Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

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Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by WhiteLion » 2019-09-15 12:33am

In your opinion, what about the bc-304 of Stargate as it would go against the Enterprise-D and a Star Destroyer?

In the optimal configuration the BC-304 is so equipped:

1) the shields powered by a ZPM, are able to resist whatever is thrown at them, even at a coronal mass explosion of a real star. (source: TV series and https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Shield#Asgard)
2) a cloaking device of the Ancients that no ship in the series has ever been able to detect.
3) armed with:
- Mark 9 nuclear bombs of 10 gigatons each, able to vaporize everything (including stargates) within 100 miles (source: Colonel Cameron Mitchell's direct statement in the series, and https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki / Mark_IX)
- Horizon heads, which have a total destructive power of 60 gigatons each, are multiple warheads made up of 6 mark9 warheads and 2 owl missiles. Using a warhead against replicants, it literally vaporized an entire continent (I used the same words) (source: https: //stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Horizon)
It also features plasma beam weapons, Railguns, various missiles.

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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2019-09-15 08:20am

Even if the Big E's shields stop the Asgard beaming system, just putting one of the Horizon warheads in close proximity should be fatal to the Big E, given that it's armed with megaton-range torpedoes and is threatened by similar weapons. The BC-304 is also shown to be very agile, more so than the Big-E anyway. The railguns won't do jack-shit, but the beam weapons are shown to be some of the most powerful anti-ship weapons in Stargate, so I'd have to hand this match to the BC-304.

The ISD is another kettle of fish. If the ISD shields stop the beaming system then I suspect it will turn into a hit-and-run game, with the 304 using it's (ludicrously fast) hyperdrive and/or cloaking device to nibble away at the ISD - assuming, of course, that the ISD is aware of them in advance. If not, then I expect a volley of plasma beams fired into the ISD's hanger bay, main reactor, main sublight engines or command tower would be a very effective alpha strike.

If the ISD shields can't stop the Asgard beaming system, then it's game over. Even the apparently ridiculously sturdy SW materials used in an ISD will be of little use to a gigaton-range explosion going off inside the hull.

Also I think you're underestimating the yields on the Horizon platform (which was six warheads and four decoys, FYI) - they caused a lot more damage than a ten-gigaton blast indicates, I recall an estimate somewhere that they were nearer the half-teraton range but can't recall exactly where I read that.
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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by Themightytom » 2019-09-15 09:58pm

First, you stacked this horribly lopsided, with the 304 at the very top of her possible game.

The Enterprise D has transporter technology of it's own, it's likely it wouldn't be able to penetrate the 304's shields when they are up, but the 304 probably can't pull any fast ones with beaming, such as trying to land a warhead, especially by Voyager/ E-E era but even by the end of season 7 federation transporters were very fast. It's conceivable in my opinion that if a 304 tried to beam a warhead onto the Enterprise, they could send it back, for whatever damage that is worth.

Likewise the Enterprise has warp drive, and can move faster in real space then the 304. Unless both sides are acting out of character, I think the Enterprise can hang out long enough for diplomacy.


I think I agree about the beam weapons being instant kills for the Enterprise D, but I'm not actually sure what their effective range is, the 304s seem to close to very close ranges. I don't think that conversely photon torpedoes would do anything to a ZPM reinforced Asgard shield set up. The Enterprise might pick up the 304, we have no idea what it really does, and the Enterprise does have some experience searching for Klingon and Romulan ships. Nearly everything but the rail guns would destroy the Enterprise D by accident, and I don't think the airforce is going to wipe out a ship with children in it.

Against a Star Destroyer, I think the Empire would likely be aggressive and a battle is more likely. The 304 isn't going to have a chance of taking a star Destroyer over, they might be able to disable it without destroying it, but you nerfed everything so high that a Star Destroyer could at best swarm it with tie fighters and make an escape when they realize they can't beat it's shields. It took a squadron of Ori ships a ridiculously long time in Ark of Truth to wear down the 304 shields, the only time a 304 has really been totaled since they got them was when the Wraith got some as well.

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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by WhiteLion » 2019-09-15 11:15pm

I'm just basing myself on canon data, since only one mark9 bomb is 10 gigaton then the Horizon bomb should have 60 gigaton (because it has 6 mark9 warheads). But it is capable of vaporising an entire continent (I reported the source at the beginning of the topic).

In any case, I personally think it unthinkable that the Enterprise and the Star Destroyer hold bombs on the Gigaton scale, the Star Trek and Star Wars weapons are in the megaton range, the Stargate Weapons instead in the Gigaton Range, even if they can't teleport bombs in ships would still be a huge power gap.

The Star Destroyer has a very strong armor, but still it remains armed and armored against megaton weapons, I don't know how long it can withstand against gigaton weapons.

We also consider that TIE fighters have limited firepower compared to fighters that can be deployed from the BC-304, because they can be armed with 10-gigaton mark9 warheads.

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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2019-09-16 01:24pm

I think you're seriously underestimating the Star Destroyer there. "Armed and armoured against megaton-range weapons?" Yeah, no.

You also need to define the actual scenario somewhat. Where are they meeting? Are one or both sides expecting a battle? Are both sides aware of the abilities/limitations of the other? Are either side constrained by how far they can move around (are they limited to sublight, or perhaps FTL but only within a (for instance) 10 light-year radius)? Is one side attacking or defending a planet? How much notice do they have before combat begins?

I do agree that the ISD swarming the 304 with TIE's is unlikely to work. The ISD carries all of 72, waaaay less than than the numbers a single Hive Ship can deploy, and the 304's railguns are shown to be very effective in the anti-fighter role.

Themightytom: You make a good point about the E-E probably going the diplomacy route. This is what I mean by "defining the scenario." If the E-E and the 304 encounter each other over a planet and get talking before weapons are armed, then I'd give them good odds that Picard and co could calm things down by talking. If the two sides are (arbitrarily) at war then I think the E-E is going to get flattened. Like I said in my first post, even if they can't beam warheads straight through the shields then proximity detonations will be lethal - nuclear and thermonuclear weapons are stated to be a serious threat to the E-Nil in "Balance of Terror" and "Patterns of Force" and while the E-E is a lot more advanced than the E-Nil, it's not so much better that it coudl shrug off near-hits from gigaton-range warheads.
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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by Themightytom » 2019-09-16 02:16pm

Just to clarify, I proposed TIE swarm only to screen the Destroyer so it could escape. There's no reason to believe the 304 could track them in hyperspace for any reason since SW seems to use different hyperspace than Stargate. I'm not even sure we have seen FTL sensors used in SG, so maybe the Picard Maneuver could make a come back, even if it's just as good a chance that the 304 will just fire on both images instead of choosing just one.

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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2019-09-16 02:37pm

Ah I see. Rather ruthless but fitting with Imperial tactics. The 304's do have FTL sensors, they got them from the Asgard I believe. In "The Return" the Daedalus detects the Tria at great distance, they are also said to have subspace sensors and communication systems. Whether those systems would be able to track SW hyperdrives is an open question, though IIRC the usual rule for these scenarios is that technology works as advertised in their own franchise.
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Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2019-09-16 03:41pm

SG vs ST - I would go with the SG ship. It is a heavily armed warship that has been seriously jacked up. The E-E comes from a period where Starfleet was becoming more militant in their ship designs but they are still not serious warships. More importantly, they are not shown or used to dealing with that kind of firepower.

The Horizon warhead - That was a one shot weapon used against the Replicators and was never deployed anywhere else. Even the weapon itself was poorly developed when it was used because of the rushed nature of the use. This would not be standard armament for the Tau'ri battle cruisers.
The warhead itself was so big that it needed to be launched from the belly, it does not look like it would ever be feasible as part of their standard missile barrage attacks and not used against a ship.

A full out 'standard' missile salvo manage to destroy a Wraith Hive Ship but it literally too everything the Daedalus had to pull that off in a surprise launch. An ISD has shields and PD which will mitigate the missile approach from a BC304. Furthermore, the standard approach for 304s is to fire their missiles singularly or at best, small volleys. Only once have they EVER actually used it in a massive barrage and it was specifically said that doing this was not advised.

If the 304 wants to 'go all out' and launch everything in an Alpha strike then it would likely kill an ISD or severely damage.

That said, the chances of a 304 doing that are rare, especially for a first encounter.

Worse, if you are throwing an ISD into universe where SW / ST actually exists then the obvious factor of recognition comes in. I do not think a 304 is going to open fire on a ship named ENTERPRISE without a serious provocation.

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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by Batman » 2019-09-16 04:15pm

Excuse me, where is the Ancient cloaking device from? The only 304 cloak I remember is the one Daniel improvised when he was a Prior.
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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2019-09-16 04:20pm

Yeah that was a special system only attached to the Odyssey. Just like only the Apollo (as far as we know) had the "bomb bay" for the Horizon weapon system. Standard load out is (I believe) 16 VLS missile cells, 32 railgun turrets and (post-ASgard upgrades) 4 plasma beam weapons.

That being said, the SGC were working on adapting a phase cloak from Merlin's database - Carter used it to shield an entire village from Ori orbital fire and (in the alternate reality in "The Road Not Taken") phase-out the entire Earth (at the remarkably low power of 800 GW), so the idea is there and given the high power outputs from naquada generators and ZPM's I'm surprised it wasn't used more extensively.

The Atlantis crew also managed to jerry-rig the entire city to have a cloaking device adapted from a puddle jumper, so the possibility is definitely there for it to be standard equipment, it just isn't for some reason.
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Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by Batman » 2019-09-16 04:46pm

The Odyssey cloak was also one they after Daniel's dePriorisation no longer had so this is a bit of a cheat. Horizon at least is something the SGC came up with themselves and they obviously managed to retrofit it on Apollo so I'd consider that fair game. They never did with the Atlantis cloak, possibly because they didn't like the 'shields OR cloak, pick one' nature of the system.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2019-09-16 05:00pm

"Shields or cloak" seems to be a fairly common concept in SF I find.

Also, I can't recall if they stated they'd removed the cloak from the Odyssey, but at any rate it's a one-off item from just one episode so I agree it can be discounted. I do recall Jack questioning Daniel about them being cloaked and Daniel saying something like "Yeah, having a ZPM helps." It's been a while since I watched those episodes though.
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Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by Batman » 2019-09-16 05:31pm

They rather explicitly no longer have the cloak by the end of the episode. O'Neill asks Daniel how he did it and Daniel is basically 'no clue' strongly indicating the cloak doesn't work without a Prior. The 'Having a ZPM helps' comment if memory serves is from an earlier conversation when Jack wants to know how the ship got a cloak to begin with. The exchange went something like this-
Daniel: 'We're cloaked.'
Jack: 'What? How?'
Daniel: 'Having a ZPM helps'
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2019-09-16 05:40pm

The fact that it isn't used again lends credence to that. Fair enough then, I'm happy to concede that point. Makes me wonder what went wrong with Carter's phase-cloak research.
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Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by Elheru Aran » 2019-09-16 05:43pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2019-09-16 05:40pm
The fact that it isn't used again lends credence to that. Fair enough then, I'm happy to concede that point. Makes me wonder what went wrong with Carter's phase-cloak research.
Simple answer-- even by the end of SG, Earth still didn't understand all the Ancient tech out there, and she probably just wasn't able to work out all the details as exactly as she needed to.

Unless this is stuff from Atlantis, because I've never really gotten much past season one of Atlantis. Finished SG1, but that was always the superior show.
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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by Batman » 2019-09-16 06:02pm

Nope. The phase cloak is Mitchell-era SG-1. I don't think the thing ever popped up in SGA.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by WhiteLion » 2019-09-17 01:01am

the cloaking device is that of the ancients (Alterani) in SG Atlantis.

I am not underestimating neither the enterprise nor the Star Destroyer. The weapons of the Star Destroyer and the enterprise do not have gigatons of power but megatons, and the Star Wars shields are not very effective. In the movies the Super Star Destroyer Executor is shot down by the poor fire of the rebel army (which had no gigaton power), and in Episode 9 the Dreadnought is shot down by a single bomber (which had no gigaton weapons), both ships were higher than an ISD.

Instead the shields of the BC-304 with the ZPM have enormous power (https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Asgard_shield): They resist the prolonged bombardment of an entire Wraith fleet, to the fire of several Ori mother ships (whose weapons are gigaton not megaton like in SW and ST), to a coronal mass explosion of a star (here they really wanted to exaggerate). I have never seen the Enterprise or an ISD sustain this damage and get out of it unscathed, in fact usually the fire of megaton weapons is enough to bring down the shields.
I quote a quote: "A single ZPM, almost at full power, could provide enough energy to withstand the constant bombardment of the Wraith Hive ships for days before exhaustion." (SGA: "Rising", "The Siege, Part 3")
If you resist the fire of gigaton weapons for so long that hopes would have megaton weapons? It's a kind of upper shield.

For weapons I believe that the shields of ST and SG cannot sustain the fire of Asgard rays and mark9 bombs, the asgard rays destroy hive ships and Ori ships in 1-3 shots (from what has been observed in the series), they are gigaton weapons, it would not be necessary to teleport the nuclear warheads on board, the simple power gap would be too much for the shields, it is enough to see in the series and the films of ST and SW how they lose power or collapse under the fire of megaton and not gigaton weapons.

I do not know if the teleportation would work on ST, they have countermeasures against teleportation visible in the episodes, but SW is different, I have never seen similar countermeasures in any film or episode, I have never even heard them mentioned in a speech, so if not they would have the matter closed, a single warhead would be enough teleported in the fuel tank or in the armory and the Star Destroyer would be destroyed, as well as any ship of SW.

But instead in my opinion a ship against which the BC-304 could do nothing would be voyager. At the end of his journey he reports very powerful technologies:
Transphasic torpedoes: They cross the matter, therefore shields and armor, so the shields of the BC-304 would be useless.
Chronitronic torpedoes: better than transphasics, because they travel through time and not matter.
Torpedoes with Omega particle: if I remember correctly, a torpedo could destroy a planet.

against these weapons, in my opinion, the BC-304 could do nothing, both the technology and the energy surplus are too different.

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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by NecronLord » 2019-09-17 05:13am

I'm not encouraged by the chance of hitting the Enterprise-E (or D) with a Horizon.

I think that the Horizon is not an optimal loadout for ship to ship combat, of course they're not standard equipment, but they're also not particularly quick, they take a substantial time to deorbit during which they're slow and there is no indication the horizon module is either shielded or constructed of trinium; so as such we can assume it's made of modern earth metals. It should be easily intercepted by the likes of the Enterprise; it could even be held in place by a tractor beam.

We can therefore dismiss the Horizon as a ship-to-ship weapon; we've never seen it used as one and it has no obvious means of being used as one. If anything carrying a Horizon into a ship to ship engagement may be an incredible risk, naquadah is volatile in certain states after all. A modest (by the standards of nuclear weapons) hit to the bomb bay might just explode the ship.

Cloaking devices made by the Ancients are never said to be superior to any other cloaking devices and there's no reason to consider them undetectable; more significantly, like Star Trek cloaking devices on which they're based, all Stargate cloaking devices render the ship unable to attack while cloaked.

What we're left with is firepower, manouverability, etc.

The Coronal Mass Ejection event is one of the more questionable things in Stargate's canon, I'd be uncomfortable using that alone instead of the performance of the ship (and ZPM upgraded) ships throughout the series.

A BC-304 with a ZPM isn't outright superior in battle to a dozen hive-ships, nor significantly superior to a flotilla of Ori motherships. Their firepower can't be orders of magnitude higher than other Stargate ships even with ZPMs installed.

Stargate's firepower is wildly variant depending on what's being done, much like Star Wars and Star Trek there are many imponderables; without being prepared to narrow down what sources we're using for the Star Destroyer we have little idea how it stacks up either, the Enterprise being the only one with really consistent scaling of firepower; though as we've seen with recent Trek outings the

What we can say is that the Enterprise has the advantage of range on its weapons and their relative precision; the Star Destroyer certainly in the number of its weapons and its support craft compliment.



If I were in command of a Star Destroyer attacking a 304 and had full knowledge of the scenario I would be looking to engage at range and use my support craft to destroy it. We've seen some very poor performances from BC-304s vs fighter swarms, be they Wraith Darts or the mysterious alien ships from Daedalus Variations (in fairness that one was Ronon controlling the CIWS), and we know that Asgard beams have no ability to hit snubfighters from the same sources; they remain reliant on railguns in every engagement against snubfighters; TIE fighters are as fast in linear speed as the fighters in SG-Atlantis (Puddle Jumpers clock about 1000 Gs, it's Death Gliders in SG-1 that clock 32 kilo-Gs) and 302s are unshielded, and a 304 carries only a modest number.

Once the TIEs have eliminated the fighter screen of the target ship I'd send out some bombers to actually destroy it; your taste of firepower calculations may affect whether this is optimistic.


With the Enterprise I'd withdraw beyond their tactical range and engage with photon torpedos; add warp strafing and other approaches to taste.

I do agree that the ISD swarming the 304 with TIE's is unlikely to work. The ISD carries all of 72, waaaay less than than the numbers a single Hive Ship can deploy, and the 304's railguns are shown to be very effective in the anti-fighter role.
I disagree? I don't think I've seen a 304 destory more than a dozen fighters in one battle. Their immediate deployment of 302s whenever available indicates that these are not a reliable counter to fighters, as does the reliance on snubfighters as a major battle arm by every race except the Asgard and the Ancients.
Ah I see. Rather ruthless but fitting with Imperial tactics. The 304's do have FTL sensors, they got them from the Asgard I believe. In "The Return" the Daedalus detects the Tria at great distance, they are also said to have subspace sensors and communication systems. Whether those systems would be able to track SW hyperdrives is an open question, though IIRC the usual rule for these scenarios is that technology works as advertised in their own franchise.
The sensors used in The Return are explicitly sublight, they are unable to recognize the Triia due to "McKAY: Well, the sensors are having a hard time determining what it is, probably due to the Doppler effect."

There'd be no appreciable doppler effect if this was an FTL sensor. Stargate does however have FTL sensors, the SGC had such things as early as season 2 in the form of subspace sensors, and the goa'uld had them on numerous occasions.
I do not think a 304 is going to open fire on a ship named ENTERPRISE without a serious provocation.
To be fair even if they had no knowledge of Star Trek they probably still would wonder about the USS Enterprise with a ship number far higher than their own.
The weapons of the Star Destroyer and the enterprise do not have gigatons of power but megatons
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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by WhiteLion » 2019-09-17 07:39am

NecronLord wrote:
2019-09-17 05:13am
I'm not encouraged by the chance of hitting the Enterprise-E (or D) with a Horizon.
I agree, but if you think about it, the BC-304 does not need to use the Horizon, launching a complete 16-missile save mark9 would double the power of a Horizon warhead, could vaporize 2 continents (16 mark9 are 160 gigatoni, with 1 Horizon they vaporized an entire continent, I quote: "The six explosions enhanced by the resulting Naquadria multi-gigaton vaporized an entire continent on the Asuras making the Horizon the most powerful weapon ever deployed safely by the Tau'ri. "(SGA:" First strike "), the shields of the enterprise d can support a maximum of 47.3 GW (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Enter ... CC-1701-D).
NecronLord wrote:
2019-09-17 05:13am
Cloaking devices made by the Ancients are never said to be superior to any other cloaking devices and there's no reason to consider them undetectable; more significantly, like Star Trek cloaking devices on which they're based, all Stargate cloaking devices render the ship unable to attack while cloaked.
We cannot say that it is superior to ST's cloaking devices, but while ST's cloaking devices are regularly detected, the Ancient ones have not been detected even once, in my opinion this says a lot, we are also talking about a technology developed that they are of the gods in all respects that have always achieved top technologies in their universe.
You are right in saying that the BC-304 cannot shoot from concealment, but this does not make it tactically useless in battle, the BC-304 could get invisible in the blind spot of the enterprise, get out of the concealment and fire with a save of mark9 and the Asgard plasma beams (calculate the power of the weapons, the shields of the enterprise would not hold), it would be a very fast action, the enterprise would not have time to react, and the BC-304 could still make itself invisible again and repeat the action several times.
NecronLord wrote:
2019-09-17 05:13am
The Coronal Mass Ejection event is one of the more questionable things in Stargate's canon, I'd be uncomfortable using that alone instead of the performance of the ship (and ZPM upgraded) ships throughout the series.

A BC-304 with a ZPM isn't outright superior in battle to a dozen hive-ships, nor significantly superior to a flotilla of Ori motherships. Their firepower can't be orders of magnitude higher than other Stargate ships even with ZPMs installed.
What do you mean? The BC-304 without ZPM, and I stress without ZPM, supported a bombardment of a squadron of Ori ships in the "Unending" and "The Ark of Truth" episodes, likewise endured several times the fire of multiple Wraith ships.

With the ZPM assembled it can withstand anything (source: "With a ZPM or another comparable power source, the shield can with stand virtually anything. Even without a ZPM, the Asgard shields offer protection from Drone weapons". (SGA: "Be All My Sins Remember'd ")

As evidence of this in the episode: SG1: "Window of Opportunity", he claimed an explosion of coronal mass of a star, this goes beyond the attacks of a fleet of spaceships.
It is not an invented fact, being in an episode of the series is canon, it is the real capabilities of the ship's shield with the ZPM, we cannot deny what we see in a canonical episode.

In other words about the power of the ZPM shield: "A single ZPM, almost at full power, could provide enough power to withstand the constant bombardment of the Wraith Hive ships for days before exhaustion." (SGA: "Rising", "The Siege, Part 3")

It is canon, it is not an invention, it is a technology made by a race of Gods, I would not have expected anything less.
NecronLord wrote:
2019-09-17 05:13am
The weapons of the Star Destroyer and the enterprise do not have gigatons of power but megatons
Show your working?
source:
- TNG Technical Manual
- https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Enter ... CC-1701-D)

The Enterprise-D has 10 4.73 GW shield generators
The phaser power is 5.1 MW
A photon torpedo contains 1.5 kg of antimatter, the conversion into energy is about 50 megatons, indicated in the series as 25 isotons.
In Voyager they were strengthened to 51 isotons, and in the terica it was affirmed that it could reach 80 isotones, but we remain always in the scale of the megatons.

As for the weapons of the Star Destroyer as it is no longer ICS canon, the power of 200 gigatons per shot is no longer recognized as a canon. The damage that turbolasers do in canon films, which are not attributable to gigatons of power, remain as a practical reference point for the power of weapons.

I tried to get an idea as relevant as possible to events that actually happened in official episodes and film canon, and to precise data found on reliable sources.

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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by NecronLord » 2019-09-17 08:34am

The Enterprise-D has 10 4.73 GW shield generators
The phaser power is 5.1 MW
A photon torpedo contains 1.5 kg of antimatter, the conversion into energy is about 50 megatons, indicated in the series as 25 isotons.
In Voyager they were strengthened to 51 isotons, and in the terica it was affirmed that it could reach 80 isotones, but we remain always in the scale of the megatons.

As for the weapons of the Star Destroyer as it is no longer ICS canon, the power of 200 gigatons per shot is no longer recognized as a canon. The damage that turbolasers do in canon films, which are not attributable to gigatons of power, remain as a practical reference point for the power of weapons.
I get the feeling from your posts that you've seen a lot of stuff about people crowing about the old Lucas canon now being thrown out. There's teraton-type fireball graphics in the new Disney canon too.

For instance.

Image

The Onager class siege destroyer. Notably this one does use Kyber crystals but its weapon isn't instant death to a star destroyer so they're on the same order of magnitude. By comparison here's Star Destroyers.

Image

While that's not as impressive visually as the Onager (and rightly not) it's still far more than megatons.

And for what it's worth the the Force Awakens ICS (yes there's a new one) also confirms that First Order Star Destroyers can "Designed for orbital assaults and slugging matches with enemy capital ships, these turbolasers can overload shields, punch through thick armour, and reduce planetary surfaces to molten slag."

That's exactly the same kind of description of BDZ as was used to argue for gigatons before the AotC ICS was published.


Star Trek's technical manuals are not canon and newer sources show far greater firepower than the TMs suggested, e.g. Star Trek Discovery. Some of the sources for Star Trek are relatively puny, some are far higher, but certainly we can't say 'megatons' with any certainty, and especially not as an upper limit.
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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2019-09-17 12:22pm

Merlin Cloak - This is specific to the Odyssey. None of the other BC304s have had a cloaking device and it specifically required Daniel / Merlin to install with the help of a ZPM.

This makes this less of a 304 vs than it is Odyssey at peak power vs. anything else.

The Oydessy has a gigantic weakness for the 'stealth' approach because the Asgard core is clearly a giant beacon. The Ori tracked it across galaxies. The Federation have a fair chance of being able to detect the Oydessey and they are well versed in Phase technology.

Star Wars might fare worse off at breaking the cloak but the real issue is that the Oydessey cannot retaliate when cloaked. The transition from cloak to shield could be long enough that an enemy could exploit the opening and destroy her.
At best, the cloak results in a stand-off where the Fed ship warps away, the ISD jumps away and the 304 cannot do jack about it.

Horizon - GTFO, that was a one-shot weapon that was literally rushed out of the door in desperation. The thing was bulky, slow and required a special launch from a surprise strike to work. The PD of an ISD should be more than able to shoot something like that down which would obliterate the Odyssey in the explosion if it goes off.

This would not be a standard armament for a 304 and using it against a ship is not going to be 'standard'.
Did you see one being used against the Super-Hive ?

As it stands, it is a planetary bombardment weapon at best which takes up a substantial amount of resources considering the actual one used was only partially complete. If the entire SGC cannot build one of them properly, it really does not seem likely they are going to make enough to equip them as standard.

Railguns - ST and SW are not going to be impressed or suffer much impact from these. ST might fare a little worse off on the point defence front for their torpedoes... if the Railguns can actually intercept and damage a ST torpedo. We have never actually seen a ST torpedo be stopped.

Missiles - SW is no stranger to missiles or torps. Their ships are designed with weapons to specifically intercept them and an ISD has more than a few.
BC304s routinely launch their missiles in single shots. Only the Daedalus has ever used the swarm launch method and it was specifically stated doing so is not common and potentially dangerous.
ISDs may not be the most suited to point defence duties but one missile salvos should be more than manageable.

Fighters - ST has 'fighters' with shields so they have an advantage on that front and phasers have been shown to be varying in accuracy.
At peak, ST has an edge when it comes to the fighter supremacy although, phasers on their main ships should be more than capable of engaging multiple F304s in rapid succession if you go with the often used Conundrum performance
The same aspect could allow a Fed ship to shoot down incoming missiles.
Worf specifically stated that shooting down the missile in Generations would take seconds to do and that was tracking a missile from the planet to the sun.

F304s are going to contribute little to a fight in either case. They do not have the weapons or firepower to hurt a Fed ship or SW ship. While the ST and SW have equivalents or counters. The only advantage F304s have against TIES is having missiles. Once those are expended then it becomes a fighter dogfight.
If you bring TIE Bombers into the mix then the F304s are completely outgunned even with missiles.
This avoids the obvious issue of what happens if you pick an ISD that has some of the more advanced TIE platforms that have shields. Best case, F304s vs TIE is a rough parity with a favour towards SW.

Plasma Beams - The use of Plasma Beams has routinely been done at close range. The beams have a really slow propagation speed and travel time to the target. A phaser or turbolaser is going to beat them for speed and quantity rapidly.

Oydessy vs Ori

A ZPM powered 304 can put out lots of blasts and it took out the Ori ship. Later, 2 Ori ships engage and one gets destroyed in multiple blasts.
I do find it interesting that when engaging the Ori ship - The report was 'Their shield is fluctuating' - Not Down and repeated blasts indicate that the shields are still up but the weapons are somehow going through.
You can either go with the brute-force answer or 'pierce' mechanics into the mix for that.

The Plasma beams require substantial amounts of power that limits the refire rate and they have been dodged by Wraith Cruisers. Targets that are more agile or maintain range can potentially avoid them.

I would also point out that the Plasma Beam weapons have been repeatedly been shown to be actually underwhelming in their damage. They cause things to blow up with repeated strikes but when they start encountering armour they seem to drastically reduce their effect to the point of doing nothing against the Super-Hive and disabling the weapons of the alien ship in Daedalus variations.

The ambush of a Asuran warship required multiple blasts to what was an unshielded and unprepared ship and when the attack on the Asuran homeworld occurred, neither 304 is actually seen using their beam weapons.
Essentially, I get the impression the 304s are not able to fully support the Beam weapons and they take a toll on the ships when used. As a result, they are good for engaging singular targets in a alpha strike capacity but over a prolonged period of time the power draw might be unsustainable.
It is also possible the real power of the beams is coming from a piercing mechanic and / or over-charging brute force that overwhelms the target shields ability to compensate.

However, when that targets has thick armour, the beam weapons are not effective. This would also be consistent with the Hammond being engaged by 3 motherships and the fight not ending in seconds because the Lucian Alliance somehow pulled another 'shield upgrade' out of their ass.
The last time motherships were upgraded, the Tolans and the Asgard lost their edge. This would lead me to believe that Anubis used his Ancient knowledge to counter the 'mechanic' being used to one-shot their ships. The Lucian Alliance apparently figured out a similar trick against the Plasma Beams in SGU.

When it comes to ST, they are more than familiar with frequency based weapons so countering that kind of trick should be relatively easy for them.
When it comes to SW, they don't really go for the frequency shit and more importantly, they armour their ships.


I would give an ISD more than a fair chance of being able to hurt and trade shots with a 304 even if it is the Oydessey.
A ST ship could challenge the Oydessey but the exchange favours the Oydessey.

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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by Sky Captain » 2019-09-17 03:31pm

One thing favoring 304 is high maneuverability, in some episodes it is shown to fly nearly like a fighter when attacking larger enemy ships. Stardestroyers are never shown on screen to maneuver like that. It is plausible that a 304 when attacking Stardestroyer could keep out of main weapons and attack from rear and bottom. Then it depends on how effective Asgaard plasma beams are against Star Wars armor. Missiles would have a good chance too, it is often depicted on screen rebel fighters strafing Stardestroyers so the Imperial point defences aren't very effective and missiles especialy if launched in swarms from close range likely could get through.
Star Wars fighters against Asgaard shield powered by ZPM likely couldn't do much. If that shield can sustain prolonged attack from multiple capital warships then fighters are just a nuisance. IIRC we never see a ZPM powered shield being brought down by fighters. Fighters only have been a threat when shield is run at low power or already under severe strain from sustained bombardment.

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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by NecronLord » 2019-09-17 03:43pm

Offhand, TIEs are linearly three times as fast as darts and puddle jumpers, and certainly very manouverable; if they struggle to hit Darts, they've no real chance against "Go faster" Lucas' fighters. Don't rely on looks, Jumpers (and thus Darts) cap out at 1,000 Gs, TIEs upward of 3,000.

We see the Nakai, a race from literally across the universe with no cultural ties to the Milky Way, regard fighters as worth investing in too, even when engaging a ship with ZPM order-of-magnitude power systems and no vulnerable smallcraft of its own to attack. The arguments that behavior of other actors in SG are irrational (e.g. the goa'uld needing to dominate planetary populations, wraith needing culling craft) don't apply to the Nakai, who appear to have developed their technology entirely on their own.

Yet they still use fighters to attack large single craft.

There's obviously some logical reason so many species choose to invest in fighters, and sure enough we get told why in SGU.

As to smallcraft vs shields, as mentioned in the directors' commentary to stargate universe episodes featuring the drones attacking Destiny (a ship whose power output is on the same order of magnitude as a ZPM given that it is capable of dialling a 9 chevron stargate address, the creators have told us multiple times that even three ZPMs do not have that level of power; although damaged Destiny is supposedly running at something like 40% of its capacity so greater than one ZPM) their intention is that SG shields are not wholly impervious barriers to weapons attacks. A percentage of energy gets through. This even made it into the last episode of Universe, (and indeed everything Stargate :( ) here:
SGU 2:20 wrote: YOUNG
So, you're saying we dial up the shields?
RUSH
Well, no, not exactly.
ELI
It's more like we…tune them.
BRODY
When we're in battle, the shields continuously cycle through various frequencies in the hopes of matching energy-based attacks. The closer the match, the easier the attack is to absorb, and consequently the less damage we take.
VOLKER
It's a guessing game. Like Rock, Paper, Scissors.
RUSH
In the case of the drones, we don't have to guess.
ELI
(sarcastic)
Thanks to someone's brilliant idea to bring one on board.
RUSH
The energy signature of their weapons is a fairly limited range. We can target specifically for it.
ELI
We just need to override Destiny's normal, randomized shield pattern.
VOLKER
And paper covers rock. Every time.
YOUNG
If all, uh, Destiny has to do is find the right match, why does it bother cycling in the first place?
BRODY
Because matching and maintaining a single, specific pattern makes it vulnerable to all other forms of attack.
VOLKER
Right, like if they throw scissors, and we're uh, guessing, uh, rock… Not to push the analogy too far.
Smallcraft are dangerous because if they mount enough attacks a percentage will get through, the shields, when adjusted for one frequency, do not cover another.
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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by Batman » 2019-09-17 05:12pm

Wars fighters are both offensively and defensively in a completely different league than SG ones. We've seen both Wraith Darts and Death Gliders brought down by 'small arms fire' (SAWs/M4s) and MANPADS and 302s by Death Glider weapons the performance of which against inert targets (i.e. the ground) isn't all that impressive. Wars fighter weapons are KT range.
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Re: Stargate BC-304 VS Enterprise-E and Star Destroyer

Post by WhiteLion » 2019-09-18 01:22am

@NecronLord:
Onagher, Eclipse, Sovrerign, Death Star are super weapons, they are not standard turbolasers, in the topic I refer to the standard turbolasers mounted on ships, not to exceed me single.

The comic you posted is certainly an important proof of the magnitude of the explosion, can I ask you the name of the work and if it is a canon work or if it belongs to the Legend? Because that kind of damage disagrees with what you see in the Star Wars canon movies.

I am not aware of the new ICS, is it canonical?

Due to the power of the Star Trek weapons, 1.5 kg of antimatter is a precise figure, although it is not possible to force more power out of the equation. ST is a series that gives a certain realism, it is not warhammer 40k in which a spear destroys a planet by canon but without the slightest connection with the feasibility of the thing.

@Predator 490:
In the fights you mentioned the BC-304 had no ZPM to upgrade shield and weapons, I created the topic just assuming that the BC-304 has the most technology it has achieved in the series.
The ZPM-boosted shields have almost unlimited energy and can sustain every kind of damage, even a coronal mass explosion of a star (which is extremely more powerful than any weapon we are evaluating), in my previous posts I have linked many links with references to specific episodes in this regard.
The same goes for plasma weapons, the exceptional results obtained against the Ori and Wraith ships were not obtained with the ZPM, if they had mounted the ZPM the weapon would have had exponentially higher power, just like the shield.

I agree on the phaser speed compared to the Asgard ray, but not on turbolasers, visually they are slower.

For the cloaking device: take a good look at the episodes of the series, it is the same one mounted on the jumpers, it takes about 2-3 seconds to activate and deactivate, it is enough time to shoot and hide again, the reaction time of the opposing ship should be instant. Only the phasers have that speed, but the reaction time is too short for the reflexes of the tactical officer, who still remains human, and must detect the target's position, enter the coordinates, and shoot. Also consider that the 304 would appear in a blind spot or otherwise unfavorable to the opposing ship, would have a huge tactical advantage, and would hit with ZPM-powered Asgard beams and with mark9 10 gigatons missiles each (can launch up to 16 at the same time, are 160 gigatons only the missiles, the horizon has vaporized a continent with 6 mark9 missiles, a similar attack in my opinion would destroy both the Enterprise and the Star Destroyer.)

But given the power of the shield in my opinion the only way that the Star Destroyer would destroy the bc-304 would be to make a series of FTL collisions by sacrificing TIE Fighters or other similar ships.
In that case I think it would have both the speed of the attack and the power to bring that shield to its knees, the energy would be enormous.

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