Good Military Science Fiction.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Wait, Coyote posted here? well I would like to also post about my great admiration for David "Vietnam Vet." Drake's work, even if he and Saberhagen are quite fond of recycling things into space.

[NoXion]

How about Stephen Baxter's Exultant?

Most of the main characters are members of the military, the setting is a pan-galactic human state locked in a ten-thousand year war with an implacable alien foe, and a large part of the plot is devoted to research projects into new weapons which it is hoped will hasten the end of the conflict in the humans' favour.

Granted, I don't think it is marketed as MilSF, but I think it could be considered part of that genre if one is willing to be a little flexible.

[thejester]

Connor has speculated in the past that the focus on numerical analysis (and using that to determine how 'good' something is) might be attractive because its a formal process that arrives at a number. Its a laundry list of 'feats' and 'events' which can be quoted, rather than a personal understanding of subjective textual elements which can't be 'proven' by maths and expose one's personal feelings and ideas.

If there's a market that looks for these things, it may drive the creation of fiction that satisfies it.

I reckon that's overthinking it. Numerical analysis is just a reflection of bored people asking 'which is better, x or y?' It's no different to the 150 page threads on BigFooty where the argument revoles around Scott Pendlebury being better than Marc Murphy because he averaged 1.2 contested possessions more last season. That the answer is irrelevant in a team sport of 22 is neither here nor there, people have an opinion and hate to be proven wrong. Is it creating a market? Maybe, but stuff like Weber and Drake and Kratmann blah blah has to be considered a nice of a niche genre, right? The authors who a) sell and b) are lauded do not write military sci-fi. We're just more aware of it because of the culture of boards like this, which I don't think is necessarily down to a rejection of themes so much as an inability to articulate them.

[jollyreaper]

It seems liek it keeps coming back to the definitions people want to impose on things, like these issues are somehow neat and clear cut and processed into nicely ordered little niches, when it's nowhere near the case. I actually run across this fairly often with sci fi fans.. there seems to be this inherent desire for an 'absolute' view on things, which can reflect in various ways (for example, I've heard people say that 'lack of a canon policy' is actually a contributer to a universe being inconsistent, which is pretty hilarious to me on all levels.).

There seems to be (at least with the segment of sci fi fandom we're dealing with) a certain discomfort with treating things in a relative, uncertain sense. I can also see some parallels in some of the past 'hard' sci fi discussions too, IIRc.

Some people obsess over silly stuff that doesn't really matter like getting the room numbers wrong on the set dressing or trying to retcon Klingon makeup changing over the years.

The kind of stuff that is more worthy of complaint becomes obvious if put in the guise of a police procedural. So it's a multiple day trip to LA from NYC by car but you have a character do this overnight. Aryan Brotherhood and the Crips are clearly enemies but now you have them cooperating on some caper without ever establishing how such an unexpected alliance of convenience came about which could have been an interesting story. Hero gets crippling knee injury, uses cane for two episodes for continuity, problem goes away. Police chief who has shown no signs of racism suddenly as issue with a Muslim cop on the force because writers want to tell a very special episode story, even though it's out of character. Body armor capable of stopping rifle rounds consistently is a major plot point one episode, three episodes later hero is gunning down bad guys using that same armor with his handgun. A nerd might fume that he used a glock in season 1 and a colt in season 2 without any explanation for the change. A valid objection would be if he made a point about only using revolvers for reliability and is now using a semi-auto without it being a part of the story. If it was never important, why bring it up? If it is important, put it in a scene. If a new boss is in charge of the force, it's a great way to have him establish authority to tell his officers they aren't allowed to use personal or non-standard weapons.

Scifi just has it worse because in addition to all the normal character stuff they could screw up, they also have invented civilizations and technologies.

I think the other major problem facing all scripted dramas is there's no beginning, middle and end. They borrow the conventions of long-form storytelling now without keeping each episode as stand-alone with a reset button but never ultimately go anywhere. Critics will say shows lost direction by the third or fourth season but they never knew where they were going in the first place.

[Coyote]

I never saw Hammer's Slammers as "neocon" or pro-war; if anything I think it reflected Drake's own thoughts about how the war scared the hell out of him. The thing is, the Slammers themselves seem all sure of themselves, but it is obvious that in many ways they are living in a sort of unreal world. As mercenaries, they are able to stay in the "war mindset" without questioning it, since they float from job to job and don't have to live with the repercussions or post-war rebuilding or deal with any "truth and reconciliation commissions" that pop up afterwards.

But Drake's intent was simply to show people surviving in war, not to focus on the social effects that ripple outwards from it. It could be argued that consciously choosing to avoid those effects might be a "statement" but I think that's reading too much into it. Drake's objectives were limited and he succeeded in them... and I don't think anyone can say his people are squeaky-clean heroes. Some are sympathetic, certainly, but none of them are heroic. Many are quite beastial, in fact.

[Ultonius]

As mercenaries, they are able to stay in the "war mindset" without questioning it, since they float from job to job and don't have to live with the repercussions or post-war rebuilding or deal with any "truth and reconciliation commissions" that pop up afterwards.

Though that all changes after they come home to New Friesland and stop being mercenaries, as seen in 'Standing Down' and 'A Death in Peacetime'.

Drake's objectives were limited and he succeeded in them... and I don't think anyone can say his people are squeaky-clean heroes. Some are sympathetic, certainly, but none of them are heroic. Many are quite beastial, in fact.

I would say that Danny Pritchard and to a lesser extent Don Slade probably come the closest to being heroic, though they're both capable of being very ruthless when they feel they have to be.

[TOSDOC]

Science Fiction Set in a war. Using at least semi-realistic tactics. Science can be as hard or soft as you like. I would prefer ones with well written characters.

Try David Gerrold's War Against The Chtorr series.

[Connor MacLeod]

It might be interesting to know the background (and potential military histories, if any) of various 'military' science fiction authors. I have this feeling it might affect both the tone and the content of the writing.

[Coyote]

Drake's well known as a veteran of the Vietnam War. It shows, even though he saw very little combat.

[Sleck]

Wait a minute...

[RatPatrol]

See other thread.

You can be looking for something thought-provoking or a guilty pleasure.

Just taking a wild stab at what you're looking for, the Old Man's War series is very well-received. I would advise you not spoil yourself too much before diving in. The audiobooks for it are top-notch. The characters all felt very human though I did manage to distract myself a bit with the logic behind colonization in this setting.

Hammer Slammers .......

[RatPatrol]

I never saw Hammer's Slammers as "neocon" or pro-war;

Drake's objectives were limited and he succeeded in them... and I don't think anyone can say his people are squeaky-clean heroes. Some are sympathetic, certainly, but none of them are heroic. Many are quite beastial, in fact.

Neither did I



Grimmer Than Hell [collection of short stories] follows a group of Grunts in the trenches 'so to speak'

not as well known as Hammer Slammers

this story line appears to have been expanded on with other writers