Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

[Alkaloid]

Its a retarded way to fight, sure, but the Imperium doesn't really need to fight better. Could it have been better organised, planned and carried out? Sure, and it often is, but at the end of the day for the Imperium this is nothing. It barely rates more than the loss of a single section would to the US Army because it turns out someone accidentally promoted an idiot. Yeah, it sucks to be the people that suffer for it, but institutionally the Imperium just rolls the fuck on, another day at the office, casualties likely didn't even rise beyond standard deviations.

As for Imperial Armour, yeah, they suck at writing anything that resembles a proper fight, but thematically they nailed it here. For most people WW1 was simply a whole bunch of unfortunate bastards covered in mud dying in droves in an absolutely pointless fashion because of the incompetence of aristocrats. We get that here. Yes, its not an accurate reflection of the way the war unfolded, if it was there would be more than one front, no tanks at all to begin with and actual battles between ships, but it was never meant to be that, its just meant to capture that one aspect of WW1 that everyone knows about. It's GW, its marketed to kids, not historians.

[Connor MacLeod]

Its a retarded way to fight, sure, but the Imperium doesn't really need to fight better. Could it have been better organised, planned and carried out? Sure, and it often is, but at the end of the day for the Imperium this is nothing. It barely rates more than the loss of a single section would to the US Army because it turns out someone accidentally promoted an idiot. Yeah, it sucks to be the people that suffer for it, but institutionally the Imperium just rolls the fuck on, another day at the office, casualties likely didn't even rise beyond standard deviations.

Okay. Take siege of vraks. replace the rebels with the Orks. Or Tyranids. Or Necrons of equal numbers. Is that really going to work better? Or are the Imperium going to get slaughtered in short order and lose the planet?

And some organizations may not care, but others will (depends on whose responsibility it is, whose powerbase it influences, etc.) Politics, politics politics. IT may not matter to someone halfway across the galaxy or on terra, but losing a depot world within the sector can have unpleasant consequences in the long term. Especially so close to the Eye of Terror.

As for Imperial Armour, yeah, they suck at writing anything that resembles a proper fight, but thematically they nailed it here. For most people WW1 was simply a whole bunch of unfortunate bastards covered in mud dying in droves in an absolutely pointless fashion because of the incompetence of aristocrats. We get that here. Yes, its not an accurate reflection of the way the war unfolded, if it was there would be more than one front, no tanks at all to begin with and actual battles between ships, but it was never meant to be that, its just meant to capture that one aspect of WW1 that everyone knows about. It's GW, its marketed to kids, not historians.

It's not even accurate to how 40K depicts war. Cite me a source or a codex where SOP is to be hauling your forces to fight a battle from tens of thousands of light years away (and have your supply line act across that distance, nevermind the reinforcements) RIGHT OFF THE BAT. Cite me a source where they completely ignore any and all naval support: orbital surveillance and bombardment, starfighters, etc. Cite me a source where they consider it okay to throw away huge numbers of tanks, superheavies, artillery, ammunition, equipment, etc. the same way they throw off life, and why they decide to wait 12 years to take the planet back when that gives the enemy time to plunder those valuable stocks and expend them (which they quite obviously wanted back.) Moreover it runs contrary to their fears that leaving Vraks in Chaos control would give Chaos forces in the Eye of Terror a place to launch further attacks from.

I mean fuck, the D-Koks are being outperformed by fucking low tier chaos cultists with looted autoguns and improvised armour. It's contrived.

[Zinegata]

I think part of the problem with the planetary invasion scenarios they come up with now is that a while ago, someone at GW was writing and actually realised that you need something to stop one side having orbital superiority and just blowing the crap out of any enemy forces on the ground.

Unfortunately, the writers seem to forget this sometimes. The 13th Black Crusade for instance had the Chaos forces "winning" because they took over huge sections of Cadia... but they completely lost orbital supremacy in the process so that they don't simply spill out of the Gate and march on Terra.

A strict military assessment of the situation, however, would reveal that the only "victory" Failbaddon managed to achieve was to get all of his forces trapped on a planet where they would be little more than target practice for the Imperial Navy.

They normally do it two ways, either there is something valuable on the planet that they don't want to risk destroying, or they have heavily fortified cities that have void shields and defence lasers and the defensive fleet is actually supported by them.

Necropolis was actually one of the few times we see a city-wide void shield in action. It basically takes the brunt of a massive ground artillery bombardment (from a millions-strong army) without fail for weeks. So we know void shields can take a lot of hits, it's just that we very rarely see them in action.

[Alkaloid]

It's not even accurate to how 40K depicts war. Cite me a source or a codex where SOP is to be hauling your forces to fight a battle from tens of thousands of light years away (and have your supply line act across that distance, nevermind the reinforcements) RIGHT OFF THE BAT. Cite me a source where they completely ignore any and all naval support: orbital surveillance and bombardment, starfighters, etc. Cite me a source where they consider it okay to throw away huge numbers of tanks, superheavies, artillery, ammunition, equipment, etc. the same way they throw off life, and why they decide to wait 12 years to take the planet back when that gives the enemy time to plunder those valuable stocks and expend them (which they quite obviously wanted back.) Moreover it runs contrary to their fears that leaving Vraks in Chaos control would give Chaos forces in the Eye of Terror a place to launch further attacks from.

I mean fuck, the D-Koks are being outperformed by fucking low tier chaos cultists with looted autoguns and improvised armour. It's contrived.

I'm not arguing, it isn't the way they operate normally, it is contrived. But thematically they got what the were going for, which was the popular depiction of the first world war. They had to build something stupidly contrived to get it, sure, but you can't say they didn't capture the feel they were after, and as bullshit as the scenario is, it's not inconceivable that these things could happen within the imperium from time to time simply because its so big they are hard to notice. Frankly this isn't the stupidest Imperial Armour gets either, that's the eldar jetbike human wave diversionary planetwide invasion against superheavy tank regiments.

[Bladed_Crescent]

Unfortunately, the writers seem to forget this sometimes. The 13th Black Crusade for instance had the Chaos forces "winning" because they took over huge sections of Cadia... but they completely lost orbital supremacy in the process so that they don't simply spill out of the Gate and march on Terra.

A strict military assessment of the situation, however, would reveal that the only "victory" Failbaddon managed to achieve was to get all of his forces trapped on a planet where they would be little more than target practice for the Imperial Navy.

As far as the 13th Crusade goes... there's a story in that.

Stop me if you've heard this...

It was supposed to be player-decided; i.e. the results of 40k and Battlefleet Gothic battles worldwide were to determine the success of the Black Crusade. Armies were split into Order and Disorder factions. All things being equal, you'd expect a resolution in which no side had a clear advantage.

Well, GW had to make sure they got that result.

From Day One, the Disorder forces coordinated their efforts world-wide, using forums, mailing lists, etc to target vital areas and assign all their victories to specific sub-sectors, planets and systems, whereas the Order forces were basically scattershot. Plus, winning games that you play in GW stores gave the victor a chance to earn Event Cards, which you could use to devastating effect on the war effort. Again, the Order armies played them as they got them. Disorder forces consulted with their allies to find out where they could use their cards best. The finest examples were where an Inquisitorial planet was holding out against Disorder - the Planet Killer was played on it, and the world was destroyed. Likewise, another Imperial holdout - a prison planet - was targeted for an 'Uprising' kind of event and the world fell to Chaos.

The only event card Order played with any real effectiveness was to cripple the Planet Killer and take it out of the campaign to prevent future... planet killings.

It went on like this, with Disorder basically steamrolling Order at every turn. About halfway through the campaign, the Order forces tried to replicate Disorder's unity... which then almost immediately fell to infighting and bickering over who got to be in charge. GW employees finally had to step in to set up an Order hierarchy (and give Order forces a little 'boost' in effectiveness), but it was too little too late. GW then "massaged" the results to be more in line with what they were expecting/wanted, leading to the stalemate.

So that's the out-of-universe explanation for the tepid success of the 13th Black Crusade. Narratively, it's not as bleak as you portray it. Heck, the campaign closed with the surviving Blackstone and a massive Chaos fleet duking it out above Cadia with Eldar and Imperial forces - I'm not sure I'd call that losing orbital supremacy.

Note: the following assumes there hasn't been any changes to this fluff since the campaign ended, since I'm out of date on any changes that might have been made.

I have the wrap-up for the 13th Black Crusade in a stack of White Dwarves; something like two dozen Imperial-held systems were now completely under Chaos control and the loyalist forces on Cadia were pushed back to a single small island continent, meaning that "Failbaddon" succeeded (even in the fluff they say this outright). The forces of Chaos not only broke through the Cadian Gate, but they've taken multiple systems from the Imperium and even broken the fabled fortress world of Cadia. There was a bit of a retcon to say that that was Abaddon's goal for the 13th and I think that was to prevent all the Disorder players from flying to Nottingham with pitchforks and torches.

So, out-of-universe, GW had to fudge their own numbers in order to prevent a crushing Chaos victory.

In-universe, the 13th Black Crusade succeeded in precisely what it intended to do: breach the Eye and gain a foothold in the Imperium.

Sorry for the diatribe, the 13th Black Crusade is a pet peeve of mine.

[Zinegata]

The problem is that while Chaos won the ground war on Cadia, they lost the space war. That massive fleet battle you talked about as the cliffhanger? GW wrote an actual resolution for it - and the Imperium won decisively.

So it's now explicitly stated that the Chaos troops down in Cadia are cut off.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/13th_Black_Crusade

While the ground is largely controlled by the forces of Chaos, the skies above Cadia are almost entirely ruled by Admiral Quarren and the entire Battle Fleet Groups: Gothic and Solar and elements of several chapters of Space Marines, leaving the results open as the battle rages on. Having both space and air superiority gives a significant advantage to the Imperial forces, allowing the deployment of fresh troops and the bombardment of Abaddon's army.

So, yeah, the Chaos Warbands are glaring at Failbaddon right now for stranding them in a world where they're basically target practice for the Imperial Navy. Winning on the ground doesn't really matter a lot when you lose orbital supremacy; you're essentially just handing your enemy a giant P.O.W. camp .

[Simon_Jester]

Its a retarded way to fight, sure, but the Imperium doesn't really need to fight better.

If they didn't fight so badly and stupidly against their little opponents, they'd have more strength to use against big opponents, and use it more efficiently, and possibly conquer the galaxy and not have to worry about all the crap that they have to deal with.

[madd0ct0r]

Zinegata: at least post the whole thing:

However, the rituals of Erebus of the Word Bearers reached their peak shortly after the arrival of Space Marine reinforcements. Through the sacrifice of a million innocents, the entire region around the Eye of Terror was attacked by Warp storm so intense that inter-system travel was rendered impossible and cutting the warzone off from further Imperial reinforcements. Taking advantage of this, Typhus would unleash the full strength of the Death Guard upon the Agripinaa Sector, which now was reduced to ruins.9 The most chilling development for the Imperium however was the slow encroachment of Planet Killer upon Cadia itself as the war entered its final stages.8 The Imperium's problems were further compounded by xenos forces, even at this late stage in the war. A Tyranid splinter Hive Fleet of Leviathan began to encorach on Segmentum Obscurus and assault Belis Corona while warbands of Orks ravaged the Scarus Sector in what became known as the Green Krusade.9

By the closing years of M41, Cadia still remained in Imperial hands. However the world stood alone and was under siege from vast Chaos forces, its moons reduced to barren wastelands and the Villklas and Andur defensive lines overrun. The Cadian High Command was forced to relocate to the far side of the planet as Imperial forces took up positions around Kasr Gallan, awaiting the final push by the Forces of Chaos. The other vital front in the war, the Agripinaa Sector, still remained in Imperial hands but was still under massive attack from Chaos forces and its populace risked starvation with the loss of Agri Worlds such as Yayor, Ulthor, and Dentor. The Imperial Navy sought to rectify this by fighting to hold space lanes around the Cadian Gate in actions that would have Admiral Quarren hailed a hero. The Dark Angels meanwhile continued to wage a spirited defense of the ruins of their ancient homeworld of Caliban, and were even rumored to have captured the elusive Voice of the Emperor.10

I also remember, but can't find anywhere, that after the campaign when imperials were claiming vicotiry due to space control one of the GW bigwigs stated the Abbadon simply opened warp portals on Cadia itself, allowing direct land reinforcements.

[Zinegata]

The rest of it doesn't really contradict the fact that while Chaos won the ground war, they lost the space war. They say stuff about Erebus' warp storms blocking all travel, yet in the very next paragraph the Imperial Navy is keeping supply lines open and maintaining orbital supremacy over Cadia, meaning that Warp Storm either wasn't as awful as it was claimed or it blew itself away.

Hence, despite GW trying to muddle the issue, it's clear that the Imperial Navy has achieved orbital and air superiority over Cadia.

Opening warp portals into Cadia itself doesn't help much though. Again: They're trapped on the ground. Having a portal to a Daemon world means they can escape, but they can't actually continue the invasion to anywhere else. In fact, staying in Cadia just opens them up to getting bombed from orbit by the Imperial Navy.

It's really an example of poorly thought out "conclusion" because they ignore the implications of losing the space war.

[Simon_Jester]

Doesn't this depend on whether the Chaosians on the surface have effective surface-to-space weapons?

[Gunhead]

Doesn't this depend on whether the Chaosians on the surface have effective surface-to-space weapons?

I guess. But wouldn't these have to captured from Cadians? Do they still have portable surface-to-space weapons? Finally, what is the effectiveness of such weapons against a massed fleet in the orbit, I mean can purely ground based weapons chase of a huge fleet?

-Gunhead

[Zinegata]

Doesn't this depend on whether the Chaosians on the surface have effective surface-to-space weapons?

It depends. Most surface to space weapons in 40K are massive stationary emplacements (i.e. Missile Silos in Storm of Iron), but we've also seen Chaos forces deploy massive land-based tracked aircraft carriers (in Double Eagle) so it's not impossible for them to lug around a massive space cannon. Plus, Titans also technically have capital ship weaponry.

Based on the fluff the Chaos forces seemed to capture some of the orbital defenses, but it's not enough to prevent the Imperials from maintaining orbital superiority.

I suppose it'd be possible for the Chaos forces to build up space-to-ground defenses from scratch (using slave labor for instance), but again - what would be the point? That'd be like the Japanese Navy adding more and more fixed gun emplacements in Rabaul in WW2 when it was already bypassed to "wither on the vine" - Those guns simply that wouldn't do anything except watch the American ships ignore it entirely as they maintained control over the sea lanes.

The only possible gain for capturing Cadia is that it's apparently the home of some kind of mysterious alien monoliths (from the Eisenhorn novels) which could turn out to be some kind of Chaos superweapon. But given that nobody has actually figured out how to use them - except for a rogue Inquisitor who is killed by Eisenhorn - it's a bit of a long shot.

[Zinegata]

Doesn't this depend on whether the Chaosians on the surface have effective surface-to-space weapons?

I guess. But wouldn't these have to captured from Cadians? Do they still have portable surface-to-space weapons? Finally, what is the effectiveness of such weapons against a massed fleet in the orbit, I mean can purely ground based weapons chase of a huge fleet?

-Gunhead

Know No Fear shows that fixed orbital defenses can certainly have enough firepower to decimate a fleet, but a fleet can still operate outside the range of the said defenses and maintain a cordon/blockade. Heck, the Calth grid was so powerful it was used to make the system's sun go nova after wiping out 80% of the Ultramarine fleet and annihilating every other inhabited planet in the system.

On Cadia though... Every indication shows that the Chaos surface-to-space defenses are so weak that they can't even stop resupply ships from dropping reinforcements to the Imperials from orbit, much less chase off two entire Battlefleets.

[Gunhead]

I'm not arguing, it isn't the way they operate normally, it is contrived. But thematically they got what the were going for, which was the popular depiction of the first world war. They had to build something stupidly contrived to get it, sure, but you can't say they didn't capture the feel they were after, and as bullshit as the scenario is, it's not inconceivable that these things could happen within the imperium from time to time simply because its so big they are hard to notice. Frankly this isn't the stupidest Imperial Armour gets either, that's the eldar jetbike human wave diversionary planetwide invasion against superheavy tank regiments.

Except like I said before, they didn't get it right even thematically as there was no pre-existing condition forcing the Kriegers to do human wave WWI style. Nor did the authors even attempt to create such conditions. Krieg had everything on hand to not do it this way and still they did. I will add however that my perception of what is thematically appropriate is very likely different from yours. The similarities with Vraks and WWI are superficial at best and once you scratch the surface somewhat the similarities disappear.

Zinegata: Okay, thanks. That's about what I had figured.

-Gunhead

[Alkaloid]

They weren't looking to have world war 1 in space, they were looking to have what to most people would look like world war 1 in space. Take all the bad elements you can think of, mud, death, trenches, soldiers walking stoically into machine gun and artillery fire. These things all happened in WW1 and in the way they depicted Vraks, the difference is that in WW1 the context meant they had reasons to happen, granted, rarely good reasons, but they weren't arbitrary plans come up with by idiots who hated humanity. The popular perception of WW1 generals though is that they were stupid and could not come up with any plan that wasn't walk until can't, dig. That's widespread. People like you me and Skimmer know it wasn't really true, but 90% of people who buy an IA book are going to see it exactly like WW1, because the theme wasn't WW1, it was the popular perception of WW1.

[Gunhead]

They weren't looking to have world war 1 in space, they were looking to have what to most people would look like world war 1 in space. Take all the bad elements you can think of, mud, death, trenches, soldiers walking stoically into machine gun and artillery fire. These things all happened in WW1 and in the way they depicted Vraks, the difference is that in WW1 the context meant they had reasons to happen, granted, rarely good reasons, but they weren't arbitrary plans come up with by idiots who hated humanity. The popular perception of WW1 generals though is that they were stupid and could not come up with any plan that wasn't walk until can't, dig. That's widespread. People like you me and Skimmer know it wasn't really true, but 90% of people who buy an IA book are going to see it exactly like WW1, because the theme wasn't WW1, it was the popular perception of WW1.

Basically I agree. This is in fact just a difference of opinion on what you, me or someone else might view as thematically appropriate. Just shows how authors are just going over the fence where it's lowest.

-Gunhead

[Connor MacLeod]

Just looking over things as well.
Page 11

The loss of Vraks could not be allowed to stand unopposed. Whilst a small world of just eight million souls was of little consequence when compared to the great crusades and the Tyrannic Wars now raging on the Eastern Fringes, it was Vraks' strategic position in the Departmento's logistical chain that made its loss so important. Who knew what future damage would be caused if Imperial Guard regiment sin the Scarus sector, and further afield, found themselves running short on the munitions and equipment they need to fight their own battles.
...
The fall of Vraks was a significant loss to the Imperium's defences around the Eye of Terror. Surely, the Dark Powers would seize this opportunity to stirke against other worlds in the Scarus sector. And if they should succeed, and more worlds fell, then wouldn't more heretic forces gather....
...
Ten years from now perhaps te loss of Vraks might be the spark that ignited a new Black Crusade. The High Master of the Departmento Munitorum could not take this chance. Vraks must be retaken, at any cost.

Okay, first off, Vraks is NOT trivial. small world, but its position and resources are vitally important (or at least considered so, for what that is worth) to the defense of the Scarus Sector and the cordon of the Eye of Terror.
More, they fear that Vraks might incite yet a new Black Crusade (within a decade, no less) and act as a springboard from which further invasions could take more worlds, spawning more heretics.
In that sort of situation, it shoudl be possible for them to mobilize significant support - from the Praeses forces (the Astartes, Titan Legions, Gaurd regiments, etc.) in and around the Eye of Terror to ensure their own security if those fears had any merit. A High official of the Munitorum shoudl be able to do that. At worst, if its loss is that important they need to destroy the facility and reclaim the planet even if that means the loss of the stores (at any cost, remember.)
But what is their response? They decide to go trench warfare over a 12 year period as the 'best response' (this after they deem they must take the planet back at 'any cost', the first option was too costly, the second option too timid and taking too long despite being less resource intensive.... it makes no bloody sense!)
Oh and its suppoed to be an impregnable fortress world. you can't fight an entire planet. Except.. you can. They're able to land troops and shit on the planet without getting attacked.
Those defences only cover certian arcs, and they only prevent the enemy from getting in low to middle orbits (At best) There's no orbital defenses or system defense ships to keep ships AWAY from the planet (ooops) Hell there are even mentions in the book that taking Vraks would be a waste of time and it should be written off.
Or ther'es the intro to Volume 5

Since Imperial Armour Volume 3, it has always been our intention to cover siege warfare in the 41st Millenium, and I had written a summary for a siege campaign for Imperial Armour book 4. After the small-scale actions of Imperial Armour Volume 4, we decided that this book would involve war on an entirely different scale, a massive conflict in which millions die over the course of a single war that lasts decades. Here is the type of war that I always imagined the Imperium fought, and was so often depicted in the artwork; thousands of men marching to battle against massed tanks and artillery. It is war prosecuted by the uncaring hand of the Imperium's bureacracy, endlessly grinding on.

Except that I'm not sure it's really siege warfare that we're seeing. Or probably even trench warfare. Or WW1 style warfare. What we're seeing is someone who decided to take the gameplay, the grimdark 'flavour' text, and the pictures (which depict 120mm tank guns as being big enough to stick your entire head in - and you can apparently carry 40 rounds of that in a conveniently placed pocket dimension inside the tank.) literally and based the entire book around that. Which is probably why it turned out contrived and stupid. Storm of Iron was more 'accurate' in that regard, and it had guys dumb enough to believe an atmosphere was poisonous even though they werne't required to wear respirators outside!

Basically, Vraks is written the same way imperial armour 3 is written, it is contrived to put the Imperium in a bad position where they cannot possibly win or utilize their resources to maximum because... OH LOOK AT THE KITTY!

[Simon_Jester]

Those defences only cover certian arcs, and they only prevent the enemy from getting in low to middle orbits (At best) There's no orbital defenses or system defense ships to keep ships AWAY from the planet (ooops) Hell there are even mentions in the book that taking Vraks would be a waste of time and it should be written off.

If there were, they probably wouldn't have participated in the mutiny anyway, and the Imperium wouldn't have to worry about them.

[Connor MacLeod]

The point is that without any sort of fixed or mobile orbital defenses, the Imperium should have total control of the airspace even if they can't land troops and vehicles and shit directly ON Vraks.

You dont even need fancy antigrav vehiclse to find this silly and retarded based on the capabilities the Imperium has (hell the Imperium DEMONSTRATES. Remember how Space MArines owuld never assault Vraks? then we get the Dark Angels doing exactly that?)

Even if somehow we accpet the premise that orbitla bombardment is totally ruled out by the defenses (which I don't accept save by Imperial armour fiat) and they can't drop troops directly, they can just drop them on some other part of the planet and then skim the ground close til they get close enough to deploy them. Use heavy artillery (superheavies, melta/plasma charges launched by artillery, if not actual nukes) and other shit to blast a path through the defenses. Or hell, use all that artilley and superheavy tanks to take out part of the anti-air/anti-ship defenses, drop Space Marines in to widen an opening to invade, and then deploy the forces via dropship/shuttle close to or on the fort. They did something like that in Taros, and they did something like that in Dark Creed, and Storm of Iron, and quite a few other novels I can think of.

Damn, I should have thought about all this long before. Well that goes to show how you can miss things staring oyu in the face if you aren't paying attention or knowledgable enough *shrugs* What was that about me having 'good' analysis?

Edit: Also Vraks was supposed to be a 'huge' War by Imperial terms.. but 'millions' dead over decades is not a big war by Imperial terms. even the flavour text says stuff like 'millions dead in a day' or something. And we've generally seen much bigger conflicts (unless its an Iron Warriors/Ultramarines novel.)

[Sea Skimmer]

If all 8 million defenders were killed, and ignoring the fact that the battle went on long enough to breed more troops, its like 1,000 people killed a day. MY GOD HOW GRIMDARK the battle is killing fewer people than cigarette smoking is in the US alone!

I still can't get over the rejected option to blockade for hundreds of years part either. Logically if they actually wanted the stuff back, a blockade and starve strategy is best if a rapid coup de main is impossible, because it reduces the risk of destruction to that of defender sabotage only, a big risk, but at least you'll take no other losses. But.. since the planet is habitable how do you starve the bastards out? They could just grow food endlessly, and probably grow it all within that fortress perimeter if it encompasses hundreds of square kilometers of land as it seems it does. Looks like the author totally ignored this or just generally wasn't thinking, again. Was the hundreds of years based on soil exhaustion or something? It certainly seems unlikely that they'd have ~200 year supply of canned food in the fortress and do nothing until it ran out and they all starve.

[Zinegata]

There's no indication in the books that that Vraks can support agriculture, although it's entirely possible that this is only because Vraks never had to rely on agriculture due to constant resupply of canned food.

That being said, the Imperium does have an extensive chemical warfare arsenal that could rapidly turn farms into wastelands.

====

Also, about World War 1 IN SPACE...

I have to remind folks about the Gaunt novel Straight Silver, which had a much better justification for World War 1 IN SPACE. Basically, the reason this happens is because the planet is a low-tech world (basically just entering the industrial age) that ended up fighting a civil war. So both sides (loyalist and Chaos) were largely using foot infantry armies and artillery (almost no tanks), where the use of trenches is prevalent.

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah, and in Straight Silver the trench war tactics are explicitly presented as stupid, obsolete, and badly thought out by the Guard officers present.

[Sea Skimmer]

There's no indication in the books that that Vraks can support agriculture, although it's entirely possible that this is only because Vraks never had to rely on agriculture due to constant resupply of canned food.

I get the impression people can breath on the surface, which strongly suggests it would be able to support plant life, though certainly not a given.

That being said, the Imperium does have an extensive chemical warfare arsenal that could rapidly turn farms into wastelands.

This would still raise the question of, they have hundreds of years of canned food? 2lb of food and packaging per person per day for 8 million people for 200 years would be... 584 million tons! That's basically one MRE per day too, though dehydration could reduce it a fair bit. Still going to be past the hundred million ton range. The storage space required would be rather vast, and I suspect larger then the required space for hydroponics farms. Maybe the limit is fertilizer. In any event, I doubt a good explanation exists for such an absurd time frame.

[Connor MacLeod]

One of the ideas of the depot/stockpile worlds like Vraks is that they store huge inventories of equipment and supplies underground, on the 'theory' (I use this term loosely, since this is Munitorum we're talking about) that they can quickly and efficiently route supplies to needed warzones iwthin the sector (or beyond, if need be) in times of crisis, or wartime. They covered it a fair bit in the Munitorum manual (but I'd have to dig it out to find the details) but stockpiling ludicrous amounts of rations would be part and parcel of that. How they store or stockpile it is another story, but its not impossible for them to do so for centuries given they have stasis tech that is sometimes used (at least on starships) for preserving perishable items and other things. Whether or not stasis tech is lost-tech depends on your author of course.

That assumes the Vraks authors thought that far ahead though and they are not (in my opinion) likely to be the sorts to do research like that.

[Sea Skimmer]

Army ration stockpile does make sense if they have a way of preserving it that long, though in general this whole prepositioning idea makes about zero sense in the content of the way FTL works, and the lack of any obvious , or well at least mention of locally based shipping to move all the stuff.