Tau: "Good" Guys? (WH40K)

Shadowtraveler · Post by **Shadowtraveler** » 2006-11-29 10:29pm

Stas Bush wrote:
Fire Warrior, anyone?
Isn't he (and his enclaves) technically a "privateer" on Tau's service but who has lots of leeway and thus can occasionaly conflict with the Empire itself? Like a rogue Francis Drake? His Enclaves are so territorially secluded technically they're not much of a cause of concern for the Tau especially as he seems to support them against any external foe. That's what I thought.

I'm talking about the book Fire Warrior. The one where there's mention of "mental correction" in the first chapter alone.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-12-01 01:13am

Mental correction for those who break rules of military discipline, as far as I understood. It might be a harsh measure, but note that these are soldiers, and those which are supposed to fight for the Tau Empire with unquestionable loyalty. Compared to what measures the IoM has for it's soldiers, the Tau is only doing the minimally necessary, and frankly, the character remarks that none of the Tau soldiers are stupid enough to openly disregard superiors. Given that the Tau see their Empire as a machine, literally, a technological mechanism with sentient "cogs", it is obvious that the cogs have to function perfectly.

The question is, is the Tau "sentient machine" really benevolent or not, is it worthy to have it's principles enforced on the Tau. So far they represent far more progress and benevolence than the Imperium or Chaos ever did. In fact, they're possibly the only power that actually behaves in a more or less benevolent fashion.

Of course, if their Empire has secret sinister goals as opposed to good and virtuous ones, this renders the point moot.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-12-01 02:14am

Stas Bush wrote:.
The question is, is the Tau "sentient machine" really benevolent or not, is it worthy to have it's principles enforced on the Tau. So far they represent far more progress and benevolence than the Imperium or Chaos ever did. In fact, they're possibly the only power that actually behaves in a more or less benevolent fashion.

Of course, if their Empire has secret sinister goals as opposed to good and virtuous ones, this renders the point moot.

Well the Tau may not be as overtly evil as the Imperium humans, Eldar and C'Tan, what with their relatively peaceful caste society, technology actually used properly and treating most non-Tau in a semi-decent fashion. But it would be for nothing if the Tau Empire are just another set of pawns for the uber-Machiavellian C'Tan (well the Tau got very advanced in a relatively short amount of time and the Ethereal are likely non-Tau in origin inspite of their Tau appearance).

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-12-01 05:24am

Stas Bush wrote:So far they represent far more progress and benevolence than the Imperium [...] ever did.

Have you read the Horus Heresy books?

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-12-01 05:52am

Have you read the Horus Heresy books?

Yes. Perhaps I have been mistaken indeed, the pre-Heresy Imperium had been fairly progressive and in some ways much similar to what the Tau strive to achieve now. But wasn't the Inquistion present before the Heresy? If so, what is the excuse for that, I mean the Emperor did not forsee the Horus Heresy and the theocratic goth-Empire that was to come, right?

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2006-12-01 05:59am

Stas Bush wrote:
Have you read the Horus Heresy books?
Yes. Perhaps I have been mistaken indeed, the pre-Heresy Imperium had been fairly progressive and in some ways much similar to what the Tau strive to achieve now. But wasn't the Inquistion present before the Heresy? If so, what is the excuse for that, I mean the Emperor did not forsee the Horus Heresy and the theocratic goth-Empire that was to come, right?

The only part of the Inquisition around during that time was the Order of the Hammer, which became the Ordo Malleus of the Inquisition, the daemon hunters. Since they were directly founded by the Emperor, the head of the Ordo Malleus is the only member of the Inquisition to have the right to an audience with the Emperor. The other ordos were formed latter, after the Emperor was on the Golden Throne.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-12-01 07:13am

We don't really know what the Ordo Malleus was like back then, but its remit was purely in dealing with demon incursions anyway, rather than preying on the populance.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-12-01 07:31am

NecronLord wrote:We don't really know what the Ordo Malleus was like back then, but its remit was purely in dealing with demon incursions anyway, rather than preying on the populance.

Having a ruthless secret police defending the state and population against attacks from inter-dimansional beings of pure evil and hatred is understandable, what sort of foul deeds do the other post-Heresy departments of the Inquisition do?

And during the Great Crusade, what did the God Emperor of Man envision for his galaxy spanning "utopia"?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-12-01 09:45am

Big Orange wrote:Having a ruthless secret police defending the state and population against attacks from inter-dimansional beings of pure evil and hatred is understandable, what sort of foul deeds do the other post-Heresy departments of the Inquisition do?

They horribly excecute and torture people for heresy, even when there don't seem to be particularly important stakes. Pretty much everything else the Inquisition as a whole does is forgivable, and there are good reasons it has the powers it does.

And during the Great Crusade, what did the God Emperor of Man envision for his galaxy spanning "utopia"?

Supposedly some kind of democracy{?} run by the Council of Terra using the webway for communications and transport.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-12-01 10:35am

Would aliens be spared, with human psychics and even mutants contained in a much more humane manner?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-12-01 11:07am

Big Orange wrote:Would aliens be spared,

Hell no. Practically every alien worth mentioning in 40K, especially back then, was out to enslave humanity. If they stayed out of the way, they'd maybe not be horrifyingly killed

with human psychics and even mutants contained in a much more humane manner?

The Emperor planned to make humanity entirely psychic. Mutant treatement is unknown.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-12-01 01:01pm

NecronLord wrote: Hell no. Practically every alien worth mentioning in 40K, especially back then, was out to enslave humanity. If they stayed out of the way, they'd maybe not be horrifyingly killed

Well I guess the Orks and Eldar were perhaps on the top of the list of alien races that had isolated human colonies under their control (although there were few unknown races - most likely rendered extinct, post-Great Crusade).

The Emperor planned to make humanity entirely psychic. Mutant treatement is unknown.

Well since he had a great understanding over highly advanced human gene therapy (hence the super beings like Space Marines and the Primarchs), I guess he could've found humane ways of successfully treating most mutations.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-12-01 03:40pm

I must still ask why there is so much goth and religious atrributes in a supposedly secular Imperium (I know the Emperor originally was against religion)? Even before Horus, the Emperor and the legions, already bore a lot of attributes that are religious.

As for aliens, did any of the 40K powers, the Tau aside, practice other approaches versus complete xenocide? Did the eldar ever peacefully coexist with humans, or not?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-12-01 03:45pm

Stas Bush wrote:I must still ask why there is so much goth and religious atrributes in a supposedly secular Imperium (I know the Emperor originally was against religion)? Even before Horus, the Emperor and the legions, already bore a lot of attributes that are religious.

Becaue people generally end up wanting to believe in something, and when you has a leader as inspirational as the Emperor, you're going to get a cult of personality times one thousand whether he likes it or not. Especially as society's devolved to a semi-fuedalistic level at this stage, and worse on some planets.

As for aliens, did any of the 40K powers, the Tau aside, practice other approaches versus complete xenocide? Did the eldar ever peacefully coexist with humans, or not?

They did. There's a group of humans in one of the books (Horus Rising, I think) that has an uneven-but-favourable relationship with a few other species, and was in turn, taught many things by the Eldar, including some way to build a society that resists chaos without fucking up horribly. Alas, this knowledge was lost (and this culture destroyed) due to that steaming turd Erebus.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2006-12-01 07:09pm

Some of the Eldar are on relatively good terms with humanity (varies from craftworld to craftworld ). A few Orks managed passable relations with humans, most notably the now mostly defunct Blood Axe tribe which is willing to trade and work as mercenaries for humans.