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Falkenhayn
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Post by Falkenhayn »

NecronLord wrote:A lot of interesting ideas on how to defeat the Tau there. I'd never actually looked through that stuff with much attention before - their doctrine is rather fragile, and founded upon their having all the luck, isn't it?

Which seems quite appropriate for a race that indoctrinated.
I'm going to call it "The Fantasy of Perpetual Initiative", the same fallacious strategic reasoning that puts armies to bed in Russia. The sum of their military thinking is "Don't lose, ever, or we're fucked, and if we're ever fucked, LIE about it".

The doctrine "works" to the extent that the Tau don't recognize as strategically vital anything that inhibits the free movement of their armies. The system implies predication on some pretty insane logistical capabilities, largely independent of local resources. The slow Op Tempo of the Tau Empire may well be a side effect of this doctrine, that the assigned forces have to mobilize enormous reserves of supplies, probably based on the closest "Sept" systems to maintain full freedom of action independent of theatre circumstances.

This is all well and good for the Tau, as they can propagandize and sow sedition to their commie heart's content, and disguise their strategic weakness as "the inexorable and calculated expansion of the Tau Empire and the Greater Good".
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Post by Academia Nut »

This actually reminds me of a post one guy did about playing the Tau on the tabletop. Basically, when his buddy found out that he was playing Tau he switched over to an all drop pod Space Marine army, much to the annoyance of the Tau player.

Basically, it looks like if the Tau have mobility and the initiative, they can have it their own way, but if the target refuses to come to them, or comes in so fast that they are forced into close combat, they are fucked. Their doctrines pretty much require them to be able to shape the battlefield to their whim with their enemies being unable to shape it against them. A rather unflexible and dangerous approach in the long run, especially since they seem willing to trade space for time while the Imperium, Orks, and Tyranids all like to trade bodies for space, and all three alone have orders of magnitude more bodies than the Tau have space.
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Post by Peptuck »

The Tyranids in particular seem like an enemy that the Tau would have a very, very difficult time defeating, as when they assault a world they drop mycetic spores everywhere. The Tau wouldn't have any maneuverability advantage because no matter where they maneuver, there will be more Tyranids waiting for them.
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

The tau enjoy a number of logistical advantages by their very lack of size and its natural for them to take military advantage of them. Their military approach is very much dependent on an abundance of high technology and and avoidance of casualties. The IG, who are often negatively compared to them, are equipped with an eye more for prolonged conflicts where supplies may be hard to come by. Pulse rifles may be hard hitting and force field technology more widely used by the tau, but bullets and lasbeams will kill their warriors and a lasgun energy cell can be recharged by throwing it in a fire if need be. Imperial fighting forces that emphasis quality of equipment and training over ease of support and shear numbers (Stormtroopers, Sororitas, and Astartes) can match or overmatch warriors of the Fire Caste (yes, I love the Astartes scene in Kill Team).
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Don't know when I'll actuall get around to doing further examples, but to expound on what IO said: The Tau (from my initial observations) tend to emphasize more of a Space-Marine like doctrine of "quick, highly mobile" strike forces (whereas the Guard, ,as IO notes, are for "prolonged" engagements) The Tau don't "take" ground because they lack the numbers others do (like humanity) to make it feasible. I also imagine they don't garrison conquered planets (at least not with their own troops - I imagine this is another use for their conscripts/auxiliaries) but probably use alot of indoctrination or use of the Water Caste (or both) after the fact.

This is probably why they emphasize mobility and firepower/range over other factors, and why they don't worry about taking ground (or defending factories or whatnot.) The tau probably assume that they will be able to (eventually) overcome any opponent with a sudden application of overwhelming force to crush them long before factors such as logistics might become a concern. In some situations (mainly offensive, especially in conquest) this probably can work quite a bit well, , while in others (Defensively) it probably will vary according to the enemy they face and other factors (do they hold orbital superiority, the terrain, how the enemy chooses to attack, etc.)
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Post by Cykeisme »

[quote="Imperial Overlord
Anyway, does that mean that at present, Tau FTL travel is inferior to humanity's very first warp-capable ships?
Yes, their FTL is inferior. It's not much of an issue because their empire is tiny.[/quote]I'm referring not to the Imperium's present-day sector-crossing ships, but the very first human ships to travel through the warp, long before the engineering of the Navigator Gene, though.
Or is the answer still affirmative on that count? Pre-Navigator human ships from mankind's earliest forays into the stars are faster than current Tau ships?
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Incidentlaly a few pages back (page 6 or so?) I covered some of the BFG stuff on the Tau. I know there is a "dedicated" sourece for the tau stuff (you acn find it on the Specialist games BFG page) but its just rehashed from the BFG magazines I believe, so I didnt feel a need to repost it.

Generally Tau drives are like 1/5 the speed of Imperial Warp. As noted, the unusually dense nature of their region
also lends itself to high speeds - Tau vessels might (arguably) be separated by a mere tens of light years apiecee, wheras Imperail worlds could be separated by hundreds or even thousands of light years - tens of light years would be considered "close" by Imperial standards.

Another way to look at it is "hundreds" of habitable planets (with around a hundred or so Tau worlds) within a 300 light year diameter, as opposed to tens of millions of worlds in a 70-90 thousand lY radius. In those terms, the Tau aren't much more than a very large "Sector" by Imperial standards (but more densely packed together, and more militarzied.)
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

Cykeisme wrote:I'm referring not to the Imperium's present-day sector-crossing ships, but the very first human ships to travel through the warp, long before the engineering of the Navigator Gene, though.
Or is the answer still affirmative on that count? Pre-Navigator human ships from mankind's earliest forays into the stars are faster than current Tau ships?
I don't recall any information on early warp vessels that indicates they were slower than modern ones. It is important to remember that there is a lot of warp travel in the Imperium and without that occurs without Navigators. Most Chartist vessels (regular merchant ships), for example, don't have Navigators. The added expense doesn't make sense for a vessel that stays within one sector and only uses stable warp routes.
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Post by andrewgpaul »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Don't know when I'll actuall get around to doing further examples, but to expound on what IO said: The Tau (from my initial observations) tend to emphasize more of a Space-Marine like doctrine of "quick, highly mobile" strike forces (whereas the Guard, ,as IO notes, are for "prolonged" engagements) The Tau don't "take" ground because they lack the numbers others do (like humanity) to make it feasible. I also imagine they don't garrison conquered planets (at least not with their own troops - I imagine this is another use for their conscripts/auxiliaries) but probably use alot of indoctrination or use of the Water Caste (or both) after the fact.
It's also possible they use drones; Tactica Aeronautica shows a TX-6 drone fighter from the T'Ros garrison. The book also mentions how the T'au are debating a more agressive military campaign against the Imperium, making several conquests north of the Damocles Gulf. However, they appear to finally be realising ust how big the Imperium is, so they're wanting to strengthen their borders, and are conducting raids to keep the Imperium off-balance in the region.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Roughly translated, Mont'ka is the Killing Blow. It is the art of identifying a target of opportunity and attacking it swiftly with a Hunter Cadre, often deployed from a Manta missile destroyer. A Cadre pursuing the Mont'ka may stand in readiness for several days awaiting the command to strike. During this time they will plan the exact movements they will perform when the call comes. Often the deicsion to strike will come from a Shas'el or Shas'o with a good view of the enemy or the input of a well-sited Pathfinder team.
..
The attack will be immediately called off if the prey remains resilient or evasive.
Okay, this is going to be my first "elaboration" of the problems I find in Tau combat doctrine.

Now, there ARE good things about the above. It emphasizes the speed/mobility and firepower the Tau excel in, and the combination of a Manta missile destroyer (for deployment as well as support) further makes it very good. And if the Tau CAN find a good target and execute their plans as described above, it can be quite effective, depending upon the target nature.

The main problems I find here is that the Tau also display their penchant for caution and obsessive planning:

- First, the effectiveness of the tactic relies HEAVILY on the monitoring of the enemy, without being detected. It's not impossible for the Tau given their tech, but there can be some real limitations on this. The enemy is not always going to be sitting still - the Imperium in particular do know the advantages of mobility and exercise it (else why do they use chimeras and such.)

Moreover, the other side can also have means of detecting the tau - scanners or auspex (they have good ECM and stealth measures, but battlesuits and hover vehicles still have to dispose of waste heat as do the tau themselves, and this can make them detectable. There's also motion sensors and other kinds of sensors. And there are psykers and other sorcerous means of detection that the Tau might not have an easy time countering.

Even more problematic are aeriel and orbital assets (either ships in orbit or data satellites like those mentioned in Caves of Ice - evasion or masking against those can be harder, especially capital ships or satellites.

The Tau DO have air and space assets to combat those, of course, but this assumes they can either maintain space/air parity or achieve superiority, whcih isn't always going to be true, and if they lack either, then the enemy is going to have a definite advantage (orbital/aerial superiority will be a big problem among Tau tactics as we'll see later on.) There's also the problem that deliberately attacking air/space assets might tip off the enemy to the Tau's intentions.

- The second problem seems to be one of initative and momentum. That is, the tau emphasize caution to the extent that they will actually break off an attack rather than risk casualties, it seems, if the first attack is not successful (either because the target is stronger than they thought, or it is harder to pin down.) Preserving the lives of your troops is not the problem here as a lack of assertiveness. I mean, it says they'll take days planning and preparing for the attack, and when they do they strike swift and powerfully, presumably to have surprise on their side. And breaking off "immediately" when they think it might not work cedes all that hard work and advantage they may have gained. Even worse, the effectiveness of such an attack is not bound to work a second time, as the enemy would now be warned (and likely more prepared.)

Depending on the circumstances, it would seem logical to gamble (or even trade) some lives to actually inflict damage. Then again, the low population numbers of the Tau may not make this feasible. And it does create an exploitable potential weakness (if you can "hide" your strength until attacked or be unpredictable, you can frustrate this tactic.) in fending the Tau off.

In context most engagements with the Imperium will involve heavy use of space and airborne assets, even if personal sensors/auspex are rare. PDFs will have local naval ship/station support and local airforce support.
The Imperial Guard will almost ALWAYS have naval support of some kind, since they lack their own organic transportt, which also means orbital and aircraft support as well. (plus bombardment support.) Unless the Tau can occupy or drive off Imperial ships, those assets will cause potential problems.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

andrewgpaul wrote: It's also possible they use drones; Tactica Aeronautica shows a TX-6 drone fighter from the T'Ros garrison. The book also mentions how the T'au are debating a more agressive military campaign against the Imperium, making several conquests north of the Damocles Gulf. However, they appear to finally be realising ust how big the Imperium is, so they're wanting to strengthen their borders, and are conducting raids to keep the Imperium off-balance in the region.
Depends on the drone type I imagine. Some/most of them as I recall do require some controller in the link at some measure, even the semi-independent squadrons of drones.

Even then, as I recall drones tend to be largely support or skirmish elements rather than any sort of replacement for frontline combat assets (or even decoys) They aren't terribly durable (judging by Kill Team at least.) and while they may pack alot of firepower for their size they don't seem to be quite the equal of an actual fire warrior fromw hat I can remember observing.

It might work, but I still think you'd need to work hard to suppress, intimidate/cow, or indoctrinate/brainwash your enemy into submission first. (interestingly when I was going in Cities of Death, it mentioned Brightsword executing a "systematic extermination" of the human populace he conquered.

It also showed that Tau Body armour does fuck-all against Vostroyan blades/bayonets (a picture shows a Vostroyan punching his blade clean through Tau battle armour, which echoes the "kinetic" durability witnessed in the novel Kill Team.) Tau armor maybe is optomized for high energy type attacks but sucks against high force/momentum ones.
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Post by Cykeisme »

Does anyone have a source that describes the size and strength of an average Tau Fire Cast member?

If I'm not mistaken, they're smaller and weaker than the average human, and with slower reflexes, right?

On a personal level, I imagine the Tau would not want to get too close, lest they get their butts kicked. I mean, even a Guardman does not want an average greenskin or two (or twenty) up close; being smaller and weaker can only make it worse.
This combined with their low population numbers probably shaped their (flawed?) doctrine, on some deeper level.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Second tactical update:
In the Tau language the words for hunter and patience are deried from the same root. This technique is the oldest of the Tau technique and has the most variations. Essentially, the technique relies on the interaction of the hunter and the lure. In recent times, auxilliary troops such as Kroot are used as the lure, although some septs still regard the role as one that honours both hunter and prey and allow only bonded Fire Warrior teams to undertake it.

The lure's role is to expose itself to the prey and draw it into a position where it can be killed by the hunter. The more subtle commanders have been known to use the absence of troops as a lure. Once the prey is in position, the lure is free to escape or help the hunter as the situation dictates. Hunters are freuqently equipped with Crisis,Stealth, or Broadside armour with weapons carefully selected for the particular prey.
Again, there is nothing wrong with this concept in theory.. as long as the enemy plays along and doesn't spot the trap (orbital sensors, ground sensors, psykers, etc.) The trap is pretty useless if the enemy won't cooperate. And it probably is useless against an enemy on defensive (it relies on an enemy being on th eoffensive.) This can depend on equipment, commanders/officers, and even specific forces.

The Tau I believed used this strategy against hte Vostroyans in "Cities of Death" and it worked quite well. (although only after they tried shelling the fuck out of their prepared position, and proved incapable of budging them out easily from the position they'd held.) And even then the Tau outnumbered the Vostroyans quite a bit.
Tau do not hold positions by choice. Defensively, the Earth Caste construct bunkers and fortifications to provide shetler from long range or aerial bombardment. Sometimes they construct a hidden bunker or Run'al to allow close observation of the enemy. Neither are intended for static defence.
?? The Tau don't consider bunkers and forts to be "Static" locations or "holding" a position? You cant take those with you, and sticking in one spot nullifies mobility. Against enemies whose bombardments can be massive (like the Guard), this could conceivably pin you in place for a long time. Nevermind anything like orbital or aerial bombardment. Especially if its NOT "by choice"

In fact those are the kind of bombardment the Guard excel at, and its one reason they use bombardments (pin the enemy in position until their forces are prepared to attack.) This could be a good way to negate Tau counterfire (esp orbital support) and allow the Imperial forces to close.
The Fire caste are entirely committed to mobile warfare in which targets are idetnified, tracked and killed in an efficient and cautious manner. The Tau regard close combat as primitive and always plan their attacks around the application of firepower.
The "application of firepower" and "efficient and cautious" manner all sound nice, but not the "entirely committed to mobile warfare" bit. That sounds suspiciously like over-specialization to me. I'm pretty sure even modern military forces admit to a need to take/hold ground of SOME kind, especially a place to store all the stuff they need to WAGE war. A mobile force cannot exist mobile without fuel or ammo or anything like that, and supply vehicles are a finite quantity (and you can't refuel, rearm, repair, etc. when moving)? Ya gotta stop sometime.

Logistics is as importtant to fighting wars as firepower and information and mobility.

And again, this assumes the enemy apparently is iuncapable of noticing you tracking him, or detecting you back, which may or may not be the case.
Tau cities are not fortified except under the direst circumstances and, wherever possible, they attempt to either draw enemy attacks away or slow the enemy advance while an evacuation is performed. Once a city is evacuated, the Tau will defend it just as they would a region of rocky ravines, and many variants of Kauyon are solely concerned with exploiting the peculiar layout of a ctiy.
As I mentioend before, one has to wonder about resource and supply bases and supply lines, if they don't defend cities? ARe they underground or what? It has to be somewhere, ,for the reasons outlined above.
The real problem here though is that it assumes that they actually HAVE time to evacuate civilians, which the enemy may not give them. What do they do if they're caught in the midst of an evac? Those sorts of activities don't allow for complete mobility. A prime example is what happens to the Tau in Kill Team, where a dropship of Imperial Guard forces attack them from orbit without warning. If the Tau get surprised, they don't neccesearily have time (or space to trade for time) to allow them to do what they want. And as mentioned, what if they faced Tyranids or Orks? I doubt they'd play nicely either, and conditions aren't always as ideal as the situation above seems to require.

And even then if you do evactuate you just give the enemy the ability to demolish all your hard work. One must think the tau are foolish to consider economic or industrial costs in abandoning a city. That city must always be rebuilt, which takes time, money, and resources from other things. And where do those evacuated people sleep and seek shelter? How do they feed themselves? Or provide a living? This is another thing Imperial Guard artillery is good at, after all.

Again, there seem to be things tau doctrine utterly fail to address.
On the rare occasions when the Tau are absolutely compelled ot defend a vital resource, they still apply their traditional techniques. In this case, the Mont'ka is applied as lightning fast forays out of the defences, each aimed at killing the enemy that pose the greatest threat. The Kauyon is represented by feigned retreat from the perimeter to draw the attacker into a well-prepared kill zone.
Again, this is fine.. but what do they call a "vital resource?" They already admitted they won't defend cities unless they have to. Do their supply lines and resourcee bases count? Factories? Defending a static location always means trading off a measure of mobility - something the Imperium understands. For the most part what is described above does not sound vastly different from what the Imperium might do - attack mobilely from a fortified location (Key examples: Jouran Dragoons from STorm of Iron, Narmenians defending Vervunhive in Necropolis, the Armageddon Steel Legions, etc.)
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

For all their multi-species assimilation, the Tau don't seem anywhere near as varied as the Imperium's many military forces and the sub-sections of each. I mean, look at the Guard. They've got everything from horse cavalry to Fedayeen to WWI troopers to Nazis to entire armies composed of JOHN RAMBO.

I hope someone will lay waste to the Tau's craps.
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Post by NecronLord »

It's worth noting that the Sept of Vior'la's cities at least are fortified - against the climate, if nothing else. From the WD description of the place it appears that on that planet, at least, the Tau are very, very, well dug in. It may be that the fire caste are aware of the necessity of defending their homes, but that other cities elsewhere are not designed as the Fire Caste would like them to be.

Perhaps the planners and rulers wish to project an image of openness, or avoid allowing the standard earth caste peon to wonder why they need heavy fortifications.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

NecronLord wrote:It's worth noting that the Sept of Vior'la's cities at least are fortified - against the climate, if nothing else. From the WD description of the place it appears that on that planet, at least, the Tau are very, very, well dug in. It may be that the fire caste are aware of the necessity of defending their homes, but that other cities elsewhere are not designed as the Fire Caste would like them to be.

Perhaps the planners and rulers wish to project an image of openness, or avoid allowing the standard earth caste peon to wonder why they need heavy fortifications.
Maybe its a particular Sept habit. Most 40K races tend to "specialize" into subsets (Ork Clans, Eldar Craftworlds, etc.) so this probably wouldn't be any different.

It also may be something "unofficial" but "learned through experience." The Tau seem to be as big on propoganda and dogma as the Imperium can be, and the "dedication to mobility" may just be "offical Tau Doctrine/Party Line." and like some factions in the Imperium (or Orks, or Eldar) certain tau may embrace other aspects unofficially.

An example could be the unofficial use of 5 man "fire teams" to further break down squads, which isn't technically officially part of the IG organizational sturcture, but is "generally accepted" or at least tolerated.
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Post by Lord Revan »

At least in DoW:Soulstorm the Tau are fortifying the system (said during the Tau stronghold mission), but I dunno how canon it is.
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Post by NecronLord »

Oh, they definately understand it; they have defence orbitals for a start.
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Post by Cykeisme »

In the games that the Tau have appeared in so far, they don't seem adverse to fortifying the space and ground around what they intend to be a new Sept world.

Of course, in-game, like every other enemy, they hurl endless waves of units at you, regardless of how many you slaughter.
However, if we take the (logical) SW canon policy to this, we can dismiss these events as game mechanics, while still taking the descriptions and plot in the game shell to be of higher canon, then we can still glean something out of this, as follows:

Just as when they attack, in defense, the Tau plan their entire strategy out to the finest detail. They build massive and complex defense grids composed of interplanetary cannons, orbital platforms for tactical bombardment of enemy forces, and apparently a defense grid of surface-based weapons capable of destroying warships in space.

However, when things don't go according to plan, they're just as inflexible as on offense; the house of cards starts to collapse when they are attacked in an unforeseen manner.

Admittedly the game mentions that their detection grid was not complete at the time the moon of Nan Yanoi was infiltrated and subsequently assaulted, but basically any enemy force that made it to the surface would have been capable of capturing portions of their orbital defenses and widen the gap to allow room for further assault forces.

Also, though their defenses (if completed) are described as being able to ward off "any" assault from orbit, but even at full readiness, this likely doesn't take into account the sheer scale of a serious full-out Imperial crusade fleet or an Orky WAAAGH of Ghazghkull's like.
Brute force would probably take it anyway, though I think even in a no-win situation like this, the Tau would likely be able to evacuate their civilians.
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Post by NecronLord »

They don't have the webway; evacuation is entirely dependant on having space superiority to make it something but a deathtrap.
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Post by Lord Revan »

yeah I took it as "unassailble (to any force worth sending there)" not as "would be able to repulse the combinied forces off all the other races with ease".
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Post by Cykeisme »

We're not talking about "combined forces of all the other races with ease", or even "combined forces of any one race".
A single Imperial fleet of even one tenth the mobilization that stood in the way of Abaddon's Thirteeth Black Crusade or Hive Fleet Kraken would be overkill for steamrolling the entire Tau Empire.


Besides, even if we ignore game mechanics as I'd stated, the canonicity of Soulstorm is called into question with a lot of glaring "fluff" mistakes, such as Baneblades being produced in mass numbers (not just assembled but manufactured on a non-Adeptus Mechanicus controlled, non-Forge World. This is out-of-game plot blurb, too.
That's just one problem, there are others. The entire game was a stick in the eye for even a relatively non-hardcore 40k fan.
Ironlore Entertainment clearly didn't do anywhere near the same amount of background research that the original Relic team did on all the earlier games in the series (especially for the very first DoW).

Hence, the fact that fortification of the Tau-occupied moon seems to go against all canon laid down for Tau military behaviour shouldn't be surprising, really.
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Post by NecronLord »

Cykeisme wrote: Besides, even if we ignore game mechanics as I'd stated, the canonicity of Soulstorm is called into question with a lot of glaring "fluff" mistakes, such as Baneblades being produced in mass numbers (not just assembled but manufactured on a non-Adeptus Mechanicus controlled, non-Forge World. This is out-of-game plot blurb, too.
Nothing wrong with that. There's lots of non-mechanicus manufacture - the shadowsword plant from Final Liberation springs to mind. There'll be tech-priests somewhere, you can be sure.
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Post by Cykeisme »

Hrm, okay, but for some reason a non-Forge World manufacturing entire regiments of Baneblades at a time for local in-system PDF seemed a bit odd.
Though perhaps my knowledge of super-heavy tank manufacturing in the Imperium is lacking :(
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Post by NecronLord »

Well, in the cutscene from the older game, they appeared to be coming off the production line at a rate of one every few seconds; though that may just have been a parade or something. It's of the Commissar General and his aide watching shadowswords zoom past and smugly reporting that the "Shadowsword production facilities are back in operation" or some such.

Of course, that planet was an old Segmentum Solar world, and possibly one the Mechanicus were very interested in, given that it had titans preserved in it.
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