Which curse is the most unforgivable

[The Romulan Republic]

Imperio - Has far worse implications and potential uses than the others.

Complete removal of free will of the target to make them do whatever you want is horrific.

Easiest example of this would be Buffy when the Trio go from being comical to instant disgust with the use of mind control to 'rape' a woman who would otherwise have said no. Same goes for Stargate Atlantis Irresistable with Lucius using drugs to turn women into his sex slaves.

Why are you putting the word "rape" in quotes (other than the fact that, as I recall, the magic wore off before they could actually go through with it). That was unambiguously non-consensual.

[The Romulan Republic]

A gun is an inamimate tool, a spell is... a bit different since the power behind it comes from something within the wizard/witch. But HP is a weird universe anyway. We have proof that souls exist there (see Horcruxes), and can be affected by magic (again, Horcruxes), so it's not a far step to figuring out that souls can be affected by the sort of magic being used by the caster and their mindset. Which raises the interesting question of how this would affect, say, a utter sociopath...

As for the Oblivate charm: The magic world made that bed. They can either attempt to carry on, or come clean. They don't really have any alternative.

Secrecy probably made a lot of sense to wizards and witches due to Muggle witch hunts. Sure, wizards had ways to protect themselves from that, but not everyone would have known them and their was no guarantee that they'd always win. But the Statute of Secrecy has left the world in a very unpleasant position.

Sadly, I think any revelation of the magical world would have to be a gradual thing. Do it suddenly, and civilization is thrown into chaos by the revelation of entire countries existing secretly inside other nations (plus much scientific knowledge being rendered obsolete).

[Batman]

Cruciatus. Killing people is sometimes necessary, and the Killing Curse seems to do so relatively quickly and painlessly. Imperius can actually be used for good-sure, there a lot of potential for abuse, as is with the Killing Curse, but that's people abusing the tools. The problem isn't with the tools but the people using them. The one and only purpose of the Cruciatus is to hurt the victim. That it may at times work to incapacitate in a nonlethal manner is irrelevant, so can a plethora of other spells. What that spell was designed to do was make people suffer. It's a torture spell, nothing more.

[PREDATOR490]

Imperio - Has far worse implications and potential uses than the others.

Complete removal of free will of the target to make them do whatever you want is horrific.

Easiest example of this would be Buffy when the Trio go from being comical to instant disgust with the use of mind control to 'rape' a woman who would otherwise have said no. Same goes for Stargate Atlantis Irresistable with Lucius using drugs to turn women into his sex slaves.

Why are you putting the word "rape" in quotes (other than the fact that, as I recall, the magic wore off before they could actually go through with it). That was unambiguously non-consensual.

The fact you mentioning going through with it is kinda the point. The word rape does not properly capture what they were doing in my opinion since we have two elements of rape being committed. One being the magic mind rape and the physical attempt. They did not go through with the physical attempt because the magic wore off but the Trio did go through with the mental mind control. Which is worse is up to personal opinion.

Was Willow raping Tara by using magic to alter her memory ?

[The Romulan Republic]

Imperio - Has far worse implications and potential uses than the others.

Complete removal of free will of the target to make them do whatever you want is horrific.

Easiest example of this would be Buffy when the Trio go from being comical to instant disgust with the use of mind control to 'rape' a woman who would otherwise have said no. Same goes for Stargate Atlantis Irresistable with Lucius using drugs to turn women into his sex slaves.

Why are you putting the word "rape" in quotes (other than the fact that, as I recall, the magic wore off before they could actually go through with it). That was unambiguously non-consensual.

The fact you mentioning going through with it is kinda the point. The word rape does not properly capture what they were doing in my opinion since we have two elements of rape being committed. One being the magic mind rape and the physical attempt. They did not go through with the physical attempt because the magic wore off but the Trio did go through with the mental mind control. Which is worse is up to personal opinion.

Was Willow raping Tara by using magic to alter her memory ?

Is altering a mind in and of itself rape? No. The word rape has specific sexual connotations. Altering a mind for the purpose of making someone have sex with you? Fuck yes that's rape.

I'd lean toward saying what Willow did to Tara was rape, yes.

[The Romulan Republic]

TRR: The Wizarding World would probably be obliterated in short order, since Rowling has stated that in a fight between a wizard with a wand and a muggle with a shotgun, the muggle will win every time.

I read this but I don't know if I've ever seen a source.

Also, I'd like to think that not all Muggles would opt for genocide. Though the paranoia caused by the existence of secret magical countries that can alter peoples' appearances and control and see into their minds would most likely cause most every Muggle nation to become a police state (aided and abetted by the abilities of any wizard turncoats).

Harry Potter magic is dangerous in ways besides direct combat. It is horrifyingly effective for infiltration, mind-control, and espionage. Its a terrorist/insurgent's dream come true.

It is curious why Avada Kedavra is considered unforgivable, to the point where using it on another being in any circumstance (Auror's in the Wizarding War notwithstanding) gets you a lifetime in Azkaban (which is a horrific place in it's own right). We know there are other fatal curses (Bellatrix kills Sirius with something, Molly doesn't just kill Bellatrix but shatters her, and so on), and using those does not bring "automatic life sentence," so why is Avada so "special"?

Because it is pretty much always lethal, can't be magically blocked except by someone sacrificing themselves, and requires great power to use. Also there's Beatrix's claim that you have to mean it or whatever it was that she said.

Also, you're going off the movie version. I don't think the books ever specify what Molly used on Beatrix or even that it was lethal, though its implied, and Sirius was hit with something non-lethal and fell through the veil, killing him, while in the films he was hit with the killing curse.

FOr that matter, given how many muggle-born and half-blood wizards and witch's exist, why has the idea of using Muggle weapons never occurred to them? Especially if you could charm them. A Refilling charm cast on the magazine, a silencing charm on the barrel, a disillusionment charm on the whole weapon, the possibilities are endless.

As I recall their are legal issues with magically altering Muggle stuff. That might be even more true if its to manufacture weapons. Also, the wizarding world generally seems to be ignorant of/look down on Muggles.

Still, it does have a history of using bows and swords/daggers, and Gryfindore's sword is a magical sword, so I'm not sure why they haven't figured this out.

[Eternal_Freedom]

TRR: The Wizarding World would probably be obliterated in short order, since Rowling has stated that in a fight between a wizard with a wand and a muggle with a shotgun, the muggle will win every time.

I read this but I don't know if I've ever seen a source.

Also, I'd like to think that not all Muggles would opt for genocide. Though the paranoia caused by the existence of secret magical countries that can alter peoples' appearances and control and see into their minds would most likely cause most every Muggle nation to become a police state (aided and abetted by the abilities of any wizard turncoats).

Harry Potter magic is dangerous in ways besides direct combat. It is horrifyingly effective for infiltration, mind-control, and espionage. Its a terrorist/insurgent's dream come true.

There was a plot point in a (rather good) fanfic that featured a brutal wizarding government mind-controlling some Russians into using nukes on the Chinese city containing their Ministry of Magic. That's...deeply scary. Think how scary it would be to, say, the US military, or the Russians. The idea that wizards could appear suddenly, compel you to act, remove your memories of acting and then vanish without trace? The Secret Service would all be having multiple heart attacks at that one. Maybe not all muggles will opt for genocide. But all it takes is a few (justifiably) scared people to start killing wizards, and the wizards retaliate, and suddenly everything's gone to hell.

It is curious why Avada Kedavra is considered unforgivable, to the point where using it on another being in any circumstance (Auror's in the Wizarding War notwithstanding) gets you a lifetime in Azkaban (which is a horrific place in it's own right). We know there are other fatal curses (Bellatrix kills Sirius with something, Molly doesn't just kill Bellatrix but shatters her, and so on), and using those does not bring "automatic life sentence," so why is Avada so "special"?

Because it is pretty much always lethal, can't be magically blocked except by someone sacrificing themselves, and requires great power to use. Also there's Beatrix's claim that you have to mean it or whatever it was that she said.

Also, you're going off the movie version. I don't think the books ever specify what Molly used on Beatrix or even that it was lethal, though its implied, and Sirius was hit with something non-lethal and fell through the veil, killing him, while in the films he was hit with the killing curse.

True. At any rate, Molly definitively killed Bellatrix in the book, but apparently not with a killing curse. SO there are plenty of fatal spells, it seems deeply strange that the Avada alone is so horribly illegal. I know it's unblockable and nigh-impossible but it seems very strange to me.

FOr that matter, given how many muggle-born and half-blood wizards and witch's exist, why has the idea of using Muggle weapons never occurred to them? Especially if you could charm them. A Refilling charm cast on the magazine, a silencing charm on the barrel, a disillusionment charm on the whole weapon, the possibilities are endless.

As I recall their are legal issues with magically altering Muggle stuff. That might be even more true if its to manufacture weapons. Also, the wizarding world generally seems to be ignorant of/look down on Muggles.

Still, it does have a history of using bows and swords/daggers, and Gryfindore's sword is a magical sword, so I'm not sure why they haven't figured this out.

The pure-blood wizards are hopelessly ignorant. But what about Hermione? Dean? Seamus? Three muggle-borns or half-bloods and we aren't even counting Harry yet. Surely one of them would have heard of firearms and thought "hey, this sounds like a much more effective method." Hell, the first time I watched Deathly Hallows Part Two I was thinking "All they need to hold that wooden bridge is a .50 cal at one end and those Death Eaters are toast."

As for the legal aspects, well, they apparently have no way of tracking magic used on muggle objects at a distance, witness Sirius's bike and Arthur's Ford Anglia. Given how clueless most wizards are about muggles it wouldn't be difficult to hide or conceal it. And now I have a mental image of Harry, int he graveyard in book four, saying "Accio shotgun" and turning the newly-risen Voldemort into chunky salsa.

[The Romulan Republic]

Harry probably couldn't have used a gun in Book Four because there's no indication that he has any experience or training with firearms whatsoever, and this probably is true for most wizards. Even Muggleborns will likely not have learned to use guns by the time they go off to Hogwarts and their life becomes dominated by the Wizarding World. Also, a child might just assume magic is more powerful. Remember, Harry and his friends are school children. We can't expect them to think tactically.

However, it occurs to me that their must be some Muggles who are aware of magic and have firearms training. Like cops and soldiers who happen to have a Muggleborn relative. Or squibs who live in the Muggle world and entered those professions.

If I was the Minister for Magic, I would try to recruit some retired Muggle cops/soldiers into my forces as snipers. Harry Potter duelling tends to take place at pretty short ranges and their weren't a lot of Death Eaters. Also, they were all dependent on Voldemort (witness how fast their campaign fell apart without him). A sniper or two on the roof of Hogwarts, for example, would have done wonders. Although it should be noted that wizards seem to have somewhat greater resistance to physical injury, at least some of the time.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Oh I know Harry probably wouldn't have known how to use a shotgun, but it's an amusing mental image.

[The Romulan Republic]

Also, even if he shot Voldemort, I very much doubt he would be either able or willing to gun down all the other Death Eaters before one of them got him.

[SpottedKitty]

FOr that matter, given how many muggle-born and half-blood wizards and witch's exist, why has the idea of using Muggle weapons never occurred to them? Especially if you could charm them. A Refilling charm cast on the magazine, a silencing charm on the barrel, a disillusionment charm on the whole weapon, the possibilities are endless.

Something I read in another forum a few years ago noted that anyone fully into the Wizarding World (maybe we can call it a Masquerade, as in Heinlein's Howard Families?) is so used to having a spell for every purpose it just doesn't occur to them that there might be a non-magical way of doing something. IIRC the example used was tooth-brushing — everyone uses a variety of simple, straightforward spells to the point that going to a mundane dentist is almost literally unthinkable. In other words, it's a mental blind spot.

[Tribble]

Avada Kedavra - all it does is kill the person instantly, if it manages to hit them. While using it for murder certainly qualifies for a life sentence, IMO it's not the worst. In the Harry Potter universe there are far worse things to do to a person than simply killing them.

Imperius curse - takes control over a person. The degree of control varies upon the person being affected - some are under total control, some are able to resist and increase their resistance over time, while Harry Potter was able to completely throw the curse off after some training. Now that I think about it, perhaps it would be a good idea if the Defence against the Dark Arts education included resistance training against Imperio (remember that (fake) Mad Eye wasn't supposed to be teaching them about it, let alone using it on them). While not everyone would be able to throw the spell off entirely I would imagine that having the entire community trained to resist its effects would reduce its effectiveness.

Crucio- tortures the person as long as the torturer wants, and it is literally possible to torture the victim into an irreversible insanity. While Imperio can be thrown off with sufficient willpower/training, there doesn't appear to be any way for the victim to counter crucio if they've been hit with a full-powered one. And even if there is technically some way of countering the curse the victim isn't going to be able to do it because he/she is convulsing on the floor in complete agony.

IMO the Cruciatus is the most evil of the three. The entire purpose of it is to simply cause as much pain and suffering as possible, and in order for the curse to even work properly the caster has to have a deep desire to cause the victim pain and enjoy the victim's suffering. And the victims can be literally tortured into an incurable insanity. I think I'd rather be hit by the Killing Curse than go through what Neville's parents did.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, Crucio is obviously pretty despicable. But at the same time, the pain, while terrible, is somewhat less permanent than death (barring being tortured to the point of going insane anyway). You can recover from pain. You can live on from pain. Not so for death.

[Tribble]

Yeah, Crucio is obviously pretty despicable. But at the same time, the pain, while terrible, is somewhat less permanent than death (barring being tortured to the point of going insane anyway). You can recover from pain. You can live on from pain. Not so for death.

It's true that death is permanent. What's also true is that it's going to happen to everyone eventually, even in the Harry Potter universe. If I had to choose between being controlled under the Imperius curse and doing horrible things to other people, being tortured into an irreversible insanity or being killed on the spot, I think I'd choose the ladder because for me the first two are in some ways worse than dying.

[Simon_Jester]

TRR: The Wizarding World would probably be obliterated in short order, since Rowling has stated that in a fight between a wizard with a wand and a muggle with a shotgun, the muggle will win every time.

Mm. In my honest opinion, I think the wizard would have a pretty good chance, but only by virtue of being able to blatantly cheat and render themselves undetectable. And it'd work a lot better against small groups than large.

Against organized armies, the small numbers of wizards that actually exist would be pretty well out of luck; magical Britain has the population of a small to medium-sized town as best as I can recall.

[This helps establish a sense of scale. Lucius Malfoy is that rich bastard who owns the local newspaper and bank, and his level of schemes and intellect match to that, not to someone whose plots routinely determine the fate of millions. Likewise, the Death Eaters were a group of a few dozen guys who manage to successfully intimidate a few tens of thousands of people by indiscriminate murders, which is, again, about what you'd expect from a successful gang led by a powerful and cunning person.]

It is curious why Avada Kedavra is considered unforgivable, to the point where using it on another being in any circumstance (Auror's in the Wizarding War notwithstanding) gets you a lifetime in Azkaban (which is a horrific place in it's own right). We know there are other fatal curses (Bellatrix kills Sirius with something, Molly doesn't just kill Bellatrix but shatters her, and so on), and using those does not bring "automatic life sentence," so why is Avada so "special"?

Bellatrix killed Sirius by knocking him into a deadly portal of some kind. But yes, there are plenty of lethal hexes that cut, burn, blow stuff up.

Avada Kedavra seems to be a unique form of killing magic that revolves around actively wanting someone dead, specifically willing their death, in a way that can harm souls and that is extremely dangerous to bystanders. Used as a weapon it proves that you had killing intent; it might be justified in open battle if the battle itself is justified, but that's not the same thing at all.

FOr that matter, given how many muggle-born and half-blood wizards and witch's exist, why has the idea of using Muggle weapons never occurred to them? Especially if you could charm them. A Refilling charm cast on the magazine, a silencing charm on the barrel, a disillusionment charm on the whole weapon, the possibilities are endless.

Part of the problem is that these Muggle weapons would probably be vulnerable to counter-magic. I'm not sure if there exist magical shields that can stop bullets, but it seems fairly likely to me. I have no doubt that various spells can cause a gun to stop functioning. Of course, it'd still provide an interesting tactical option, but I'm not sure it's hugely decisive. Especially in modern Britain where guns are somewhat less available.

True. At any rate, Molly definitively killed Bellatrix in the book, but apparently not with a killing curse. SO there are plenty of fatal spells, it seems deeply strange that the Avada alone is so horribly illegal. I know it's unblockable and nigh-impossible but it seems very strange to me.

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if other lethal Dark magic is illegal- but not as illegal because it usually leaves curable wounds.

The pure-blood wizards are hopelessly ignorant. But what about Hermione? Dean? Seamus? Three muggle-borns or half-bloods and we aren't even counting Harry yet. Surely one of them would have heard of firearms and thought "hey, this sounds like a much more effective method." Hell, the first time I watched Deathly Hallows Part Two I was thinking "All they need to hold that wooden bridge is a .50 cal at one end and those Death Eaters are toast."

Again, while it may appear that wizards lack effective defense against bullets, I wouldn't assume that under the circumstances.

[LaCroix]

In HPverse, these spells are mostly 'unforgiveable' due the state of mind of the caster than the fact that they inflict harm.

The Crucio is a torture spell, but it doesn't work on magical power but on the intent of the caster to cause pain. So to use it effectively, you must be a real sadist who really enjoys to torture people. Which means someone who used it is someone you REALLY need to put behind bars and out of reach of a wand, forever. Harry did cast it once, but even in a "you killed my Godfather" rage, couldn't do more than give Bellatrix a really nasty shock.He just didn't have it in him to revel in causing pain. Bellatrix, otoh, is THE expert on it, sick puppy she is.

Same for the killing curse - it's not just a magical unstoppable superkill bullet. If it even grazes you, you are dead. You can still deflect it by objects or stepping aside, so no big deal. Why is it unforgiveable? As fake Moody (the polyjouiced Crouch) told the children - they all could cast it at him all day, and he wouldn't get as much as a nosebleed. Intent matters - to cast this spell and make it more than a lightshow, you must really, absolutely hate a person enough to wish death upon him. Just like a patronus, but the other way round - the hard part of the magic is to get into the right mindset. If you can do that, the spell becomes really easy, and you can cast it all day. That's what makes Voldemort so dangerous - he can casually use it against people he never met before - he really hates all people that much.

Still, the imperius is the worst, in my opinion, torture or pain is nothing against what people could do to you using that curse. You are not really aware of being controlled curse - according to the books, it's like a strange trip/being buzzed to you, every command seems a reasonable and a fun idea at that time.
But when the curse ends and you get aware what you have done, that's where the real horror starts. You don't know you were under the curse while you did those things. Usually, you won't know until you get checked for that spell. You will believe that you did all that, yourself. Like waking up after a drunk night where you passed out, and find yourself in the chaos you created.

[hongi]

Very nicely said. They're unforgiveable because to use them (effectively), you must be a person who puts themselves out of reach of forgiveness.

[ray245]

Same for the killing curse - it's not just a magical unstoppable superkill bullet. If it even grazes you, you are dead. You can still deflect it by objects or stepping aside, so no big deal. Why is it unforgiveable? As fake Moody (the polyjouiced Crouch) told the children - they all could cast it at him all day, and he wouldn't get as much as a nosebleed. Intent matters - to cast this spell and make it more than a lightshow, you must really, absolutely hate a person enough to wish death upon him. Just like a patronus, but the other way round - the hard part of the magic is to get into the right mindset. If you can do that, the spell becomes really easy, and you can cast it all day. That's what makes Voldemort so dangerous - he can casually use it against people he never met before - he really hates all people that much.

Which is why any comparison with a gun is not valid. Most people do not even use a gun to kill a human being, but uses it mainly to stop the other person from attacking them. As long as the person is on the floor and unable to resist, most people will not bother firing any additional bullets. I highly doubt most soldiers would actually revel in the violence and death of another human being.

Any other curse that can be used to kill doesn't seem to require such an intent to kill, which is probably why the Avada curse is considered more unforgivable.


To add to that, let's not forget the wizards seems to have strong attitude against the death penalty. Looking at how the wizards refuse to execute Wizard Hitler despite all the crimes he supposedly commit, they would rather imprison him for life. The same applies to most death eaters, even those that cast unforgivable spells. So to such a society, anyone who enjoys killing is probably seen as a greater sinner than most societies in the real world.

[Elheru Aran]

Yeah, the wizards do seem to have an anti-death penalty stance; the only exception seems to be that weird frame thing that Sirius fell through, which seems to be reserved for the *really* bad eggs. IIRC they put a couple of Death Eaters through it in one of the books?

[Elheru Aran]

Ghetto Edit: I did some research and will correct myself, that frame is called a "Veil" apparently, and Sirius is the only one to have gone through it as far as JKR mentions, although the setting it is in (middle of a small amphitheater) suggests a past function of wizard execution... a fairly useful one as it doesn't involve anybody using spells, just throw them through the Veil and you're done.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, the wizards do seem to have an anti-death penalty stance; the only exception seems to be that weird frame thing that Sirius fell through, which seems to be reserved for the *really* bad eggs. IIRC they put a couple of Death Eaters through it in one of the books?

No.

The only person to ever go through it in the books or films was Sirius Black, by accident. And really, if they wouldn't execute Sirius Black and even Grindelwald, who would they execute? Maybe Voldemort himself.

I suppose their's a reluctance to execute people because, in the Wizarding World, their is apparently proof that the soul exists and that it is damaged by killing in at least some circumstances. How they find subjecting people to decades of torture by Dementors any better, though...

[hongi]

Perhaps they think of the Dementors as an instrument of punishment. Their presence enables the criminal to remember their worst memories, it isn't that they're directly causing them pain, that may seem to them more like righteous punishment, rather than torture for the sake of getting more info or torture for the sake of vengeance. Still medieval at best, but Wizarding society is strangely backwards in many respects.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I suppose their's a reluctance to execute people because, in the Wizarding World, their is apparently proof that the soul exists and that it is damaged by killing in at least some circumstances. How they find subjecting people to decades of torture by Dementors any better, though...

Actually, having Azkaban around is probably why they don't bother with executions. Azkaban is worse, and for serious criminals, the Ministry probably thinks it's a better punishment than simply killing them quickly.

[ray245]

On the other hand, wizard Hitler wasn't locked up in azak aban.

On top of that, given that Rowling has indicated that dementors stopped being used after the war, it does suggest there is strong opposition to using dementors.

[The Romulan Republic]

I suppose their's a reluctance to execute people because, in the Wizarding World, their is apparently proof that the soul exists and that it is damaged by killing in at least some circumstances. How they find subjecting people to decades of torture by Dementors any better, though...

Actually, having Azkaban around is probably why they don't bother with executions. Azkaban is worse, and for serious criminals, the Ministry probably thinks it's a better punishment than simply killing them quickly.

I doubt that'll be the case after Deathly Hallows. I don't see the new Ministry being likely to be vicious enough to use Dementors, especially on that scale. Nor do I see them being stupid enough to leave supporters of Voldemort in charge of guarding supporters of Voldemort.