Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

[Connor MacLeod]

Well warp travel isn't predictable, and the Imperium (and most other races) rely most often on stable 'route's through the storm activity to reach their destinations. And routes can be temporarily cut off by natural or artificially created means (Tyranids and Choas are well known for fucking with wArp travel) and IIRC most depots are positioned on major trade networks so that if one route is cut off the supplies can reach by another. Or if the main sources of supplies (industrial or agri or whatever the supplies are.) it can act as a backup supplier.

That's probably all secondary though. I suspect the primarry purpose of the depot worlds, aside from being a dumping ground for overproduction (I tend to think they produce more military shit than they actually use, although I can't prove it) due to their 'siege mentality', but also as a place to draw resources from if they have to supply large numbers of suddenly-raised troops (conscrpits, etc.) as well as feed them. Some regiments may not be equipped with all the vehicles and equipment they need to carry out their roles and so sometimes stop off at forge worlds to acquire it. The depot worlds may be the alternate place (to pick up tanks or artillery or such.) Or if a infantry force needs ground transportation for some reason for a given conflict (or other supplies) they may stop off en route to the warp and pick up what they need.

[Zinegata]

Yeah, and in Straight Silver the trench war tactics are explicitly presented as stupid, obsolete, and badly thought out by the Guard officers present.

To be fair, it isn't entirely clear whether the PDF troopers in Straight Silver are simply inexperienced or they're slavishly following trench warfare doctrine for reasons of pride and tradition (probably a little of both). And Gaunt's regiment is a "scout" regiment whose light infantry doctrine is explicitly at odds with massed trench warfare.

But it's worth noting that while both Chaos and Imperial reinforcements arrive to help impart new tactics, the war still essentially boils down to 1918-style (at best) World War 1 combat without tanks - which involves heavy use of infiltration (Gaunt's Ghosts) or shock (Blood Pact) tactics to achieve territorial gains.

[Zinegata]

This would still raise the question of, they have hundreds of years of canned food? 2lb of food and packaging per person per day for 8 million people for 200 years would be... 584 million tons! That's basically one MRE per day too, though dehydration could reduce it a fair bit. Still going to be past the hundred million ton range. The storage space required would be rather vast, and I suspect larger then the required space for hydroponics farms. Maybe the limit is fertilizer. In any event, I doubt a good explanation exists for such an absurd time frame.

Well, I made a mistake by saying "canned food" - because the Imperium doesn't actually rely on these very much. Standard Guard rations tend to be more along the lines of tasteless mush (from the Sabbat Worlds) or "corpse starch" with all of its unfortunate implications (from Dark Heresy). And rations do seem to come in MRE-style packaging, at least based on the Munitorium Manual.

Food processing via hydrophonics or... "recycling" certainly isn't out of the question; and I suspect that the special ops that were part of the 150-year plan would involve sabotage of such facilities.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually rations don't have any one particular 'type'. People coming from different planets and backgrounds and whatnot seem to have some variation in biological, nutritional, and caloric requirements, and there can be dangers if things get messed up (one regiment getting rations from the wrong world could make them ill because they're not used to that sort of food.) Rations can come in all forms and types. From some sort of foil wrapped protein or grain bars, to those types of soldier rations that you put in a bag and add hot water to 'heat' (self heating IIRC or is that different - they mention that again int he Munitorum manual and I'm too lazy to check.) and another source mentions 'corpse rations' (which is more a 'joke' than literal food, although we know some hive worlds big on resource recycling use corpse starch..). Local provisions may also be used to supplement food supplies if need be (and if the guardsmen can handle it.) or they may just have the 'gray mush', What the munitorum food lines give them is a separate kind of meal than the rations they get on the move.

It may ven be a procurment issue - one world's 'bids' for rations may be cheaper than anothers so the Munitorum goes with that one as long as it meets the guidelines (or the world bribes the right people.) That can pretty mcuh go for any equipment really.

[Zinegata]

Actually rations don't have any one particular 'type'. People coming from different planets and backgrounds and whatnot seem to have some variation in biological, nutritional, and caloric requirements, and there can be dangers if things get messed up (one regiment getting rations from the wrong world could make them ill because they're not used to that sort of food.)

Yeah, this was mentioned in the Munitorium Manual. But Abnett contradicts this in Sabbat Worlds (in one of his "prequel" short stories featuring Gaunt) wherein Gaunt ends up eating some kind of standardized mush, which he notes is the standard meal of the Imperial Guard and he'd been munching on it since he was a cadet. Gaunt even notes that to prevent the Guardsmen from getting tired of its blandness, cooks had to find creative ways of serving it - i.e. by frying it, boiling it, or serving it with some local foods.

It could be something that's unique to the Sabbat Sector however, and there are certainly different rations available. Gaunt is eating ham and eggs ("Officer's Rations") in his very first scene in First-and-Only.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah, and in Straight Silver the trench war tactics are explicitly presented as stupid, obsolete, and badly thought out by the Guard officers present.

That may just be true in context of the SWC.. they've had years of experience in waging wars, and Slaydo (and Macaroth) were vastly different commanders than alot (like Chenkov)

The problem with the Guard is that they are (theme wise) an very generalist army. You're supposed to be able to pattern them after any sort of era or style of warfare you want which is why you can have things like Catachans, Death Korps, Steel Legion, etc. That's different from most of the more 'specialized' armies that may go for attrition (nids and Orks, although they have their own specializaations) or the Eldar and Tau (speed and mobility, firepower, and usually range.) It's not that the Guard is totally unfamiliar with those concepts, because there's lots of mention of them being so, its just that the races that specailize in it (whether attrition or manuever) are BETTER. The Imperium can't out attrition orks or Tyranids, and they usually can't out-maneuver Tau or Eldar. Their generalist nature (and their general lack of the extensive standardization of races like the tau and Eldar as far as equipment and vehicles go) are their main flaws.

This is also why any vs with an IG forces is always a 'depends on' situation. You have to establish the sort of regiment in detail that its supposed to face off against. An infantry regiment against a purely mecahnized military force in close quarters is probably going to get slaughtered, for example. As would a force that is raised from a feral, feudla, or napoleonic-era 'civilised' world (all of hwich exist.). But a regiment raised from a high tech world like a hive, industrial or more sophisticated civilized world like Armageddon or Necromunda would be a different story.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah, this was mentioned in the Munitorium Manual. But Abnett contradicts this in Sabbat Worlds (in one of his "prequel" short stories featuring Gaunt) wherein Gaunt ends up eating some kind of standardized mush, which he notes is the standard meal of the Imperial Guard and he'd been munching on it since he was a cadet. Gaunt even notes that to prevent the Guardsmen from getting tired of its blandness, cooks had to find creative ways of serving it - i.e. by frying it, boiling it, or serving it with some local foods.

It could be something that's unique to the Sabbat Sector however, and there are certainly different rations available. Gaunt is eating ham and eggs ("Officer's Rations") in his very first scene in First-and-Only.

That's not a contradiction. It just reflects the differences in equipment, standards, doctrine, etc that varies from world to world. Much of hte stuff in the Munitorum manual reflected the Cadian standard, so that would be applicable mainly to that sector, but it could apply (in one extent or naother) across other worlds.

Also you're confusing with the rations they eat when on the move/march or in battle with what they may be served in a base or cook tent. Sometimes they do one, sometimes the other, and sometimes both (the Munitorum manual mentions the Munitorum setting up cook tents remember, and we even see a picture of guardsmen getting served some sort of soup or slop out of a giant bowl)

[Lord Revan]

btw could it be possible that "standard ration" is some sort general mix based basic human physiology that's "good enough" for most if not all IG regiments but it's really optimal for any of them, kind of a food equilevant of a lasgun?

[Zinegata]

Yeah, and in Straight Silver the trench war tactics are explicitly presented as stupid, obsolete, and badly thought out by the Guard officers present.

The problem with the Guard is that they are (theme wise) an very generalist army. You're supposed to be able to pattern them after any sort of era or style of warfare you want which is why you can have things like Catachans, Death Korps, Steel Legion, etc. That's different from most of the more 'specialized' armies that may go for attrition (nids and Orks, although they have their own specializaations) or the Eldar and Tau (speed and mobility, firepower, and usually range.)

I wouldn't call them "generalist", although I get what you're trying to say. It's more of the Guard regiments varying widely in terms of strengths and weaknesses (Veteran Guard players will say that the IG list is the one that always gives players the most rope to hang themselves with - because you are liable to pick bad options which gimp your army) but the Munitorium insists on treating each regiment as a standardized body that is equivalent to any other. That tends to result in disaster when you end up sending a tank regiment to a swamp.

One thing that tends to annoy me however is how prevalent the "Planet of the Hats" trope applies to the Guard. Every Mordian regiment is a well-drilled machine of Napoleonic soldiers. Every Catcachan regiment is made up of highly independent Rambo wannabes who are supreme in jungle combat. Every Elysian is an elite volunteer paratrooper. Every Pardus trooper is born and bred to fight a mechanized war.

Very rarely do we see significant variances between regiments from the same world; or even troops from the same regiment. I'm personally trying to avoid that in the Guard fiction I write (i.e. having one company made up of tough highland troopers, while another are drawn from middle-class folks from the cities), because I really doubt that such level of "standardization" can be achieved.

[Zinegata]

Also you're confusing with the rations they eat when on the move/march or in battle with what they may be served in a base or cook tent. Sometimes they do one, sometimes the other, and sometimes both (the Munitorum manual mentions the Munitorum setting up cook tents remember, and we even see a picture of guardsmen getting served some sort of soup or slop out of a giant bowl)

No I'm not.

I understand what you're saying - the Guard have the equivalent of "A" rations (served at the base - good quality stuff), and "K" rations (eaten by troops on the move).

But the mush I referred to was served to Gaunt under camp conditions, which is why they were able to at least fry it first so it didn't taste like complete crap.

Again, it could be an oddity limited to the SWC, but it does show it's not unprecedented for an entire sector to be eating some kind of extremely standardized crap even as "base rations". Cadians may have an "A" or "K" ration, but in the SWC apparently everyone just gets "K"s unless they're able to buy, beg, or steal food from local sources (or corpses).

[Connor MacLeod]

I wouldn't call them "generalist", although I get what you're trying to say. It's more of the Guard regiments varying widely in terms of strengths and weaknesses (Veteran Guard players will say that the IG list is the one that always gives players the most rope to hang themselves with - because you are liable to pick bad options which gimp your army)...

They are very generalist. The IG is expected to be able to fight (with some degree) in virtually any situation and in any enviroment and in any sort of combat. This can run from city fighting and CQB type conflicts to trench or siege warfare to guerilla warfare and garrison duty. Look at all the different styles of combat the Ghosts get subjected to throughout the series, and they're supposed to be just light infantry and scouts.

Hell this is one of the points they make in Tactica Imperialis, and thats why you can have anti-infantry options for tanks, and anti-armour options for troops. They may take horrendous losses fighting in a situation they are not adapted to, but if the situation require sit (EG they don't get tank support because the transport wnet off course) they still have a chance of carrying off their mission.

..but the Munitorium insists on treating each regiment as a standardized body that is equivalent to any other. That tends to result in disaster when you end up sending a tank regiment to a swamp.

That's because its purely an administrative function. They treat a tank regiment as being the equal of an infantry reigment, and that doesn't even include whether the regiment is full strength or not. The degree to which units are kept track of probably depends on the level.. sector level and lower seem to have generally a better idea of what sorts of forces they have and what is getting sent where (at least going by the Jericho Reach conflict) but whenit comes to big, segmentum wide conflicts (Armageddon and 13th Black Crusade, or the Tyrannic wars) the entire process seems to become one huge mess and it mainyl works out simply throught he sheer volume of men and material they're throwing into the conflict.

The 'specialization' is also meant as a security measure, at least according to Tactica Imperialis. An infantry regiment that rebels can be crushed by a tank regiment, a tank regiment can be crushed by artillery, and an artillery regiment by infantry (sort of a rock-paper-scissors thing I guess.). This is not an absolute though, because many sources (particularily Imperial armour) tend to have regiments fielded in a combined-arms manner (with infantry, armour and artillery all in the same group. The Ghosts novels do this frequently as well.)

And even with specialities you can still have a particular world raise multiple kinds of regiments. We know in 5th edition the cAtachans have armour regiments as well as the infantry jungle fighters. The Tallarn have tank and infantry and mechanized as well as the rough riders. The Valhallans have infantry and mechanised and armour. Hell even the Krieg have more than just seige regiments (infantry, armour, etc. - vraks made a point of that recall.)

Even Elysians have their armoured forces (Dark Apostle) and may get forced to fight in a more conventional 'footslogger' manner if the situation requires (again Dark Apostle.)

One thing that tends to annoy me however is how prevalent the "Planet of the Hats" trope applies to the Guard. Every Mordian regiment is a well-drilled machine of Napoleonic soldiers. Every Catcachan regiment is made up of highly independent Rambo wannabes who are supreme in jungle combat. Every Elysian is an elite volunteer paratrooper. Every Pardus trooper is born and bred to fight a mechanized war.

Except that as I pointed out, its not that way. This is purely game mechanics, propoganda thematic BS, teh same way every Leman Russ tank has an absurdly tiny turret and an improbably huge gun that could not even realistically fire the shells of the size it carries. Or the grotestquely proportioned guns that all soldiers carry becuase big and blocky and covered in skulls is PROPER IMPERIAL THEME. Do you want to guess at how heavy the fricking laser rifles in the artwork would have to weigh if we scaled them to those proportions? I'm betting on something like a Ma Deuce.

Very rarely do we see significant variances between regiments from the same world; or even troops from the same regiment. I'm personally trying to avoid that in the Guard fiction I write (i.e. having one company made up of tough highland troopers, while another are drawn from middle-class folks from the cities), because I really doubt that such level of "standardization" can be achieved.

Except we do see significant variances. Cadians for example can field infantry, armour, mechanized, artillery and other regiments types, and may even mix and match them within a signle regiment (the CAdian 8th is a prime example of a 'mixed' type force.. it has mechanized, armour, artillery, etc.) You're ascribing a far greater standard of specialization to the Guard than actually exists. They aren't the tau. They go about things in a much more haphazard manner and only WISH they could be as organized/mind controlling as the tau (or at least, thats what the Administratum/munitorum wish they could.)

[Connor MacLeod]

No I'm not.

I understand what you're saying - the Guard have the equivalent of "A" rations (served at the base - good quality stuff), and "K" rations (eaten by troops on the move).

But the mush I referred to was served to Gaunt under camp conditions, which is why they were able to at least fry it first so it didn't taste like complete crap.

Again, it could be an oddity limited to the SWC, but it does show it's not unprecedented for an entire sector to be eating some kind of extremely standardized crap even as "base rations". Cadians may have an "A" or "K" ration, but in the SWC apparently everyone just gets "K"s unless they're able to buy, beg, or steal food from local sources (or corpses).

Its not 'standardized' base rations. I imagine there's lots of ways they can make up and serve that kind of gray glop shit in the Guard. Hell they serve it in the navy too (as per the novel Relentless. In hard baked bread bowls in fact, as I recall.) and you can eat that if you're in camp or on a base. In the novel Fifteen hours they have something to that effect on a training base when receiving training (and the rations differed from the agri world I believe) but its not what they would neccesarily eat on the march. We see foil wrapped rations like that in novels like Storm of Iron (Guardsman Hawke had them and subsisted on them when hiking through the mountains.) Hell the various 'war theme' books like the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, Tactica Imperialis, and the 13th Black crusade (and I think the Armageddon one, I have it but I never bothered to write it up because most of that shit is covered in the Armageddon codexes and the epic stuff.) have little sidebars with thse granola bar like things (or look like cookies) that are supposed to be rations. They give them to the troops to carry, they airdrop them i as emergency food supplies to starving citizens, etc.

But the foods (And their sources) are all going ot be different. Not all agri worlds are the same - some may be based on harvesting ocean life and plants (kelp, shirmp, fish, etc.) Others may be gigantic, continent spanning herd farms of various types (grox for example - we saw tht in Bleeding Chalice.) Others may be more 'traditional' agricultural raising grains or something similar which can get processed and made into rations. That fact alone, nevermind what other worlds like civilised and others might refine and serve up on their own - dictates a tremendous variety in what sortrs of foods will constitue rations.

More to the point, the food requirements of the Catahcan (who on the whole tend to be bigger, stronger, and nastier than alot of other guardsmen - see the fourth Cain novel as one example that pops to mind, although I think they were pretty over the top in 'Death World as well') are going to have different nutritional requirements than a more modest (but reasonably proportioned) trooper. All that excess muscle does not come for free.

[Simon_Jester]

My impression is that on the larger scale, the Imperium does try to send appropriate force mixes to a given planet: armor and artillery and this and that. It's only in cases where few regiments are thrown around that you're likely to see real bloopers like tank regiments dropped in a swamp

One thing that tends to annoy me however is how prevalent the "Planet of the Hats" trope applies to the Guard. Every Mordian regiment is a well-drilled machine of Napoleonic soldiers. Every Catcachan regiment is made up of highly independent Rambo wannabes who are supreme in jungle combat. Every Elysian is an elite volunteer paratrooper. Every Pardus trooper is born and bred to fight a mechanized war.

In cases where this is true, it may be because the planetary Guard regiments are drawn from a specific fraction of the overall populace. Elysians who aren't qualified to be paratroops be less likely to leave the planet, instead staying behind as part of the PDF because they couldn't make the cut in the airborne regiments.

[Zinegata]

They are very generalist. The IG is expected to be able to fight (with some degree) in virtually any situation and in any enviroment and in any sort of combat. This can run from city fighting and CQB type conflicts to trench or siege warfare to guerilla warfare and garrison duty. Look at all the different styles of combat the Ghosts get subjected to throughout the series, and they're supposed to be just light infantry and scouts.

You're talking about the Munitorium's expectations and outlook, I'm talking about their actual capability.

What I'm saying is this: Guard regiments are very diverse. Each regiment is a unique tool. There are hammers. There are knives. There are anvils. They come in all shapes and sizes. And many of these tools are very, very specialized and hence cannot be described as "generalist". You can't employ 120,000 conscript light infantry the same way you'd employ 6,000 mech infantry.

However, the Munitorium and most Guard generals just sees them all as hammers, and treats them all as hammers.

Ideally, a scout regiment like the Ghosts should be limited to low-intensity battles wherein stealth is more important than firepower. And some generals do recognize this and employ the Ghosts in such a role, and this apparently makes these rare generals geniuses.

But most others do not recognize this and simply throw them in situations they aren't good at, while other times there's simply no one else available to take their place.

Being able to fight multiple foes competently does not really make you a "generalist" regiment when you do very clearly have a specialization - that just speaks poorly of high command's inability to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of each unit.

The 'specialization' is also meant as a security measure, at least according to Tactica Imperialis. An infantry regiment that rebels can be crushed by a tank regiment, a tank regiment can be crushed by artillery, and an artillery regiment by infantry (sort of a rock-paper-scissors thing I guess.). This is not an absolute though, because many sources (particularily Imperial armour) tend to have regiments fielded in a combined-arms manner (with infantry, armour and artillery all in the same group. The Ghosts novels do this frequently as well.)

I already mentioned this before, but again that's contradicted by how the Munitorium and many generals see regiments as being roughly equal. For instance: Gaunt's Ghosts is a regiment with 6,000 light infantry at peak strength. The Cadogus Mechanized gets 20-30K men, is fully equipped with tanks and armored infantry carriers, and has Sanctioned support. The Cadogus Mech is rightly an independent fighting Corps on its own by modern measures; whereas the Ghosts are a brigade at best. And they are both fighting under the same "command" (Sabbat Worlds).

There's simply no way to treat these two regiments as being "roughly equal", not even from an Administrative perspective. The Cadogus need massively more logistics support than the Ghosts. But that's how the Munitorium treats them, and a lot of generals do as well.

And even with specialities you can still have a particular world raise multiple kinds of regiments. We know in 5th edition the cAtachans have armour regiments as well as the infantry jungle fighters. The Tallarn have tank and infantry and mechanized as well as the rough riders. The Valhallans have infantry and mechanised and armour. Hell even the Krieg have more than just seige regiments (infantry, armour, etc. - vraks made a point of that recall.)

Even Elysians have their armoured forces (Dark Apostle) and may get forced to fight in a more conventional 'footslogger' manner if the situation requires (again Dark Apostle.)

There are, but note how Vraks barely makes any mention of the tank and rough rider regiments? It's dominated by the action of the Siege regiments. They exist, but they barely get a cursory nod in most cases - and most worlds are defined by an "iconic" regiment.

Except we do see significant variances. Cadians for example can field infantry, armour, mechanized, artillery and other regiments types, and may even mix and match them within a signle regiment (the CAdian 8th is a prime example of a 'mixed' type force.. it has mechanized, armour, artillery, etc.) You're ascribing a far greater standard of specialization to the Guard than actually exists. They aren't the tau. They go about things in a much more haphazard manner and only WISH they could be as organized/mind controlling as the tau (or at least, thats what the Administratum/munitorum wish they could.)

I'm not simply talking about there being infantry, armour, and mech in one regiment. I'm talking about how they all seem to be cookie-cutter soldiers out of the same mold.

For instance, the Cadian 8th... how many of them are from the same Kasr? How many of them are home town buddies? Did they all go through basic together? Shouldn't there be friction and rivalries between folks from different towns? It's all very contrived to make them all "RAR! We're Cadians! We can field strip a lasgun before we can walk!".

[Zinegata]

My impression is that on the larger scale, the Imperium does try to send appropriate force mixes to a given planet: armor and artillery and this and that. It's only in cases where few regiments are thrown around that you're likely to see real bloopers like tank regiments dropped in a swamp

"Try" is the operative word; when it should in fact be standard practice and there should be a concerted effort to smack generals and logisticians who ignore the strengths and weaknesses of the regiments under their command. That's simply basic strategy.

But that's the Imperum for you: Because the warp may sometimes muck up your resupply schedule, people decide to forget basic strategy altogether and decide that the rule of thumb is "all regiments are more or less equal", despite the glaring outliers (a unit of 120K men cannot be treated the same as one of 6,000).

In cases where this is true, it may be because the planetary Guard regiments are drawn from a specific fraction of the overall populace. Elysians who aren't qualified to be paratroops be less likely to leave the planet, instead staying behind as part of the PDF because they couldn't make the cut in the airborne regiments.

[/quote]

Even with all-volunteer forces however, you'll still see specific clans/groups form up. Recall how the "Philadelphia" boys in Easy Company quickly befriended each other in Band of Brothers. It's just a peeve that annoys me.

[Connor MacLeod]

What I'm saying is this: Guard regiments are very diverse. Each regiment is a unique tool. There are hammers. There are knives. There are anvils. They come in all shapes and sizes. And many of these tools are very, very specialized and hence cannot be described as "generalist".

Except.. I named cases where they can't. You claimed that all Catachans were jungle fighters, when we KNOW there are Catachan armoured forces. It's mentioned in the 5th edition rules AND the IG Codex. And there was the Elysian Example from Dark Apostle, but we also know Elysians work well in zero gee ops as well as being 'drop troops'.

More to the point.. Tactica Imperialis, page 57:

By now, attentive students will have noted a major divergence between a planet-bound defence force and an Imperial Guard Regiment. A PDF unit will be one amongst hundreds, each a standing member of a force expected only to fight in a single, well-defined locale, and able to count upon the aid of its fellows at short notice. The lines of communication will be short, and sources of replacement of casualties nearby and plentiful.

Not so with a Regiment of the Imperial Guard. A Regiment might be expected to operate entirely independently, light years from aid, or it may be fielded as but one element in a vast army. Its deployment is never predictable, and so it must prepare for all eventualities and be equipped to deal with many foes.

A regiment may have a primary specialty it is best at, but it cannot be expected to do just that and nothing else whatsowever. And a number of examples where this is precisely the case have been noted. Whether or not they get the equipment and training to successfully pull that off is another matter, but that is also beside the point whatever you seem to think.

You can't employ 120,000 conscript light infantry the same way you'd employ 6,000 mech infantry.

In every way? No, you can't, but you can make them mobile by sticking them in cheap transport, or using some munitorum haulers (for other supplies and such) adapted for that role - its not like they don't make in field adaptations or modifications as the situation permits. And you get a more mobile force. And you equip them with anti tank options and they can at least threaten an opposing armoured force (although not as wlel as actual armoured forces.) How is that HIGHLY SPECIALIZED as you claim again?

"Highly specialized" is how the Tau or Eldar fight. Not how the Imperium fights. AT least, nto how the 'modern' Imperium fights.

However, the Munitorium and most Guard generals just sees them all as hammers, and treats them all as hammers.

I don't see how you can generalize about how the generals, since there's bound to be thousands of Lord Militant alone, envermind invididual generals within specific regions and such.

Ideally, a scout regiment like the Ghosts should be limited to low-intensity battles wherein stealth is more important than firepower. And some generals do recognize this and employ the Ghosts in such a role, and this apparently makes these rare generals geniuses.

But most others do not recognize this and simply throw them in situations they aren't good at, while other times there's simply no one else available to take their place.

And how does this disprove my point, exactly? We've seen them thrown up against infantry. Against tanks. Against a variety of targets really. They've done drop assaults (had to be trained to that in Guns of Tanith as I recall) they've done the trench and siege crap (several times in fact), they've done mechanised when they get assigned vehicles (Honour Guard.) They fight in the role they are best at and they fight as standard infantry. Hell they even acquire other specailizations when they get folded in with other regiments (or recruit the Verghats volunteers.. that considerable variety to their capabilities.)

Being able to fight multiple foes competently does not really make you a "generalist" regiment when you do very clearly have a specialization - that just speaks poorly of high command's inability to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of each unit.

You do realize that at least some regiments receive further training along the line, don't you? Different enviorments, etc. It's covered in IA11 and its one example of how they treat garrison and related forces.

I already mentioned this before, but again that's contradicted by how the Munitorium and many generals see regiments as being roughly equal. For instance: Gaunt's Ghosts is a regiment with 6,000 light infantry at peak strength. The Cadogus Mechanized gets 20-30K men, is fully equipped with tanks and armored infantry carriers, and has Sanctioned support. The Cadogus Mech is rightly an independent fighting Corps on its own by modern measures; whereas the Ghosts are a brigade at best. And they are both fighting under the same "command" (Sabbat Worlds).

There's simply no way to treat these two regiments as being "roughly equal", not even from an Administrative perspective. The Cadogus need massively more logistics support than the Ghosts. But that's how the Munitorium treats them, and a lot of generals do as well.

They cover this in the IG Codex. Its a 'gross simplification' for the handling of troops and equipment at the highest scales. Literally they say 'amass this many regiments' and then throw them in the general direction of the enemy, When you have hundreds of thousands of worlds in a single Segmentum to deal with its unlikely you can acquire any greater degree of precision.

Things at the level of, say, a sector or subsector are going to be handled much more diffrently, since you're 'only' dealing with scores or hundreds of worlds.

Besides which they rarely handle the long term logistics at the starting point. If they are being amassed for an invasion or a crusade, the logistics are worked out at the destination point. If they're being amassed to defend a particular world, then that world is expected to be able to meet the logistical requirements of the forces as needed. If the situation requires it, they may pull in resources from adjacent worlds if it can be arranged. It's not exactly as if they can throw this all together at the point of origin, plan out every little detail, and then send it all on its way with the expectaiton that everything will work out 'just as planned' - only the Tau can do that.

There are, but note how Vraks barely makes any mention of the tank and rough rider regiments? It's dominated by the action of the Siege regiments. They exist, but they barely get a cursory nod in most cases - and most worlds are defined by an "iconic" regiment.

They were explicitly mentioned in a supporting role. How the hell does that change the fact other groups than the 'siege regiments' exist. Hell we know there are other kinds of Krieg regiments. There was a Krieg force vastly different from the Meat Droids in Warriors of Ultramar and af ew other sources (they even had names and personalities!) and there have been Krieg descended regiments like the Baran siegemasters - its unliekyl that the meat droids even know how ot fuck, much less would be allowed to settle a new world (They're too obsessed with DYING IN BATTLE.)

I'm not simply talking about there being infantry, armour, and mech in one regiment. I'm talking about how they all seem to be cookie-cutter soldiers out of the same mold.

For instance, the Cadian 8th... how many of them are from the same Kasr? How many of them are home town buddies? Did they all go through basic together? Shouldn't there be friction and rivalries between folks from different towns? It's all very contrived to make them all "RAR! We're Cadians! We can field strip a lasgun before we can walk!".

So your entire argument is based on taking the rather blatant propoganda literally? Are you going to tell me next you seriously believe the Imperium really does have nigh-limitless manpower resources? Have they suddenyl turned aroudn and started cloning people and I wasn't aware? Or was there some event where every imperial galaxy spontaneously grew a war-torn battlezone every night just because THERE IS ONLY WAR! and all the needed food, weapons, equipment and such are provided by the Logistics Fairies?

[Zinegata]

Connor->

*sigh* I have two seperate arguments that you keep mixing up.

I will now restate them because to try and clarify things, and maybe you'll cool your head in the meantime:

1) The Guard is NOT a "generalist" army. Not at the strategic level, and certainly not at the regimental level.

Let's start at the regimental level, you have already pointed out that Guard regiments are specialized to a degree so they can't revolt wholesale. There are exceptions, but tank regiments are mostly PURE tank regiments, and infantry regiments likewise. In fact it's stated that the tanks from a tank regiment are parcelled out to infantry regiments to support them.

In fact, most battles where the Ghosts won in a heavy fight involved attached tank support from other regiments. Examples: Pardus Tankers in Honour Guard. Life Guard Tankers in Sabbat Martyr. They couldn't have won any of those fights without tank support, so citing the Ghosts as a "generalist" regiment is silly. They had help in the city fights from other regiments, that's why they won.

Exceptions exist with all-arms regiments (i.e. Cadogus 52nd - with tanks, mech, and Sanctioned), but again exceptions exist all over the place in 40K that the "Exceptions exist!" argument is all but useless.

So again, the facts: IG regiments are by and large SPECIALIZED. As stated in the 5th Ed Codex, to prevent combined-arms revolt. As shown in the Gaunt novels, where they ALWAYS draw armoured support from a DIFFERENT regiment. If the Ghosts were meant to always take on a "general" threat, then they should have tanks in their TO&E already.

The Tactica Imperialis may say "they have to be able to operate on their own", but that's not incompatible with being specialized. Being capable of independent action is NOT synonymous with being generalist.

Just because a "Scout" regiment can fight in a city doesn't change the fact that it ultimately a scout regiment. It is BETTER at scouting than any other role. Just because a tank can fight and win in a city without infantry support, doesn't mean that you should make a habit out of it.

=====

At the strategic level, it's a bit different. Just because many generals and the Munitorium are idiots who can't tell a hammer from a screwdriver doesn't change that the Imperial Guard ultimately fights as a combination of many diverse and highly specialized forces. They are able to take on multiple threats NOT because the army as a whole are generalists, but because it has component parts capable of fighting specific things very well, and put together they're unstoppable.

Put it this way in the real-life gaming scene. When you are fighting a 'nid army, you're expecting to fight a "human wave" enemy. But when you're fighting a Guard army - people often have no idea what to expect. They may end up fighting a human wave army, a gunline army, a mech army, an airborne army, a tank army, or an artillery army. And if they fight the "wrong" kind of Guard army, then they're screwed.

In short, the primary quality of the IG at the strategic level is its diversity, which is again different from being "generalist". If you deploy the right mix against the right opponents, you'll win. But if you deploy the wrong mix, you'll lose. That's different from "generalist", which means you're kinda good at everything but not great at anything no matter the situation.

Context matters for the Guard more importantly than any other army; the Orks and 'nids can fall back on unlimited numbers. The Eldar on mobility. The Guard have to make do with whatever they have on hand at a particular moment, and if it involves tanks in swamps then they're screwed.

Which is also why I'm railing at this idiocy over how 120,000 men is the equivalent of 6,000. Even from an administrative purpose this is retarded. They have different transport and supply requirements. An Army is not a Brigade.

And the Guard ultimately wins or dies based on what kind of regiments are sent where.

=========

2) My other argument is this: It annoys me that the Guard have cookie-cutter soldiers in terms of background. Even in the Gaunt's novels, pretty much everyone from Tanith is a Sacra-drinking guy who remembers the trees. There are no geographical rivalries among the Tanith themselves, only "gang" rivalries (i.e. Corbec vs Rawne).

It's a peeve about cliche'd writing, it has nothing to do with Guard regiments not having tanks.

[Gunhead]

I agree with Zinegata. He is pretty much on the money with his toolbox analogy of the IG.

Speaking of this odd separation of different service branches, my question is this: Is it really worth it and does it even work?
Does it prevent revolts to the extent it's justifiable to have exceedingly poor integration between different service branches built into the organization, on top of which you get all the problems you have when slapping together troops from different backgrounds and or levels of training etc? To me it seems like they are just hampering their armies with paranoia and while it might be seen as another example of GRIMDARK, doesn't really make it any less stupid.

-Gunhead

[Zinegata]

It depends.

On one hand, it's useful to have troops trained for one specialized role. The Pardus tankers in Honour Guard for instance all seem to be professionals who underwent training in a dedicated tank school, and they demonstrate their skill by taking on over a hundred enemy tanks (including a Baneblade Superheavy) with only 20+ of their own tanks and won. Similarly, the Ghosts are a superb scouting regiment because they actively encourage the practice of stealth and marksmanship within their own ranks - to the point that they even create a core elite cadre of scouts (led by Mkoll, the Chief Scout). This kind of focus is hard to achieve with a unit that is following just "standard" or "generalist" training. That's why you have a seperate tank school and infantry warfare school in real life.

On the flip side, Honour Guard also shows what happens when you don't have regiments cross-training with each other. The Ghosts for the most part (even the lead scout Mkoll) have very little idea how tank regiments work, and are constantly surprised by the Pardus tankers.

For instance, when a mixed Pardus/Ghost force encounters a minefield, the Mkoll halts the column and calls for an engineering squad to clear the mines one by one. The Pardus tankers by contrast simply deploy a bulldozer-equipped tank and detonate a path through the minefield, a much faster process. Likewise, Mkoll initially gets alarmed when one of the Pardus tanks goes missing, only to realize later that it was a Tank Destroyer that had gone into a camouflaged position to provide overwatch - a basic part of their doctrine.

Ultimately, the Ghosts and Pardus manage to work well together (helped by the fact both are highly professional regiments), but it could have easily turned sour. What if a Pardus tanker makes a mistake and inflicts friendly fire casualties on the Ghosts? What if the Ghosts mistakenly lead the Pardus into an ambush? It could have easily turned into an acrimonious mess, and the Ghosts have much poorer relations with many other units (i.e. Royal Volpones).

In the real world, there are plenty of inter-service rivalries and this is generally frowned upon in favor of having everyone work together as part of one cohesive team. But the real world doesn't have to deal with the threat of sudden rebellions and Chaos corruption (not to mention the institutional memory of betrayal), so it's hard to say how much these seperations are justified security measures, or the Imperium simply being grimdark idiots.

[Connor MacLeod]

Fine I'm dropping the point. For now at least.

[Sea Skimmer]

That's probably all secondary though. I suspect the primarry purpose of the depot worlds, aside from being a dumping ground for overproduction (I tend to think they produce more military shit than they actually use, although I can't prove it) due to their 'siege mentality', but also as a place to draw resources from if they have to supply large numbers of suddenly-raised troops (conscrpits, etc.) as well as feed them. Some regiments may not be equipped with all the vehicles and equipment they need to carry out their roles and so sometimes stop off at forge worlds to acquire it. The depot worlds may be the alternate place (to pick up tanks or artillery or such.) Or if a infantry force needs ground transportation for some reason for a given conflict (or other supplies) they may stop off en route to the warp and pick up what they need.

Still doesn't make any real sense to have a depot with so many complete weapons on a remote world, instead of storing them at main bases, or at places you can actually get conscripts from like a major population center. Prepositioned equipment only makes sense in limited circumstances, and at least this world doesn't seem to meet any of them. If the stuff was parked in orbit on ships protected under the guns of the fortress it'd make a lot more sense. Stocking just ammo and supplies, well that'd be more logical but still, not really. Seems to me like the concept was surely a contradiction stemming from nobody ever sitting down and trying to reconcile the way expeditionary warfare via warp shipping would really work out, but whatever. Worse problems exist.

[Connor MacLeod]

Still doesn't make any real sense to have a depot with so many complete weapons on a remote world, instead of storing them at main bases, or at places you can actually get conscripts from like a major population center. Prepositioned equipment only makes sense in limited circumstances, and at least this world doesn't seem to meet any of them. If the stuff was parked in orbit on ships protected under the guns of the fortress it'd make a lot more sense. Stocking just ammo and supplies, well that'd be more logical but still, not really. Seems to me like the concept was surely a contradiction stemming from nobody ever sitting down and trying to reconcile the way expeditionary warfare via warp shipping would really work out, but whatever. Worse problems exist.

Well I'm not sure how remote Vraks is from the rest of the galaxy. I'll have to go back and look, If it is remote than that's probably Imperial armour crap again, cuz the Munitorum manual has the depots being as part of the main 'headquarters' for a given scale (Segmentum in the munitorum's caes IIRC.) WE know there are segmentum, sector and probably even subsector naval reserves, so it stands to reason there are probably stockpiles for headquarters at each of those levels (there usually is some sort of 'headquarters' for every military, administrative and such organization in the Imperium at each level, at least.)

so is it just the idea (which VRaks does imply, I'll note) that one world is the stockpile/depot for the entire region, or is it the idea that they stockpile on any worlds at all that's the problem? I want to be clear on this.

[Zinegata]

Skimmer is pointing out that stocks of complete weapons systems should only be available near major bases (with actual soldiers who can use them), or recruitment centers (where you can recruit soldiers who can use them). Not in the middle of nowhere with minimal caretaker crews to defend them.

Otherwise you're just opening yourself to having your tanks stolen enmasse. If they're stored at an active base or recruitment center you can at least have soldiers on hand ready to man the tanks in case of attack. When it's in a relatively remote location like Vraks, you get exactly what happened - which is that a mob essentially overruns the token defenders and gives themselves an enormous windfall in usable military hardware. It wouldn't be so bad if it was just ammunition (can't immediately use them without the guns), or if it's just tank components (you still need a factory to put the tanks together) - but storing completed weapon systems far from the hands of those who are supposed to use it is just a terrible idea.

In real life pre-positioned gear (with minimal actual troops around them; only caretaker crews) such as those seen under the old Cold War REFORGER / POMCUS program only really made sense because of political concerns (i.e. Host countries wanting only a limited number of US troops in-country; or the US not wanting to deploy so many troops overseas, etc), none of which should really apply to an autocratic setup like the Imperium, which doesn't really care about NIMBY concerns of the locals and where manpower generally far exceeds the material stocks to equip the soldiers anyway (POMCUS are for the material-rich, and manpower-short).

[Sea Skimmer]

The key thing with US prepositioned equipment is, we can fly out personal much more quickly, using civilian transport planes, than we can move heavy equipment by sea. That justified the POMCUS sets nicely. The prepositioned gear in the Pacific and Indian oceans is kept loaded on ships, so it can move out rapidly to link up with air delivered men.

In 40K interseller warfare this is not true and you need heavy transport shipping either way to move all that equipment to other planetary battlefield. Everything moves more or less the same speed, it might as well come from the same place. If this depot was only ever intended for defending Vraks it makes more sense, then personal might be moved in by smaller civilian craft and maybe this is in fact an advantage. Meanwhile keeping equipment centrally is better for manning, better for anti coup reasons, better for strategic mobility and much safer against surprise attacks.

If warp travel is really a big problem, this would make separating equipment and men and relying on long distance linkups a very uncertain method of waging war. What good would it do you to ship men to meet weapons and the warp makes one force have to wait 50 years for the other to appear?

[Simon_Jester]

Random bullshit idea:

Vraks might be located in a relatively accessible bit of space that is deemed unlikely to be cut off by warp storms.

Also, it's relatively close in warp-drive terms to the Imperium's single biggest ongoing theater of war: it might be serving as a transshipment point for cargoes coming in from halfway across the galaxy, as a storehouse that is "only" a thousand light years or so from the Cadian Gate.