Improve Battletech

[Stark]

Of course. The durability system becomes pretty meaningless after 0087, but things like vulcans and MGs and whatever can't destroy anything with 'armour'.

Because I'm awesome however I have declared late UC suits have essentially no armour, so if you can hit a Unicorn with an MG, you'll damage it. Unless the pilot is totally unskilled that's absurdly unlikely, however.

[PainRack]

Well for one thing I'd take out the rule that makes machine gun ammo the most explosive substance known to man. When I used to run games all my players ejected their MG ammo before playing so they'd didn't violently explode.

You know I thought I heard that FASA always wanted to design video games which sort of explains the whole armor is just hit points thing. Ironically Battletech sorta works as the video game MegaMek where it streamlines all the damn record keeping and lets you clicky clicky through the battles. It's like, I can't even figure out the logic behind half the weapons in Battletech. What's the point of an AC/2? Or a small laser (or a Battlemech armed only with small lasers)? Like what kind of play testing did they do back in the 80's? Did they do any?

One thing you might want to discuss if you want to change the armor mechanic to something meaningful is how do you deal with the various ways a Battlemech can hurt itself. Like are they still going to take damage from falls and buildings? I mean I figure if you can take bullets to the chassis then a little fall shouldn't hurt that much. Would punches, kicks, and tree clubs still do major damage? I dunno, just spitballing.

The AC/2 was shit... its "only" advantage came primarily from light mechs in the light mech hunter role, and even here, it didn't work in the game itself. Essentially, vulcan, AC/2 and med laser, go chase commando/wasp/locust.

The way the map was played out however meant that unless players chose to abuse the "lay down map edge over map edge" scenario, a chase scenario that if I'm not wrong was not created in the 80s, the range and heat advantage of the AC/2 became worthless.

Small lasers and MGs on the other hand...... yes. They HAD a role for custom mechs in level 1 play. And that's the gist. LEVEL 1. Where the importance of one heat was important and mechs generally were 4/6. It was an... exploit that was quite.. useful.
And IMHO, explained why the MG ammo insta kill was relatively important back then. Seriously. One of the exploits someone came out with had a 6/9 or 5/8 medium mech using med lasers and MGs...... it was mobile enough that it was hard to reliably damage and it could deal out enough damage that it pawned classic heavies like the Warhammer in close combat.
Face a horde like that and it got downright frightful, using the old "tonnage" balance scenario.

[Stark]

See? Battletech fans like that the system was broken by 'useful exploits'. Would someone like Painrack accept a more rational system that didn't include such things? If a big draw is 'be amazingly powerful by gaming the system', fixing it won't make anyone happy.

[PainRack]

This is a problem with any roleplaying setting that tries to have a 'current day' with 'events' in line with the real world. I mean, look how stupid it was in Shadowrun when they introduced wireless in like 2071 or something - because in the 80s wireless was a scifi pipedream, and now it's totally ubiquitous.

As developers you either retcon it (which is probably impossible with all the stupid novels, for both brands) or you have to pretend it makes sense something all your players will use everyday is a brand new, exciting technological edge in the new expansion.

I recently read about 'plasma rifles' on sarna, and it's just bizarre. It really looks like they're just throwing weapon ideas at the wall to see what sticks at this point, when the system ALREADY has too many. Actually, Painrack, what 'tech level' is the 'standard' for games these days? I haven't actually played BT since the days of lasers and autocannons, but are things like MRMs and Streaks and Gauss Rifles de rigeur these days?

Oh please. Btech is infamous for fucked up shit. It attempted to introduce fucking TOWED guns as new in the early 90s. TOWED GUNS.
I can understand the LRM infantry, but fucking artillery guns are new?
Its not as if TRO 3026 didn't already make it clear that the Lyran infantry had fixed weapons and etc that would logically include towed guns but seriously fuck a..... Why couldn't towed guns just had been introduced as new rules in Chaos March?

as for tech level, I don't play anymore. The last Btech game I saw here in Singapore was Dark Age..... the other holdouts reverted back to Succession Era and 3050 level gameplay.

[PainRack]

See? Battletech fans like that the system was broken by 'useful exploits'. Would someone like Painrack accept a more rational system that didn't include such things? If a big draw is 'be amazingly powerful by gaming the system', fixing it won't make anyone happy.

You need to define "gaming" the system for me.

For me, I like a system where the rules don't bog down so much and gameplay is smoothed out. Also, that weapons have a "role" and function.

In this case, it isn't about munchkins or optimal builds but rather, about trying out crazy, whacky shit and see how that works out in the game. How does an instakill Alpha strike strike you? An assault mech with tons of Clantech ER PPC backed up by Med lasers and no additional heat sinks.

Or sniper mechs where you load it out with tons of gauss rifles and ppcs.... although there already exists one known as the Devastator.

If it was all about optimal builds, everyone will be using med lasers, with a primary weapon of one or two ppcs.

[Vehrec]

Tonnage balance. Yerk. Yeah, that right there illustrates everything that was wrong with old school battletech. If the clan guy brings 4 35 ton mechs to the fight? Then you're stuck with that 140 ton cap as well, aren't you? And since Zel rules for clan players were never made explicit...well, things started breaking down pretty quickly.

Tonnage balance. Who the hell ever thought that was a good idea?

[Purple]

Oh please. Btech is infamous for fucked up shit. It attempted to introduce fucking TOWED guns as new in the early 90s. TOWED GUNS.
I can understand the LRM infantry, but fucking artillery guns are new?
Its not as if TRO 3026 didn't already make it clear that the Lyran infantry had fixed weapons and etc that would logically include towed guns but seriously fuck a..... Why couldn't towed guns just had been introduced as new rules in Chaos March?

as for tech level, I don't play anymore. The last Btech game I saw here in Singapore was Dark Age..... the other holdouts reverted back to Succession Era and 3050 level gameplay.

I don't see what you have against towed artillery. Honestly, it is just as effective as it self propelled counterpart if not more. It can be taken apart and carried in small vehicles or on the crews back. It can conceal it self much better than vehicles since it does not have that pesky engine to give off a heat signature hours after turning off. Towed guns can fire guided missiles and shells over ranges that many times out range battle mechs. Seriously, if not for the stupidity in the setting off map towed artillery should be the #1 killer of battle mechs.

[Nephtys]

Battle Values were better than tonnage, but like any weird formula of this sort, it cannot account for built-in synnergies. A 100 ton Mech that moved 2/3 that had nothing but AC20s but no ammo for them cost as much as a killer Heavy Mech with excellent armaments and armor.

Anyway, as for tech level. I used to play on MegaMek and MegaMekNet(the online persistant campaign) a lot, since that took care of so many problems. 3025 Tech1 is what I like most, as I think it has the most balance. But 3050 to 3055 Tech2's also fun, where the new toys have arrived but all the designs suck horribly. Like hell, there's a Marauder II that has an XL Engine, and ammo... with CASE on a side torso. Oh fantastic. Another one has a CASE on a mech that's not even carrying ammo.

By 3058 and 3067 Tech2, the stock designs have so much optimization that I find it less fun. Substantially so.

Clans are whatever. They're only okay if they have to fight by honor rules mechanically (no physical attacks, two Clanners cannot pick the same opponent, etc)

[Norade]

Oh please. Btech is infamous for fucked up shit. It attempted to introduce fucking TOWED guns as new in the early 90s. TOWED GUNS.
I can understand the LRM infantry, but fucking artillery guns are new?
Its not as if TRO 3026 didn't already make it clear that the Lyran infantry had fixed weapons and etc that would logically include towed guns but seriously fuck a..... Why couldn't towed guns just had been introduced as new rules in Chaos March?

as for tech level, I don't play anymore. The last Btech game I saw here in Singapore was Dark Age..... the other holdouts reverted back to Succession Era and 3050 level gameplay.

I don't see what you have against towed artillery. Honestly, it is just as effective as it self propelled counterpart if not more. It can be taken apart and carried in small vehicles or on the crews back. It can conceal it self much better than vehicles since it does not have that pesky engine to give off a heat signature hours after turning off. Towed guns can fire guided missiles and shells over ranges that many times out range battle mechs. Seriously, if not for the stupidity in the setting off map towed artillery should be the #1 killer of battle mechs.

Way to miss the point, he was saying that in universe the idea of towed guns was supposed to be new and questioning that.

[consequences]

On making us buy new versions of old TROs to account for rules changes: They already bloody well do that anyway without significant rules changes. It's to the point where you may have bought nearly the same book three times already.

If they want to test the waters they can always put the quick start version of the new rules out as a free pdf and see how they're received.

[dworkin]

I would have a single hit / damage roll with snake-eyes representing the actual occasional misses. Modify downwards for defensive things and upwards for offensive things. For Boxcars, double some of the offensive mods.

Low results are Armour Held / No effect, ranging through cumulative damage modifiers, more and more serious damage results until you reach 'Target Explodes' at the top (eg 30+)

So now all you need are three damage tables. One for the main body, one for legs and one for arms. Legs would include more move penalties and knockdowns and arms more weapon results. Cockpit hits are in the high end results for the body. If you wanted to be really easy have the penalty for shooting at limbs offset by the lighter armour there. The 'mech has a standard defensive number based on its armour, move speed (mechs are typically assumed to be running, dodging , jumping, etc) and whatever.

You also don't really need numbers for pilot skill. Just give them a designation like Green, Regular, Veteren, Elite, (Hero, Champion, Demi-God ) and a resulting modifier for attack / defence.

Of course, you would need rules for combining various weapons into a single attack and how various weapons / ammo work. Lasers, for example combine really well but attenuate at ranges and are buggered by smoke / aerosols.

[PainRack]

Battle Values were better than tonnage, but like any weird formula of this sort, it cannot account for built-in synnergies. A 100 ton Mech that moved 2/3 that had nothing but AC20s but no ammo for them cost as much as a killer Heavy Mech with excellent armaments and armor.

IIRC, the Charger BV was higher than a Nova. Well, its definitely higher than a Phoenix hawk even though the Hawk only inferiority is inferior armour.

There simply wasn't any real way to bring about "balance" in a mission scenario. Campaign on the other hand..... if you had a good GM, who was willing to do all the recording that entails, "could" bring about balance via the use of C-bills, supply parts and replacement materials and shit. Its a shitload of work though. The only time I participated in a real campaign was as an opposition player, and I was amazed at the huge amount of work the GM had to run just to coordinate the merc league.


Well, so as not to derail the thread further, there is something else I would change about Battletech.

Military Production. Some of the shit is batshit insane. Components that had to be trucked in from god know how many light years across the entire sphere instead of being manufactured onsite. A planet is a big place afterall to put a medium laser factory. Then there's the whole place factory in the middle of jungle with limited transportation routes, or away from labour force, or etc. It didn't make sense even in universe, because logically, factories that were placed in the cities themselves or near other military/industrial complexes would had been easier to defend. While many of the factories were supposedly placed to exploit ores or other resources...... some of them explictly aren't. I don't see how a rainforest can has any radioactives ore or high grade steel/diamond etc that could be easily exploited. And I will revert back to the old insanity that apparently, it makes more sense to place factories near raw materials..... but make it neccessary to import the finished components from other planets.
To make matters even more absurd, they possess the technology to actually build, maintain space mines and indeed, they need to use space to build their endosteel/ferro fibrous armour. But nope, let's overload the critical jumpship bottleneck and transport in finished components and whatnot from everywhere in the sphere.

Even Hesperus isn't exempt from this and the argument of licensing doesn't make much sense either. Perhaps for post 3050 and the dealing of lostech but not 3030. Earth is the only system where this doesn't happen and the weird thing is, Earth superior productive capabilities are used to explain why the WOB is able to outfit their Shadow divisions.

BEAT explains "some" of this, but the Spheroid buildup of arms should had sidestepped any economic and technological controls the Star League had.

[Simon_Jester]

And I will revert back to the old insanity that apparently, it makes more sense to place factories near raw materials..... but make it neccessary to import the finished components from other planets.

One thought on this, specifically:

The raw materials are going to weigh a lot more than the finished products, and thus be harder to move. It's not a good argument for building the factory directly on top of the mine, as opposed to connecting factory to mine via a few hundred kilometers of railroad tracks or something. But it's a good argument for putting the factory on the same planet as the mine, when spacelift is a serious logistics bottleneck. I'd rather have to import antitank missiles and armor plate from another planet than have to import the rare-metal ores that went into creating the missiles and armor plate.

I'm disputing anything else you say, mind.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Of course. The durability system becomes pretty meaningless after 0087, but things like vulcans and MGs and whatever can't destroy anything with 'armour'.

Because I'm awesome however I have declared late UC suits have essentially no armour, so if you can hit a Unicorn with an MG, you'll damage it. Unless the pilot is totally unskilled that's absurdly unlikely, however.

So my next question is when are you going to make 'Gundamhammer 0079' PDF and what crappy pictures are you going to photoshop for the cover?

[Coalition]

And I will revert back to the old insanity that apparently, it makes more sense to place factories near raw materials..... but make it neccessary to import the finished components from other planets.

Part of it is that during the Succession Wars (aka the big Wars after the Star League went kerplut) was integrated manufacturing facilities like the one you describe often got nuclear (or orbital bombardment) renovations, while the personnel who could set up new facilities were a side effect of the casualties from a biological or chemical strike.

Basically, imagine two heavy wars, WW2 style, where the goal was destroying the opponent's infrastructure and trained personnel. Advanced jump computers means you can jump to dead space or empty systems, so any concept of a front is useless and they can simply pop in behind your lines, deliver instant sunrise to a manufacturing plant, and (hopefully) leave. You are doing the same to them, hopefully faster. If you try to conquer a planet and don't succeed, just nuke the infrastructure there so the other guy doesn't get to keep it. She is doing the same to you.

The third war was where they finally realized they were losing tech, and started to resurrect the older rules of war, to avoid losing space travel completely. (Combine this with a communications company that was carefully picking off the critical people needed, and leaking intel on new factories to their neighbors)

Here are some things they could not build as a result of tech loss during the Succession Wars:

• Compact jump cores (so instead of having access to a jump core that is ~45% of the ship's mass, you can only build one that is 95% the ship's mass)
• XL engines (extra light engines take up half the mass but are more bulky, allowing you to carry more guns and armor)
• ER lasers/PPCs (extended range weapons, but they produce more heat)
• Pulse lasers (shorter range than normal, but more accurate and a bit more damage)
• Ultra Autocannons (chance to do twice as much damage, but a 3% chance of jamming the gun completely, only repairable after battle)
• LB-X autocannons (can fire regular shells, or giant shotgun slugs, as the pilot decides, basically a dual feed option for a ~120mm automatic weapon)
• Laser guided artillery (Arrow IV and TAG, Arrow IV was the rocket artillery, and Target Acquisition Gear gave you a very good chance of hitting the enemy)
• CASE (instead of an ammunition explosion gutting the Mech, it stops in the side torso. So although that torso is gone, the center torso can be recovered and repaired; basically ammo blowout panels)
• Powered armor
• Heavy starship drives (so instead of being able to push around a 500,000+ (up to almost 2 million tons) ton ship at 1.5+ Gs, they are limited to drives that can only do .1G; Clans eventually developed a drive capable of 3.6 million tons thrust)

Plus other stuff. There are automated factories in the 3025 era where they cannot even maintain the equipment, let alone repair or replace them. Each day the technicians basically pray it keeps on running so somebody has a chance to recover the lost technology.

The Core worlds (and wealthy nobles) do have advanced technology, but for most of the outer worlds and people on them, building Battlemech grade items is not going to happen. Cue the tag line, "Life is cheap, Battlemechs are expensive". Comstar is carefully helping out to make itself the guardian of technology, especially FTL communications.

A surprise occurs - the Grey Death Core got released and spread, and all those research facilities got the Holy Grail of technology. From there new technology gets released, and the Houses have some incentive to research and renovate their systems.

Then the Clans arrive, and the Houses have a very good reason to get the old tech back in operation.

[PainRack]

Part of it is that during the Succession Wars (aka the big Wars after the Star League went kerplut) was integrated manufacturing facilities like the one you describe often got nuclear (or orbital bombardment) renovations, while the personnel who could set up new facilities were a side effect of the casualties from a biological or chemical strike.

Basically, imagine two heavy wars, WW2 style, where the goal was destroying the opponent's infrastructure and trained personnel. Advanced jump computers means you can jump to dead space or empty systems, so any concept of a front is useless and they can simply pop in behind your lines, deliver instant sunrise to a manufacturing plant, and (hopefully) leave. You are doing the same to them, hopefully faster. If you try to conquer a planet and don't succeed, just nuke the infrastructure there so the other guy doesn't get to keep it. She is doing the same to you.

The third war was where they finally realized they were losing tech, and started to resurrect the older rules of war, to avoid losing space travel completely. (Combine this with a communications company that was carefully picking off the critical people needed, and leaking intel on new factories to their neighbors)

We're not talking lostech. We're talking stupid factory location. Indeed, rebuilding destroyed industries SHOULD mean you're utilising your existing labour, logistic and resource network, as opposed to the Terran Hegemony and etc policy of colonising new planets purely to exploit resources.

For example, House Liao sourcebook tells us that a Battlemech facility on Demeter was destroyed with a nuclear blast, destroying 50 square miles of land..... which killed only 200 technicians.

[Purple]

That makes absolute perfect sense. If you have a setting where attacks such as those Coalition described are not unexpected and are in fact common strategy it makes sense to put your expected targets away from population centers and places that you don't want ending up as collateral damage.

[PainRack]

That makes absolute perfect sense. If you have a setting where attacks such as those Coalition described are not unexpected and are in fact common strategy it makes sense to put your expected targets away from population centers and places that you don't want ending up as collateral damage.

Not all factories and etc are built/rebuilt in the First Succession Era.
Norse Storm is for example, recent and rebuilt in the mountains. Its get even more funny because this was supposedly an abandoned/destroyed site in the first place.

[Purple]

That makes absolute perfect sense. If you have a setting where attacks such as those Coalition described are not unexpected and are in fact common strategy it makes sense to put your expected targets away from population centers and places that you don't want ending up as collateral damage.

Not all factories and etc are built/rebuilt in the First Succession Era.
Norse Storm is for example, recent and rebuilt in the mountains. Its get even more funny because this was supposedly an abandoned/destroyed site in the first place.

I don't get your point. Are you saying that the factories were built before cheap and light jump drives and nuclear weapons came to be? Becouse that is all it takes to perform the kind of hostile scorched earth strategy. Even at a time of relative peace and unity it would take a fool not to notice how such a technological base can go MAD on the drop of a pin.

[PainRack]

I don't get your point. Are you saying that the factories were built before cheap and light jump drives and nuclear weapons came to be? Becouse that is all it takes to perform the kind of hostile scorched earth strategy. Even at a time of relative peace and unity it would take a fool not to notice how such a technological base can go MAD on the drop of a pin.

I'm pointing out that while your arguments applied for the 1st Succession wars, it doesn't for the third and fourth, after the Inner Sphere began to rebuild its industry.

Anyway, I will also point out that the attack on Demeter predated the Succession wars in the first place and only resulted in the death of 200 technicians, despite affecting a 50 mile square radius.

[Purple]

[quote="PainRack"I'm pointing out that while your arguments applied for the 1st Succession wars, it doesn't for the third and fourth, after the Inner Sphere began to rebuild its industry.[/quote]
I disagree with you there. Sure there are treaties that are supposed to do the same thing. But treaties are just words on paper. And the bottom line is that if you are stupid enough to rely on treaties alone and pretend no harm can come to you all that happens is that you leave your self open for an attack while you can't retaliate on the enemy who is prepared. It makes perfect sense that after witnessing what MAD can do to a nation they have taken extra precautions and not just rely on treaties. After all, whats stopping a faction going rogue?

Anyway, I will also point out that the attack on Demeter predated the Succession wars in the first place and only resulted in the death of 200 technicians, despite affecting a 50 mile square radius.

I does not matter that it was before the wars. Becouse before the wars the technology used in the wars was there.

Allow me to quote my self again for you with emphasis:

I don't get your point. Are you saying that the factories were built before cheap and light jump drives and nuclear weapons came to be? Becouse that is all it takes to perform the kind of hostile scorched earth strategy. Even at a time of relative peace and unity it would take a fool not to notice how such a technological base can go MAD on the drop of a pin.

Or, to explain further for you. The tools used in the 1st succession war was not made up on the spot for them. It existed for decades earlier. And during these earlier decades engineers, architects and military planers had the sense to see them and plan for them. Your argument is like saying that it makes no sense to design bomb shelters if you have newer been bombed even thou your army operates a bomber force.

[PainRack]

..... Do you know how factories are built nowadays? They aren't built in the middle of nowhere. They're built to exploit labour, resources, markets or at the centre of logistic networks.

Why the HELL would a Battlemech factory be isolated in the middle of nowhere prior to the Succession Wars, when NO threat of WMD was present?

Some of the reasons are known. For example, Hespersus was built to exploit ores. Some factories were built to exploit rare radioactives.
However, the Inner Sphere strange sense of logistics means that even prior to the Succession Wars, mech parts were being built and sent light years across a logistical bottleneck just to build a mech. It simply doesn't make sense given the vast scale of land and resources a star system has.

[VF5SS]

Jeez guys, cut the factory talk. None of that stuff really impacts the game directly and is just lame fluff crap you can change very easily.

[consequences]

Jeez guys, cut the factory talk. None of that stuff really impacts the game directly and is just lame fluff crap you can change very easily.

Relevant to strategic games where supply lines and logistics are likely critical, check.

Relevant to rpgs where the sourcing of replacement equipment most definitely matters for a small group operating on a shoe string, check.

Relevant to everyone who doesn't dismiss background information as lame fluff crap, check.

Congratulations, I do believe you've earned condescension in at least three separate ways with no more than two sentences, well done.

In any case, I firmly disagree with the idea of rationalizing production. If planets represent islands that can actually produce everything they need, the entire strategic paradigm breaks down. Maybe tone it down a little, but making it so one world can't actually churn out the equipment it could easily use to render itself unassailable is the only way to keep the unit numbers where they are.

If you're willing to sit down and figure out the force levels that would actually be involved in planetary assaults post factory placement optimization that's one thing, but you can't just change one aspect without looking at how it alters the whole.

[PainRack]

I'm not sure what you're getting at consequences. Would you mind elaborating regarding the strategic paradigm?