Gundams vs. the Empire

[Night_stalker]

So then, how is it different from a normal Gundam?

[Simon_Jester]

So then, how is it different from a normal Gundam?

...Umm... things work out according to the pilot's hopes more often, because the buttons are better laid out?

[OmegaChief]

Maybe the buttons are labled in the Turn-A giving the pilot a massive advantage?

[Night_stalker]

Maybe

[Havok]

Aww c'mon guys, you didn't even give him a chance.

Oh an D13, Hawks is just mocking the way that giant robot fanboys think giant robots are infinitely better than all other war machines, because... well... just because.

[Night_stalker]

Rule of Cool in their eyes subverts all other rules, including the laws of physics, and reality.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Given the majority of Gundam tech is hard sci-fi (bar the magic Minovsky particles, psychics in certain series and power sources in cases like Gundam 00), pitting them against the magitechnology of a galactic power that can cross a galaxy larger than the Milky Way in hours is kinda silly.

Sometimes silly is fun though. Maybe Gunbuster would be better...

[lord Martiya]

That, or Legend of Galactic Heroes. I can't recall many things in Japanese sci-fi that could compete with the Empire, apart the Grand Cannon at short range...

Gundam, like fellow real robot show Macross, is a low power universe more suited to matchups with things like Babylon 5 (and even there Gundam'd still lose, because of their lack of capital firepower and FTL mobility).

You know, having the original Mobile Suit Gundam forces in B5 would be fun, if nothing else to see the Minbari curse when THEY can't aim and the enemy can shoot at them... A good laugh before they destroy the Earth Federation Space Force by simply shooting so much they're guaranteed to hit (and destroy) something...

[Ford Prefect]

So then, how is it different from a normal Gundam?

It's RIDICULOUSLY MORE POWERFUL.

Sometimes silly is fun though. Maybe Gunbuster would be better...

That might be a little unfair to the Empire, Valdemar.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

I can't recall many things in Japanese sci-fi that could compete with the Empire, apart the Grand Cannon at short range...

Off the top of my head, Ideon and Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann are likely both capable of over-powering the Empire in terms of raw power with ease, but of course they're kind of ridiculous. Ideon has a sword that can cut planets in half, TTGL fights with galaxy-destroying power and punches holes in space-time. Neither is hard sci-fi at all, and the latter especially is difficult to quantify with the whole "more powerful depending on the pilot's will to fight" thing... but then according to the data books it's ten million light-years tall. You don't really need more quantification than that. Honestly, Gurren Lagann just gets silly.

But yeah, Super Robo Animes can range from fairly unimpressive to literally, obscenely god-like levels of uber-power. I'm not especially familiar with many of them, but I have friends who are, and some of the things I have heard just make me stare and shake my head in disbelief.

[Ford Prefect]

TTGL fights with galaxy-destroying power and punches holes in space-time.

For like one episode out of twenty seven. The vast majority of Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann involves mecha which are not terribly more impressive than One Year War era Mobile Suits. The Arc/Chouginga/Tengen Toppa/Chou Tengen Toppa ganmen appear for a fraction of the series run.

[CaptHawkeye]

I just think the black/white difference between the character mechs and "lol redshirt mechs" is pretty funny. Every time mecha series like Gundam are discussed someone points out how the Gundams are basically super weapons and the thugs all get complete shit. It just feels so counter-dramatic. I get the impression Japanese media is still going through its "80s action movies" stage.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

TTGL fights with galaxy-destroying power and punches holes in space-time.

For like one episode out of twenty seven. The vast majority of Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann involves mecha which are not terribly more impressive than One Year War era Mobile Suits. The Arc/Chouginga/Tengen Toppa/Chou Tengen Toppa ganmen appear for a fraction of the series run.

This is absolutely true, and you won't see me arguing the point. I was just referring to the Tengen Toppa mecha itself and not saying that any and all forms of Gurren Lagann are that potent. Frankly, one episode with Tengen Toppa in it was more than enough.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I just think the black/white difference between the character mechs and "lol redshirt mechs" is pretty funny. Every time mecha series like Gundam are discussed someone points out how the Gundams are basically super weapons and the thugs all get complete shit. It just feels so counter-dramatic. I get the impression Japanese media is still going through its "80s action movies" stage.

More often than not, the Gundams are the minority, so they need to be specialised, super machines able to punch above their weight, like spec-ops soldiers. A group of well equipped Royal Marines or Rangers will do better than your average Taliban fighter, hell, look at Black Hawk Down's kill ratio. The Gundams are just the best of the best, but they aren't invincible, and indeed, many fail and get destroyed or KIA even. That, however, is more an excuse to make a new model. New models mean more merchandise and more merchandise means more dollari.

[Ford Prefect]

I just think the black/white difference between the character mechs and "lol redshirt mechs" is pretty funny. Every time mecha series like Gundam are discussed someone points out how the Gundams are basically super weapons and the thugs all get complete shit. It just feels so counter-dramatic. I get the impression Japanese media is still going through its "80s action movies" stage.

You're only saying this because you basically have no idea what you're talking about. The difference between a Gundam and another Mobile Suit is often not as great as you would imagine. Even something like Gundam 00, where the director deliberately set out to make the Gundams magical super robots in comparison to 'normal' Mobile Suits, had the Gundams matched in one on one battles against ace pilots, and at the end of the series the tech level between factions is relatively even. In the original series the titular Gundam, though much better than your average Zaku at the beginning of the series, ends up somewhat better than average, and at best equal to high end Zeon suits like the Dom and Gelgoog. In Zeta Gundam the Gundam Mark II is rapidly outclassed by new Mobile Suits produced by the antagonists depsite being, in universe, a revolution in design. The Victory Gundam was never outright superior to the grunts around it, and it was only so successful because its pilot was a creative cheater. Even Gundam Wing, infamous for how heavily character shielded its Gundam pilots are, had some chick in a Leo fight evenly with Chang Wufei in his Shenlong Gundam. I could go on endlessly: the premise that Gundams are better than the norm is true, the idea that they're totally unstoppable in every series is nonsense.

EDIT: As a general rule across continuity, if you are good enough to rate being called an 'ace pilot', then the technological gap is essentially irrelevant. Char Aznable kicked the shit out of Amuro and his Gundam, despite the performance difference between the Gundam and Char's Zaku.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Indeed. If you suck at piloting, then even if you had something like an F-22, you might still lose to someone in a MiG-21 who knows what they're doing. Gundam pilots are Top Guns and because of that, they get access to such machines because they're less likely to become smouldering craters inside of five minutes than if some conscript was put in one after barely being decent with a Zaku or Leo.

Basically, if your first reaction to seeing a brightly coloured Shogun-esque robot is "AARGH! IT'S A GUNDAAAAAM!" then you're as good as dead.

[Darksider]

Basically, if your first reaction to seeing a brightly coloured Shogun-esque robot is "AARGH! IT'S A GUNDAAAAAM!" then you're as good as dead.

Are there any examples in the Gundam media where semi-skilled but non super-ace pilots in regular Mobile Suits attempt to use competent group tactics to take down a superior pilot in a Gundam?


Actually, is there any example of anyone who isn't in a gundam using competent group or small unit tactics at all? It seems like all the redshirt mechs ever do is charge in like retards.

[lance]

In one of the series a bunch of Zakus get taken out by Bazookas. Its been a while so it might not be as impressive as I recall.
It was the series that ended with the main character missing an a couple of limbs at the end.

[Ford Prefect]

Are there any examples in the Gundam media where semi-skilled but non super-ace pilots in regular Mobile Suits attempt to use competent group tactics to take down a superior pilot in a Gundam?

Actually, is there any example of anyone who isn't in a gundam using competent group or small unit tactics at all? It seems like all the redshirt mechs ever do is charge in like retards.

Uh, yeah, it happens all the time. Even Gundam Wing had the grunts doing stuff like encirclement and ambushes, making use of close air support, combined arms etc. I mean, if your entire experience of the Gundam franchise is Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Destiny, where standing still is the preferred tactic for most, then you could come to that conclusion.

In one of the series a bunch of Zakus get taken out by Bazookas. Its been a while so it might not be as impressive as I recall.
It was the series that ended with the main character missing an a couple of limbs at the end.

Shiro takes out a damaged Zaku using a rocket launcher in The 08th MS Team, yeah. There's also official artwork of Feddie infantry with a rocket launcher about to fire on a Dom.

[Commander 598]

Basically, if your first reaction to seeing a brightly coloured Shogun-esque robot is "AARGH! IT'S A GUNDAAAAAM!" then you're as good as dead.

Are there any examples in the Gundam media where semi-skilled but non super-ace pilots in regular Mobile Suits attempt to use competent group tactics to take down a superior pilot in a Gundam?


Actually, is there any example of anyone who isn't in a gundam using competent group or small unit tactics at all? It seems like all the redshirt mechs ever do is charge in like retards.

In UC? All over. Everywhere else? Less so.

One of the more successful attempts at tactics in a Gundam take down:



Second only to 0080 where the whole series was a calculated Gundam take down that scored better than a mobility kill.

There's also official artwork of Feddie infantry with a rocket launcher about to fire on a Dom.

There's also an entire episode of IGLOO 2 dedicated to taking out a team of Zakus with ATGMs:

[lord Martiya]

Are there any examples in the Gundam media where semi-skilled but non super-ace pilots in regular Mobile Suits attempt to use competent group tactics to take down a superior pilot in a Gundam?

First series, the Black Tri-Stars: the trio, not exceptional per se but very skilled in group, attacked the Gundam and kicked Amuro's ass until Matilda attacked them, enabling Amuro to kill one of them at the cost of her own life.

[Srelex]

There's also official artwork of Feddie infantry with a rocket launcher about to fire on a Dom.

Can we see this?

[lord Martiya]

I forgot another incident in the original series: there was an entire episode dedicated to a group of Zeon INFANTRY from a backward outpost nearly destroying the Gundam by first luring it out of the White Base, then approaching it on hoverbikes and strapping it with very powerful time bombs. As the Zeon soldiers themselves complained, if they got remote-controlled bombs they would have destroyed the Gundam. Instead, the Gundam forced them to run before they could shoot the bombs and make them explode (and they actually managed to destroy the Gundam's shield before being routed), and the White Bas crew managed to deactivate the bombs before they exploded. A failure, but also a clear evidence that a Gundam is not invincible.

[Redleader34]

Unless Gundams can traverse the length of the galaxy in a few DAYS, this isn't going to be anything more than a simple mop up job on the part of the Empire. It will just come down to hit and runs and destroying bases, supplies, whatever... before any Gundams can even respond.

Also from what I know, the Gundam-verse is fairly small in scale as compared to the Empire, which is a galaxy spanning industrial machine with effectively limitless resources. Does Gundam bring anywhere near that type of industrial capacity to the table?

The Empire has planetary shields, which as far as we know, can stop pretty much anything besides a Death Star, so wiping Hawaii out and trying to shoot radiation at a planet seems like a trifling affair do defend against. Assuming that Gundams can even get to the Empire's planets.

Firing at multiple targets at once is childs play, as that is something we can do today. It is nothing to even note.

As for reflecting turbo lasers... I will leave the numbers to others, but that isn't going to do anything against the sheer power that the TLs bring to the table.
A tank can deflect a single rock thrown at it. A tank can not deflect a 10,000lb rock dropped on it. That is what we are talking here.

Also, if you are going to start this type of debate here... you better bring some hard numbers and evidence to the table... Saying 'X can blow up Y' means absolutely fuckall without the numbers to back it up.

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/turn-a/system-a-99.htm
This is mahq a fairly decent fansite with basic abilities and skillsets shown in series.



The ONLY gundam, and this is annoying to use, besides "lol G Gundam" and G Gundam is a series which is based on MARTIAL ARTS KUNG FU FIGHTING... In SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEEEEEEEE

Which could be a threat is Turn A Gundam, and the info on its full power is based on a half translated Japanese master-grade guide which I should bother to get translated by a professional

It is pretty much what would happen if the Culture decided to say "I want a Gundam!"

FUN FACTS ABOUT TURN A / TURN X
-Standard ammunition cannot damage its armour
-Beam weapons are deflected by its I-field
-The Turn A can teleport itself
-Can teleport/ warp it's attacks (it could teleport a beam shot to appear right in an enemy suit's cockpit
-Beam rifle at maximum power is stronger than a Grypps level colony laser
-The Turn A can regenerate pretty much everything.
-The Moonlight Butterfly that destroyed Earth's civilization was at 20% power. At 100% output, it can cover everything from Earth to Jupiter in nanomachines.
-Turn A's chest's multipurpose silo can summon weapons from special "transmission" devices on the Earth set up to send ammunition to the Turn A's silos.
-The teleportation system makes it possible for, as long as there are nanomachines left on either the Turn A or at the special sites, to regenerate everything on the Turn A completely, including the pilot. The teleportation system saves the status of the machine as well as the status/ memories/ DNA information of the pilot, and then transmits it to the relay sites on Earth. As long as there are nanomachines, they can receive regeneration commands, it can be done. Complete regeneration from scratch, however, can take thousands of years
- The Turns were actually meant for Newtypes to pilot, what since they were developed by Newtypes; they have powerful psycommnu systems, allowing them to detect even on their own (ie, without a Newtype) the human life signs in other mobile suits.
-The Turn A's hands are so sensitive they can be used to pick up a regular human-sized bucket of water.
-The Keilas Guilie "Big Cannon" from Victory Gundam, can't even scratch the Turn A, and the Turn X Top can take control of it remotely.
-Turn A's power source are two black hole Degeneracy engines.
-The I-field beam drive system creates a film of particles over the surface of the machine and moves the mechanical parts inside, preventing a need for heavy gears inside. The I-field beam drive is also what is used for propulsion, preventing the need for thrust material.
- The Turn X was actually created outside the solar system and was sent to the moon.
- As seen in the anime, the Turn X is actually capable of draining the energy from basically anything, including the life force of pilots.
- Both Turns have powerful combat systems allowing them to basically enter combat regardless of the pilot's condition

Some of these abilities were seen in series, but most of its bases were dust, due to the sheer age of the bases themselves.

This is pretty much "Culture: the Gundam" but in series it is used for mostly boring things, like moving cows and defending the city. It is funny in that it is the "ULTIMATE MACHINE"
yet it rarely shows off its power.

The next closest I'd say are the G Gundam machines, but they are KUNG FU ACTION MACHINES, POWERED BY MARTIAL ARTS AND NANOMACHINES.

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/g/gf13-017nj2.htm

The hard thing is with no solid numbers on the machine besides "lol action points", you have to look at what it can do in series to even get an idea of its skill. It can go to space on its own power at the least, apparently produce a sort of illusionary copy of itself, and like MANY SHONEN ACTION ANIME characters, produce a limited form of invulnerability by glowing gold.

Devil Gundam will be .. something else to think about, because it is a gigantic monster in a robot shell more or less.

[SAMAS]

Strategically, no. It's still just one unit. One unit that has the ability to destroy SDs, a navy which is fielded against opponents that it expects ought to be able to destroy SDs.

Well, you'd have to find a single Mobile Suit-sized target whose most dangerous weapon has an area of effect measured in Astronomical Units.

Turn A doesn't have the ability to destroy Star Destroyers, it can destroy an entire interplanetary civilization in one go.

But yeah, between that and Turn X, their best bet is still primarily getting the Empire to decide that a continued campaign just isn't worth the expense (and the capabilities of the Turns alone will probably keep that from happening for a while). They could fight off just about any fleet the Empire cares to send, and probably strike a few targets on their own (I feel sorry for any planet the Devil Gundam gets dropped into) and maybe force a cease-fire, but they would not be conquering the Empire (or rather, taking the entire Galaxy) without some serious planning and luck.

Seriously, this is a fairly badly done Vs. anyway.