Tau: "Good" Guys? (WH40K)

Inquisitor Ryan · Post by **Inquisitor Ryan** » 2006-11-08 08:41pm

Or they were unhappy about the general response to that book... (Unlikely or it would never have made the shelves I think...)

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-11-09 05:51am

Big Orange wrote:Whatever happened I can't really feel for the Necrontyr if you had pensioners (the Old Ones) having their cultivated garden wreaked by a load of petulant brats wanting something they don't deserve.

Why don't they 'deserve' it?

Inquisitor Ryan · Post by **Inquisitor Ryan** » 2006-11-09 10:41am

Exactly I find that offensive.

These old ones enslave and or cultivate every species except yours, helping species who don't need it, and the one species that could use the help, yours, essentially gets given the bird. And there is no indication that the Old Ones are any "Older" than the Necrontyr

I always got the impression that out of all the races in 40k the Necrontyr were the ones who could have used a decent break in their lives.

Eldar: Got what they deserved...
Orks: Well they are just living it up...
Imperium: Is getting what it deserves...(Well maybe more than it's fair share, but balance people.)
Dark Eldar: Do you honestly think they get a decent nights sleep in their culture, or any sleep at all, no wonder that they are all torturers...
Tau: Need a stiff kick in the teeth to set them in their place, they've had it too good so far...
Chaos: Can't be any happier than they were before they betrayed the Imperium...
Tyranids: Imagine being so fat you were hungry 24/7 no matter how much you eat...
Stouts: Now you know the consequences of bringing drunkards into the 41st millenium.

Then you have the poor Necrons: Cursed to cancer from birth, their attempts to expand were met hostily by an ancient race who tried to exterminate them, then you summon a god who eventually decided that all his followers made a mighty nice snack. Then they wake up millenia later to discover that the universe still hates them.
Reading this don't you think that just once they deserve something nice to happen to them?

(Oh and the Old Ones more than got what they deserve by overusing the power of the warp and creating Tzeentch. At least in my opinion, not enough emotion to have been Khorne, not plaguey enough to have been Nurgle. (Is Plaguey even a word......)..)

speaker-to-trolls · Post by **speaker-to-trolls** » 2006-11-09 11:51am

Inquisitor Ryan wrote: Imperium: Is getting what it deserves...(Well maybe more than it's fair share, but balance people.)

Balance? You mean the Imperium should get more shit than it deserves to compensate for the fact that the Tau haven't gotten enough and that the Orks are loving what they are getting?

Inquisitor Ryan wrote: Chaos: Can't be any happier than they were before they betrayed the Imperium...

Huh? What about Slaanesh worshippers? And surely if Khornates can still feel happiness they'd never be happier than on a demon world killing all the live long day, same for Tzeentchians when they're plotting the downfall of civilisations or Nurglites when they're spreading the love of Grandfather Nurgle around the universe.

Inquisitor Ryan · Post by **Inquisitor Ryan** » 2006-11-09 04:43pm

The Imperium cops more shit to essentially justify its extreme levels of xenophobia and paranoia.
Honestly the security policies in the Imperium make America, Iraq, Soviet Era Russia and the Nazi party look positively humanitarian.

And as for chaos they are little more than dogs, they do what their master wants and they get a treat, otherwise they spend all their time moping. (Or worse. I'd imagine killing yourself over and over again is quite possible in the warp.)

And the Orks need something bad to happen to them, it's pointless having a universe of misery if one race is happy just cause it gets into lots of fights. However I imagine the suffering of the Grots and Snotlings makes up for it.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-11-09 05:24pm

speaker-to-trolls wrote:Huh? What about Slaanesh worshippers? And surely if Khornates can still feel happiness they'd never be happier than on a demon world killing all the live long day, same for Tzeentchians when they're plotting the downfall of civilisations or Nurglites when they're spreading the love of Grandfather Nurgle around the universe.

I wouldn't say the average khornate is happier than the average heroin addict. Sure, they're really happy when they can get what they like, but when they're wandering around the demonworld with only a chain axe for company. Slanesshi tend to end up in uttermost pain in horrible and sundry ways, Tzeentchians are likely to end up completely insane and/or turned into something, and have rampant paranoia.

The only ones liable to end up all that 'happy' are Nurgleites.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-11-09 05:30pm

Inquisitor Ryan wrote:The Imperium cops more shit to essentially justify its extreme levels of xenophobia and paranoia.
Honestly the security policies in the Imperium make America, Iraq, Soviet Era Russia and the Nazi party look positively humanitarian.

You have that backwards. The xenophobia and paranoia come from the amount of shit they take.

And as for chaos they are little more than dogs, they do what their master wants and they get a treat, otherwise they spend all their time moping. (Or worse. I'd imagine killing yourself over and over again is quite possible in the warp.)

Eh. I wouldn't really agree with the way you say that.

And the Orks need something bad to happen to them, it's pointless having a universe of misery if one race is happy just cause it gets into lots of fights. However I imagine the suffering of the Grots and Snotlings makes up for it.

The theme isn't misery, so much as evil and general Moorcock-ish angst. In that respect, orks have a place. Squats, on the other hand, as a capable, relatively cheerful, and powerful bastion of sanity, with psykers of great power who don't fuck up (in that they had to be a certain degree of Old and Wise before psyker ability would manifest, meaning that their honoured elders {or whatever they were} were pretty much too smart to be corrupted) had to go...

Inquisitor Ryan · Post by **Inquisitor Ryan** » 2006-11-09 05:38pm

You have that backwards. The xenophobia and paranoia come from the amount of shit they take.

That is what I meant, sometimes i'm not too clear. But now their Xenophobia and Paranoia cause as much trouble as not.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-11-09 05:41pm

Inquisitor Ryan wrote:
You have that backwards. The xenophobia and paranoia come from the amount of shit they take.
That is what I meant, sometimes i'm not too clear. But now their Xenophobia and Paranoia cause as much trouble as not.

Not really. Their xenophobia and paranoia are what keeps them going. It's important to remember that for five thousand years or so, aliens enslaved most of humanity (though most of those particular aliens were destroyed by the Emperor, Beloved By All, presumably Eldar were on this list) and the current set of aliens would do so again tomorrow if they could.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-11-09 05:49pm

It's such a vicious circle; aliens were enslaving or exterminating humans and the humans then enslaved or exterminated the aliens in return (ad infinitum).

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-11-09 06:01pm

Big Orange wrote:It's such a vicious circle; aliens were enslaving or exterminating humans and the humans then enslaved or exterminated the aliens in return (ad infinitum).

To be honest, the majority of races aren't bothered by the imperium until they're either actually in the Imperium's way, or attack. Entire civilisations can rise, exist and independantly fall alongside the Impeirum, even trading with them, with no problems.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2006-11-09 06:15pm

NecronLord wrote:It's important to remember that for five thousand years or so, aliens enslaved most of humanity (though most of those particular aliens were destroyed by the Emperor, Beloved By All, presumably Eldar were on this list) and the current set of aliens would do so again tomorrow if they could.

The Orks were also on this list. And with Orks this can range anywhere from being worked to death, treated like the Romans treated exotic animals, or as engineers, techies, and military advisors (slaves because they don't get paid and can't leave). The last one is extrapolation on my part, but considering the Orks can and do establish stable empires, trade with humans, and even hire themselves as mercenaries, I wouldn't consider it an impossibility.

NecronLord wrote:To be honest, the majority of races aren't bothered by the Imperium until they're either actually in the Imperium's way, or attack. Entire civilisations can rise, exist and independently fall alongside the Impeirum, even trading with them, with no problems.

There are a few Ork nations which are somewhat stable and are not bothered by the Imperium. I think they even do business with Rogue Traders, though obviously not sanctioned by the Imperium.

Inquisitor Ryan · Post by **Inquisitor Ryan** » 2006-11-09 06:46pm

NecronLord wrote:
Inquisitor Ryan wrote:
You have that backwards. The xenophobia and paranoia come from the amount of shit they take.
That is what I meant, sometimes i'm not too clear. But now their Xenophobia and Paranoia cause as much trouble as not.
Not really. Their xenophobia and paranoia are what keeps them going. It's important to remember that for five thousand years or so, aliens enslaved most of humanity (though most of those particular aliens were destroyed by the Emperor, Beloved By All, presumably Eldar were on this list) and the current set of aliens would do so again tomorrow if they could.

I was referring to the dealings with the Tau, sometimes the imperium is about as diplomatic as a brick to the face.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-11-10 03:58am

The Tau need a brick to the face. The United States (or whoever you care to name in the real world to be honest) would give them a brick to the face in the same position. They show up without any warning in warships, and then spend their time trying to smuggle illegal weapons into the Imperium.

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2006-11-11 10:44pm

Morilore wrote:The whole point of 40k is to explore different types of evil in ways that beat you over the head with shades of grey. Chaos is psychotic evil, the Imperium (including the Emperor himself) is end-justifies-the-means totalitarian evil, Eldar are racist and arrogant evil, Dark Eldar are sadistic-torturer-evil, Tau are messianic-utopian evil, Orkz are mindless-violence evil, Tyranids are soulless-force-of-nature evil, and C'Tan are intelligent-but-uncaring evil. If you want to try to figure out whether it's best to be eaten, slaughtered, tortured for aeons, turned insane, enslaved, or domesticated go ahead, but stop looking for a "good guy." You won't find one on the galactic scale.

Are there any other conceivable types of evil that haven't been covered yet by GW?

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2006-11-11 10:57pm

[quote "Battlehyme Republic"]Are there any other conceivable types of evil that haven't been covered yet by GW?[/quote]
Well, I would say moronic evil, but that is covered by the GW rules staff.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2006-11-12 01:01am

Dark Hellion wrote:[quote "Battlehyme Republic"]Are there any other conceivable types of evil that haven't been covered yet by GW?

Well, I would say moronic evil, but that is covered by the GW rules staff.

[/quote]

Clinical detached evil (Aliens with a superiority complex without the Eldar elements) dissecting and treating others as naught.
Self hating evil (A race that wants to destroy anything resembling itself then itself, while ensuring it suffers the most [self mutilation Vhong style for example]).
Utter nihilism/nihilistic evil (Such as Annihilus and the A-wave) , a group trying to destroy the universe and all in it / suicide cult.
Misguided evil ("what, the fleshy ones will enjoy being cyber-converted, its for their own good, and the universe will benefit from being under our glorious steel boots" ).

Though I like:
Computerized/beyond morals Nitzchean evil myself - AI army [Necrons {Not necrontyr}/Iron men without the C'tan with an actual research base that improves fast (Y'know like the Tau but with less Deus ex Machinas ).

[/list]

The possibilities are infinite...

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2006-11-12 02:10am

Aren't the Tau worlds right in the way of a Tyranid fleet? Doesn't that mean that the Tau are going the way of the Stouts?

BTW, the Stouts sound awesome as a race! I'm sorry they're gone now.

Morilore · Post by **Morilore** » 2006-11-12 02:47am

DEATH wrote:Clinical detached evil (Aliens with a superiority complex without the Eldar elements) dissecting and treating others as naught.

C'Tan.

Self hating evil (A race that wants to destroy anything resembling itself then itself, while ensuring it suffers the most [self mutilation Vhong style for example]).

That doesn't even make sense.

Utter nihilism/nihilistic evil (Such as Annihilus and the A-wave) , a group trying to destroy the universe and all in it / suicide cult.

Probably wrapped up somewhere between Nurgle and Tzeentch.

Misguided evil ("what, the fleshy ones will enjoy being cyber-converted, its for their own good, and the universe will benefit from being under our glorious steel boots" ).

That's definitely another way of saying Tau.

Though I like: Computerized/beyond morals Nitzchean evil myself - AI army [Necrons {Not necrontyr}/Iron men without the C'tan with an actual research base that improves fast (Y'know like the Tau but with less Deus ex Machinas ).

What would motivate this force?

Inquisitor Ryan · Post by **Inquisitor Ryan** » 2006-11-12 02:54am

The Stouts were lousy and .... well it always seemed half-baked to me. Like sisters of battle, it took some dirty minded preists recruiting them to save them from going the way of the stouts.

Inquisitor Ryan · Post by **Inquisitor Ryan** » 2006-11-12 02:56am

Quote:
Though I like: Computerized/beyond morals Nitzchean evil myself - AI army [Necrons {Not necrontyr}/Iron men without the C'tan with an actual research base that improves fast (Y'know like the Tau but with less Deus ex Machinas ).

What would motivate this force?
_________________

Boredom, war releives boredom nicely.

What about capatalistic evil??

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2006-11-12 05:03am

Inquisitor Ryan wrote:Boredom, war releives boredom nicely.

What about capatalistic evil??

Indeed, one wonders if the Deciever meddles with Imperium politics partially because the Great Ward takes a loooong time to get finished, and he needs to do something with his spare time.

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2006-11-12 05:47am

Ah, cool.

DEATH wrote:[*]Clinical detached evil (Aliens with a superiority complex without the Eldar elements) dissecting and treating others as naught.

Something like the Mi-Go from Call of Cthulhu, then. C'tan don't count since they're not an actual army, are they? Or would Necrons be this sort of evil by osmosis?

The problem with an evil capitalist race is that in WH40k you'd have to push it to incredible extremes. Most evil capitalist races come between uber dishonest Ferengis or your typical opportunist exploitative corporation.

Though I wonder, if war is supposed to be good for business (in some cases), how would it work in WH40k?

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2006-11-12 06:14am

There are those rich ass barons and rogue traders who can go "hey, autoflagellate them and use them as slaves!" for fun.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2006-11-12 08:32am

Morilore wrote:
DEATH wrote:Clinical detached evil (Aliens with a superiority complex without the Eldar elements) dissecting and treating others as naught.
C'Tan.

True, but we could have a race with the same attitude and a greater appetite for dissection (Perhaps a few offspring's of the ancient Necrontyr?).
Still the concept is similar but could be done with a race, not just a group's masters.

Self hating evil (A race that wants to destroy anything resembling itself then itself, while ensuring it suffers the most [self mutilation Vhong style for example]).
That doesn't even make sense.

Bring pain to all (sounds like someone who's been around Tzeentech to must, or a race that equate pain with pleasure).
They could be a strain of religous nutjobs with Slaanesh influences and bio-engineering in the past as suicide troops, terror troops or torturers (Or some such).

Utter nihilism/nihilistic evil (Such as Annihilus and the A-wave) , a group trying to destroy the universe and all in it / suicide cult.
Probably wrapped up somewhere between Nurgle and Tzeentch.

Er Nurgle and Khorn you mean.
An original race based on it could be made ambigous by believing that anyone killed by their hand will go to paradise and all who don't go to hell (With those suffering more pain at their hands first going to a better heaven).

Misguided evil ("what, the fleshy ones will enjoy being cyber-converted, its for their own good, and the universe will benefit from being under our glorious steel boots" ).
That's definitely another way of saying Tau.

They are self deluded or "greater good" evil. (Mainly greater good).
The funny thing is that they're relatively far less worse than Stalinist or Lenin era Russia/USSR.

Though I like: Computerized/beyond morals Nitzchean evil myself - AI army [Necrons {Not necrontyr}/Iron men without the C'tan with an actual research base that improves fast (Y'know like the Tau but with less Deus ex Machinas ).
What would motivate this force?

Destroy all Flesh, for the construction of the machine empire.
Ever seen Terminator?

Or "When Culture minds go Bad"tm.

An additional idea:
Unthinking evil (Though the Tyranids might arguably count if you ignore the infiltrators, magi, Hive mind, Norn Queens, Genestealers & Hive tyrants) -
Perhaps a Nano machine gone wrong, warping all it comes across into a hideous amalgam of flesh and metal (Y'know like Horus's ship with tongues as roofing).

Concerning capitalism - Air is a resource as is body mass and blood, not to mention your soul