SPOILERS - Matrix Reloaded - The Good, The Bad and the Ugly

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-05-15 11:57pm

The Good:

Its found a sense of humour.
The Keymaster is cool.
I saw the "revelations" coming - but they were cool anyhow.
The Architect. Say no more without spoiling.
Agents v1.1a
"The One" Beta0.6

The Bad:

More useless and irksome fan-service than most anime.
Zion is just a big feral/tribal nightclub.
Link pisses me off.

The Ugly:

CG fights that are quite obviously CG fights.
CG sequences that are quite obviously CG sequences.
Worst sequel set-up ever.

SPOILERS:

Wooo! Saw it coming. The Matrix really is everywhere. Thats right. The real world ain't so fucking real anymore you dumb-ass humans.

Sentinel tactics have gotten a bit nastier.

"Free"-Agent Smith rocks. "You know what the best thing about being me is?"

The Twins aren't as cool as they should have been.

The Oracle is the uber-bad-person (well actually she's a program). She created this version of the Matrix and is working with the Matrix to keep the human enslaved.

"This will be the sixth time we've destroyed Zion. We are becoming quite efficient at it."

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-16 12:00am

The Oracle is the uber-bad-person (well actually she's a program). She created this version of the Matrix and is working with the Matrix to keep the human enslaved.

Still questionable. The trailer for Revolutions has the Oracle giving Neo advice again, so she may still be good, just not in the way we had originally thought.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-05-16 12:53am

It's very interesting.. raises a lot of questions. How many Matrixs were there and is it a Matrix within a Matrix as well? So is everything being constantly manipulated by the machines to give humans the illusion of choice? And if in the last movie the humans do break free of the current Matrix, are they really free of THE Matrix?

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-05-16 01:04am

Trytostaydead wrote:It's very interesting.. raises a lot of questions. How many Matrixs were there and is it a Matrix within a Matrix as well? So is everything being constantly manipulated by the machines to give humans the illusion of choice? And if in the last movie the humans do break free of the current Matrix, are they really free of THE Matrix?

There has only ever been one Matrix but there has been many incarnations of it. Patches, rebuilds etc...

IMO Zion and the "Real-World" are just another level of the Matrix utilised to maintain control. Its possible that the "Real-Real-World" doesn't even exist and that the entirity of human history has taken place in the Matrix as part of a grand experiment a la "Hitch-Hikers Guide". More likely is that the Matrix has been redesigned to incorporate the destruction of Zion as a "reset" trigger so that humanity can not ever reach the point where they might create an AI within the Matrix itself. So, you have "The One" walking through the "reset" door every little while and resetting human civilsation in the "matrix" and the "real world" back to a preset time.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-05-16 01:29am

ive been saying for years that the only good way this series of movies can turn out is if the real world is part of the matrix. and best of all is, HUMANITY PAYS!!!

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-05-16 02:09am

Durran Korr wrote:
The Oracle is the uber-bad-person (well actually she's a program). She created this version of the Matrix and is working with the Matrix to keep the human enslaved.
Still questionable. The trailer for Revolutions has the Oracle giving Neo advice again, so she may still be good, just not in the way we had originally thought.

Or else there are two Oracles, one a program that gives bad advice... and the other one being a real person.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-16 08:37am

I doubt there is a Matrix within a Matrix; if there were, there would be more subtle hints; the editors might have started showing the Real World with the green tint that characterizes the Matrix.

DocMoriartty · Post by **DocMoriartty** » 2003-05-16 09:11am

1. I think the real world truly does exist. If it was another layer of the matrix then at least one scene (the machines digging) did not really exist. Why have a scene in the movie that litterally did not truly happen since there was not a single human being there to see it.

2. Don't assume too much about the Architect. There is no reason to assume that he was telling the truth.

2a. You cannot rebuild Zion with 15 people. Too small a genetic pool to end up with a quarter of a million. Also you cannot have the level of diversity you saw in Zion with that few people. This part had to be a lie by the Architect.

3. The One in my opinion is designed to reset the system. In my opinion though the problem is the Architect did not plan for one fact. Each iteration of the One (Neo being #6) has gotten progressively better than the past versions. This I think will throw all of the plans out of whack as he acts different than expected on ocassion. One example of how this is happening is the Architect saying Zion has been destroyed 5 times "and we are getting very good at it" was a direct quote from him. The machines improve with each iteration so why not the people.

4. Agent Smith is not part of the plan. His existance and his near murder of Neo in Zion would have completely screwed the Architects plan. I think Agent Smith has a very important role to play. He is a rogue program who has come to the conclusion that eventually all programs get replaced and deleted so he is fighting for his own survival. One method is by killing Neo and stopping the reset process that is to happen.

5. Here is one thought that came to mind for me. This is all still a lie to a degree. We all agree that the machines cannot be using humanity as a power source. It just doesnt work. We require more fuel than we ever give out in energy. We all can also agree that the Earth could not currently support the billions of people currently in the Matrix if they were set free.

So here is my though.

Who built the Matrix? Humanity did. It was built at some point far in the past when humanity did something to horribly damage the Earth. Realizing that it would take centuries or longer for the Earth to be repaired humanity came up with the Matrix as a way to keep humanity alive while the machines repaired the planet. Now either some humans were not plugged into the matrix (techs and such who were to supervise the machines) or were never plugged in (those who opposed the idea). Over the centuries those free of the Matrix forgot about the past and started to fight the machines thinking that the Machines were there to enslave humanity.

So the final ironic switch would be free humanity fighting the machines put in place by humanity to save it centuries before. The AI of the matrix is thus forced to fight the free humans so as to protect the Matrix and the humans plugged into the system.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-05-16 09:56am

DocMoriartty wrote:(SNIP)
5. Here is one thought that came to mind for me. This is all still a lie to a degree. We all agree that the machines cannot be using humanity as a power source. It just doesnt work. We require more fuel than we ever give out in energy. We all can also agree that the Earth could not currently support the billions of people currently in the Matrix if they were set free.

So here is my though.

Who built the Matrix? Humanity did. It was built at some point far in the past when humanity did something to horribly damage the Earth. Realizing that it would take centuries or longer for the Earth to be repaired humanity came up with the Matrix as a way to keep humanity alive while the machines repaired the planet. Now either some humans were not plugged into the matrix (techs and such who were to supervise the machines) or were never plugged in (those who opposed the idea). Over the centuries those free of the Matrix forgot about the past and started to fight the machines thinking that the Machines were there to enslave humanity.

So the final ironic switch would be free humanity fighting the machines put in place by humanity to save it centuries before. The AI of the matrix is thus forced to fight the free humans so as to protect the Matrix and the humans plugged into the system.

The scariest thing, Doc? You could have guessed the truth.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-05-16 12:02pm

Explain it to me again, what part of the movie makes you think that Real Life is also part of the Matrix?

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-05-16 12:08pm

the part where they say Zion and the One are part of a big plan, the part where neo starts using matrix magic outside the matrix, the part where they say everythings happened again and again (destruction of zion, etc) in the same ways. The part where the oracle, whos a program, is in on the entire thing, as well as the Zion parts, and is an Oracle because shes witnessed it happen..

the part where the architect says that everything neon knows is wrong (or something like that)

The Dude · Post by **The Dude** » 2003-05-16 03:18pm

DocMoriartty wrote:1. I think the real world truly does exist. If it was another layer of the matrix then at least one scene (the machines digging) did not really exist. Why have a scene in the movie that litterally did not truly happen since there was not a single human being there to see it.

Maybe - maybe not. Perhaps the Sentinels are independently-operating programs that believe they are real. We know that program-people continue to operate in the Matrix when no humans are around - agents , the Keymaker, the Archtect, the Oracle, the Merovingian, his werewolves, the vampire twins, etc, etc.

2a. You cannot rebuild Zion with 15 people. Too small a genetic pool to end up with a quarter of a million. Also you cannot have the level of diversity you saw in Zion with that few people. This part had to be a lie by the Architect.

Those 15 people can unplug more - they only need only a few dozen unrelated people to establish a viable gene pool. Presumably 15 is the minimum necessary to start an effective resistance. I was under the impression that Zion was populated primarily by the unplugged.

Curious question: If the 'real world' is another level of the Matrix, are new children real somewhere, or are they simply programs?

5. Here is one thought that came to mind for me. This is all still a lie to a degree. We all agree that the machines cannot be using humanity as a power source. It just doesnt work. We require more fuel than we ever give out in energy. <snip>

The machines must be working very, very hard to make sure that no one with even a rudimentary grasp of thermodynamics makes it to Zion alive.

The only thing more horrifying than the suggestion that human beings are a useful energy source is the fact that all of the characters and 99.99% of the audience bought it.

Apparently, the machines know how to make fancy anti-grav Sentinel robots and species-enslaving computers, can't produce even 1950s caliber nuclear reactors.

Nice analysis, BTW

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-16 03:24pm

The real world that we saw in the films is the real real world, I am convinced. If it were part of the Matrix it would simply be a matter of erasing Zion, unplugging its residents, and starting from scratch, rather than sending a conventional military force to do the work.

Enricko · Post by **Enricko** » 2003-05-16 03:27pm

Since I've seen the first movie, the use-humans-as-energy-source always seemed wrong even the Matrix Unverse. Why do the machines use humans if Zion use geothermal energy?

One of my pet theories is that AIs use humans like living computer to host themselves. That would explain why Agents always takeover someone body...

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-16 03:28pm

5. Here is one thought that came to mind for me. This is all still a lie to a degree. We all agree that the machines cannot be using humanity as a power source. It just doesnt work. We require more fuel than we ever give out in energy. We all can also agree that the Earth could not currently support the billions of people currently in the Matrix if they were set free.

This is science fiction. Of course the people work as energy sources in science fiction, because it says they do. Smile, suspend your perfectly justified disbelief and go with it. To borrow a quote from Mike, do not ever use the word "practical" with relevance to sci-fi.

Mr. Mister · Post by **Mr. Mister** » 2003-05-16 03:34pm

I regarded the entire scene with the architect as in the bad-ugly realm. I mean, up until then, there was some so-so writing, but that just went off the deepend. I mean, it's like the writers from Smallville ghost-wrote it: "Let's string together non-sensical crap that completely throws out all previous plot and feels like a big continuity gap even though there's nothing you can put your finger on, and then insist that such hackneyed writing is ok because 'it's Science Fiction, you can make stuff up'." Goddamn, I can think of at least four times the script - not the effects, not the acting, the actual script - broke my suspension of disbelief last night, and that ain't good:

1) The party scene in Zion, with my lovely thought, "Wow, it's time wasting filler!"
2) The unplugged human getting infected by Agent Smith: "So, the operator doesn't notice that?"
3) The twins, with my lovely thought, "So, who the hell programmed those, and what are they, and why did we never see them before?"
4) Everything onward from when the Architect started speaking: "What is this anti-climactic bullshit that would've been better off if written by Robert Jordan?".

It's not Highlander 2, it's just a weak attempt to be that.

The Dude · Post by **The Dude** » 2003-05-16 04:00pm

Durran Korr wrote:This is science fiction. Of course the people work as energy sources in science fiction, because it says they do. Smile, suspend your perfectly justified disbelief and go with it. To borrow a quote from Mike, do not ever use the word "practical" with relevance to sci-fi.

It's not as though we're simply talking about something that is merely implausible, like warp drive or lightsabers - we're talking about a categorical impossibility under the laws of thermodynamics.

Mutant Headcrab · Post by **Mutant Headcrab** » 2003-05-16 08:34pm

Mr. Mister wrote:3) The twins, with my lovely thought, "So, who the hell programmed those, and what are they, and why did we never see them before?"

I think they might be prototype agents of some kind. While their etheral forms let them move through everything and heals them, they don't seem as strong as current agents, hence why the machines would abandon them. Morpheus probally could have done a number on them, but they kept going etheral......

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-05-16 09:09pm

I love how they made the older models of the agents cool, and a challege, but while still being inferior to the Agents in 1 and 2. Sure the Ver. Werewolf was unkillable except for silver bullets, but once the humans found that out, its not hard to load that and take them out, they don't seem to be as fast as the most recent Agent versions, but they may be stronger. The Twins were highly manuverable, hard to hit(if you watch, they survived the SUV exsplosion), but they aren't perfect either, that one couldn't go eitheral when Trinity was shooting him because the door would of close, it's all or none ability. Plus they don't seem to be as strong as the current version of agents. The most recent Agents are the fastest overall, they are stong enough to overpower released humans, and they are fucking unstopable. Even if you by luck kill one they just load into the nearest body and they are refreshed and reloaded, or if you run, next time someone sees something unusual it causes a spike in "the system" as IIRC Smith refered to it as, they reload into that person. Even when the apparently destroyed one, he somehow still came back, but as a rogue program. None of the pervious Agents can win against that.