battalion plus that other stuff. A regiment incorporates not just the troops directly corresponding to its role but also the support elements it would ordinarily require to directly support it in order to do its job. The Imperial Guard codex normally portrays each regiment as incorporating only units of its designated type with the consequence that armored regiments are devoid of infantry support unless they happen to be deployed with an infantry regiment that can lend them some. That's a problem. You can reshuffle your units to considate your armor but you can't make absent supporting arms appear from nothing.

[Zinegata]

In context, the victories I was referring to were Planus Steppes, Lumen Valley, and Goyan Valley.

There are victories, and there are Pyrrhic victories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory

In a rare instance where regiments from Attila deploy in force, Mogul Kamir leads a decisive three-year offensive against the Necron tomb wardens of Loxar IV. The enemy forces are finally defeated during the ill-fated charge of the Lumen Valley, the largest cavalry charge in the Imperium's recorded history.

Presumably if things had started going poorly they could have requested additional forces from elsewhere. This is acknowledged as not the preferred way to use rough riders, but the situation is more complex than just cavalry being sent off to die in a futile attack.

"Largest cavalry charge in Imperium's recorded history" against the Necrons is all you need to know. It is stupid insanity. Cavalry do NOT have heavy weapons. Every Necron requires heavy weapons to kill. End of story.

The Cadian 423rd spearhead the largest armoured assault since the battle for Tallarn. Over eight thousand tank companies and thirty five super-heavy detachments are annihilated during the near-total destruction of a renegade Titan Legio at Planus Steppes.

Yes these are heavy losses. IF IA is to be believed an IG tank company is in the neighborhood of 10 tanks and a superheavy detachment is 1-3 superheavy tanks. 80,000 tanks and 35-105 superheavies is legitimately a lot of tanks (comparable in number to all of the T-34s eve built), a rare instance of a fluff engagement actually being bigger than any historical precedent. In exchange for these losses they destroyed nearly 50 Titans and unstated damage to any support units the renegade Titans may have had.

Legion Invictia destroys nearly 100 Titans in Titanicus for the loss of around ten Titans.

Pyrrhic victory at best. Gross demonstration of incompetence because they deployed massed anything against Titans. End of story.

Under the command of the stern taskmaster Kubrik Chenkov, the Valhallan 18th "Tundra Wolves" wipe out the vanguard of Hive Fleet Jormungandr at Goyan Valley. The swarms of the Tyranids are crushed under the metal treads of Chenkov's armoured brigades and the thundering boots of over a million Guardsmen, driven onto the xenos horde by ruthless Commissars

One might reasonably assume that the above is at least slightly figurative and the Imperial Guard did not exclusively use tank treads and boots as their sole weapons. What is important is that the Imperium attacked in force and quickly since letting the Tyranid vanguard get established makes it much harder to remove them.

Except that whatever your interpretation, it clearly states that "Engaging in Tyranids in melee range works!". No sane military actively encourages and awards medals to commanders who fuck up on this scale.

I think this is a mutual misunderstanding. I'm not advocating sending armies of just tanks against Tau, or anyone else. I read your earlier statements as advocacy against sending tanks or mechanised infantry at all if Tau were expected and in general to have the people in charge of assigning regiments to wholesale refuse to send certain types of regiment to certain fronts. There's nothing wrong with have a target composition but the nature of 40k transport makes any great precision impractical. Large operations with the luxury of years of planning might have the luxury of fighting with the army they want. The rest of the time the question is less whether to go forward with the ideal force or the less ideal one but of going to war with the less ideal force or accepting defeat.

Again, wrong. The Allies were operating under a time pressure, and yet they made a conscious decision to actually consider force composition before sending out troops to fight.

Only the lazy or the incompetent think that you cannot mass force and at the same time consider what kind of force you should employ. It doesn't matter if you have a time constraint. That just means you need to work HARDER instead of being a lazy ass clerk to find the right units.

Moreover, if you are saying that you should send tanks into a swamp anyway because you have nothing else, then you are an IDIOT. Again, only idiots consider holding ground as the only valid objective. There are other valid objectives: Preserving force. Sending tanks to a swamp just deprives you of a tank unit with no real gain.

As Skimmer showed in Vraks, attacking the armory was STUPID. They should have just left it to wither on the vine. Sometimes, if the enemy takes over a swamp, your response should be "Fine, hold on to that completely useless piece of ground! We'll go back to you in 10 years once you're bored and complacent and we have the proper forces to deal with you!"

THAT is strategy. Not this madness about "We should always respond to any threat by lazily putting together any available forces at hand!"

I'm also not advocating even distribution of all assets across all regiments. There would still be infantry regiments and armored regiments. However, these formations would not consist solely of infantry or of tanks, as in practice infantry and tanks generally do not act alone.

Again, welcome to the French Army of 1940. Parcelling out tanks in insufficient numbers to infantry units. Giving tank units token infantry that's largely irrelevant.

It's the same sense behind a motor rifle regiment having three motor rifle battalions, a tank battalion, and an artillery battalion plus various support companies while a tank regiment has three tank battalions and one rifle battalion plus that other stuff.

Except that you completely fail to realize the context of the Motor-Rifle Regiment.

The Soviet Motor-Rifle regiments were designed to operate on a much smaller scale than the Imperium, and they generally operated as part of a cohesive army. When a regiment is part of the Third Shock Army, it's not merely for show. It actually makes it part of a much larger and cohesive organization.

If you told a Soviet Motor-Rifle commander that you were sending his regiment ALONE against an alien world, he'd slap you in the head because the regiment isn't supposed to work alone. It's one small component of an army, which is really their core fighting unit.

This is again why I pointed out that the primary fighting unit of the Imperial Guard should not be the regiment. It should be the Army Group. Because regiments generally fight as part of an army group anyway, and that they should really just make these formations permanent.

[Simon_Jester]

"Largest cavalry charge in Imperium's recorded history" against the Necrons is all you need to know. It is stupid insanity. Cavalry do NOT have heavy weapons. Every Necron requires heavy weapons to kill. End of story.

Hm. [Looks up Rough Rider entry in 4th and 5th Edition Guard codices]

The tabletop says that Imperium cavalry squads can be armed with squad-level 'heavy' weapons: the squad may carry grenade launchers such as would be useful against Space Marine-equivalent foes (when firing armor-piercing ammunition). Or personal melta/plasma weapons that are viable antitank weapons in their own right at short range.

It would usually be more sensible, and this is how I'd want them used, to take Imperium cavalry have them simply dismount them and fight as dragoons, preferably trying to draw the Necrons into short range since my AT weapons are short-ranged.

Of course, I'm not Mogul Kamir, who's presented in-setting as a psychotic, scenery-chewing version of Attila the Hun.

The Cadian 423rd spearhead the largest armoured assault since the battle for Tallarn. Over eight thousand tank companies and thirty five super-heavy detachments are annihilated during the near-total destruction of a renegade Titan Legio at Planus Steppes.

Yes these are heavy losses. IF IA is to be believed an IG tank company is in the neighborhood of 10 tanks and a superheavy detachment is 1-3 superheavy tanks. 80,000 tanks and 35-105 superheavies is legitimately a lot of tanks (comparable in number to all of the T-34s eve built), a rare instance of a fluff engagement actually being bigger than any historical precedent. In exchange for these losses they destroyed nearly 50 Titans and unstated damage to any support units the renegade Titans may have had.

Legion Invictia destroys nearly 100 Titans in Titanicus for the loss of around ten Titans.

Pyrrhic victory at best. Gross demonstration of incompetence because they deployed massed anything against Titans. End of story.

If the Invictia can kill 100 Titans for the loss of roughly ten of their own, then that's a sign of ludicrously powerful character shielding, not that this is a loss ratio that should be expected of Titan-on-Titan combat.

THAT is strategy. Not this madness about "We should always respond to any threat by lazily putting together any available forces at hand!"

Quite simply, this does not seem to be the norm for large scale Imperium campaigns, where the forces made available are usually more diverse and at least approximately suited to the task at hand.

I'm also not advocating even distribution of all assets across all regiments. There would still be infantry regiments and armored regiments. However, these formations would not consist solely of infantry or of tanks, as in practice infantry and tanks generally do not act alone.

Again, welcome to the French Army of 1940. Parcelling out tanks in insufficient numbers to infantry units. Giving tank units token infantry that's largely irrelevant.

Zinegata, you are simply, bluntly, wrong about this.

Large armored formations without attached mechanized infantry units are useless, except to oppose other identical large armored formations. That is all they are good for. Large infantry formations without attached armor and artillery get pinned down by machine guns and slaughtered by mortar fire in real life, no seriously this actually happens.

You've been contaminated by the oversimplified version of the Fall Gelb war-plan, which entirely misses a lot of important points about combined arms operations. Real modern armies integrate tank, infantry, and artillery at the level of the regiment, brigade, and division... which just happens to be the size range that Imperium 40k regiments fall into. In real life, no one would willingly construct a ten thousand man infantry unit without tanks mixed in to give them support against enemy armor and fortified positions... and yet you keep shouting about how bad an idea it would be to integrate tanks into the infantry forces.

It's quite common for the Imperium to detach single regiments to deal with relatively minor problems: refusing to equip such regiments with organic tank/artillery support is foolish, and in my opinion is itself a sign of bad Imperial tactics.

[Black Admiral]

Legion Invictia destroys nearly 100 Titans in Titanicus for the loss of around ten Titans.

Pyrrhic victory at best. Gross demonstration of incompetence because they deployed massed anything against Titans. End of story.

If the Invictia can kill 100 Titans for the loss of roughly ten of their own, then that's a sign of ludicrously powerful character shielding, not that this is a loss ratio that should be expected of Titan-on-Titan combat.

The Legio Invicta actually lose at least thirteen Titans over the course of the Orestes campaign (as described in Titanicus), going from a strength on deployment of 49 Titans (Titanicus, pg. 35) to 36 later in the campaign (ibid., pg. 526). To this have to be added the losses of the Legio Tempestus battlegroup deployed on Orestes, which amounts to a like number; a starting strength of 22 Titans (the which reference I can't find right now) depleted to 9 later in the campaign (same page as the second figures for Invicta). However, this is before the campaign's largest battle, in which at least six additional Titans were lost.