Dune verse combat makes no sense

[Terralthra]

There are also a lot of things the Sardaukars could have used to greatly delay the Fremen attack. Heck, a secondary line of defence or air power is apparently unknown to them. Yeah, I know, low-tech and all that, but even copters dropping bombs would easily be doable and potentially have devestated the stupid mass charge at the end of the book.

The Fremen nuked the Shield Wall and attacked under the cover of the biggest sandstorm in living memory. Air power was not exactly on the menu.

[Serafina]

The Fremen nuked the Shield Wall and attacked under the cover of the biggest sandstorm in living memory. Air power was not exactly on the menu.

I would have been usefull for attacking them while they gathered, which is virtually inevitable for a army of that size.

[Stofsk]

The Fremen nuked the Shield Wall and attacked under the cover of the biggest sandstorm in living memory. Air power was not exactly on the menu.

I would have been usefull for attacking them while they gathered, which is virtually inevitable for a army of that size.

The Fremen are quite able to take out aircraft with rockets. Paul and Stilgar and a troop of Fremen do exactly that to a smuggler operation which happened to have been lead by Gurney Halleck. Also, the Fremen massing their forces likely would have occurred without anyone noticing, simply because there aren't air patrols or spotters and the Guild gets bribed with massive spice payments by the Fremen to not put satellites in orbit.

Also Stilgar comments on how Fremen must work together when he chews out Paul on his sandrider initiation. They're not warrior-wanked, but rather commando or guerrilla wanked. It just so happens that Fremen are tough fighters and well adept at personal, one-on-one combat, but on the battlefield they work as a team.

[Crom]

The Fremen are quite able to take out aircraft with rockets. Paul and Stilgar and a troop of Fremen do exactly that to a smuggler operation which happened to have been lead by Gurney Halleck. Also, the Fremen massing their forces likely would have occurred without anyone noticing, simply because there aren't air patrols or spotters and the Guild gets bribed with massive spice payments by the Fremen to not put satellites in orbit.

Also Stilgar comments on how Fremen must work together when he chews out Paul on his sandrider initiation. They're not warrior-wanked, but rather commando or guerrilla wanked. It just so happens that Fremen are tough fighters and well adept at personal, one-on-one combat, but on the battlefield they work as a team.

Spacing Guild interference may be why the Emperor didn't notice the approach of Paul's army on sandworms, now that I think of it.

Fremen society emphasize teamwork. I am under the impression that life on Arrakis was difficult enough to that Fremen culture promoted communal welfare above that of the individual to an extreme, hence the customs like sending the blind into the desert.

W/r/t Fremen wanking, I find it interesting that while they did possess different physiological traits than baseline humans (different intestines for example), they were mostly adaptations for desert environments. Frank Herbert does make the mistake of harsh environment == supersoldiers, but I always rationalized Fremen successes in their campaigns was mostly due to controlling the space lanes.

I mean, the Fremen could simply mobilize a larger army than their opponents.

[Crom]

A bit, but not much in what they called the weirding way. But they were considered a threat to the Sardukar before, and in fact even the Harkonnens silenced any rumors that the Fremen were killing the Sardukar in any number.

Do Fremen Fedaykin seem much less formidable in the time period of Dune Messiah and Children of Dune? Farad'n seemed confident that his reduced Sardaukar could present a viable threat to Leto II. I ask because I wonder if Herbert was backing off from the super-harsh-environment supersoldier thing.

[The Grim Squeaker]

A bit, but not much in what they called the weirding way. But they were considered a threat to the Sardukar before, and in fact even the Harkonnens silenced any rumors that the Fremen were killing the Sardukar in any number.

Do Fremen Fedaykin seem much less formidable in the time period of Dune Messiah and Children of Dune? Farad'n seemed confident that his reduced Sardaukar could present a viable threat to Leto II. I ask because I wonder if Herbert was backing off from the super-harsh-environment supersoldier thing.

Actually, it was due to the return of the old standards for training the Sardukar.

[Stofsk]

W/r/t Fremen wanking, I find it interesting that while they did possess different physiological traits than baseline humans (different intestines for example), they were mostly adaptations for desert environments. Frank Herbert does make the mistake of harsh environment == supersoldiers, but I always rationalized Fremen successes in their campaigns was mostly due to controlling the space lanes.

I mean, the Fremen could simply mobilize a larger army than their opponents.

It helps that everybody underestimated the Fremen to a ridiculous degree, and nobody knew their true numbers until Paul came along and wtfpwned the Emperor. Bear in mind the sandworms likely helped as well.

[Thanas]

There are also a lot of things the Sardaukars could have used to greatly delay the Fremen attack. Heck, a secondary line of defence or air power is apparently unknown to them. Yeah, I know, low-tech and all that, but even copters dropping bombs would easily be doable and potentially have devestated the stupid mass charge at the end of the book.

The Fremen nuked the Shield Wall and attacked under the cover of the biggest sandstorm in living memory. Air power was not exactly on the menu.

They sure as heck did not fight the battle in a sandstorm, for that would mean everybody would be dead.

The Fremen are quite able to take out aircraft with rockets. Paul and Stilgar and a troop of Fremen do exactly that to a smuggler operation which happened to have been lead by Gurney Halleck. Also, the Fremen massing their forces likely would have occurred without anyone noticing, simply because there aren't air patrols or spotters and the Guild gets bribed with massive spice payments by the Fremen to not put satellites in orbit.

No air patrols or spotters is even more retarded, to be honest. This would mean the Empire is too stupid to have even listening posts. And it is not as if the Emperor does not have his own ships.

W/r/t Fremen wanking, I find it interesting that while they did possess different physiological traits than baseline humans (different intestines for example), they were mostly adaptations for desert environments. Frank Herbert does make the mistake of harsh environment == supersoldiers, but I always rationalized Fremen successes in their campaigns was mostly due to controlling the space lanes.

I mean, the Fremen could simply mobilize a larger army than their opponents.

That is the most likely explanation. But note that the Harkonnens alone could mobilize a dozen legions. This would mean 360.000 men right there. Even assuming the Fremen only take half the casualties they inflict (frankly a stupid assumption given past experience of people taking on fixed defences) that would still mean they take close to 180.000 casualties. Nevermind the need for garrisons. In fact, garrisoning the place would be the most problematic.

So where do the hundreds of millions Fremen come from?

A bit, but not much in what they called the weirding way. But they were considered a threat to the Sardukar before, and in fact even the Harkonnens silenced any rumors that the Fremen were killing the Sardukar in any number.

Do Fremen Fedaykin seem much less formidable in the time period of Dune Messiah and Children of Dune? Farad'n seemed confident that his reduced Sardaukar could present a viable threat to Leto II. I ask because I wonder if Herbert was backing off from the super-harsh-environment supersoldier thing.

Actually, it was due to the return of the old standards for training the Sardukar.

It might also be due to numbers. The Fremen must have suffered terrible casualties, or otherwise the single legion of Sardaukars the Emperor was permitted to have left (30.000 men) would be wanked to oblivion in return. One possible explanation (which might be supported by the end conversation in Children of Dune) is that the empire of Paul had simply overextended itself and needed the Corrino prestige and following as well as its men to keep from collapsing.

It is also interesting how during the Golden Path, there are no armies at all left. Only the guard of the God Emperor is left at all. Though IMO Herbert simply lost it after Children of Dune.

[Crom]

W/r/t Fremen wanking, I find it interesting that while they did possess different physiological traits than baseline humans (different intestines for example), they were mostly adaptations for desert environments. Frank Herbert does make the mistake of harsh environment == supersoldiers, but I always rationalized Fremen successes in their campaigns was mostly due to controlling the space lanes.

I mean, the Fremen could simply mobilize a larger army than their opponents.

That is the most likely explanation. But note that the Harkonnens alone could mobilize a dozen legions. This would mean 360.000 men right there. Even assuming the Fremen only take half the casualties they inflict (frankly a stupid assumption given past experience of people taking on fixed defences) that would still mean they take close to 180.000 casualties. Nevermind the need for garrisons. In fact, garrisoning the place would be the most problematic.

So where do the hundreds of millions Fremen come from?

The Harkonnens mobilized a dozen legions prior to Paul's ascension and had the Emperor's backing. After Paul becomes Emperor, I doubt Paul would allow the Spacing Guild to move troops around other than his own.

And after initial conquests, couldn't they just put some kind of weapons platforms in orbit around a planet to keep them in line? I was under the impression the Fremen don't care too much about the Great Convention.

It makes me wonder if Paul's forces would utterly destroy a few resisting planets as an example for the others to fall in line.

As for the hundreds of millions of Fremen, I have no clue. I know there was no census on the Fremen, but I bet that the Fremen population couldn't support those kind of numbers without someone noticing.

Actually, it was due to the return of the old standards for training the Sardukar.

It might also be due to numbers. The Fremen must have suffered terrible casualties, or otherwise the single legion of Sardaukars the Emperor was permitted to have left (30.000 men) would be wanked to oblivion in return. One possible explanation (which might be supported by the end conversation in Children of Dune) is that the empire of Paul had simply overextended itself and needed the Corrino prestige and following as well as its men to keep from collapsing.

It is also interesting how during the Golden Path, there are no armies at all left. Only the guard of the God Emperor is left at all. Though IMO Herbert simply lost it after Children of Dune.

The numbers thing makes sense. I always found it odd but I never got the impression that Paul ever recruited non-Fremen forces, say from Atreides remnants and such.

I like the post-Children books, but they are pretty crazy.

[Thanas]

The Harkonnens mobilized a dozen legions prior to Paul's ascension and had the Emperor's backing. After Paul becomes Emperor, I doubt Paul would allow the Spacing Guild to move troops around other than his own.

No doubt about that, but still if he declares a general crusade I am willing to bet the nobles will fully mobilize. Wouldn't you in their place? And some operational details are made in the second dune book - mentioning three dozen legions iirc on a single operation. So that would be over a million Fremen right there in a single operation.

I really doubt this could be carried out with people from a desert planet.

And after initial conquests, couldn't they just put some kind of weapons platforms in orbit around a planet to keep them in line? I was under the impression the Fremen don't care too much about the Great Convention.

Well, that assumes the Fremen have the resources to do that, considering how expensive weapons technology like that would be and how expensive simple technology is on Arrakis. They could have procured them from Ix, given that Ix apparently was not destroyed and thus likely allied with Paul, but still.

It makes me wonder if Paul's forces would utterly destroy a few resisting planets as an example for the others to fall in line.

He did, Giedi Prime for example.

The numbers thing makes sense. I always found it odd but I never got the impression that Paul ever recruited non-Fremen forces, say from Atreides remnants and such.

Paul did not. The Fish guards however are mentioned to be descendants of both Sardaukar and Fremen.

In the end, there is just no way a single desert planet can support invasion and occupation forces for several dozen noble houses, given each of them owns at least one, if not many planets. And that discounts the large number of minor houses and other factions....

[Uraniun235]

Do they really need to occupy the planets after they're done smashing the militaries of the Great Houses? The impression I get is that the civilians are accustomed to just keeping their heads down and generally not getting involved in the power struggles - so it could be that as long as the new government wasn't cruel, they'd be willing to go along with it, depending on how loyal they were or weren't to their masters.

Do they also need to take every planet of every House? Or do they just need to hit the capital and seize or kill the nobles there?


I can't fully remember, it's been awhile since I read Dune: Messiah, which if I remember right was where most of the information on the crusade came from.

[Samuel]

Fremen society emphasize teamwork. I am under the impression that life on Arrakis was difficult enough to that Fremen culture promoted communal welfare above that of the individual to an extreme, hence the customs like sending the blind into the desert.

Wait, what? Aren't these people who value water so much they have their children claim it from the bodies of the dead? Why would they let the blind die in the desert?

[Crom]

One other thing that I've overlooked that could explain Fremen success in their jihad is that their leader is prescient as well as a human computer. It's surprising that the Fremen ever took heavy casualties with Paul running the show.

Wait, what? Aren't these people who value water so much they have their children claim it from the bodies of the dead? Why would they let the blind die in the desert?

I never thought of that before but that is really weird.

[Gaidin]

No doubt about that, but still if he declares a general crusade I am willing to bet the nobles will fully mobilize. Wouldn't you in their place? And some operational details are made in the second dune book - mentioning three dozen legions iirc on a single operation. So that would be over a million Fremen right there in a single operation.

They can mobilize to their heart's content, in fact they did mostly for the end of the first book. They're not doing anything about Paul in a concerted fashion because Paul has the only ftl travel in the universe by the balls.

[Batman]

Maybe the care and feeding of the blind outweigh the value of the water in their bodies but they don't quite have it in them to simply murderize those people to collect it? It's one thing to collect from the already dead and another to actually kill them for it.
Mind, you, what Dune books I read I read once and a long time ago so...

[Uraniun235]

Maybe it's just an irrational religious belief?

[Bakustra]

When it comes to the Jihad, I never got the idea that the Fremen invaded all the planets of the Imperium. They sterilized ninety worlds and "demoralized" five hundred others, with a death toll of ninety-one billion all round. This suggests that the Fremen only invaded a relatively small percentage of worlds (the Imperium had over 13,000 planets immediately post-Butlerian Jihad, and by the post-Scattering era, the "Old Empire" had in the ballpark of a million planets. Quite the wide range!) compared to the Imperium as a whole, or at least devastated a tiny percentage only. Granted, we still run into the problem of the Fremen still lacking in numbers (though much of their kill ratio probably came from the sterilizations and other orbital bombardment), but it becomes less severe.

[septesix]

As for the hundreds of millions of Fremen, I have no clue. I know there was no census on the Fremen, but I bet that the Fremen population couldn't support those kind of numbers without someone noticing.

Dune actually has a very large population of Freman beyond the great desert. No one ever notice it because few had though that Freman could be such a large population and none had bother venture beyond the Great Desert to look for them. Also, Freman bribed the Space Guild to prevent all attempt of orbital detection to keep their presence secret. Of course, there never was a firm number given for their population. But it was by no means just a few small nomadic tribes.

[Ghost Rider]

As for the hundreds of millions of Fremen, I have no clue. I know there was no census on the Fremen, but I bet that the Fremen population couldn't support those kind of numbers without someone noticing.

Dune actually has a very large population of Freman beyond the great desert. No one ever notice it because few had though that Freman could be such a large population and none had bother venture beyond the Great Desert to look for them. Also, Freman bribed the Space Guild to prevent all attempt of orbital detection to keep their presence secret. Of course, there never was a firm number given for their population. But it was by no means just a few small nomadic tribes.

Hawat gave numbers of 10 million and even he claimed that was a high number. This is from essentially a first hand source of Duncan giving a head count from a large stietch and extrapolating the number of possible stietches and then giving even further speculation of spreading this by doubling his initial assessment.

[Stofsk]

One thing people are forgetting about the Fremen Crusade/Jihad is that after the events in Dune, Paul has a total monopoly on interstellar space travel. He has the Guild by the balls.

In that sense, he doesn't need a huge army of Fremen for anything other than guaranteed victories, for the most part.

[Gaidin]

One thing people are forgetting about the Fremen Crusade/Jihad is that after the events in Dune, Paul has a total monopoly on interstellar space travel. He has the Guild by the balls.

In that sense, he doesn't need a huge army of Fremen for anything other than guaranteed victories, for the most part.

This also plays to his victory at the end of Dune. He was able to get in and get control of the guild while the Sardaukar were the only real presence on the ground. Step one for the Guild being owned him was to basically send everyone home.

[Ghost Rider]

One of the most interesting parts, though of Herbert's design, is that Paul didn't just control travel...he controlled virtually everything through the melange.

Aside from a military perspective, he controlled not only trade but even the value of your object by his monopoly of CHOAM. He controlled the way other houses saw you, your relative power compared to others, and with the two major factiosn bowing to him a massive amount of information and knowledge. Combine that with his monstrous religion, he controlled a good deal of your people. Worse still he controlled anyone of real power through a narcotic that they were addicted to and needed to propagate their own power.

Sure, the BG and other factions were against him, they showed definite elements of being more or less whispering, and even then only after trying to break the one thing that made it so. Though the silliest part is in doing so they wouldn't really break his control until many generations of production and that still meant the entire operation needed to be secret until then because of the sheer variety of ways he could destroy a single planet's worth of people.

It's rather pervasive how much he dominated in the lives of everyone, which brings the irony of his lament of the people of regular lives saying his name in any of their rituals...be it fucking, eating or raising a pillar. Of course they would, he controlled and instituted himself more then any mere Emperor.

[Chris OFarrell]

Franky, on Dune, I never understood why the hell the Freeman didn't get AK47's or something equally low tech but utterly deadly issued as a standard issue weapon, given the lack of shields on planet. Instead they got stupid spring loaded dart guns of all things to use! And of course their uber Crysknives...

Because they were still dealing with the shields, and when they weren't they were good enough anyway that it was a moot point. In the major cities shields were still commonplace, as the worms were out in the desert where the harvesting was done.

Not really. There were very limited uses of shield technology on Dune, even in the cities. The Atredies only used a shield on their house. Even at the end of the novel, the Emperor only had a shield projected across the landing field where his ship had landed.

And I'm talking about in the desert, THATS where most of the fighting took place, where shields were of no use. The Sardaukar sent a whole extermination campaign across the planet after the Barron took the planet back for example. And Rabban tries to carry on after the Sarduakar head back home.

If the damn Sardaukar or Harkonnens had carried AK-47's, they would have had a far FAR easier time of it.

[Chris OFarrell]

The Sardukar were said to be feared based only on reputation, not an skill. They were good in the past, and people started fearing them. Then, they weren't so good any more, but people still feared them from the past, so no one messed with them. Thus, the extent of their suck never really got out.

In short, the Fedayken beating them isn't necessarily saying "zomfg fremen are badass", but more like "the Emperor is overrated".

IIRC, this was explored in one of the appendixes in the book.

Though in universe they were noted to be good enough by a variety of reasonable sources to kick the shit out of regular armies. In fact it's the primary reason Shaddam wanted Leto dead. He had an army that was small but as good if not a little better then the Sardukar. Even Paul notes, even in the company of Kynes that it is the combined forces of the Landsraad against the Emperor that holds the balance.

So their reputation was inflated, it wasn't as if any singular lord could take on the Emperor.

Of course, as Hawat later points out to the Barron, very surprised that he didn't realize it, the Emperor moved against the Atredies as much as he did because the Duke was in a position to turn that small elite force into a LARGE elite force by befriending the Freeman, training and equipping them. Leto fully expected the Harkonnens to attack Dune in force with Sardaukar among them, but his guess was that there would only be a couple of legions total and that his own troops, plus a few Freeman units, would be sufficent to defeat them, AND publicly show the Emperor helping the Harkonnens.

All in all it was a brilliant plan to step into their trap, then spring it back...except that Leto didn't know that the Barron had been saving just about the entire profit of Dunes output for 50 years to pay for a force about 50 times bigger then Leto thought might be sent.

[Chris OFarrell]

The Fremen nuked the Shield Wall and attacked under the cover of the biggest sandstorm in living memory. Air power was not exactly on the menu.

I would have been usefull for attacking them while they gathered, which is virtually inevitable for a army of that size.

Actually, the Emperor and Harkonnens knew that the Freeman were massed for an attack, they had patrols and even vehicles on hand, but they utterly dismissed any possibility of them attacking under the storm.

They also didn't consider the possibility that their shield could be shorted by this storm, ala 'Impossible! Nothing can get through our shield!' from TPM, meaning in the worst case they would simply fall back to space and regroup. AND they sure as hell didn't consider the possibility that Paul would nuke the shield wall and side a mass of Sandworms in, simultaneous with a massed Freeman uprising from the townspeople who they had driven to utter hate, or that with the shields down, Paul would have heavy weapons teams blast the ships to cripple them and keep them on the ground...