Scenario: SW Galactic Empire vs. WH:40K Imperium of Man

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-01-11 02:35pm

GE might actually benefit from their total lack of knowledge about the daemons. It seems to me the daemons in 40K affect people who have knowledge of them more easily than those who who've never heard of them.
The IoM keeps a tight lid on the daemon matter, one reason is "You can't look for it, if you don't know it's there." Close presence to the emperor blinds the daemons to your precence. (This just my speculation, but not wholly unsupported one. All powerful beings seem to have this effect in 40K, and if someone can provide with more insight on the matter please do.)
Being in the same system should be close enough.

-Gunhead

Falkenhayn · Post by **Falkenhayn** » 2005-01-12 08:11pm

Gunhead wrote:GE might actually benefit from their total lack of knowledge about the daemons. It seems to me the daemons in 40K affect people who have knowledge of them more easily than those who who've never heard of them.
The IoM keeps a tight lid on the daemon matter, one reason is "You can't look for it, if you don't know it's there." Close presence to the emperor blinds the daemons to your precence. (This just my speculation, but not wholly unsupported one. All powerful beings seem to have this effect in 40K, and if someone can provide with more insight on the matter please do.)
Being in the same system should be close enough.

-Gunhead

There have been demonic cults and possessions on every planet of the Imperium. What you are saying is tantamount to standing in the middle of a gym on game night and thinking your invisible because your eyes are closed.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-01-13 07:16am

There have been demonic cults and possessions on every planet of the Imperium. What you are saying is tantamount to standing in the middle of a gym on game night and thinking your invisible because your eyes are closed.[/quote]

No, what I'm saying is that there would be more cults and posessions if knowledge of daemons would be widespread, since any powerhungry idiot could ask chaos gods for help. If the chaos gods could corrupt people just by snapping their fingers, there would be no IoM.

-Gunhead

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2005-01-13 08:49am

No, if the Emperor and the Inquisition weren't around to A) keep that from happening, and B) blast the holy bejesus out of anyone it happens to, there would be no IoM.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-01-13 09:17am

The way I see it, the Emperor keeps the chaos at bay in the warp. At the same time the Inquisition runs around preventing the cults from telling people about daemons and chaos gods. This about right no?
So as long as a man doesn't accept chaos he's safe from posession, in the lines of "the only one who can corrupt your soul is you".

It's been said that the guiding light of the Emperor fades as you distance yourself from terra. So it would sound logical if this same guiding light prevents the chaos gods from "seeing" the little dots that humans make into the warp. Like putting a candle next to a searchlight. Searchlight=emperor candle=normal human. But if you put a lot of candles into a bunch (a cult) they'd be seen.Specially the further away you are from the Emperor. I think the candle analogy is valid.

-Gunhead

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2005-01-13 09:50am

The way I see it, the Emperor keeps the chaos at bay in the warp. At the same time the Inquisition runs around preventing the cults from telling people about daemons and chaos gods. This about right no?
So as long as a man doesn't accept chaos he's safe from posession, in the lines of "the only one who can corrupt your soul is you".

Not quite. The "what you can't see can't hurt you" argument doesn't hold much validity: Average Joe Citizen can be corrupted just as easily as a sector figurehead with the wealth and means to acquire such knowledge, like a merchant lord, Administratum official, or whatever. In a similar vein, both Ordo Malleus Inquisitors (those who specialize in dealing with daemons) and the Grey Knights have vast knowledge of all things daemonic; Inquisitors are fallible and fall to Chaos all the time, but no Grey Knight has ever faltered even for a moment.

Stormtroopers would be resistant to the temptations of the Warp, given their discipline and devotion to Palpy, but not immune (only the Grey Knights, and logically the Adeptus Custodes have that honor to my knowledge). The officer corps would be susceptible, however - Tzeentch loves ambitious young upstarts.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-01-13 10:05am

"Average Joe Citizen can be corrupted just as easily as a sector figurehead with the wealth and means to acquire such knowledge, like a merchant lord, Administratum official, or whatever."

Yes, but as long as they can't get their hands on such knowledge they'd be pretty safe. They cannot worship something they don't know that exists. Of course if a chaos god would send its daemon or a cultist to spread the word they'd be granted that knowledge and become susceptible to its influence.

In a nutshell: Some knowledge of the chaos is needed to be influenced. The exception would be psykers, latent or otherwise. The amount of knowledge can be abysmal, but it's enough you get the person who you're trying to corrupt at least interested and human nature will do the rest.

-Gunhead

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-01-13 10:15am

A little additional note.

A high lord or a wealthy merchant would be actually more susceptible to corruption because they have the means and influence to seek forbidden knowledge, and are more powerhungry to begin with than the average farmer joe.

-Gunhead

Lancer · Post by **Lancer** » 2005-01-13 11:20am

Gunhead wrote: In a nutshell: Some knowledge of the chaos is needed to be influenced. The exception would be psykers, latent or otherwise. The amount of knowledge can be abysmal, but it's enough you get the person who you're trying to corrupt at least interested and human nature will do the rest.

this is akin to someone saying "if I don't know about the force, then it has no effect over me!"

Chaos draws it's basic power from human emotion. It can use that to influence people. So unless the Imperials have as tight a clamp on their emotions as Vulcans, they'll still be susceptible to corruption.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2005-01-13 11:40am

Gunhead wrote:"Average Joe Citizen can be corrupted just as easily as a sector figurehead with the wealth and means to acquire such knowledge, like a merchant lord, Administratum official, or whatever."

Yes, but as long as they can't get their hands on such knowledge they'd be pretty safe. They cannot worship something they don't know that exists. Of course if a chaos god would send its daemon or a cultist to spread the word they'd be granted that knowledge and become susceptible to its influence.

In a nutshell: Some knowledge of the chaos is needed to be influenced. The exception would be psykers, latent or otherwise. The amount of knowledge can be abysmal, but it's enough you get the person who you're trying to corrupt at least interested and human nature will do the rest.

-Gunhead

This would not mesh with the way Chaos is known to affect things, simply as a sort of Warp Irradiation, inducing mental and physical mutation.

contact with warp radiation/energy affected air would be enough to do it, or touching something, eating something, being cut by a cultist blade, etc

Its not as limited as this "blight" thing I've heard mentioned.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2005-01-13 11:59am

Consider the low-tech world encountered in Grey Knights. The people being affected by Chaos (including massive mutations and chaos sorcery) didn't even know it existed. They thought they were fighting FOR THE EMPEROR.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-01-13 12:17pm

Huang what it means it you cannot worship the force as a god if you don't know it exists. Or ask it to grant you powers etc. Same goes for chaos gods.

Rabbit, in all the cases you stated there is a medium for spreading the corruption be it mental or physical, it's there. If I haven't been clear enough I'll say it now. A medium is requires to corrupt people, mental or physical, any form of contact will do but it has to be there.

Same goes for you Haven. On primitive planet someone just didn't go "Hey today I'll worship slaanesh 'cos I gots to get laid." Something or someone dropped the first hint, even a tiny one and then it snowballed.

Initially mids the empire there are no channels for chaos, they'd have to introduced by servants of chaos. We don't know are there any latent psykers in the imperial forces. They should have a presence in the warp but see below.

Still waiting input on that candle theory I proposed.

-Gunhead

Lancer · Post by **Lancer** » 2005-01-13 12:31pm

*sigh*

You do not need knowledge of chaos to be affected by it. Horus was corrupted by chaos, and he didn't even realize it until it was too late to do anything about it.

Furthermore, chaos can manifest itself in far more subtle ways than a bunch of crazy cultists trying to spread the word around.

As white rabbit pointed out, exposure to the warp alone is a medium for corruption. And since all humans are defined to have a presence in the warp (the Eldar as well), without the protection of the emperor (who is a warp entity in his own right), his fanatical agents, and some technology unique to the 40k-verse, the Imperium of Man would rapidly be corrupted by chaos.

The Empire does not have any this protection. Stormtroopers may be abe to resist through sheer discipline, but once the officers (who are for the most part fairly ambitious and thus easy marks) have been corrupted, there's little the stormtroopers will be able to do against corruption.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-01-13 12:37pm

So the Emperor of man would allow the corruption of the imperial force and this would make sense how? So they'd get a form of travel that makes IoM ships look like a snails in a blizzard?
Also what tech makes IoM humans immune to the warp?

-Gunhead

Lancer · Post by **Lancer** » 2005-01-13 01:22pm

He dosn't allow for it. It's a combination of fanatical devotion to the emperor, his status and powers as a de-facto warp god, his followers routinely purging those affected by chaos, and Gellar Field technology that keeps the IoM from mass-infection by chaos.

Out of those 4 measures, the Empire has not one.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-01-13 01:33pm

Well actually I was talking about the Emperor of man allowing the Invading imperial force to get corrupted. Then chaos forces would get the tech and stuff. (Should have been more precise about that, oh well.)
Isn't the gellar field something used in warp engines? I don't remember any piece of fluff saying there being purpose built Gellar field generators.

-Gunhead

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2005-01-13 02:03pm

Ignorance helps, but not by much. Even the Tau can feel the pull of Chaos without even knowing about it, and they're generally too tough/weak(Out of the crew and troops of an entire Tau cruiser, a daemon found only one Tau fit for corruption) for Chaos to even bother trying in all but the most dire of circumstances. Even then, the rest of Tau could feel the Chaos just through seeing/fighting it's minions.

And how did the daemon get to that one Tau? Through his own ambition and drive to prove himself to his father. He didn't even realize it was Chaotic corruption until the daemon told him.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2005-01-13 03:33pm

Rabbit, in all the cases you stated there is a medium for spreading the corruption be it mental or physical, it's there. If I haven't been clear enough I'll say it now. A medium is requires to corrupt people, mental or physical, any form of contact will do but it has to be there.

Indeed, and the medium can pretty much be anything, and it is NOT combatable by any science, possibly even force healing available to the Empire.

Your argument was "knowledge" mine, and others, was that its far more of a broadband vector than that.

Isn't the gellar field something used in warp engines? I don't remember any piece of fluff saying there being purpose built Gellar field generators.

The Gellar field is what protects a vessel in warp space. However, evidence suggests that Void shields either produce a gellar field effect, or they can be operated in parallel with void shields.

i.e. Rogue psykers shielded by Void screens being reinforced by Astropaths/Primary psykers in the Eisenhorn books, various examples of comments about "shield depletetion" during warp transit. etc.

Spiritbw · Post by **Spiritbw** » 2005-01-13 04:18pm

I was under the impression the Geller fields basicly make it possible for a ship to survive in the warp, not to protect it from influnce. The idea was, I thought, that the field keeps the real world existing in a certain area so the ship doesn't come apart at the edges beccause physics just went out the window when they enter the warp. the only reason the demons couldn't get at the ship was they ahd no way of manifesting in that 'reality' without a host and/or ritual to give them physical form. Hence when Imperium ships travel in the warp there is a keen watch for anyone displaying particular behavior.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-01-13 04:19pm

Then this gellar field protection goes out the windows since it would protect about 0.1% of IoM population. That's being generous.

Rabbit I actually took knowledge as a prime example since it's the easiest way the get people "hooked". I'm not that badly versed in 40K stuff. Give me some credit here.

So one glaring point is still there, I said, and I'm still saying, the main anti-corruptor is the Emperor of man. What would he gain if he allowed the invading force to become corrupted by chaos.

I already put forward my theory so lets hear it people.
My theory of course being that close proximity to the emperor would actually protect the Invading force. Nobody has refuted this, directly. (Well huang kinda but he just said the power of the Emperor wouldn't protect them) I want to know why, and what would the effects be.

-Gunhead

Spiritbw · Post by **Spiritbw** » 2005-01-13 04:40pm

Well, disputing a demon having effects close to Terra...one demon let a person see the throne room on Terra through a demonic device in the book Eye of Terror So obviously the Emperor doesn't create a protective field around the planet that keeps out demonic influence. No real protection there I guess.

Influence also could just start with a thought, not even a name. Develope toa habit or vice and so on. A officer might design a mark he thinks of as his own personal icon but not realize it's actually a demon's.

As for what the Emperor might see to be gained by letting Cahos get a foothold on those ships there are a few things. he could be laying the groud wrok for later things. Imagine if the Empire and some chaos tainted crew started a battle for control and in the end wiped each other out? One empty SD hanging up there and oh look...Mars is just over there.......

It could also work in a longer term idea. Let some crew get infected/influenced. Get your own influence in there to let the Empire realize there are possible worse things here than the Imperium to worry about. Empire which is rather pro-human itself finds it easy to fall into an allaince of convenience<sp?> against chaos. Things become more political between the two that open warfare where they might ahve equal footing or even a leg up over thier Empire coutner parts.

Just a thought.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-01-13 05:04pm

"Well, disputing a demon having effects close to Terra...one demon let a person see the throne room on Terra through a demonic device in the book Eye of Terror So obviously the Emperor doesn't create a protective field around the planet that keeps out demonic influence. No real protection there I guess. "

Did it say explicitly that it actually showed the throneroom? If I was a demon I would show some dummy "the throneroom" like he would know what it looks like.

Saying that the emperors guiding light doesn't protect the people against the corruption then what does? Fanaticm? Fooling a fanatic is like stealing candy from a kid. Fanatics are not known for great their depth of knowledge. They know what they are told, and act on it. In 40K you're supposed to guard against perversion and jaddajaddajaa. Basically everyone. In a society that paranoid a daemon could make someone think everyone are demons and of he goes to be daemon fodder. Or pull about zillion plus other dirty tricks, these people are not prepared for. Simply because they don't know them. Without the emperors protection 99% IoM population is fucked(directly that is, the final 1% would follow). So they have to covered by the man from warpside.

-Gunhead

Spiritbw · Post by **Spiritbw** » 2005-01-13 05:27pm

Did it state it explicitly? No, it didn't. It could have been a mock up by the demon.

Ah, just a clarification, the 'Guiding light' is usually the name for the Astronomicon. The thousand strong psycher choir that acts as a beacon for ships in the warp by giving them a definative point of refenace. It has no protective powers. Most are infact Fanatics and yes, get fooled. See the planet quoted above or even Soul Drinker where a chapter of Marines get fooled.

The Emperor and his saints(for lack of a better term) seem to be more and more doing something similar to inspire it's own side. We have examples of saints and/or angels talking to faithful in Ghostmaker, The Guns of Tanith, and Execution Hour. They get directly involved a few times too as in in Sabbat Martyr. The Emperor's champion of some SM chapters is chosen beause he has visions granted by the Emperor which oftne help in the mission sometimes as see in Battle for Armageddon Still, as you said it's easy to be fooled and there are many versions of the Imperial cult that get wiped out by Inquisitors all the time. The Inquisition is always busy and always hunting down heretics, demons and others even amongst thier own ranks.

The Emperor only seems to offer garanteed protection if your working to further his divine will or protect the Imperium out of faith. Even then you got some chance because the demons and the gods are not omni-potent. They can have thier attention focused elsewhere by events it seems(though this is just an observation).

Now I'm babbling. Summing up, yes thier screwed. 40k is basicly one big war that is going on spiritually as well as physically. Everyone is a pawn, everyone in the line of fire. Weither you get hit or not depends half on luck, half on wiether the higher ups in all this see anything to be gained from you or your world or by trying to force a move that will give them an advantage in the future.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2005-01-13 06:00pm

ok, heres my grand plan of conquest.

step 1 - use scout droids to map out the galaxy, get planet numbers, and the like.
step 2 - death star cadia. the warp will go crazy, and all the demons will come out. iom has collective shit fit, and rushes all their troops foward.
step 3 - wait 10 years or so for the majority of troops to be moved. send the deathstar to star systems around cadia, and nuke every planet. send it to Sol and hit every planet except earth. use the massive number of turborlasers to deal with the iom ships.
step 4 - bring in a few thousand world devastators and work over the ruins. bdz every continent except europe, and land world devastors there, to pump out millions of battle droids. use the world devastators in the astoried belts to land even more droids.

I figure, that gives you a few decades to take europe, and they wont be getting reinforcements anytime soon. meanwhile, you have 60 odd deconstructed planets and moons, as well as thousands of ships, to turn into droids.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2005-01-13 06:00pm

the joy of this is that the mass necessary is two ds2s - practically nonexistent. the sw galaxy wont even notice they are missing.