Hyperspace Tactics

[lordofchange13]

In the Star Wars universe hyperspace travel is very cheep and efficient, sometimes allowing travel across the galaxy in days. I know that technology exists that can detect ships as there in hyperspace transit. But i have never herd of a weapon that exists in normal space that can attach and hopefully destroy ships in hyperspace, this seems to me a major flaw in interstellar warfare, yes there are ways to make it so ships can use hyperspace at certain points, but these devices(interdiction field) are expensive and can only effect a relatively small area of space. So i am wondering what keeps a hyperspace(or similar FTL space)capitol ship from jumping in to a planets orbit, or flying through solar system defense satellite with out fear of retribution until after exiting? Please tell me if I'm missing something.

[Master_Baerne]

Mass shadows. Realspace objects project 'mass shadows' into hyperspace, and collision between a mass shadow and a ship is almost always fatal.

[lordofchange13]

Are there weapons that can produce artificial mass shadows, or are they strictly natural?

[Batman]

Yes? Does the term 'interdictor cruiser' ring a bell? These things have been part of Wars continuity for only what, two or or more decades?

[lordofchange13]

Yes I do know they exists( i even mentioned them in the main post), but i read from the wookiepedia article that they require large amounts of power with relatively small range. and I'm asking more along the lines of a device that could destroy ships while there still in hyperspace, also I'm asking about any franchise that uses something similar to hyperspace(quantum field,Z space,slipstream,or the warp). The Indictor field only makes ships drop out.

[Imperial528]

I've never seen this, but maybe if a ship in hyperspace somehow rammed a second ship...?

[lordofchange13]

I've never seen this, but maybe if a ship in hyperspace somehow rammed a second ship...?

I do not know about star wars hyperspace, but Halos slipstream science says that matter can not interact with each other out side of there technomagic stabilizer field around the ship. also in a lot of scifi you can not steer while in hyperspace, you have to drop out then make a coarse change.

[Adam Reynolds]

I've never seen this, but maybe if a ship in hyperspace somehow rammed a second ship...?

It would presumably do a rather large amount of damage. In the ROTS ICS, the Quaestor, a Republic battle cruiser accidentally rammed the Seperatist world of Pammant while in hyperspace, fracturing it to its core and polluting the atmosphere with radiation, causing it to be uninhabitable. Although this is non canon, it is also featured in Mike's fanfic Conquest where a Corellian Corvette is able to hyperspace ram a Star Destroyer and destroy it.

Yes I do know they exists( i even mentioned them in the main post), but i read from the wookiepedia article that they require large amounts of power with relatively small range. and I'm asking more along the lines of a device that could destroy ships while there still in hyperspace, also I'm asking about any franchise that uses something similar to hyperspace(quantum field,Z space,slipstream,or the warp). The Indictor field only makes ships drop out.

While that is true, it can be used to ambush someone in hyperspace. This is done in Heir to the Empire to ambush Luke. There is also the related technology of Pulse Mass mines, featured in the Courtship of Princess Leia, used by the Hapans. These can be used to prevent an enemy from fleeing to hyperspace, however they have the duel effect of preventing the attacker from fleeing as well, fitting with the ruthless tactics favored by Hapes. In addition the hyperlanes can be mined to cause starships to drop from hyperspace, this tactic is commonly used by pirates in more remote regions of the galaxy during the Old Republic.

from here: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=131968

He thought he knew what had happened. Pirates sometimes mined the shipping lanes. When the ship hit a mine, the hyperdrive blew, and the ship would drop back out of hyperspace.
As it did, the pirates would open fire, destroying the ship’s weapons and engines so swiftly that unwary travelers seldom had time to react.
Then the pirates would send boarding parties out to strip anything they could from their victims.
A miner transport like the Monument didn’t have much worth stealing, but the pirates wouldn’t know that - not until they’d blown it to pieces and searched through the rubble.

However none of these techniques can be used to destroy something in hyperspace. It appears that the best that can be done in to force someone out of hyperspace into an ambush.

[StrikaAmaru]

I've never seen this, but maybe if a ship in hyperspace somehow rammed a second ship...?

It would presumably do a rather large amount of damage. In the ROTS ICS, the Quaestor, a Republic battle cruiser accidentally rammed the Seperatist world of Pammant while in hyperspace, fracturing it to its core and polluting the atmosphere with radiation, causing it to be uninhabitable. Although this is non canon, it is also featured in Mike's fanfic Conquest where a Corellian Corvette is able to hyperspace ram a Star Destroyer and destroy it.

I can see why it's noncannon: this is a terrible game-breaker. A single corvette has just effectively replaced the Death Star; a Corvette destroying a Star Destroyer made starfighters obsolete and the Imperial Fleet a liability: the Rebellion can make a few tens of thousand unmanned probes and annihilate the fleet in an afternoon. Not to start about the random backwater nut who decides to do the same with inhabited planets.

[EDIT] misplaced [/quote] tag.

[EDIT #2] If this capability would exist in-universe, it would fundamentally alter (hyper)space travel; closest equivalent I could think of is the Schlock Mercenary universe, with interdictor fields stretching out for light-hours away from potential targets, energy consumption be damned.

[lordofchange13]

it can be used to ambush someone in hyperspace. This is done in Heir to the Empire to ambush Luke. There is also the related technology of Pulse Mass mines, featured in the Courtship of Princess Leia, used by the Hapans. These can be used to prevent an enemy from fleeing to hyperspace, however they have the duel effect of preventing the attacker from fleeing as well, fitting with the ruthless tactics favored by Hapes. In addition the hyperlanes can be mined to cause starships to drop from hyperspace, this tactic is commonly used by pirates in more remote regions of the galaxy during the Old Republic.

Finished re reading the hyperspace article from wookipedia. It writes that mass shadows of planets destroy starships is they ever meet. some of the gravity devices say they can produce planet level gravity wells (which i asume would have the same effect in hyperspace as natural mass), have they ever been used to destroy ships? can a star ship detect mass after theve already begun there journy?

[Sarevok]

Gravity wells merely pull ships out of hyperspace not destroy them.

[StrikaAmaru]

(double post; sorry about it.
I wanted to edit my above post to replace "corvette" with "Republic battle cruiser" as the quote says, and didn't notice the edit window had closed.)

[Eternal_Freedom]

I think you've missed something lordofchange, it just about everything I've read Interdictor cruisers, and other gavity well projectors, stop ships from jumping as well as pulling them out.

Also, in "Dark Tide II: Ruin," the Corusca Rainbow, a standard Interdictor cruiser that defected to the Republic in X-Wing: Rogue Squadron/Wedge/s Gambit (not sure exactly which), is said to produce a mass shadow equivalent to "a good sized planet."

And, logically, starships MUST be able to detect gravity wells once they've started the journey, because AFAIK the "drop out of hyperspace" thing is a safety feature upon reaching a gravity well.

finally, to answer the OP, in "Tyrant's Test," Major Sil Soranen of the Black Sword Command recounts to Nil Sparr how he was part of an experimental group looking to drop bombs and such from hyperspace, and found that the only way to move from realspace to hyperspace and back again was to use a hyperdrive.

[Uraniun235]

Yes? Does the term 'interdictor cruiser' ring a bell? These things have been part of Wars continuity for only what, two or or more decades?

Guess what? Some people *gasp* haven't read the books.

[Connor MacLeod]

Interdictors, FTL comms and sensors (detect it long before its coming in) and lots of rules/guidelines for FTL travel in/around solar systems.

Alternate appraoches can also include: Control over the power sources governing FTL travel (direct or indirect), and generally having the bulk of people rely on far slower or far more limited (in terms of flexibility - eg "hyperspace lanes") means of travel.

[Adam Reynolds]

I can see why it's noncannon: this is a terrible game-breaker. A single corvette has just effectively replaced the Death Star; a Corvette destroying a Star Destroyer made starfighters obsolete and the Imperial Fleet a liability: the Rebellion can make a few tens of thousand unmanned probes and annihilate the fleet in an afternoon. Not to start about the random backwater nut who decides to do the same with inhabited planets.

Did you miss the first half of my post? This exact same phenomenon was also mentioned in the ICS for ROTS. If a battle cruiser can destroy a planet then a Corellian Corvette can likely cripple* a star destroyer, I was merely in the bad habit of using Conquest as a reference. In addition, ANH shows that Han is worried about collisions with subluminal objects, if subluminal objects can affect superluminal objects then the reverse must also be true. There is also the current Clone Wars series, in the episode Jedi Crash, a Republic cruiser is hit and has a malfunction of its hyperdrive causing it to jump to hyperspace inside the planet they are on the crew of the Venator class they were preparing to dock with was extremely concerned about what would happen if the two ships collided. They later almost collide with a star as their safety features are presumably disabled by the malfunction.

While it is possible to hyperspace ram targets, due to the high levels of firepower that Star Wars ships contain, it is not as effective as it would seem relative to other weapons in existence. Any time that a Star Wars capital ship fires upon a planet, it is the equivalent of using weapons of mass destruction, potentially unleashing gigatons of energy. Star Wars level hand grenades have the firepower to destroy entire skyscrapers as seen in Shadows of the Empire, starfighters can unleash kilotons of energy. Hyperspace ramming is simply one of many ways in which a great deal of damage can be caused. Regarding the Death Star, it is specifically designed to destroy fortress worlds, those which contain planetary shields and potentially interdictor technology as well. We also don't how planetary shields interact with hyperpsace, though Dark Empire suggests that have some ability to block attackers given that the Millennium Falcon must jump to hyperspace inside the gravity well of a planet before the planetary shield of Byss closes on them.

*In the scene from Conquest I was referring to, the Corellian Corvette only took off the command tower of a Star Destroyer, similarly to what the A-wing did to the Executor in ROTJ. I misspoke when I stated that the Star Destroyer was destroyed.

[EDIT #2] If this capability would exist in-universe, it would fundamentally alter (hyper)space travel; closest equivalent I could think of is the Schlock Mercenary universe, with interdictor fields stretching out for light-hours away from potential targets, energy consumption be damned.

The capability does exist in universe. The lack of usage of this tactic is presumably due to the same restrictions that exist with the usage of nuclear weapons on Earth. While it might be possible to use hyperspace ramming offensively, doing so in warfare would be akin to nuclear war. Also why would interdiction fields have to stretch out for light-hours? Wouldn't preventing the enemy from entering your planet in hyperspace be enough? Also the technology to detect and force ships from hyperspace exists as shown by Dark Empire with the Imperial Hyperspace Security Net.

Interdictors, FTL comms and sensors (detect it long before its coming in) and lots of rules/guidelines for FTL travel in/around solar systems.

Alternate appraoches can also include: Control over the power sources governing FTL travel (direct or indirect), and generally having the bulk of people rely on far slower or far more limited (in terms of flexibility - eg "hyperspace lanes") means of travel.

I would think that this is likely the case that most travelers are limited to the hyperspace lanes. Rebel fighters lack true navigation computers, instead relying on pre-programmed coordinates. It is likely that most non governmental vessels are like this, with the main exception being smuggler ships and other below the radar vessels.

And, logically, starships MUST be able to detect gravity wells once they've started the journey, because AFAIK the "drop out of hyperspace" thing is a safety feature upon reaching a gravity well.

This is backed up by the two examples I have shown, Dark Empire and Jedi Crash.

finally, to answer the OP, in "Tyrant's Test," Major Sil Soranen of the Black Sword Command recounts to Nil Sparr how he was part of an experimental group looking to drop bombs and such from hyperspace, and found that the only way to move from realspace to hyperspace and back again was to use a hyperdrive.

While this is true, objects in hyperspace can affect objects in real space and vice versa.

[lordofchange13]

logically, starships MUST be able to detect gravity wells once they've started the journey, because AFAIK the "drop out of hyperspace" thing is a safety feature upon reaching a gravity well.

finally, to answer the OP, in "Tyrant's Test," Major Sil Soranen of the Black Sword Command recounts to Nil Sparr how he was part of an experimental group looking to drop bombs and such from hyperspace, and found that the only way to move from realspace to hyperspace and back again was to use a hyperdrive.

Really?, i always thought that it was because hyperspace didn't exist when in a gravity well, but the fail safe makes more sense. and yes i know people use hyperspace as a delivery system for weapon, for example the Galaxy Gun, but I'm asking are there weapons that can hit ships while there still in hyperspace? the only weapon I've heard of is a Forerunner gun from the Halo universe.

[Imperial528]

It might be possible that two ships could collide while in hyperspace, but I'd imagine it'd have to be a pre-planned sort of thing, since we've seen no evidence of tracking an object in hyperspace to the sort of detail required to actually ram a ship in hyperspace.

Also, how does Halo factor in here? IIRC the Forerunners used slipspace for FTL just like the UNSC and the Covenant do. And I've never seen any mention of hyperspace or any other dimension aside from slipspace (maybe subspace) in the Halo franchise.

[lordofchange13]

It might be possible that two ships could collide while in hyperspace, but I'd imagine it'd have to be a pre-planned sort of thing, since we've seen no evidence of tracking an object in hyperspace to the sort of detail required to actually ram a ship in hyperspace.

Also, how does Halo factor in here? IIRC the Forerunners used slipspace for FTL just like the UNSC and the Covenant do. And I've never seen any mention of hyperspace or any other dimension aside from slipspace (maybe subspace) in the Halo franchise.

when i wrote the question i used "Hyperspace" because it's the most common name for the FTL dimension travel trope. most of them work similar to each other excluding the Babylon 5 and Larry Niven version of Hyperspace. With the only hyperspace weapon i know of, is the forerunner Line Installation 1-4 From Halo, and as understand it slipstream works similar to star wars hyperspace.

[Sarevok]

Not really, slipstream looks and functions more like Babylon 5 hyperspace.

Halo slipspace


B5 hyperspace



SW hyperspace



In SW you only see the visual effect of a hyperjump when the instant lightspeed is crossed, after the ship has transitioned into FTL state the outside looks similar to realspace instead of a glowing tunnel of space-time like B5 or Halo. There are many explanations for SW hyperspace but in general it is believed that the ship never leaves our universe but instead converts it's mass into a form that can travel faster than light such as tachyon particles. B5 and Halo slipstram are different from this. They both work by tunneling into a parallel dimension where distances are shorter than corresponding realspace coordinates.

[Imperial528]

In the SW EU Hyperspace travel is described as being inside a blue/white space in appearance, but no one really knows if it is a seperate dimension, what being a different state of matter looks like, or just the appearance of the universe at FTL speeds, according to wookiepedia, but then it is a wiki, so take that how you will. But it's silly to assume that a weapon that affects Slipspace would affect hyperspace even if they are both parallel dimensions, especially since Halo slipspace is described as being empty in every Halo novel I've read concerning it.

[bz249]

If subluminal objects can affect superluminal objects then the reverse must also be true.

If a train can kill a human, who is sitting on the track, than the said human should be able to wreck the train.

If a knife can cut through butter, than the butter must be able to destroy the knife also.

So as a general rule, the fact that subluminal objects are capable of destroying a ship in hyperspace tell nothing about whether a ship in hyperspace can inflict any damage on a realspace object. Ships in hyperspace might be wavelike which can de dispersed by a massive body, or the forces keeping together a bunch of atoms are somewhat weaker in hyperspace, thus any outside interaction is really dangerous... or whatever. There can be a zillion of reasons why the interaction between hyperspace and realspace objects are totally asymmetric.

[Sarevok]

In the SW EU Hyperspace travel is described as being inside a blue/white space in appearance, but no one really knows if it is a seperate dimension, what being a different state of matter looks like, or just the appearance of the universe at FTL speeds, according to wookiepedia, but then it is a wiki, so take that how you will. But it's silly to assume that a weapon that affects Slipspace would affect hyperspace even if they are both parallel dimensions, especially since Halo slipspace is described as being empty in every Halo novel I've read concerning it.

Halo Slipstream is affected by gravity though, just like hyperdrive. Ships normally can not enter slipspace while inside a planets gravity well.

SW Interdictor technology should work against the slipstream drive.

[Sarevok]

There is sufficient circumstantial evidence to believe that hyperspace ramming is not possible or is not effective against prepared foes. Interstellar warfare in SW between large powers often devolve into planetary siege operations because of ubiquitous shield technology. Even rudimentary theater shields can hold off bombardment from a SSD task force. This has driven the need for weapons like superlasers which crack theater or planetary scale shields. If objects in hyperspace could easily destroy planets or ships there would not be go to extreme lengths such as creating Death Star type planet killers.

[Imperial528]

I think that they can enter slipspace in a gravity well, IIRC, it's just that UNSC ships don't have very powerful drives to do it effectively, and their drives aren't accurate enough to safely emerge close to a planet. The Covenant, on the other hand, can enter slipspace in a gravity well, even from the surface.

It's also established that objects in Halo slipspace aren't affected by objects in realspace. However, if an interdictor could prevent them from creating an entry point into slipspace, you could definitely trap them.