Three Galactic Empires

[Q99]

You could get pretty rich as a collaborator... but highly dependent on just how much you can offer. If you were willing to kick them tips, but didn't have many tips, then you don't get much at all. If you go full Imperial and join intelligence or similar, you could get pretty well-off, but you'd also be sent against Rebel agents, would have to sell out people to their death, and so on.

And how does that effect the vast majority of us who don't own patent rights to these things?

I think the idea is, we'll be able to use any knowledge we have. Odds are, we'll each have *something* to sell to a company.

Another reason to go for Trantor. They have robots and technology far beyond ours, but we can sell them all kinds of personal computing concepts and devices they don't have. And as they aren't likely to bomb us to take them, they'll pay.

Note, they do *not* have robots. Old Earth had a problem with complacency and over dependence on Robots, so the 0th law robots made sure that wouldn't happen again and hover in the shadows to make sure that's the case. So no robots, and don't bet on introducing them either.

Lesse, power on the industrial scale is very plentiful, though they haven't miniaturized their power plants (which'd allow stuff like personal shields and flight). Energy, food, trade, all are in abundance. Living space is plentiful. Travel within the empire doesn't seem too hard. Though I don't know the effective price level, masses of ships come and go from Trantor every day.

[Purple]

You could get pretty rich as a collaborator... but highly dependent on just how much you can offer. If you were willing to kick them tips, but didn't have many tips, then you don't get much at all. If you go full Imperial and join intelligence or similar, you could get pretty well-off, but you'd also be sent against Rebel agents, would have to sell out people to their death, and so on.

Indeed. But I always imagined the GA as being something like the Soviet Union when it came to hiring informants. Like if I can get by in life by selling other people out for minor offenses, maybe getting the people I don't like or that are in my way condemned as traitors that sounds reasonably nifty. Certainly beats having to work for a living or having one shot to sell ideas to aliens before they just get everything they could ever need from the rich and powerful.

[Zor]

Note, they do *not* have robots. Old Earth had a problem with complacency and over dependence on Robots, so the 0th law robots made sure that wouldn't happen again and hover in the shadows to make sure that's the case. So no robots, and don't bet on introducing them either.

I remember that there are robots in the Empire, just nothing comparable to those which operated on positronic brains.

Zor

[Tribble]

Well, none of our tech is positronic, and we do surpass Trantor in some areas. For example, Trantor does not have anything remotely resembling the Internet. And our computers are far more miniaturized and have a much greater storage capacity on average than theirs. Do they have anything approaching the capacity of a smartphone or tablet? Do they have things like LED lights? Obviously a lot of this is because the stuff wasn't in their current form when the books were written, but in-universe some of our tech could put Earth on the map, provided Daniel doesn't see it as a threat.

[NecronLord]

And how does that effect the vast majority of us who don't own patent rights to these things?

We're still more experienced, culturally, if not you in particular, in such things as systems analysis than anyone in the Empire.

Unlike your 'become an ISB informant' plan, you're not likely to be taken out and shot when the rebels win.

[Purple]

And how does that effect the vast majority of us who don't own patent rights to these things?

We're still more experienced, culturally, if not you in particular, in such things as systems analysis than anyone in the Empire.

Unlike your 'become an ISB informant' plan, you're not likely to be taken out and shot when the rebels win.

Wait what? These guys don't know systems analysis? Do they not know data mining, large data processing and data warehousing too? Either way, set me up for Trantor! I just became a rare commodity.

[Welf]

Well if you can CHOOSE....
By the end of the series, The Goldenbaum Dynasty had been deeply changed...

Most of the "Nobles" who were largely responsible for much of the corruption and more Draconian policies, had been either killed or kicked out of power by Goldenbaum.

The source of much of the conflict and vicious measures of the older Empire were due in large part to the war which had FINALLY ended once and for all.

Goldenbaum had "freed" a large amount of the Serfs, and stated that those worlds of the FPA would remain "free" despite now being a part of his Empire.

The terrorist group (ironically known as 'Terrarists) had been utterly destroyed (they had been responsible for the assassination of several "good guys" and much trout;le)

Basically, by the end of series you get the impression that those factors that started the war, (corruption, incompetent leaders, war for the sake of war) had largely been done away with.

The first ruler of the Goldenbaum dynasty did introduce ethnic cleansing and eugenics after he abolished the republic. His latter successors didn't bother to continue that and onl let the empire degrade into the backward feudal system that it was at the beginning of the story. It was Reinhart von Lohengrimm (the pretty blond guy) who reformed the Empire.

At what speed though? I might get ahead faster and better in an empire that's racist against everyone else than I would in an egalitarian one. And being an adult white male I fit ideally into the choice demographic of their, well everyone.

I'm sorry to destroy your dreams, but even in that scenario you are better of in a egalitarian society. Both materially and in status.
It is not correct that you will earn more in a pro-men and pro-white society. The maximum you can earn is the value that you produce. No employer will pay you more, at least not long term. How close you can come to that upper limit depends on your negotiation power. And your negotiation power is bigger in an egalitarian society, since institutions like unions will help you bundle your demands.
Classic historic example is the Antebellum US south. The wealth extracted from the black didn't went to the lower class whites, but only to the upper class whites. And it also depressed wages for the lower class whites, since the slave owners had cheaper slave labour. Not paying higher wages was indeed the main purpose of having slaves.

And your status will be higher, too. In an egalitarian society you are by definition not part of the lower class, because there is none. In a racist empire you would be a 4th or 5th grade person. Still not at the bottom, but a lot of people above you who look down on you and treat you like shit.

[Purple]

And your status will be higher, too. In an egalitarian society you are by definition not part of the lower class, because there is none. In a racist empire you would be a 4th or 5th grade person. Still not at the bottom, but a lot of people above you who look down on you and treat you like shit.

Yea but like that's just the way things are anyway. Unless you are born rich, win the lottery or are one of the 1% of super intelligent capable and lucky individuals who strike it rich by revolutionizing science or something you're stuck as a worker bee with the rich and famous looking down on you. And when you grow old and feeble from working your whole life so that someone else can be rich you'll be too weak to enjoy what little time you have left before you die. So like what?

[NecronLord]

And how does that effect the vast majority of us who don't own patent rights to these things?

We're still more experienced, culturally, if not you in particular, in such things as systems analysis than anyone in the Empire.

Unlike your 'become an ISB informant' plan, you're not likely to be taken out and shot when the rebels win.

Wait what? These guys don't know systems analysis? Do they not know data mining, large data processing and data warehousing too? Either way, set me up for Trantor! I just became a rare commodity.

Quite. Their computing tech is limited by Asimov's imagination during his lifetime. They have tablet computers capable of performing complex calculations and such, but they do not have the details of modern approaches to computing that we have.

[Purple]

Do we have this for sure? I mean data analysis is not exactly the kind of stuff that would not be mentioned unless it became plot relevant. And this means that we can't discount it existing in the universe unless we have proof of that.

[NecronLord]

Happily, being high concept sci-fi all about scientists and their work, The Foundation series is about data analysis. The principal actor of the setting is Dr. Hari Seldon, who deals with a form of data analysis used to predict spatio-political outcomes involving large groups called Psychohistory. He uses this science to predict the fall of the Galactic Empire, and founds the Foundation to establish a Second Galactic Empire, and he basically does it in his head with calculators. The later books show when his models break down. No computer models or anything beyond devices to make the arithmetic easier are used. It's covered in some detail.

Hell, if we join early enough in the timeline, the Earthican computer revolution might even allow psychohistorians to prevent the Empire's fall.

[Elheru Aran]

Those books *were* written in an era where you could write about space pirates using slide rules for astronautical calculations with a straight face, after all...



(OK, perhaps so not so much of a straight face, but come on)

[Q99]

The later written foundation prequels- written in the 80s/early 90s- did quietly retcon in somewhat higher tech.

Ironically, while initially created so much earlier, the life-inside-the-empire stuff is relatively new.

[Boeing 757]

Another thing that may affect Earth's integration with either of the three choices is culture shock. Aside from that one planet in Blind Alley the Trantorian Galactic Empire does not harbor any extraterrestrial intelligence. Modern Earth cultures would have to confront the reality that there are thousands if not millions of alien lifeforms co-inhabiting with humans within Palpatine's Empire. The humans in the Trantorian Empire are akin to us, meaning that we could visit their worlds and they ours easier than we visiting, say either Cato Neimodia or Geonosis. I can't comment about the Legend of Galactic Hero's Empire, since I have never watched any of the episodes.

[Boeing 757]

Happily, being high concept sci-fi all about scientists and their work, The Foundation series is about data analysis. The principal actor of the setting is Dr. Hari Seldon, who deals with a form of data analysis used to predict spatio-political outcomes involving large groups called Psychohistory. He uses this science to predict the fall of the Galactic Empire, and founds the Foundation to establish a Second Galactic Empire, and he basically does it in his head with calculators. The later books show when his models break down. No computer models or anything beyond devices to make the arithmetic easier are used. It's covered in some detail.

Hell, if we join early enough in the timeline, the Earthican computer revolution might even allow psychohistorians to prevent the Empire's fall.

Two of the Foundation novels considered prequels to the original Foundation books (which ironically were written much later) basically retcon that by including advanced computers which they employed heavily to develop psychohistory. There were some references also to artificial intelligence being used in numerous segments of the Trantorian infrastructure.

[Q99]

Another thing that may affect Earth's integration with either of the three choices is culture shock. Aside from that one planet in Blind Alley the Trantorian Galactic Empire does not harbor any extraterrestrial intelligence. Modern Earth cultures would have to confront the reality that there are thousands if not millions of alien lifeforms co-inhabiting with humans within Palpatine's Empire. The humans in the Trantorian Empire are akin to us, meaning that we could visit their worlds and they ours easier than we visiting, say either Cato Neimodia or Geonosis. I can't comment about the Legend of Galactic Hero's Empire, since I have never watched any of the episodes.

On the flip side, while most SW aliens are *physically* different, mentally they tend to work a lot like us. Some differences, but almost always quite relatable, and ones used to dealing with humans too.


I don't think the aliens are nearly as much a problem as the humans in white armor.

[Simon_Jester]

Another reason to go for Trantor. They have robots and technology far beyond ours, but we can sell them all kinds of personal computing concepts and devices they don't have. And as they aren't likely to bomb us to take them, they'll pay.

The Trantorian Empire does not have Asimov's robots (if they did, they would have little need for Earthly computers). Indeed, in the backstory it's clear that robotics was deliberately suppressed from Galactic society well before the creation of the Trantorian Empire, precisely so that humanity would continue to grow and thrive without having its development stunted by robots.

It's a different type of competence, that's what I am saying. Being a good commander or a dedicated soldier or better yet a loyal informant (my personal preference) does require skills. But it's not the kind of skills you need a lifetime of living in a society thousands of years ahead of your own technologically to pick up. A person from earth would be completely at a loss when faced with the things that people from any of those settings take for granted. Like imagine trying to become something as simple as a taxi driver. "What do you mean you can't fly a hovercar?! My 13 year old son can do it! Get of my office!" Thus we would be completely lost at performing any job that isn't already performed by robots or some similar form of automation for manual labor leaving the only other alternative a lifetime in the low ranks of the military or as an informant to the regime when it takes over earth.

What makes you think you can be an effective informant or soldier in a society whose technology and culture you don't understand? Soldiers operate all sorts of technology, and informants have to have useful access to people the state actually cares about having someone to inform on. Since Palpatine's Empire considers you to be a random person from an irrelevant backwater who is ignorant of basic technological principles, you haven't got any contacts to leverage. The only people you can inform on are your fellow Earthlings, and frankly the Imperial Security Bureau has no reason to care what they think as long as Earth pays its taxes.

[Purple]

What makes you think you can be an effective informant or soldier in a society whose technology and culture you don't understand?

I wouldn't. I figured I could get a job on occupied earth oppressing fellow earth humans. I held no pretense at the idea that it would suck, because it would. But frankly that's actually better than what I could expect in most SF crossovers due to the issue of culture shock as I explained.

[Simon_Jester]

Trouble is, what makes you think you'd be good at being a secret police informant? Do you have the social skills to convince an intelligence officer you're good at ferreting out people's secrets? Do you have the understanding of human nature it takes to provide reasonably accurate reports about what other people are doing and what they think? Do you have the aptitude to avoid being outed as a spy for the secret police, at which point your value as an informant is virtually nil?

For all you know, that job will be taken many times over by other people who are better at it than you.

[Purple]

Trouble is, what makes you think you'd be good at being a secret police informant? Do you have the social skills to convince an intelligence officer you're good at ferreting out people's secrets? Do you have the understanding of human nature it takes to provide reasonably accurate reports about what other people are doing and what they think? Do you have the aptitude to avoid being outed as a spy for the secret police, at which point your value as an informant is virtually nil?

For all you know, that job will be taken many times over by other people who are better at it than you.

I just figured the GA being evil it would be like Stalins USSR in the 40's and you wouldn't need to do much or even be accurate. You report someone, that someone is tortured, confesses, you get a bonus. You keep doing that until people figure you out and report you. You get tortured, confess and they get a bonus.

[NecronLord]

Except of course in the Star Wars setting, the torture is first off done using "the mind probe" and only then, other techniques.

And then Agent Kallus wants to know why you're shopping people the mind probe confirms are innocent. And then you're in the Spice Mines of Kessel.

[Purple]

I do not recall any of that from the movies. Is it an old EU thing or a new one?

[Q99]

Let's also remember that the Galactic Empire has a shelf life. After 20 years, it starts losing huge parts to the rebellion. Who aren't the most happy with informants.

[Purple]

Let's also remember that the Galactic Empire has a shelf life. After 20 years, it starts losing huge parts to the rebellion. Who aren't the most happy with informants.

Assuming a Soviet style system that's way past my shelf life as an informant. So I don't mind.

[Tribble]

Let's also remember that the Galactic Empire has a shelf life. After 20 years, it starts losing huge parts to the rebellion. Who aren't the most happy with informants.

Unless you somehow get a message to Palpatine about Luke, Leia, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Yoda etc. Wiping them out would almost certainly guarantee that Palpatine stays in power. Oh, and you could also do things like point out about the weakness to the Death Star, and where the Rebels are located / likely to hide. Somehow I don't think that having Palpatine remain in power indefinitely would be a good thing...



Assuming that our knowledge of the Star Wars universe via the movies remained intact of course.