EPIC FAIL Master Races

[Black Admiral]

Or every single person on the Imperial side being so moronic they couldn't tie their own shoelaces without strangling themselves (see: IA3).

[Ahriman238]

The Tau have the excuse of genuine technological superiority (I think - anyone better versed in WH40k tech correct me if I'm wrong) and the Imperium having much, much, much worse problems to deal with. Compared to Chaos, the Necrons, and the Orks, the Tau practically don't show up. The opportunity cost of crushing the Tau, or doing anything other than half-assedly holding the line, is too high. Those forces could be used elsewhere fighting soul-eating monstrosities that can do more damage to the Imperium in an hour than the Tau can in a year.
I hardly think "too pathetic on a galactic scale to waste effort killing" qualifies as Master Race.

Yes and no. The Imperium is hardly technologically homogenous. There exist Bronze or Middle Age civilizations within the Imperium where the only advanced tech is maybe a Custodes courthouse. Part of that is the Imperium's own messed up internal politics where, for instance, there are less than half a dozen Forge worlds that can produce Plasma Guns. They're not going to share how they do it, that would make them less valuable to the Imperium!

The Tau have the advantage that everyone has access to tech that is realtivly rare in the imperium, carapace armor and plasma weapons. Their plasma guns also have a better rate of fire and overheat less, but this isn't so much a technical disparity as it is a design choice, the Imperium favors brute power over safety and user-friendliness. Still, if you took every Stormtrooper with a plasma gun and carapace armor in the Imperium and stood them in a line, and did the same for the Tau's fire Caste, the Imperial line would be longer by a generous margin. The Tau really are that tiny and provincial in the galaxy.

On the other hand, the Tau do have some tech that is genuinely better. The Imperium has long forbidden the devolpment of AIs, and tends to shun extensive computer support whenever possible, so the Tau have a definiate advantage there. The Imperium is unable to duplicate Tau Drones or things like the multi-tracker for cultural reasons. Tau Battlesuits are generally far more agile and mobile than Dreadnaughts, their closest Imperial equivalent. Tau Etherdrives allow a ship FTL without braving the Warp and have been getting progressively better. The latest generation can acheive a third the speeds of true Warp Drive. Finally, for some reason Imperial Commanders and tech-priests are mystified by the Tau Railguns. I have no explanation for this.

So, the Tau are technically superior in a few respects, but not as many as you'd think. As for depending on authorial fiat, at least twice the Imperium has launched expeditions to wipe out those blue/gray bastards once and for all. Each time the invasions were bogged down by incompetence or politics, the Tau held at enormous cost of life, and then (both times!) the Imperials had to drop everything and pull out to redeploy their forces against a massive Tyranid attack.

So yeah, I think they deserve to make the list.

[Whiskey144]

Yes and no. The Imperium is hardly technologically homogenous. There exist Bronze or Middle Age civilizations within the Imperium where the only advanced tech is maybe a Custodes courthouse. Part of that is the Imperium's own messed up internal politics where, for instance, there are less than half a dozen Forge worlds that can produce Plasma Guns. They're not going to share how they do it, that would make them less valuable to the Imperium!

I'll note that the Adeptus Custodes are limited to Terra. What you're thinking of is the Arbites; Custodes are the custodians of the Emperor, the Arbites are the Imperial lawkeeping body. Also note that there are more than half a dozen Forge Worlds that produce plasma guns. There are some that can produce a greater variety or quality, or perhaps can produce types that others can't.

The Tau have the advantage that everyone has access to tech that is realtivly rare in the imperium, carapace armor and plasma weapons. Their plasma guns also have a better rate of fire and overheat less, but this isn't so much a technical disparity as it is a design choice, the Imperium favors brute power over safety and user-friendliness. Still, if you took every Stormtrooper with a plasma gun and carapace armor in the Imperium and stood them in a line, and did the same for the Tau's fire Caste, the Imperial line would be longer by a generous margin. The Tau really are that tiny and provincial in the galaxy.

This is a 'kinda-sorta' type of thing. The Imperium favors brute firepower over safety, but they also issue the standard infantryman a highly reliable weapon that requires next to no logistics support. OTOH, plasma weaponry in Tau and Imperial military use is quite different; Imperial plasma weapons tend to be more powerful and are usually issued as special-purpose weapons, whilst Tau pulse rifles are pretty much mini-plasma-guns. The tradeoff is that Tau plasma weapons lack the firepower of Imperial counterparts.

Fun fact: there are probably more Storm troopers than there are Tau. As in, there's probably more infantry in Imperial Storm Trooper companies than there are Tau in the Tau Empire.

On the other hand, the Tau do have some tech that is genuinely better. The Imperium has long forbidden the devolpment of AIs, and tends to shun extensive computer support whenever possible, so the Tau have a definiate advantage there. The Imperium is unable to duplicate Tau Drones or things like the multi-tracker for cultural reasons. Tau Battlesuits are generally far more agile and mobile than Dreadnaughts, their closest Imperial equivalent. Tau Etherdrives allow a ship FTL without braving the Warp and have been getting progressively better. The latest generation can acheive a third the speeds of true Warp Drive. Finally, for some reason Imperial Commanders and tech-priests are mystified by the Tau Railguns. I have no explanation for this.

From what I can ascertain, the general consensus of 40K-buffs on this board is that Imperial AI is actually quite advanced; it's just not called AI and it isn't used in the same applications or to the same degree as it could due to (quite legitimate, actually) cultural reasons. For example, some machine spirits (like the Land Raider's) are actually sophisticated AI.

WRT others items, like battlesuits vs Dreadnoughts, SM Dreads aren't the equivalent of battlesuits; Guard Sentinel walkers are. It comes down to the role; battlesuits often carry heavy weapons, like Dreads, but Tau battlesuits are more often allocated in rapid airmobile assaults or hit&run actions, similar to Sentinels, which also carry heavy weapons. The tradeoff of said agility and mobility, however, is that battlesuits are very vulnerable. Tau drones aren't able to be replicated by the Imperials for several reasons:

1) They actually have an analogue that works just fine; the servo-skull.
2) Cultural reasons. Dirty AI is unholy, not like that sanctified machine spirit.
3) The main reasons the Tau use drones so much is manpower, a resource the Imperium does not lack.

WRT the multi-tracker, the Imperium's ability to do so is different. The analogues of the battlesuit are capable of firing up to two weapons simultaneously (the Sentinel can't, more because it only ever carries a single gun system), whilst the Leman Russ is fully capable of moving around whilst firing it's much more destructive battle cannon and other armaments.

Tau Etherdrive is also, while of consistent speed through the Warp and safer, likely to be incapable of attaining the velocities that Imperial Warp drives can. It comes down to the relatively inert psychic capabilities of the Tau, compared to mankind in 40K. WRT the whole "commander/tech-priest mystified by Tau railguns", it's quite possible that the areas said individuals are from don't see a whole lot in electromagnetic propulsive weapons. Railgun-type weaponry is indeed known to the Imperium; a hive world like Necromunda is capable of using such technology in grenade launchers, and this is low-down hive gangers we're talking.

So, the Tau are technically superior in a few respects, but not as many as you'd think. As for depending on authorial fiat, at least twice the Imperium has launched expeditions to wipe out those blue/gray bastards once and for all. Each time the invasions were bogged down by incompetence or politics, the Tau held at enormous cost of life, and then (both times!) the Imperials had to drop everything and pull out to redeploy their forces against a massive Tyranid attack.

So yeah, I think they deserve to make the list.

Tau technical superiority is general on a per-unit basis; Imperial equipment has to, by design, be simpler and more mechanically reliable in order to function in 99+% of the highly varied environments contained within the Imperium. IIRC, in some climates the Tau have had to adapt their gear for operation, whilst the Imperium did not have to do nearly as much, because they either had such adaptations already equipped, or the gear did not require modification.

But yeah, the Tau deserve to make the list by virtue of depending on authorial fiat to survive. But I don't think it's as much fiat as might be generally construed; the Tau Empire isn't much bigger than an Imperial sector, so it could just be that the Tau aren't big enough to warrant the kind of response that, say, the Tyranids or Chaos might.

[Simon_Jester]

Fun fact: there are probably more Storm troopers than there are Tau. As in, there's probably more infantry in Imperial Storm Trooper companies than there are Tau in the Tau Empire.

I wouldn't go that far. The Tau have, what, a few dozen fairly well-settled worlds? Something like a hundred billion Tau, total, maybe a few hundreds of billions.

Whereas with the Imperium's "million worlds" as a rough estimate, that would work out to something like a hundred thousand Storm Troopers per planet. While that's not totally unreasonable, I'm honestly not sure the numbers work out that high- if they did, the Storm Troopers would be numerous enough to make the Space Marines largely superfluous, because for all but a handful of things the Marines do, a thousand times as many Storm Troopers could do them better. Even by the "Movie Marine" standards of the fluff.

[Ahriman238]

Whiskey144 wrote:

Fun fact: there are probably more Storm troopers than there are Tau. As in, there's probably more infantry in Imperial Storm Trooper companies than there are Tau in the Tau Empire.
I wouldn't go that far. The Tau have, what, a few dozen fairly well-settled worlds? Something like a hundred billion Tau, total, maybe a few hundreds of billions.

Whereas with the Imperium's "million worlds" as a rough estimate, that would work out to something like a hundred thousand Storm Troopers per planet. While that's not totally unreasonable, I'm honestly not sure the numbers work out that high- if they did, the Storm Troopers would be numerous enough to make the Space Marines largely superfluous, because for all but a handful of things the Marines do, a thousand times as many Storm Troopers could do them better. Even by the "Movie Marine" standards of the fluff.

Where to begin? The Tau have 18 worlds that are industrialized, contributing members of Tau Society, populated predominantly by Tau. As many as 27, if you count every world with just a research station or a single domed city, Kroot, Vespid, Nicassar, and Human Worlds as well as two planets currently contested with the Imperium. Though there are a few dozen space habitats.

The Imperium has a million worlds. That is a low-end estimate from the same people who have misplaced entire sectors due to rounding errors.

More, the Imperium's worlds are often well, and thoughly habitated, with populations in excess of fifty billion crammed into Hive Cities. Compare with the Tau, who's worlds mostly consist of grassland and forest, with a reasonable sprinkling of cities. I now quote one of my favorite 40k posters:

There are 500 Trillion men in the Imperial Guard alone. You Will Not Be Missed.

If you don't like that, here's a quote from the recent 'Victories of the Space Marines' anthology:

Do not presume to tell me what a life is worth in a galaxy where a billion good men die every day to preserve the Imperium.

And the most recent 'Nid Codex revealed that the Imperium has an emergency plan, in the event of a supermassive 'Nid incursion, to quintuple the size of the Guard by the largest mass conscription ever undertaken. That is stated to be the equivalent of every man, woman and child in three Segmentum, which taken with the above gives us a nice rough figure for the Imperium's population.

The Tau aren't even close. But then, they've only been a spacefaring race a few centuries. And since the IG is usually pretty good about getting one Stormtrooper company for each regiment, I'd say if we take 10% of the above Whiskey's probably pretty damn close, if not entirely correct.

Tau Etherdrive is also, while of consistent speed through the Warp and safer, likely to be incapable of attaining the velocities that Imperial Warp drives can.

Eh, it started of being something like 5 to 10% as fast as Imperial Warp Drive, to 20% to now 33%. That's fast enough to get to most places within your lifetime, and maybe even make Etherdrive a viable replacement for Warp Drive, as long as there are no emergencies.

From what I can ascertain, the general consensus of 40K-buffs on this board is that Imperial AI is actually quite advanced; it's just not called AI and it isn't used in the same applications or to the same degree as it could due to (quite legitimate, actually) cultural reasons. For example, some machine spirits (like the Land Raider's) are actually sophisticated AI.

Like Dune, the Imperium has been thoroughly scarred by robot revolt and banned all such technologies. They do have some okay computers, but the machines are never allowed decision making capability. For most cases where an AI would be needed, they use Servitors. It's a bit of a double standard, but lobotomized cyborgs are considered to be more reliable than true AI, because they still have squishy bits, they are still sort of human, part of and loyal to humanity in ways that true AI could never be. Same story with the Servo-Skulls, but I'm not actually sure if there's still a brain in there.

The Land Raider's Machine Spirit is a bit of a special case. If the crew is killed the LR will either return home or proceed to it's objective, and return fire at anyone who shoots at it. Outside of that, non Servitor-AIs tend to be about as sophisticated as a roomba.

[Whiskey144]

I wouldn't go that far. The Tau have, what, a few dozen fairly well-settled worlds? Something like a hundred billion Tau, total, maybe a few hundreds of billions.

Whereas with the Imperium's "million worlds" as a rough estimate, that would work out to something like a hundred thousand Storm Troopers per planet. While that's not totally unreasonable, I'm honestly not sure the numbers work out that high- if they did, the Storm Troopers would be numerous enough to make the Space Marines largely superfluous, because for all but a handful of things the Marines do, a thousand times as many Storm Troopers could do them better. Even by the "Movie Marine" standards of the fluff.

Hence why I said "probably". IMO, it's quite likely. IIRC, there's a 40K poster floating around that says "God-Emperor of Man: 400 Trillion Screaming Fanatics can't be Wrong".

There are 500 Trillion men in the Imperial Guard alone. You Will Not Be Missed.

I'm not sure just how accurate "500 trillion men in the IG alone" is. It's certainly up into the trillions at a guesstimate, considering all the times that it's said that billions die every day.

Eh, it started of being something like 5 to 10% as fast as Imperial Warp Drive, to 20% to now 33%. That's fast enough to get to most places within your lifetime, and maybe even make Etherdrive a viable replacement for Warp Drive, as long as there are no emergencies.

The problem is that it couldn't become a viable replacement for Warp Drive. It works great for the Tau because they're clustered together in a territory roughly equivalent in astrographic terms to an Imperial sector. Said sectors are 200ly/side cubes. And considering that the Imperium covers most of the Milky Way, it's simply too slow to accomodate Imperial requirements. Travel may be more reliable, but it'll be slower. And when you need to cross half the galaxy, that really counts.

Like Dune, the Imperium has been thoroughly scarred by robot revolt and banned all such technologies. They do have some okay computers, but the machines are never allowed decision making capability. For most cases where an AI would be needed, they use Servitors. It's a bit of a double standard, but lobotomized cyborgs are considered to be more reliable than true AI, because they still have squishy bits, they are still sort of human, part of and loyal to humanity in ways that true AI could never be. Same story with the Servo-Skulls, but I'm not actually sure if there's still a brain in there.

The Land Raider's Machine Spirit is a bit of a special case. If the crew is killed the LR will either return home or proceed to it's objective, and return fire at anyone who shoots at it. Outside of that, non Servitor-AIs tend to be about as sophisticated as a roomba.

WRT Servo-skulls, I'm 99% certain there's no brain in it. The thing has to contain whatever sensory apparatus that allow it to function, in addition to a suspensor device and power source. Considering that most of the internal volume of the human skill (AFAIK, anyway) is used by the brain, that's the first bit that has to go. However, I'll note that servo-skulls are actually moderately intelligent. They've got enough mental capacity to serve as assistants; ref: Graham McNeill's Ultramarines novel "The Killing Ground" where a priest uses a servo-skull to retrieve not-very-small books of sermons.

WRT the AI thing, the Tau drones aren't all that much brighter than a servitor. Also of note is that servitors are quite likely to be much more capable and flexible than Tau drones, if only for their humanoid build allowing for them to be used in menial tasks that humans are capable of performing, like munitions loading or repair support.

WRT Imperial computer technology, I'd say it's pretty advanced considering what they have to do and what uses it's put through. They've got computer technology in everything from power armor to boltguns to vehicle detection systems to starship gunnery controls.

[Srelex]

IA3 notes the Tau Empire as numbering a hundred worlds, although that might be taking into account little colonies.

WRT the AI thing, the Tau drones aren't all that much brighter than a servitor. Also of note is that servitors are quite likely to be much more capable and flexible than Tau drones, if only for their humanoid build allowing for them to be used in menial tasks that humans are capable of performing, like munitions loading or repair support.

The Tau appear to have quite a variety of drones in fluff and elsewhere, from maintenance to construction, and tbh the fact that they're more compact and probably more easily replaced than servitors would put them above in the practicality department.

[Simon_Jester]

Whiskey144 wrote:

Fun fact: there are probably more Storm troopers than there are Tau. As in, there's probably more infantry in Imperial Storm Trooper companies than there are Tau in the Tau Empire.
I wouldn't go that far. The Tau have, what, a few dozen fairly well-settled worlds? Something like a hundred billion Tau, total, maybe a few hundreds of billions.

Whereas with the Imperium's "million worlds" as a rough estimate, that would work out to something like a hundred thousand Storm Troopers per planet. While that's not totally unreasonable, I'm honestly not sure the numbers work out that high- if they did, the Storm Troopers would be numerous enough to make the Space Marines largely superfluous, because for all but a handful of things the Marines do, a thousand times as many Storm Troopers could do them better. Even by the "Movie Marine" standards of the fluff.

Where to begin? The Tau have 18 worlds that are industrialized, contributing members of Tau Society, populated predominantly by Tau. As many as 27, if you count every world with just a research station or a single domed city, Kroot, Vespid, Nicassar, and Human Worlds as well as two planets currently contested with the Imperium. Though there are a few dozen space habitats.

The Imperium has a million worlds. That is a low-end estimate from the same people who have misplaced entire sectors due to rounding errors.

More, the Imperium's worlds are often well, and thoughly habitated, with populations in excess of fifty billion crammed into Hive Cities. Compare with the Tau, who's worlds mostly consist of grassland and forest, with a reasonable sprinkling of cities. I now quote one of my favorite 40k posters:

There are 500 Trillion men in the Imperial Guard alone. You Will Not Be Missed.

If you don't like that, here's a quote from the recent 'Victories of the Space Marines' anthology:

Do not presume to tell me what a life is worth in a galaxy where a billion good men die every day to preserve the Imperium.

Hint: those two numbers are not consistent.

500 trillion for the Imperial Guard is rather unlikely- that requires 500 million men under arms per planet- and yes, there are hive worlds that could easily support that many, in addition to the PDF forces which are roughly ten times as numerous. But there are also feral worlds and nearly uninhabitable worlds which could not possibly sustain such a large troop commitment, as well as remote agrarian worlds which are barely aware that the Imperial administration exists and cannot possibly be contributing 10% of their population to the Guard, in addition to the aforementioned PDF.

I could easily believe one trillion, or ten trillion, or maybe even fifty trillion. I have a damned hard time believing 500 trillion.

The Tau aren't even close. But then, they've only been a spacefaring race a few centuries. And since the IG is usually pretty good about getting one Stormtrooper company for each regiment, I'd say if we take 10% of the above Whiskey's probably pretty damn close, if not entirely correct.

One company per regiment? Checking the codex... "It is rare that the entirety of the Storm Trooper regiment will fight in one place. Instead, individual companies are sent to bolster the strength of the Imperial guard present..."

I see nothing about one company per regiment.

[Whiskey144]

The Tau appear to have quite a variety of drones in fluff and elsewhere, from maintenance to construction, and tbh the fact that they're more compact and probably more easily replaced than servitors would put them above in the practicality department.

I'm doubtful of this; more because of the (very likely) possibility that the Imperium has more candidates for servitor conversion than the Tau have the ability to build drones.

I'd even go so far as to say that the number of servitors used in the Imperium outnumber the total population of the Tau (only Tau, mind you) by a factor of at least two to three times.

One company per regiment? Checking the codex... "It is rare that the entirety of the Storm Trooper regiment will fight in one place. Instead, individual companies are sent to bolster the strength of the Imperial guard present..."

I see nothing about one company per regiment.

But the point remains that the enormous disparity in population between the Imperium and the Tau Empire is such that there is very likely more Storm Troopers in Imperial service than there are Tau in the Tau Empire.

I'm honestly not sure if the numbers work out that high- if they did, the Storm Troopers would be numerous enough to make the Space Marines largely superfluous, because for all but a handful of things the Marines do, a thousand times as many Storm Troopers could do them better. Even by the "Movie Marine" standards of the fluff.

I disagree; whilst Storm Troopers are equipped and trained better than the average Guardsman, there's only so much numbers can do. Further, the Astartes actually have a very different role than Storm Troopers. The Astartes more-or-less perform the role of first-responders; when shit happens and things go south, then the Astartes are the first on the scene to fuck up whoever decided to mess with Imperial territory and/or interests. In contrast, Storm Troopers are first-in or special objective operations in common theaters of war.

It'd also be hard for Storm Troopers to make the Astartes superfluous, considering the relative autonomy of the Astartes (thus allowing them their own fleets) is something the Storm Troopers lack.

[Imperial Overlord]

Tau Warp Drive has been stated to be one-fifth the speed of standard Warp drives and that's before you get the Navigator boost. Now since without a Navigator you can manage (depending greatly on conditions and so forth) a speed better than one light year per day. The Tau don't need a speedy Warp drive. Yet.

There are other areas where their technology is completely inferior to the Imperium. Psychic and Warp related technologies like familiars, psi boosters, and teleporters for example and then there's the whole genetically engineered super soldier thing. The Tau's big advantage is that Imperial technological progress/recovery of Dark Age Technology is at a painful crawl while the Tau are continuing to advance.

[Whiskey144]

Tau Warp Drive has been stated to be one-fifth the speed of standard Warp drives and that's before you get the Navigator boost. Now since without a Navigator you can manage (depending greatly on conditions and so forth) a speed better than one light year per day. The Tau don't need a speedy Warp drive. Yet.

There are other areas where their technology is completely inferior to the Imperium. Psychic and Warp related technologies like familiars, psi boosters, and teleporters for example and then there's the whole genetically engineered super soldier thing. The Tau's big advantage is that Imperial technological progress/recovery of Dark Age Technology is at a painful crawl while the Tau are continuing to advance.

And even then, the Tau's advancement rate compared to the Imperium's isn't going to help them much. The main limitation that they've got to work with is the sheer disparity in size. It's also very true that the Tau don't need fast Warp drives; the size of their empire is simply too small to require it.

Though I'll note that part of the reason I mentioned the failings of Etherdrive was because of the notion that it could be useful to the Imperium.

[Sithking Zero]

Though I'll note that part of the reason I mentioned the failings of Etherdrive was because of the notion that it could be useful to the Imperium.

Agreed, the Etherdrive could be useful over short distances, particularly when boosted by a Navigator. Plus, since it has far less connection to the Warp, or as some call it, "Super Space Hell," it'd be far less likely to attract the attentions of, say, demons, hellmonsters, the Chaos Gods, or other nightmarish horrors that live there. Perhaps there would be "Central," colony worlds of the Imperium, which hold massive amounts of ships and weapons, and they use the Etherdrive to get to nearby stars.

[Whiskey144]

Agreed, the Etherdrive could be useful over short distances, particularly when boosted by a Navigator. Plus, since it has far less connection to the Warp, or as some call it, "Super Space Hell," it'd be far less likely to attract the attentions of, say, demons, hellmonsters, the Chaos Gods, or other nightmarish horrors that live there. Perhaps there would be "Central," colony worlds of the Imperium, which hold massive amounts of ships and weapons, and they use the Etherdrive to get to nearby stars.

Actually, I doubt that Etherdrive would be of use to the Imperium. Warp drive works fine for Imperial purposes, so it's more than likely that they'd be leary of adapting something slower and of a different technology basis. Also note that hull design DOES affect Etherdrive performance, unlike Warp drive.

Further, I'd argue that because Etherdrive does not actually enter the Warp in its entirety, it would actually be very poor for use with the support of a Navigator. Think of it like staring through water without eye protection, instead of using goggles. Also note that part of the reason Etherdrive works so well for the Tau, IMO, is due to the very un-psychic nature of the Tau.

[Sithking Zero]

Agreed, the Etherdrive could be useful over short distances, particularly when boosted by a Navigator. Plus, since it has far less connection to the Warp, or as some call it, "Super Space Hell," it'd be far less likely to attract the attentions of, say, demons, hellmonsters, the Chaos Gods, or other nightmarish horrors that live there. Perhaps there would be "Central," colony worlds of the Imperium, which hold massive amounts of ships and weapons, and they use the Etherdrive to get to nearby stars.

Actually, I doubt that Etherdrive would be of use to the Imperium. Warp drive works fine for Imperial purposes, so it's more than likely that they'd be leary of adapting something slower and of a different technology basis. Also note that hull design DOES affect Etherdrive performance, unlike Warp drive.

Further, I'd argue that because Etherdrive does not actually enter the Warp in its entirety, it would actually be very poor for use with the support of a Navigator. Think of it like staring through water without eye protection, instead of using goggles. Also note that part of the reason Etherdrive works so well for the Tau, IMO, is due to the very un-psychic nature of the Tau.

Again, any sort of FTL drive that doesn't send me through SUPER HELL does not strike me as a bad thing. Call me crazy, and Iknow that you make good points in your previous post, but... It's one thing for Imperial Guardsmen, or Inquisitors, or even Space Marines to go through the Warp when the extremely fickle imperial technology (such as the Geller Field) fails- they have weapons, artifacts, and techpriests to back them up and keep them alive long enough to drop out of the Warp. But for civilian vessels, an Etherdrive might be a little more attractive in terms of "Not having my soul slowly eaten, crapped out, devoured, and re-crapped for eternity."

[Sarevok]

Tau > Imperium for the simple reason their stuff actually looks like it was made in the future. Most of the Imperium's kit and architecture looks like it came from 13th century France. Seriously flying cathedrals ? No amount of calcs is going to convince it has TERATONZ of firepower. And the Imperial Guard ? I don't care what the fluff says, these guys would look old fashioned when fighting alongside Napoleons troops.

Seriously aesthetics is a huge part of science fiction. And the Tau got that very important element of fiction down right much better. You cant criticize GW for wanking them when their stuff actually looks sleek, futuristic and advanced. It's far easier to buy a Tau Crisis suit being a advanced weapon system. Unlike a space marine that looks like medieval knight complete with swords !

Don't get me wrong. I just want GW to update their artwork. They are no longer a tiny company that cant afford anything more than blocky tabletop models. They should redesign the Imperium armies while keeping true to the spirit of the old editions.

[Srelex]

So you think Tau stuff looks cooler than the Imperium's? Fair enough, but what's that got to do with anything here?

[Serafina]

Tau > Imperium for the simple reason their stuff actually looks like it was made in the future. Most of the Imperium's kit and architecture looks like it came from 13th century France. Seriously flying cathedrals ? No amount of calcs is going to convince it has TERATONZ of firepower. And the Imperial Guard ? I don't care what the fluff says, these guys would look old fashioned when fighting alongside Napoleons troops.

Seriously aesthetics is a huge part of science fiction. And the Tau got that very important element of fiction down right much better. You cant criticize GW for wanking them when their stuff actually looks sleek, futuristic and advanced. It's far easier to buy a Tau Crisis suit being a advanced weapon system. Unlike a space marine that looks like medieval knight complete with swords !

Don't get me wrong. I just want GW to update their artwork. They are no longer a tiny company that cant afford anything more than blocky tabletop models. They should redesign the Imperium armies while keeping true to the spirit of the old editions.

Are you serious?

The "true spirit" of the Imperium IS BASED on their "flying cathedrals", their "medieval knights" etc. That's not just due to the way the models look, it's in the artwork and the fluff, too.

Not to mention that you are dead-wrong. Have you looked at the current Guard-models?


That's a pretty modern infantry soldier. Not that futurist, but certainly more advanced looking than a soldier from the Napoleonic era!



So not only are you wrong (they don't look out-of date all the time, just not overly futuristic) and not understanding the material you are talking about (being feudal and gothic is an essential part of the Imperium), you're also blaming it entirely on the wrong reasons (it got nothing to do with model limitations - as the Tau prove!)

[Imperial Overlord]

Seriously? Sarevok is complaining about the Baroque/Gothic style of Imperial space ships and says the aesthetics make them seem weak and somehow didn't notice the huge overall size, massive engines and titanic gun batteries those things mount? That's not style over substance, that's focusing on the style and completely missing the substance. Tau tech looks shiny, smooth, and like it should be displayed at a tech show. Imperial tech looks like it's been issued by Space Russia to fight Space World War Two. Now there's a lot of things that come to mind when Russian tech in WW2 come up, but "ineffective" isn't one of them.

[Shroom Man 777]

Sarevok is just bitching about clear glass canopies, as usual. If he doesn't want his canopy to be clear glass, he should just take off his windshield wiper while everyone throws mud at him.



Oh my god, blah blah blah, aesthetics, this woman can't convince me that she has megajoules of firepower, just look at her attire! Someone get her a habit so she can go to the convent! Let her pack a few dozen pounds and she wouldn't look out of place in Victorian England! LOL!

Sarevok's spouting a bigass style versus substance fallacy. He should provide quantifications and calculations, or else he can just STFU, that less-worth fuckpalming tautard. Concession accepted QED.

[Whiskey144]

Again, any sort of FTL drive that doesn't send me through SUPER HELL does not strike me as a bad thing. Call me crazy, and Iknow that you make good points in your previous post, but... It's one thing for Imperial Guardsmen, or Inquisitors, or even Space Marines to go through the Warp when the extremely fickle imperial technology (such as the Geller Field) fails- they have weapons, artifacts, and techpriests to back them up and keep them alive long enough to drop out of the Warp. But for civilian vessels, an Etherdrive might be a little more attractive in terms of "Not having my soul slowly eaten, crapped out, devoured, and re-crapped for eternity."

I suppose that you could argue this; the reasoning would be very difficult to refute.

Tau > Imperium for the simple reason their stuff actually looks like it was made in the future. Most of the Imperium's kit and architecture looks like it came from 13th century France. Seriously flying cathedrals ? No amount of calcs is going to convince it has TERATONZ of firepower. And the Imperial Guard ? I don't care what the fluff says, these guys would look old fashioned when fighting alongside Napoleons troops.

Seriously aesthetics is a huge part of science fiction. And the Tau got that very important element of fiction down right much better. You cant criticize GW for wanking them when their stuff actually looks sleek, futuristic and advanced. It's far easier to buy a Tau Crisis suit being a advanced weapon system. Unlike a space marine that looks like medieval knight complete with swords !

Don't get me wrong. I just want GW to update their artwork. They are no longer a tiny company that cant afford anything more than blocky tabletop models. They should redesign the Imperium armies while keeping true to the spirit of the old editions.

So you want GW to go against the IP they've made. Well, good luck with that /sarcasm.

Seriously? Sarevok is complaining about the Baroque/Gothic style of Imperial space ships and says the aesthetics make them seem weak and somehow didn't notice the huge overall size, massive engines and titanic gun batteries those things mount? That's not style over substance, that's focusing on the style and completely missing the substance. Tau tech looks shiny, smooth, and like it should be displayed at a tech show. Imperial tech looks like it's been issued by Space Russia to fight Space World War Two. Now there's a lot of things that come to mind when Russian tech in WW2 come up, but "ineffective" isn't one of them.

To true; the best example is the lasgun vs the pulse rifle. The lasgun's powerpacks can be recharged in sunlight or by throwing it into far, while the pulse rifle requires a dedicated ammunition supply.

[Black Admiral]

To true; the best example is the lasgun vs the pulse rifle. The lasgun's powerpacks can be recharged in sunlight or by throwing it into far, while the pulse rifle requires a dedicated ammunition supply.

If you're really desperate, yes, it is possible to recharge a lasgun powerpack by bunging it into a fire. But you'd have to be really desperate; doing that reduces the amount of energy the powerpack can store, reduces its service life, and noticeably increases the chances of it suffering a catastrophic misfire (i.e., exploding).

[Agent Sorchus]

As to the Ether drives, I thought that they couldn't go deeper into the warp due to the tau's lack of psychic presence. Wouldn't the increased psy presence of humanity just take the ship using an etherdrive deeper into the warp anyway? SO the great 'advantage' of etherdrive seems likely to be irrelevant to humanity.

[Sidewinder]

Imperial tech looks like it's been issued by Space Russia to fight Space World War Two. Now there's a lot of things that come to mind when Russian tech in WW2 come up, but "ineffective" isn't one of them.

I'd prefer Imperial warships to look like they were there to fight Space Guadacanal or even Space Jutland, with the main battery in rotating turrets, not fixed and able to fire broadsides only. It's space, with enemies able to attack from all directions, not the warp-damned Age of Sail.

[Whiskey144]

As to the Ether drives, I thought that they couldn't go deeper into the warp due to the tau's lack of psychic presence. Wouldn't the increased psy presence of humanity just take the ship using an etherdrive deeper into the warp anyway? SO the great 'advantage' of etherdrive seems likely to be irrelevant to humanity.

IIRC the not-all-the-way-into-the-Warp nature of Etherdrive has to do with the fact that it was reverse-engineered from an unknown alien craft on a moon orbiting the Tau homeworld.

However, the advantages of Etherdrive are completely negated by one thing: ship design. Imperial ships have a specific design mantra already, one that's been in place for longer than the Tau have existed as a technological species. For Etherdrives to be really competitive with Imperial Warp drives, the hull form has to be optimized (not unlike ST warp field geometry optimization).

From a logistics perspective, it simply isn't going to happen. Retooling shipyards to produce a vastly different hullform would be a huge waste of resources, especially considering that some of those merchant ships have to travel far, as they supply far-flung battlefleets and armies.

Out-of-universe, though, the obvious reason against this is that this would mean that the Imperial merchant marine would then look like the Tau navy models offered by Forgeworld.

[NecronLord]

I'd prefer Imperial warships to look like they were there to fight Space Guadacanal or even Space Jutland, with the main battery in rotating turrets, not fixed and able to fire broadsides only. It's space, with enemies able to attack from all directions, not the warp-damned Age of Sail.

Firstly, a goodly chunk of the big guns are turreted.

Second, do you know anything about the reasons why turreted guns were developed - from the USS Monitor on to the present day - and offered an advantage? It's not just that they provided an advantage in terms of field of fire, it's that a smaller number of shots were needed. It is reasonable that the small cheap and ineffective guns on a 40k ship are the ones that don't get the turret treatment and the one-shot ship-killers do. That is what all sources depict.