Eldar versus Clonies.

[Connor MacLeod]

As I recall, a few kilomerers. Certainly the CIS positions and the clone landing area were within walking distance of one another.

That seems to vary according to the parrticular front or battle in question. According to the ITW:AOTC book, there were at least 3-4 different "fronts" occuring simultaneously.,

One would assume that both sides deploy simultaneously. Certainly the Acclamators wouldn't finish deployment before the shooting starts.

THat depends on the Jedi/Eldar in question and the abilities in question I imagine. Given my limited knowledge of 40k stuff, I'm not sure on the comparison (Except for what they might be capable of relative to an IoM Inquisitor.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Connor, the op plus notes
Basically everything of the Confed forces is replaced by eldar stuff, obviously not in the same numbers, assume similar numbers to the Clones.

So basically the Republic no longer enjoys the advantages it held against the battle droids. Meaning that the two engagements aren't going to even be remotely identical.

Geonosis is an Eldar maiden world and the republic is attacking for kicks.

So the Eldar are not going to be trying to run away like the Separatists did (meaning that they won't be fighting a holding action against the Republic.)

The scenario is as that of the film, Jedi included, Dooku is replaced by either a Autarch or a Biel-tan Farseer who came to the Seers path from the path of the Warlock, i.e. a battle farseer. Jango Fett is replaced by the Alanthrasil Swiftblade, an Eldar Pirate lord.

No it is *not* identical. It is not even remotely identical. The Separatists were fleeing geonosis, attempting to take most of the droid army on-planet with them (which the Republic was attempting to stop both on the ground and in space.) The Republic was attempting to capture key leaders and data that might be useful in terms of discovering the Separatists' intentions and whatnot. The Separatist army had a massive numerical advantage (at least 5:1), but it lacked much in the way of heavy armor and artillery and almost totally lacked air support. And qualitatively speaking, battle droids aren't really that good of soldiers to begin with.

Whatever prevented the Acclamators and the rest of the fleet doing anything useful is in place here, be it Giant eldar D-cannons, shields, or whatever. The Eldar airpower is present.

So Eldar have huge, shields equivalent to what the Separatist ships carried? How likely sounding is that to you, parrticulariyl when there is very little about this scenario comparable to Geonosis (Since the Eldar have air support, for one thing.) You might as well give them turbolasers and Jedi precognition while you're at it. And even assuming this means the turbolasers somehow aren't usable, how does this affect the point defense guns (since there is no possible way they could inflict much harm on large warships, shields or no.)

Frankly I am finding this scenario rather absurd and unfair to the clones if you're forcing them to obey the letter of the movies but not making similar restrictions upon the Eldar.

[Lancer]

Distort-cannons are much worse than turbolasers. Having entire ships (or even chunks of your ship) gouged out from reality isn't a very good thing.

And with the farseer involved, the Eldar already have an equivalent to Jedi precog.

[Connor MacLeod]

But how much large scale combat training did they have? They may have been quite familiar with how to curb stomp a small pirate base with overwhelming force

Years worth, presumably. The Kaminoans actually conducted live fire battle training exercises in large training rooms designed to simulate different varieites of terrain (a snow terrain is shown in the ITW: AOTC book.) At the very least, they should be trained to operate at the Regimental (around 2300 men per regiment) level in combat.. I believe the ITW:AOTC book infers Jedi commanded clone companies of around 36,000 or so.

but the clones tactics against the droid army could have clearly been better.

Sure, but the clone army at the time of AOTC hasn't really been utilized yet in combat, particularily by the Jedi commanders (who themselves are not really prepared for a war at this point.) Its the Jedi who are commanding this force, remember. Mistakes are to be expected.

Of course, if the training is that big a deal, one has to wonder why you're pitting inexperienced and untested troops and commanders against a similarily equipped and equally-sized, but presumably better trained and more experienceed opponent. (To say nothing of expecting the clones to fight exactly as they did in the movie against an enemy who is NOT going to fight exactly like the Separatists did in the movie...)

[NecronLord]

Okay. So remind me again please WHY the clones are goign to fight the Eldar as if they're the separatist battle droid army, because the logic of this eludes me. (This battle and the AOTC battle are not even REMOTELY comparable, judging by what "substitutions" have been made.)

Short answer. They're not. Long answer. Anyone who says that is an idiot.

That is going to be something of a problem against the Eldar then, at least within LOS of the Acclamators. What about landing craft or barges or whatnot? How large are they?

Unknown. The IoM has large scale landing barges, but the Eldar don't need them, because of their webway technology. In theory, a small craft can carry a portal to land an entire army. This however, isn't good for combat insertion, and I would anticipate that large scale eldar landing barges exist somewhere.

What place? Unless the Eldar are running away like the Separatists, trying to take the place intact isnt going to do much good now is it?

Whatever facilities the Eldar are defending.

Besides, the whole reason capital guns weren't used against the Separatists was because their vessels were shielded, and the kinds of coordinated and sustained bombardment needed to bring them down would be too dangerous inside the atmosphere of a planet (precision strikes llike the SPHA-Ts made would be a different story)

I'm really dubious when the ITW says this. I think it's far more a case of the Republic not being ruthless enough to use orbital bombardment.

They might not be able to use the quad turbolasers against most of the Eldar (they sseem to be shitty at capital ship combat, so they might not be able to target) Anyhow, since they're all LOS weaponry anyhow their range is goign to be limited. I don't see any problem with using the lighter laser cannons, though.

Agreed. Acclamator guns are something of an afterthought in the design IMO. The Eldar's best option would be to insert webway portals and then run away from the Republic ships.

THat depends on the Jedi/Eldar in question and the abilities in question I imagine. Given my limited knowledge of 40k stuff, I'm not sure on the comparison (Except for what they might be capable of relative to an IoM Inquisitor.)

The combat psyker descriptions have gotten truly rediculous of late. There's a bit about either a Space Marine Librarian or an Eldar Warlock (basically a Jedi) shooting lightning at some enemy soldiers, which results in thier internal organs exploding out of them. Laughable stuff.

[Skelron]

To make it somewhat closer to the Genosis battle why not give the Eldar something to defend, let us say this world used to be inhited by Exodites, and the Eldar are defending the worlds heart where the Souls of the dead Eldar would have been stored.

Lets go one stage further, the Eldar will pull out, but first they are attempting to evacuate the souls in the Worlds heart, this replaces the leadership trying to escape to some degree at least. The Eldar must hold the Clones at bay long enough for the souls of this world to be pulled out. For some reason the Jedi need to get hold of these souls.

[Black Admiral]

It was a Farseer, not a Warlock:

With a cursory brush of her hand, Macha sent a torrent of lightning crashing into the pathetic humanoids. She watched in curiosity as they turned themselves inside out and then imploded into tiny tears in the material fabric of the world, sucked through into the immaterium where their daemon lords waited to consume their souls.

And Librarians have a couple of nasty tricks:

With a final yell of effort, power leapt from Tyrendian's palm and a lightning bolt ripped right through the Fists' Librarian's head, coursing into Tyrendian's other hand to form a continous current of looping psychic power.

The Crimson Fists' Librarian was bathed in hot blue light as he threw up a psychic shield to keep his mind from being shredded. But Tyrendian, while he lacked subtlety in the application of his psychic talents, had immense reserves of raw power. The Crimson Fist spasmed wildly, foam spattering from his lips, his force sword falling from his shuddering hand.

The Crimson Fist's head exploded in a massive wash of psychic feedback, ripping out from him like the shockwave from a bomb blast. The Fist's body was ripped apart in a welter of blood and a storm of shattered ceramite, throwing Crimson Fists and Soul Drinkers onto the ground.

[SVPD]

But how much large scale combat training did they have? They may have been quite familiar with how to curb stomp a small pirate base with overwhelming force, but the clones tactics against the droid army could have clearly been better.

Why did they need to be better? The clone's tactics worked against the driods. You can't argue with success. The droids were defeated, without serious losses by the clones.

The reason the clone's tactics work is that they can effectively and accurately engage enemy targets while advancing on foot. Modern soldiers cannot do this; that is why real life soldiers advance from cover to cover, one unit laying suppressive fire, the other advancing in leapfrog fashion.

If the clones had lost, or even suffered very serious casualties, we could say they sucked tactically. They didn't. Tactics are jusged on effectiveness, not on how closely they resemble what 20th Century soldiers do.

If you went back to the Revolutionary War, soldiers advanced in lines then too, because that was effective in massing firepower. The tactic was effective at the time.

By WWI, changes in firearms and the prevalence of the machine gun had removed the effectiveness of those same tactics. The generals, particularly General Haig of the British, and the French General (whose name escapse me ATM) failed to grasp this change due to a combination of ego, and a fascination with "proper" soldiering. The tactics that were appropriate in the 1770's sucked in 1914.

The same applies to the clones. They emploed tactics at Geonosis that were effective, regardless of how silly they would be on 20th Century Earth. They probably continued using those tactics in some successive battles, because Geonosis taught them it worked.

[Lancer]

But how much large scale combat training did they have? They may have been quite familiar with how to curb stomp a small pirate base with overwhelming force, but the clones tactics against the droid army could have clearly been better.

Why did they need to be better? The clone's tactics worked against the driods. You can't argue with success. The droids were defeated, without serious losses by the clones.

By the "can't argue with success" standard, post-TNG Klingons are tactical geniuses for using an utterly stupid tactic (poorly designed melee weapons against powers with ranged weapons), and only just barely getting away with it due to the other side's incompetence.

And as for casualties, as we don't see the aftermath of the battle on Genosis, I seriously doubt that the clones got away with minor losses. In Clone Wars, useage of similar tactics tends to kill quite a few clonetroopers.

The reason the clone's tactics work is that they can effectively and accurately engage enemy targets while advancing on foot. Modern soldiers cannot do this; that is why real life soldiers advance from cover to cover, one unit laying suppressive fire, the other advancing in leapfrog fashion.

firing something as large as the clonetrooper rifle from the hip is not going to be an effective means of anything other than suppressive fire. From the hip, you do not have nearly as much control of aim as you would from the shoulder, and you have the mass of the weapon to contend with. From a prone, supported position, you would get much greater accuracy, and you could provide cover fire for your advancing buddies while exposing yourself to a minimal amount of hostile fire.

If the clones had lost, or even suffered very serious casualties, we could say they sucked tactically. They didn't. Tactics are jusged on effectiveness, not on how closely they resemble what 20th Century soldiers do.

Their tactics were poor, but sufficient to take on the retreating droid army. However, use of superior tactics, even the little leapfrog-cover trick, would have been useful in reducing clone casualties.

If you went back to the Revolutionary War, soldiers advanced in lines then too, because that was effective in massing firepower. The tactic was effective at the time.

And the colonials quickly learned that it was a bad idea because they were typically outnumbered by the Brittish, and in such a fight, with the weapons technology of that age, numbers determined the course of those kinds of battles.

By WWI, changes in firearms and the prevalence of the machine gun had removed the effectiveness of those same tactics. The generals, particularly General Haig of the British, and the French General (whose name escapse me ATM) failed to grasp this change due to a combination of ego, and a fascination with "proper" soldiering. The tactics that were appropriate in the 1770's sucked in 1914.

The same applies to the clones. They emploed tactics at Geonosis that were effective, regardless of how silly they would be on 20th Century Earth. They probably continued using those tactics in some successive battles, because Geonosis taught them it worked.

Visual evidence from both AOTC and the Clone Wars series shows that despite having an analog to the machine gun in the form of the clonetrooper heavy blaster rifle and the Super Battledroid wrist-blaster, they use tactics that were (in the real world) proven to be ineffective as soon as machine gun technology and trenches rolled around.

[SVPD]

By the "can't argue with success" standard, post-TNG Klingons are tactical geniuses for using an utterly stupid tactic (poorly designed melee weapons against powers with ranged weapons), and only just barely getting away with it due to the other side's incompetence.

Except that the clones didn't "barely succeed." They won soundly.

There's no point in the film at which the issue is in doubt. Count Dooku very quickly states "there are too many".

And as for casualties, as we don't see the aftermath of the battle on Genosis, I seriously doubt that the clones got away with minor losses. In Clone Wars, useage of similar tactics tends to kill quite a few clonetroopers.

They did not take enough losses to render any doubt as to the outcome, which indicates the losses were not serious. At no point is there any mention of serious casualties, nor do we see them cut down in large numbers.

firing something as large as the clonetrooper rifle from the hip is not going to be an effective means of anything other than suppressive fire. From the hip, you do not have nearly as much control of aim as you would from the shoulder, and you have the mass of the weapon to contend with. From a prone, supported position, you would get much greater accuracy, and you could provide cover fire for your advancing buddies while exposing yourself to a minimal amount of hostile fire.

Firing from the hip is less effective than firing from the shoulder? No kidding! If we were discussing 20th century troops it would be a lot less accurate. However, the clones accuracy did NOT suffer onscreen, as we see from the failure of any drids to reach the clone lines. Mr. Wong has posted a similar analysis in the AOTC analysis section

Ability to see through dust and smoke with in-helmet enhanced displays, as demonstrated when one of the Trade Federation core ships was shot down by heavy artillery. The resulting mammoth cloud of dust, debris, and smoke had no discernible effect on the clone troopers' combat effectiveness whatsoever. They continued to hold their positions and accurately annihilate incoming battle droids, not one of which was ever seen to breach the clone troopers' positions. If their in-helmet displays were similar to the scope on Zam Wessel's weapon, they probably incorporated similar targeting aids, such as its lock-on graphics.

All of your criticisms would be excellent if not for the fact that the clones shot accurately regardless of what would be poor technique for a real life rifleman.

Their tactics were poor, but sufficient to take on the retreating droid army. However, use of superior tactics, even the little leapfrog-cover trick, would have been useful in reducing clone casualties.

I agree that better use of cover would have further reduced casualties. However, we cannot say that their tactics were necessarily poor. We have only seen a lower limit for the opponent they can defeat with such tactics. The upper limit is not known.

What are poor 20th century tactics are not necessarily poor tactics on Geonosis.

I'd also point out that the Geonosis battlefield is relatively open, and cover is available, but rather scarce.

And the colonials quickly learned that it was a bad idea because they were typically outnumbered by the Brittish, and in such a fight, with the weapons technology of that age, numbers determined the course of those kinds of battles.

Which does not change the fact that those tactics were effective at the time for Britain and other European powers.

Visual evidence from both AOTC and the Clone Wars series shows that despite having an analog to the machine gun in the form of the clonetrooper heavy blaster rifle and the Super Battledroid wrist-blaster, they use tactics that were (in the real world) proven to be ineffective as soon as machine gun technology and trenches rolled around.

The clone trooper rifle is only barely an analogue to the machine gun, and the clones do not employ it as such. The wrist blaster is also not an analogue to the machine gun. Both are assault weapons employed by individuals. They are analagous to assault rifles in employment, not machine guns.

[Nephtys]

By the "can't argue with success" standard, post-TNG Klingons are tactical geniuses for using an utterly stupid tactic (poorly designed melee weapons against powers with ranged weapons), and only just barely getting away with it due to the other side's incompetence.

Except that the clones didn't "barely succeed." They won soundly.

There's no point in the film at which the issue is in doubt. Count Dooku very quickly states "there are too many".

Won soundly by throwing waves and waves of soldiers at an enemy is not exactly a very good tactic at all. Especially with the air superiority.

Firing from the hip is less effective than firing from the shoulder? No kidding! If we were discussing 20th century troops it would be a lot less accurate. However, the clones accuracy did NOT suffer onscreen, as we see from the failure of any drids to reach the clone lines. Mr. Wong has posted a similar analysis in the AOTC analysis section

It doesn't take a brilliant shot to pour fire with an automatic weapon into another opposing file of troops. Against density like that, the reason no droids reached their line is entirely the fault of the droids it would seem.

Ability to see through dust and smoke with in-helmet enhanced displays, as demonstrated when one of the Trade Federation core ships was shot down by heavy artillery. The resulting mammoth cloud of dust, debris, and smoke had no discernible effect on the clone troopers' combat effectiveness whatsoever. They continued to hold their positions and accurately annihilate incoming battle droids, not one of which was ever seen to breach the clone troopers' positions. If their in-helmet displays were similar to the scope on Zam Wessel's weapon, they probably incorporated similar targeting aids, such as its lock-on graphics.

All of your criticisms would be excellent if not for the fact that the clones shot accurately regardless of what would be poor technique for a real life rifleman.

Accurately enough again.. to hit what? A huge wave of droids. Real difficult. Why also didn't they run with such targetting? They were casually walking. Why not walk with guns at the shoulder? That's what the stock is for, right?

Their tactics were poor, but sufficient to take on the retreating droid army. However, use of superior tactics, even the little leapfrog-cover trick, would have been useful in reducing clone casualties.

I agree that better use of cover would have further reduced casualties. However, we cannot say that their tactics were necessarily poor. We have only seen a lower limit for the opponent they can defeat with such tactics. The upper limit is not known.

What are poor 20th century tactics are not necessarily poor tactics on Geonosis.

I'd also point out that the Geonosis battlefield is relatively open, and cover is available, but rather scarce.

I'm sorry, but advancing in a dense block is poor tactics for anyone with automatic ranged weaponry that has a one-hit-out capabiltiy, which blasters are pretty much shown to have. Yeah. So instead of using 20th Century tactics, our clone friends use 17th Century tactics.

Visual evidence from both AOTC and the Clone Wars series shows that despite having an analog to the machine gun in the form of the clonetrooper heavy blaster rifle and the Super Battledroid wrist-blaster, they use tactics that were (in the real world) proven to be ineffective as soon as machine gun technology and trenches rolled around.

The clone trooper rifle is only barely an analogue to the machine gun, and the clones do not employ it as such. The wrist blaster is also not an analogue to the machine gun. Both are assault weapons employed by individuals. They are analagous to assault rifles in employment, not machine guns.

Big deal. Assault Rifle, Machine Gun... so would you walk towards thirty people spraying assault rifle fire at you? What matters really is that doing that in ANY situation involving automatic weapons, you are going to pile bodies up. The only reasons then it seems that the clones came out with any people left at all were their numbers and the fact that the droids seem to be a very inept fighting force.

[white_rabbit]

So basically the Republic no longer enjoys the advantages it held against the battle droids. Meaning that the two engagements aren't going to even be remotely identical.

Well fuck me, what a shame.

So the Eldar are not going to be trying to run away like the Separatists did (meaning that they won't be fighting a holding action against the Republic.)

*shrug*

No it is *not* identical. It is not even remotely identical. The Separatists were fleeing geonosis, attempting to take most of the droid army on-planet with them (which the Republic was attempting to stop both on the ground and in space.) The Republic was attempting to capture key leaders and data that might be useful in terms of discovering the Separatists' intentions and whatnot. The Separatist army had a massive numerical advantage (at least 5:1), but it lacked much in the way of heavy armor and artillery and almost totally lacked air support. And qualitatively speaking, battle droids aren't really that good of soldiers to begin with.

Yeah, very nice. So your problem is, the Clonies are no longer out numbered, the Eldar have different weapons blah blah blah blah.

The Clonies are attacking, they want to try and capture/Kill Dooku, and/or destroy the eldar forces, and Eldar infrastructure.

So Eldar have huge, shields equivalent to what the Separatist ships carried? How likely sounding is that to you, parrticulariyl when there is very little about this scenario comparable to Geonosis (Since the Eldar have air support, for one thing.) You might as well give them turbolasers and Jedi precognition while you're at it

Well, to be honest, its unlikely that the Eldar are even going to be on Geonosis, which I picked because its easy to think of, and has data on it reasonably well availiable. I wanted to see how the Eldar would be thought to go against the Clonies without the rather simple, boring and shite response " they gets blowed up by the Acclamators" The location of a maiden world was chosen as a perfunctory attempt to have some point to the eldar being there that would make them defend rather than just buggering off through webway portals, a completely unpreventable event.


So, I frankly don't give a shit if you find it unlikely or not, and I suggest if it upsets so badly, you go away.

Frankly I am finding this scenario rather absurd and unfair to the clones if you're forcing them to obey the letter of the movies but not making similar restrictions upon the Eldar.

Well shit, what a shame (pencils in another who thinks the clonies might concievably not win without orbital support but for some reason can't just fucking type it)

The only way the Clonies obey the letter of the movie is that they are attacking in the same scenario. i.e. without Starship weaponry cover, against an enemy in the same locations, who must deploy from there also.

I've deleted this line several times, just trying to phrase it somehow that gets through to you,

Its a versus meant to pit the two forces against each other. I haven't done anything to the clonies original resources, if its not clear to you, I don't give a monkeys at the moment about the space battle.

Well fuck it.

Here we go, the Eldar are in exactly the same position as the Seperatists, and there is no shield of any sorts at all. the Clonies want to do exactly what they wanted to do in the film.

The eldar army deploys, the Acclamators blow the living fuck out of it, being completely and utterly invunerable to anything the eldar can throw at them, even the space based stuff, which gets raped by the faster, stronger, infinately more capable Wars vessels, even the giant Craftworld thats in orbit. Yeah, that gets fucked as well...by a single Acclamator. Obi-Wan and Anakin get exploded by a Farseer, the muppet eats a warp rift as well. Mace tries to sneak up on an Eldar and gets embroiled in a duel on the observation lounge bit with a farseer and an Eldar pirate...which means he's pretty much dead.

The Clonies mop up the shattered remnants of the Eldar, the vast majority of survivors escape through Webway portals underground. Arha, a four armed Chaos Phoenix lord kills tons of people underground ala General Grievous.

See how fucking boring that is ?

Of course, if the training is that big a deal, one has to wonder why you're pitting inexperienced and untested troops and commanders against a similarily equipped and equally-sized, but presumably better trained and more experienceed opponent. (To say nothing of expecting the clones to fight exactly as they did in the movie against an enemy who is NOT going to fight exactly like the Separatists did in the movie...)

Jesus christ, another concession hidden in a paragraph of bullshit.

So what, now I have to balance every aspect of the versus so the Clones aren't going to have any disadvantages ? Like they would normally against a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SODDING ENEMY ???!

Okay, because Eldar gunship/transports, i.e. the Vampire Raiders, might be faster or whatever than LAATs, they are now slower, and are flown by babies.

Hey, BTW, Shuriken rifles ? yeah, they can't even penetrate a Clonies SKIN!

And all the Clonies are seasoned 40 year veterans.(except they would probably be fucked by then, so make it that they ARENT clones, but are actually just normal humans, trained like the clones, with extended lifespans, so they can have the centuries of combat experiance an Aspect warrior is likely to have, because we have to make sure this is a balanced fight, with no unfair advantages like one sides stuff simply being different)

This however, isn't good for combat insertion, and I would anticipate that large scale eldar landing barges exist somewhere

I don't think they would actually "land" something, I suspect given the "high altitude" flight capability of their tanks etc, they deploy vehicles from the lower atmosphere, and troops/light units from Vampires.

[Glimmervoid]

Hay who ever said the eldar would be screwed in space.

Eldar ships can go up against Imperium of Man warships and win (in fact 3 hemlock class escorts were able to fight there way in to a secure ship yard and blow up a captured eldar ship and get out aging with out losses). The
Imperium of Man are only slightly worse that the empires. Add to that, that the ships we a talking about have a lot less fire power than the empires did and the space battle is far form a bye gone conclusion.

[Glimmervoid]

who ever said the eldar would be screwed in space.

Eldar ships can go up against Imperium of Man warships and win (in fact 3 hemlock class escorts were able to fight there way in to a secure ship yard and blow up a captured eldar ship and get out aging with out losses). The
Imperium of Man are only slightly worse that the empires. Add to that, that the ships we a talking about have a lot less fire power than the empires did and the space battle is far form a bye gone conclusion.

[NecronLord]

No. The IoM are a lot worse than the Empire. A few teratons per five minute broardside for a battleship against that for a two second troop-ship barrage.

[Black Admiral]

The side batteries of the Omnia Vincit lit up and stayed lit. The Navarre's shields soaked up the merciless bombardment for several seconds, swirling and coruscating like molten glass. Then they began to buckle and fail. The Navarre heeled over, its hull shredding and burning.

Now, taking the five minute firepower dispersion, assuming "seconds" to mean five seconds exactly, that the Omnia Vincit has the broadside firepower of a Retribution-class BB (which it doesn't, as it's a carrier) and that the Navarre's shields were not concentrated on the same vector as the incoming fire, then the shield facing under fire absorbed 122 GT (incidentally, given the Navarre's size and tonnage class, about 1/6th of the energy needed to collapse her shield facing).

[NecronLord]

A single example. The general rule is that a turn in BFG lasts several minutes. This is the time it takes to deliver one torpedo, or make a broadside attack.

There could be any number of reasons why this incident only took seconds. Perhaps the IoM gunners *gasp* actually hit the enemy with every weapon.

[Black Admiral]

The Murder-class vessel presented its port side to Bellus as the two ships came alongside one another in a deadly jousting pass. In a tactic dating back to the birth of mankind's naval wars, both starships unleashed a punishing broadside, and for a second, the space between them was threaded with hot lances of laser light and the thin trails of missile salvoes. Bellus rocked with the impact and lost pressure on a dozen decks.

Emphasis mine.

The Bellus, as an example of a battlebarge mercilessly optimised for ship-to-ship actions, is much more heavily shielded than standard (possessing dual void shielding systems (Deus Sanguinius, page 186), and even with all her shielding concentrated on the broadside facing Dirge Eterna, she still took damage.

[Imperial Overlord]

The quote seems to suggest a battle at such close range that missles were able to hit their targets within seconds. Granted that 40K tends to fight at longer ranges than those depicted by Star Wars (although the ICS makes it clear that Star Wars ships can fight at greater distances than those depicted on screen), this is point blank range for 40k and where maximum damage will be done by broadsides and urder Murder class cruisers have a nasty broadside.

The exact degree of inferiority to Star Wars ships may be up in the air, but it is clear that Star Wars ships have greater firepower than 40K ships one hundred times their size. This is somewhat offset by 40K's larger size, but they are clearly inferior to much smaller Star Wars ships.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

No. The IoM are a lot worse than the Empire. A few teratons per five minute broardside for a battleship against that for a two second troop-ship barrage.

Wouldn't that be considered game mechanics?

I am confuuused.[/Nic Cage]

[Connor MacLeod]

Short answer. They're not. Long answer. Anyone who says that is an idiot.

Okay. So now this does beg the question is what exactly do the Eldar have? The actual composition of their forces has not been laid out and seems to be very open ended (Which is also rather annoying, since it allows them to basically "pick and choose' the forces best suited to the situation, whereas the clones are far more constrained in what they have available, especially if one is restricted to the "movie-only" logic which seems to be prevalent in this thread.)

We know they have similar numbers, they presumably have air support and artillery (unlike the Separatists), but thats all I really s ee being mentioned.

Whatever facilities the Eldar are defending.

I've seen quotes (And I think Black Admiral posted them) about cremation-level energy outputs which are more significant. PHysically at least most of the "psychic" 40K groups (exlcuding the unique or individual characters) tend to be at least as good if not better than most Jedi, particularily in raw energy output (TK is maybe a closer match.) But this is all largely besides the point because I never figured the Jedi would try to engage them in hand to hand (dumb as they were in the arena, that is.). Rather they'd use their abilities from a distance to support the clones ( They tend to be more effective at a distance anyhow, especially in groups.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Well fuck me, what a shame.

Gee, you apparently didn't grasp my point. The two (The Separatists and the Eldar) aren't even remotely identical, so there is no valid reason to be claiming that the battles will occur the same (or that the clones will fight them in the same way), contrary to what seems to be the prevailing logic in this thread.

Yeah, very nice. So your problem is, the Clonies are no longer out numbered, the Eldar have different weapons blah blah blah blah.

Did you even READ what I posted? The Clones are in no way going to engage the Eldar the same way they did the droids - they were pursuing a fleeing enemy fighting a rearguard action. An enemy that lacked aerial support, artillery, and heavy ground vehicles (the heaviest ground vehicle I recall were the large spider droids, and the only thing qualifying as artillery were the hailfire droids.)

The Clonies are attacking, they want to try and capture/Kill Dooku, and/or destroy the eldar forces, and Eldar infrastructure.

Simple destruction is going to make things easier for the clones (and really wasn't in the movies anyhow) The simplest thing is to use the Acclamators to bombard them, but even barring that they can attack from a standoff distance using gunship missiles, SPHA-Ts and the AT-TE mass drivers to achieve the objective.

Well, to be honest, its unlikely that the Eldar are even going to be on Geonosis, which I picked because its easy to think of, and has data on it reasonably well availiable. I wanted to see how the Eldar would be thought to go against the Clonies without the rather simple, boring and shite response " they gets blowed up by the Acclamators" The location of a maiden world was chosen as a perfunctory attempt to have some point to the eldar being there that would make them defend rather than just buggering off through webway portals, a completely unpreventable event.

Why? The Acclamators are just as important a part to the Clone's ability to fight as the ground/air vehicles or weapons are. They might not use full powered quad TLs indiscriminately against enemies because a GT-range blast (much less several of them) will create widespread destrtuction that can easily encompass any forces they use over probable engagement ranges. (they could always use the SPHA-Ts in their place if they needed anyhow), but there's no possible reason they can't use the lighter guns, as I already outlined to Necronlord.

Well shit, what a shame (pencils in another who thinks the clonies might concievably not win without orbital support but for some reason can't just fucking type it)

The only way the Clonies obey the letter of the movie is that they are attacking in the same scenario. i.e. without Starship weaponry cover, against an enemy in the same locations, who must deploy from there also.

The scenario is already altered beyond what occured in the movies (as I outlined). Its deliberately one-sided to expect the clones to be exactly the same as they were in the movies and yet somehow keep things "conveniently" open ended for the Eldar. Besides which, why the fuck has noone bothered to give a more thorough breakdown of what the Eldar exactly have for those of us who don't really have any familiarity with 40K?

Here we go, the Eldar are in exactly the same position as the Seperatists, and there is no shield of any sorts at all. the Clonies want to do exactly what they wanted to do in the film.

Meaning that they want to capture the Separatist "leadership" (including preventing their escape), preventing the departure of Separatist ships carrying their droid army contents, find evidence of Separatist complicity. This also means the Eldar are expected to try and delay the clones long enough to allow this to happen.

BTW, what's to prevent the Eldar from simply destrroying any "evidencec" and preventing it from falling into Republic hands, exactly?

The eldar army deploys, the Acclamators blow the living fuck out of it, being completely and utterly invunerable to anything the eldar can throw at them,

Don't be an idiot. Any attempt to use firepower beyond what the light guns have (maybe even if that) is goign to be disastrous for both the clones in the field AND the Eldar. Energy weapons need LOS to be effective, which means that the subsidiary effects of large outputs of energy (fireballs and such) would be large enough to endanger their own troops. And that's not even addressing the whole "capture Dooku and the Separatists" bit. So how is bombardment by kiloton/megaton range weaponry going to be a problem? The gunships, and SPHA-Ts at least, if not the AT-TE mass drivers, are going to be packign at least kiloton firepower as well (if not megaton range.)

even the space based stuff, which gets raped by the faster, stronger, infinately more capable Wars vessels, even the giant Craftworld thats in orbit.

I never said anything about the space stuff now did I? My complaints dealt with the straitjacketing of the Clones in terms of resources and tactics, and the apparent lack thereof for the Eldar (tactically anyhow - whether or not the same applies to their resources is hard to judge since there hasn't been very much done to clarify just WHAT forces the Eldar have at their disposal.). So stop whining already. I know my point made sense, since Necronlord apparently got it.

Jesus christ, another concession hidden in a paragraph of bullshit.

What bullshit? I admit that they were untested troops lead by inexperienced and unfamiliar leadership whose military knowledge and tactics are questionable. Unlike everyone else, I simply fail to see why this is s upposed to be such a huge deciding factor, unless people are (ludicrously) expecting the clones to fight the Eldar in the exact same manner as they did the droids, despite the blatant differences between the two forces. Again, why should the clones be straightjacketed in certain ways and the Eldar not, since that is and has been the distinct impression I have been getting.

So what, now I have to balance every aspect of the versus so the Clones aren't going to have any disadvantages ? Like they would normally against a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SODDING ENEMY ???!

Yet you felt no compunctions about denying the use of the Acclamators to the clones, as an example. Even though it would technically qualify as an "advantage" to them and a disadvantage to the Eldar. (So what? It sounds as if the Eldar have advantages the clones don't.)

Okay, because Eldar gunship/transports, i.e. the Vampire Raiders, might be faster or whatever than LAATs, they are now slower, and are flown by babies.

Hey, BTW, Shuriken rifles ? yeah, they can't even penetrate a Clonies SKIN!
]
And all the Clonies are seasoned 40 year veterans.(except they would probably be fucked by then, so make it that they ARENT clones, but are actually just normal humans, trained like the clones, with extended lifespans, so they can have the centuries of combat experiance an Aspect warrior is likely to have, because we have to make sure this is a balanced fight, with no unfair advantages like one sides stuff simply being different)

Are you done throwing a tantrum yet?

[Black Admiral]

I've seen quotes (And I think Black Admiral posted them) about cremation-level energy outputs which are more significant. PHysically at least most of the "psychic" 40K groups (exlcuding the unique or individual characters) tend to be at least as good if not better than most Jedi, particularily in raw energy output (TK is maybe a closer match.) But this is all largely besides the point because I never figured the Jedi would try to engage them in hand to hand (dumb as they were in the arena, that is.). Rather they'd use their abilities from a distance to support the clones ( They tend to be more effective at a distance anyhow, especially in groups.)

Actually, engaging a farseer in hand-to-hand would probably be the best way to negate their powers, since farseers generally aren't as physically powerful as Space Marine Librarians or Inquisitors in physical combat, and fairly obviously can't draw on their more unpleasant powers if they're trying to fend off a skilled opponent in HtH.

[SVPD]

Won soundly by throwing waves and waves of soldiers at an enemy is not exactly a very good tactic at all. Especially with the air superiority.

In case you hadn't noticed, the air support was busy destroying the techno union ships and the Hailfires. Furthermore, the soundness of a tactic is demonstrated by it's effectivness, not by preconceptions.

It doesn't take a brilliant shot to pour fire with an automatic weapon into another opposing file of troops. Against density like that, the reason no droids reached their line is entirely the fault of the droids it would seem.

You still have to HIT something for automatic weapon fire to be effective. That requires accurate targeting, otherwise you just spray shots. Most of the clones did not seem to be firing on full automatic either, they were firing single shots.

Accurately enough again.. to hit what? A huge wave of droids. Real difficult. Why also didn't they run with such targetting? They were casually walking. Why not walk with guns at the shoulder? That's what the stock is for, right?

Given the fact that they COULD hit indicates that use of the stock is not absolutely necessary. Why didn't they run? Probably so NCOs could better keep track of their troops, and units wouldn't get too spread out.

This nonsense about the "mass of droids" is a tacit concession anyhow, that their tactics were effective. Massing firepower is a basic principle of warefare.

I'm sorry, but advancing in a dense block is poor tactics for anyone with automatic ranged weaponry that has a one-hit-out capabiltiy, which blasters are pretty much shown to have. Yeah. So instead of using 20th Century tactics, our clone friends use 17th Century tactics.

It's not poor tactics if it works. You seem locked into an idea of what would happen if this battel were fought by real soldiers, and want to force that to happen on Geonosis.

Big deal. Assault Rifle, Machine Gun... so would you walk towards thirty people spraying assault rifle fire at you? What matters really is that doing that in ANY situation involving automatic weapons, you are going to pile bodies up. The only reasons then it seems that the clones came out with any people left at all were their numbers and the fact that the droids seem to be a very inept fighting force.

The clones took very acceptable casulaty rates. The only bodies piling up were droids. I wouldn't advance into 30 people firing assault rifles, but I am also not part of a huge army equipped with weapons that can easily hit those people while we advance.

[Lancer]

Won soundly by throwing waves and waves of soldiers at an enemy is not exactly a very good tactic at all. Especially with the air superiority.

In case you hadn't noticed, the air support was busy destroying the techno union ships and the Hailfires. Furthermore, the soundness of a tactic is demonstrated by it's effectivness, not by preconceptions.

It doesn't take a brilliant shot to pour fire with an automatic weapon into another opposing file of troops. Against density like that, the reason no droids reached their line is entirely the fault of the droids it would seem.

You still have to HIT something for automatic weapon fire to be effective. That requires accurate targeting, otherwise you just spray shots. Most of the clones did not seem to be firing on full automatic either, they were firing single shots.

Accurately enough again.. to hit what? A huge wave of droids. Real difficult. Why also didn't they run with such targetting? They were casually walking. Why not walk with guns at the shoulder? That's what the stock is for, right?

Given the fact that they COULD hit indicates that use of the stock is not absolutely necessary. Why didn't they run? Probably so NCOs could better keep track of their troops, and units wouldn't get too spread out.

This nonsense about the "mass of droids" is a tacit concession anyhow, that their tactics were effective. Massing firepower is a basic principle of warefare.

I'm sorry, but advancing in a dense block is poor tactics for anyone with automatic ranged weaponry that has a one-hit-out capabiltiy, which blasters are pretty much shown to have. Yeah. So instead of using 20th Century tactics, our clone friends use 17th Century tactics.

It's not poor tactics if it works. You seem locked into an idea of what would happen if this battel were fought by real soldiers, and want to force that to happen on Geonosis.

And in the situation outlined by the OP, the clones will be fighting real soldiers who actually do know what the fuck they're doing, and will use tactics with brutal effectiveness.