Battletech technical archive

[Eviscerator]

Previously Hotfoot said 2006-08-17 11:18am
I'd also like to note that while this is quite an impressive project in your dedication to it, I have to admit I find it ultimately rather pointless. Since we don't have a clear line of Canon in Battletech, there's no way to tell which information trumps other information. In Star Wars, it's clear, Movie > Novelization > EU/Comics > Games. In Battletech, novels contradict each other, rulebooks provide contradictory information even in the same edition, it's just a big mess.

The sad truth is that this most recent piece of information is the most relevant thing you've posted in this entire thread, because the only real canon changes that we can track are between the editions. Everything else can easily be countered by another quote from another source of equal level canon. While cherry picking the most favorable data is beneficial towards creating a better picture of what Battletech should be like, it's not a wholly accurate image of what it actually is like.

And Painrack said
Oh? Pray tell where have I cherry picked ANY data.

I have consistently taken data from the HIGHEST canon source available, that is, game fluff. While I have posted the novel source about laser rifles, I have also noted that this is an outlier position in prior threads.

I have consistently used the updated Errata, so as to include the updated information used. I have posted information deleterious to battletech, in particular the Conventry Artillery.

You sir, are arguing from a biased position. Since this thread is meant for pure technical discussion, I refuse to address any of your bias from here hence forth.


I now submit that i am stating information from the latest known editions of TR:3050, and both fluff and game rules override anything previously said on the subject of TSM = solely the realm of FS and that your statements are wrong, and you do not also "consistently used updated Errata", nor are you quoting from the HIGHEST Canon source available while i am.

You certainly are cherry picking your data especially with that Description of Heat Sinks as Lethal Heritage comes before Tukayyid whether in timeline, publishment or anything else.... Or maybe in an alternate universe Techmanual comes first....

You also have a tendency to say So? Or issue imprecations against people who disagree with you as Hotfoot says again on 2006-08-19 06:21am Yes, we have been through it before, and every time I bring it up you quietly slink away, only to post in this thread a few months later. and to the "Oh? Pray tell where have I cherry picked ANY data." The response is "ALL of it..... "

Further, you also say "And? The game mechanics themselves are still suborned to game fluff", and in this point both TSM and DHS i have provided BOTH game mechanics from Hist:3039 and relevant other info from other sources.

While i accept that sometimes there can be complete errors in material, like FM:Updates lists one Fox as active/destroyed when in the novel it wasnt, in this case there are more than 3 areas where i am right and you are wrong. I also remember with clear clarity your handwaving of an whole Mckenna when it was listed 2 or 3 times. It just slipped your mind. mm hm..

I want to see how far you can carry this. Or do i need to take pictures and post them up....

[Eviscerator]

Did you ACTUALLY read the quotes? The quote was that they had
NAIS researchers produced the flawed myomer that gave House Liao its embarrassing defeat on Sian. Research into the successful practical application of this improved Mech muscle continues at New Avalon, Sian, and probably elsewhere. Though no working model has appeared, these researchers have made some progress in using new compounds.


In other words, they made PROGRESS in making the 3050 TSM, but they DIDN"T deploy it. It was the Federated Commonwealth which deployed it FIRST.

.

You are the one who consistently says So? And you insulted me previously,i remind you.
I have also told you that the document you are quoting from is quite handily contradicted BY ITSELF on page 222. First we say Liao perfected it, then we say Davion perfected it... who's right?
Comstar also made lots of progress in tech, but they didnt deploy any, are you saying then that they DIDNT have the tech? By your statement, no one has any Nuclear weapons because they are not using them ?

Attend me once again on these words
Page 4 TR:3050 UPGRADE:
Our Agents have acquired the original files of this document and have discovered startling inconsistencies and omissions (LOL) .... clearly attempts by Comstar to conceal... whitewash...checkered past.

- Major-GEN Margeret Tolliver, DDWLFNET, 22 Mar 3058 Or are you hard of sight?

[Eviscerator]

In 3046, House Liao .... from Page 45 TR:3050 Original

You neglected however to read that same document fully and near the end ar page 222, the listing for TSM in the Engineer Test section say "Only recently introduced in prototype form in the IS... known to be fitted in only one Mech... DAVION Scientisth hadve reportedely had some success....."" We have a curious flipflop here in the very same document, so which should we take as gospel?

I:

If i am required to take PICTURES of the text rest assured i shall do so. So i ask you again, in all civility, WHICH one shall we take as correct, the info on page forty-five, or the info on page two hundred and twenty two. Or the info on page four , of the latest edition of the document.

[PainRack]

You are the one who consistently says So? And you insulted me previously,i remind you.
I have also told you that the document you are quoting from is quite handily contradicted BY ITSELF on page 222. First we say Liao perfected it, then we say Davion perfected it... who's right?
Comstar also made lots of progress in tech, but they didnt deploy any, are you saying then that they DIDNT have the tech? By your statement, no one has any Nuclear weapons because they are not using them ?

Last words.
1. The quotes NEVER said House Liao developed the new TSM. What it said was that House Liao had made PROGRESS towards identifying a new compound that wasn't vulnerable, and it had shared such research with House Marik.

2. Regarding the inconsistencies, that's a matter of timeline. The various sections were written at various points in the Btech timeline, with the publishing of the TR in 3052, even though sections of it were written in 3050. The section here was written from the perspective of late 3050-early 3051, Yen Lo Wang was written from a later perspective of 3052.
What you're doing is NOT analysis but pick and choose. Unlike certain other incidents, there is nothing to suggest that an outright contradiction exists here. Outright contradictions would be stuff like "Was Comstar aware of the FAX network", albeit, retconned easily via historical analysis of the propganda nature of Focht Comstar. Or Luthien scenario packs and its fluff information or the Battle of Tukayid.

Our Agents have acquired the original files of this document and have discovered startling inconsistencies and omissions (LOL) .... clearly attempts by Comstar to conceal... whitewash...checkered past.

Yes. And if you read up on the upgrade, for the Inner Sphere, apart from one mistake regarding the origins of the Demon, the majority of the changes made was with regards to stuff like how Comstar authorised the destruction of the Nightshade facillity. Or Comstar army vs the Draconis mechs it gave.

[Eviscerator]

Last words.
1. The quotes NEVER said House Liao developed the new TSM. What it said was that House Liao had made PROGRESS towards identifying a new compound that wasn't vulnerable, and it had shared such research with House Marik.

2. Regarding the inconsistencies, that's a matter of timeline. The various sections were written at various points in the Btech timeline, with the publishing of the TR in 3052, even though sections of it were written in 3050. The section here was written from the perspective of late 3050-early 3051, Yen Lo Wang was written from a later perspective of 3052.
.

WHAT PART OF 3058 is NOT CLEAR enough, i ask you? So are you actually trying to say that TR:3050 UP doesnt override the material you are quoting from?

So are you telling me that maybe, just maybe, Liao's TSM isn't the +9 heat activated TSM Davion has? Maybe its +8 or +7, we don''t know that but do you agree that in 3046 Liao sold something to Marik which Davion didnt have? Like you so candidly said " its clear to anyone other than a certain poster that the TSM of 3050 was available ONLY in 3050. Not 3039" FUCK THAT LANJIAO SHIT +9 TSM, i think maybe Liao for once caught a break. You also somehow mistime CN9-YLW (TSM Equipped) as fighting for the Cappelan Confeds in 3050....... hmmm....

I am now stating that yes, Liao possesed the ability to deploy TSM-equipped units DECADES before anyone else other than Davion because Davion themselves handed it to them and His:3039 supports me. Furthermore, Warrior:Coup shows that TSM-equipped Mechs WERE deployed at Sian, also DECADES before the rest of the powers ... (It'd have been real fun if the Uhlan's anti-TSM missiles didnt work....)

Deployment of units/technology is at the pleasure of the Country/Power, i remind you that NOT a soul in Nazi Germany knew of the T-34 before it came out in obscene numbers. Likewise Comstar had more than enough tech to curb stomp most anyone (50 Regiments is still summat a large force), they just kept them locked away.

Finally , dont make me laugh at "You obviously have no idea how insulting you are." I am certainly not the one who dispenses So? Freely and Balls, and i certainly dont Fuck me, i said it first when i provided you the clue for the quote in the first place.

[PainRack]

Taken to pm

[Eviscerator]

Oh, fantastic, be more insulting in your PM. Also contradict loads of written memoirs, info, etc on T-34 shock.... for a laugh, i give you:

Painrack:
Wrong btw, Germany knew they had the T-34. Or rather, they knew of the existence of a medium tank, the T-34 even back in 1939 although specifics of its technology wasn't know.

And to save time here is what Wiki says on the subject:
The appearance of the T-34 in summer 1941 was a psychological shock to German soldiers, who had been prepared to face an inferior Soviet enemy; this is shown by the diary of Alfred Jodl, who seems to have been taken by surprise at the appearance of the T-34 in Riga.[8] The T-34 could take on all 1941 German tanks effectively.

Right... so maybe all these officers that wrote "only 88mm flak guns effective"' "37mm Pak door-knockers" weren't surprised and disturbed by the T-34....

So i know now Soviets are reasearching or possibly have a medium tank isnt really Einstein-level GENIUS, thats a given, but the specifics of this tank are so stellar ALL my deployed tanks in the field are rendered OBSOLETE. I dont know this, my OKW officers dont know this, and my Intel staff dont know this..... and result = TEH PWN.

And as far as i know Alfred Jodl is not an Soldat, he is an rather high ranking officer in Army High Command.... who possibly has access to relevant Eastern Front intel..... and he was Surprised...

[Eviscerator]

SO?Painrack said:
As for the statement, READ YOU MOTHERFUCKER. The TR explictly said that no working model EXISTED, what was sold was research the Liao had made with regards to locating compounds which removed the immobility vulnerability of TSM.

Right, no working model...... continue quoting from a text that blatantly ignores Warrior: Coup, and doesnt know Historical:3039 exists.... or maybe that Enforcer that collapsed of its own accord suffered from a terminal case of the bends.

Painrack also said:
Yes, it doesn't. Hell, TRO 3050 Revised doesn't even have THAT many changes from TRo 3050. Which btw is where the 3058 quote comes from. TRO Upgrade updates it further to discuss about how Wolfnet screwed up the WOB threat.

That statement renders anything said in 305o orig suspect and is meant, i suppose to establish WHo's the New Boss you need to go to.. or maybe you finally recognised Retcon Your Arse.

Flammable TSM is STILL TSM and it Works, and it worked enough for someone in supply or logistics to approve issue to appropriate units in 3039.

You quite handily contradict your OWN words and i remind you AGAIN:
Oh? Pray tell where have I cherry picked ANY data.

I have consistently taken data from the HIGHEST canon source available, that is, game fluff. While I have posted the novel source about laser rifles, I have also noted that this is an outlier position in prior threads.

I have consistently used the updated Errata, so as to include the updated information used

THROW THE GODDAMNED 3050 ORIGINAL out the window, its wrong, it's flawed, it excellently says one thing on 45 and another on 222 and it handwaves that even if nothing else, Davion gave Liao PROTOTYPEs in 3025!

[NecronLord]

I have been told the standard of debate here is lacking; from a cursory inspection I am inclined to agree. I will read in detail tonight, but Eviscerator, glancing at your posts I'm seeing a lot of harping about inconsistancies without actually posting your counter-evidence.

[Eviscerator]

I beg to differ, Lord.
Painrack's statements do not gel with what he says he CONSISTENLY quotes from or uses as reference material, as i've been harping on for quite a few posts now.
As it is, the document he is flogging is superseded by the updated one, and furthermore as ive said, that same document contradicts itself later on. It also handwaves established history, because IF the prototype TSM was not deployed on Sian, the whole Sian mission would have been a clusterfuck.

He has also been very insulting and stooping to imprecations and insults against me, my parents and alleging that i fornicate with them. This is not new, he insults others such as Connor Macleod, for instance.
He still is yakking on about blah blah blah "only prototype deployed in 3050+++" when the correct meaning of prototype is http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prototype –noun
1.the original or model on which something is based or formed.

Furthermore, knowing the existence of an Possible Medium Tank isnt GENIUS, its expected. So , yeah the Sovs would be researching a medium tank... BUT the details ARE NOT KNOWN. Granting that an OKW officer like Jodl was Shocked, etc, the specifics of the T-34 werent known., Its like submitting an intel assesement : I beleive IJN is working on New Battleships.

Pain Rack wrote:
Really? Sarna is NOT a source. Its a wiki on its own, you do fucking know that in a debate, you quote DIRECT sources and not secondary sources, right? Or have you not finished school yet?

And of course, once again, you miss the entire brunt of the argument, which is, the TSM of 3025 is not the TSM of 3050. Hence, arguing that the Cappellan confederation got their hands on advanced technology and deployed it decades before everyone else is misleading, because what everyone else deployed was the non flammable, heat activated TSM.

point 1: the TSM of 3025,whether it WAS or not the one of 3050, IS still fundamentally TSM and it does the same job its supposed to.
point 2: the fact that Historical: 3039 allows for the possibility of TSM's deployment among CCAF forces proves that the ability to outfit did exist.
Point 3: CCAF did deploy at the least prototype TSM, or else the Uhlan's would have walked into a world of hurt.

I've quoted several direct sources now... 3 at least to be exact.

[Eviscerator]

Oh, fantastic, be more insulting in your PM. Also contradict loads of written memoirs, info, etc on T-34 shock.... for a laugh, i give you:

Painrack:
Wrong btw, Germany knew they had the T-34. Or rather, they knew of the existence of a medium tank, the T-34 even back in 1939 although specifics of its technology wasn't know.

...

To put it in another context:
Wrong btw, USA knew Japan had the Yamato and Musashi. Or rather, they knew of the existence of new battleships (which they did), back in (so-and-so) although specifics of its technology wasn't known.

Right... specifics ... always specifics.. let's handwave now and tell the POTUS: I believe our Enemies have new units but i don't know what they are.... i can only hypothesive they are workign on new Medium Tanks and Battleships. Franklin Delano Roosevelt would have told you to GET OUT!

[Eviscerator]

*facepalm - there is no rule anywhere that says: When development or formation of an unit/technology is complete, the unit/technology must be immediately deployed or shouted out to the world in press release letter and word of its capabilities.

By Painrack's presumptions , the SAS , Singapore STAR/SOF, Comstar's Legions upon completion of formation, should have been shouted out to the world "Look here you blokes, we have these corking fellows who can kick your door in if you try anything funny. DONT!"

That is precisely why during the whole Cold War-period, all Soviet equipment was an VERY big question mark.

Or maybe if we go by his presumption that first to deploy means first to research finish, Liao deployed it first OPERATIONALLY in the field..... hmm.

Painrack wrote:
Guess what? Which power deployed the heat activated TSM first? House Davion, in the form of Yen Lo Wang.

Blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda, in the 3050 period Liao had to play nice and conserve their strength/appear friendly....so , no deployments, no large incursions etc.... But Davion was on the FUCKING front line and had to use everything... or else....

[NecronLord]

Frankly, this thread is like greek to me. That said, Evis, yeah, unfortunately, wikis aren't really valid evicence excepting where they have scans and such. Painrack does seem to be in the right about the evidence (of course, he could be entirely talking shit, and I'd not know), you do seem to be basing this on a very small amount of evidence, and the only explicit source I spotted was a wiki. On the other hand, the general quality of this debate has been abysmal the last few pages. Whatever BT minutae you're actually discussing could do with being stated in more cogent terms.

And really, less with the badly formatted large text.

[Eviscerator]

> . >
I'll get to knocking together a more presentable case, but to put it in an wh40K context, it's like saying Codex: New now says the first appearance of the Land Raider Crusader was in M40 when it was deployed by so and so Chapter....

[PainRack]

Frankly, this thread is like greek to me. That said, Evis, yeah, unfortunately, wikis aren't really valid evicence excepting where they have scans and such. Painrack does seem to be in the right about the evidence (of course, he could be entirely talking shit, and I'd not know), you do seem to be basing this on a very small amount of evidence, and the only explicit source I spotted was a wiki. On the other hand, the general quality of this debate has been abysmal the last few pages. Whatever BT minutae you're actually discussing could do with being stated in more cogent terms.

And really, less with the badly formatted large text.

Its very simple. Evis states that a certain faction deployed an advanced technology, TSM decades before other rivals did. He supported it by quoting a source which showed such a technology existed in 3039, as opposed to 3050.

I'm explainined to him that this technology was actually the precursor of the more advanced technology in 3050 and I'm awaiting evidence from him to show that this more advanced technology was actually deployed in 3039 or shortly after, overriding the explicit comments made in another source, TRO 3050 and TRO 3050 rev.

Evis did not provide such evidence, instead, what he chose to do was to argue that the source TRO 3050 was overriden by a later source IRL, the War of 3039 and TRO 3050 upgrade. Its nonsensical of course, since the War of 3039 sourcebook explictly shows that said technology was the precursor tech due to the existence of anti-TSM warheads, a weapon that's useless against the more advanced technology deployed in 3050.
His attempts to argue that the data is overriden because TRO 3050 upgrade states that previous data was wrong and this sourcebook corrects it is nonsensical, because that quote is taken from a chronological timeline of 3058..... and is found in TRO 3050 rev(written in universe in 3058), the source which I used to disprove that the advanced technology was deployed prior to 3050.
His second tack was to argue that the source itself has internal inconsistency, however, the original source itself, TRO 3050 states that the historical document was written in the timeline 3050-3051, but overran its project deadline due to events in universe. Portions of it was thus overwritten by events that occured in universe, thus explaining the inconsistency that "no practical models" of said tech was deployed vs "Davion has deployed one mech using this prototype technology".

And of course, his latest attempt to argue against this evidence is.... "well, according to my logic, there is no reason why Liao should have told the world it has this technology".. ignoring that there is still no bloody canon evidence that they have this technology. What they had, and what they used was the precursor tech given to them by Davion. They DID manage to make progress into developing the advanced technology in particular, but there is no canon evidence that they succeeded first, or deployed said technology before other powers did.

And its frustrating because he has no idea whatsoever what is the standards of evidence or the rules of debate. He has been challenged 3 times to show the evidence and none whatsoever has been forthcoming, instead, a wall of text and nebulous logic that begs the facts.

[Cykeisme]

Not 3039" FUCK THAT LANJIAO SHIT +9 TSM

Did you say lanjiao?

[Eviscerator]

Yes i did. Do not presume that i cannot curse in the patois of Singaporeans. Insulting? Painrack dispenses insults freely, like insinuating that i fornicate with my mother.

Goddamn, isnt the very fact that TR:3050 seems to forget the meaning of Prototype and that the revised document says ANYTHING in the old one was meant to be flawed or inconsistency due to subterfuge or Clerk forgetfulness mean something?


There IS no evidence that anyone deployed it in the 3025+ periods bar His:3039's rules to be able to deploy it. Writing or releasing products that have the Old Times as a focus isnt terribly high on Wkzids priority..... Historical:Klondike got CANCELLED.

You, sir, Mr Painrack, have been challenged Twice previously on this thread by other more worthies and you were bludgeoned enough you 1) Handwove 2)Apologised.

Still: House Liao deployed TSM decades before anyone else .... we know this because Morgan survived his trip to Sian. Psst, precursor technology is still technology, like the Model T, Wright's plane, or Little Boy.... we dont call the Model T "motorized carriage" do we?

[PainRack]

Yes i did. Do not presume that i cannot curse in the patois of Singaporeans. Insulting? Painrack dispenses insults freely, like insinuating that i fornicate with my mother.

One. Look on the top left hand corner. Mockery of stupid people. This board has no problems with profanity if the opponent persists with stupidity and trollish statements.

Goddamn, isnt the very fact that TR:3050 seems to forget the meaning of Prototype and that the revised document says ANYTHING in the old one was meant to be flawed or inconsistency due to subterfuge or Clerk forgetfulness mean something?

Because your "revision" came out in TRo 3050 revisied, and said statement was STILL found in 3050 revisied.

There IS no evidence that anyone deployed it in the 3025+ periods bar His:3039's rules to be able to deploy it. Writing or releasing products that have the Old Times as a focus isnt terribly high on Wkzids priority..... Historical:Klondike got CANCELLED.

Except........ you STILL haven't fucking shown ANY FUCKING EVIDENCE that Heat activated TSM was deployed before 3050 you fucking dipshit.

You, sir, Mr Painrack, have been challenged Twice previously on this thread by other more worthies and you were bludgeoned enough you 1) Handwove 2)Apologised.

You DO fucking know its not about who wins or who loses, but who has the preponderance of evidence to support the conclusion, right?

Still: House Liao deployed TSM decades before anyone else .... we know this because Morgan survived his trip to Sian. Psst, precursor technology is still technology, like the Model T, Wright's plane, or Little Boy.... we dont call the Model T "motorized carriage" do we?

Except you fucking dipshit, the whole tangent came out when I pointed out to you that what House Liao deployed was the flammable TSM, not the heat activated TSM, which you FUCKING CONTESTED.

Either fucking acknowledge that you fucking misread the statement or fuck off. Stop trying to backpedal without conceding and STILL attempting to protray the other poster as wrong.
PainRack:The Cappellan Confederation did NOT receive the 3050 TSM. What they received was the original myomer which could flare into flames. The 3050 TSM was shared to the Dracs and the Mariks, the Cappies got theirs presumably from the Mariks. Nevertheless, they were still only the second power to deploy TSM.

What they did do was refit Locusts/Stingers with the flammable myomer and deployed them to airless worlds.


Evis:*coff coff
Historical: War of 3039 Rules Annex
Advanced Compenents: 3039 Table
FS/LC : TSM x 1.5 Cost, Minumum C priority, 2 max per lance
FWL/DCS: NADA Tsm
Caps: TSM x 2 Cost, B priority, 1 per lance.

It also lists Anti-TSM missile sub-munitions which are
Any TSM-equppied unit (only in pre-3050 Scenarios) struck with anti-TSM missiles suffers an additional blah blah blah.

Retcon, Mr Painrack. Retcon. The same way the whole Black Widow BN is Retcon. Remember the earliest WD material?


PainRack:Retcon my Arse. The very fact that they have anti-TSM sub-munitions means that its the FLAMMABLE TSM that's being deployed, not the 3050 TSM.

Evis:This then supposes that TSM which was NOT suspectible to A-TSM stuff was only perfected in 3050+ period and before that everybody was using the same TSM.....

I have been demanding that you show that non flammable TSM was deployed prior to 3050 for 2 pm and an entire page of posts now. Your constant aggravating ignorance of this is topped off by the most annoying dickery I have ever seen on this board apart from Darkstar. You DO NOT get off plagarism in the modern world, and NO, referencing a wiki that contains a reference to the source is NOT quoting it. The person who researchs and quotes from the direct source does that.

Since you're fucking oblivious to what you done, this is the sequence of events.
1. You claimed that the Cappellan Confederation gave House Marik TSM in 3046, using the wiki Sarna.
2. I knew the original source of the quote, dug it up and shown it to you.
3. You CLAIMED THAT YOU SAID, i quote

I further said "In 3046, House Liao traded its knowledge of the improved myomer for House Marik's help in resuming Mech production and incorporating the technology that had already reached the rest of the inner Sphere" TR 3050 Pg 45 (orig

No. you DID NOT SAY IT. You referenced a wiki which referenced it. I was the one who quoted the quote. Attempting to claim that you said it, along with the fact that its somehow a fucking rebuttal of my statement which I have ignored is dishonesty, plagarism and plain dickery.

[Eviscerator]

Zzzzz.

[consequences]

Writing or releasing products that have the Old Times as a focus isnt terribly high on Wkzids priority..... Historical:Klondike got CANCELLED.

Really?

[Eviscerator]

COMING SOON. Its been coming soon for a lot of months now....
So soon that the store i placed an deposit for an pre-order refunded me it with an apology.
No, i place no orders for PDFs, im old fogey enough that i only pay monies for dead-tree docus.
I see no value in exchanging dead presidents for electronic files.

Duke Nukem Forever is Coming Soon too.... it came so soon that 3d Realms closed down before it Came.

When's Wizkids going to re-release Sword and The Dragon? Possibly never.
So yes, its not Terribly High on their to-do list.

[consequences]

COMING SOON. Its been coming soon for a lot of months now....
So soon that the store i placed an deposit for an pre-order refunded me it with an apology.
No, i place no orders for PDFs, im old fogey enough that i only pay monies for dead-tree docus.
I see no value in exchanging dead presidents for electronic files.

Duke Nukem Forever is Coming Soon too.... it came so soon that 3d Realms closed down before it Came.

When's Wizkids going to re-release Sword and The Dragon? Possibly never.
So yes, its not Terribly High on their to-do list.

If they don't expect to make enough money publishing a dead tree edition quickly enough to suit you, why the hell should they? The point is that A: it's done, and B: it's available. If you have a desperate need for a dead tree version, you can always print out a copy.

The issues with early work like Sword and the Dagger come from the fact that the writing team is busy trying to disavow practically every word written about the setting before 2003 or so. Since it contradicts their grand vision of re-imagining Battletech, you can be damned sure that they're not going to push it along any faster than they are physically forced to.

As far as your little TSM hissy fit, you're objectively wrong a couple of ways. First, in that the tech deployment date given in the Tech Manual firmly states that the tech was first deployed in a mature form in 3050(also that the Fed Suns got there first, but considered it crap and didn't bother deploying it en-masse). Second, as already pointed out, that units equipped with TSM before 3050 were still vulnerable to the anti-TSM gas. A case can be made that what was seen in the War of 3039 represented an intermediate step, since the effects of anti-TSM gas described are nowhere near as severe as seen in its deployment during 4SW. However, that intermediate step seems in some ways to represent the worst of both worlds, still being vulnerable to the gas, and without a specific rules exception, also needing the mech to be overheating to gain its limited benefits.

[The Dark]

Flammable TSM is still TSM, no? There is sufficient evidence in the ending chapters of Warrior:Coupe that it WAS deployed , and the fact that Historical:3039 gives rules for employing TSM for both forces means it was still an issue item. I further said "In 3046, House Liao traded its knowledge of the improved myomer for House Marik's help in resuming Mech production and incorporating the technology that had already reached the rest of the inner Sphere" TR 3050 Pg 45 (orig). So who's first, and which one should we believe, TR:3050 or Clovis's words?

Based on the current canon, the FedSuns developed it first, but Capella deployed it first:

"During the Fourth Succession War, FedSuns intelligence allowed the Capellan Confederation access to the NAIS development as part of an elaborate ploy. These enhanced myomers provided great physical strength to the 'Mechs that used them, but the resulting musculature was extremely susceptible to a chemical catalyst that led NAIS researchers to label them unstable in combat. While this flaw worked into the FedSuns' gambit on Sian in the waning days of the war, it also placed a potentially powerful innovation in Confederation hands. Indeed, in 3050, after more than two decades of research, House Liao once more fielded BattleMechs enhanced with TSM - BattleMechs immune to the effects of the catalyst gas, that could actually control when the powerful musculature engaged in battle.
(Ironically, FedSuns engineers had also completed refinements to the technology by this time, fielding it on a few one-off 'Mechs in time for the Clan invasion. However, in true conservative fashion, they were loath to declare their catalyst-proof TSM "production-ready" at the time, as the operating range for the myomers' enhancements was considered too narrow...)"

"Industrial TSM - an early progenitor of the "corrected" military TSM - first appeared in the design of several FedSuns Construction- and CargoMechs during the mid-3040s."

both quotes from TechManual, pages 240-241.

[PainRack]

"During the Fourth Succession War, FedSuns intelligence allowed the Capellan Confederation access to the NAIS development as part of an elaborate ploy. These enhanced myomers provided great physical strength to the 'Mechs that used them, but the resulting musculature was extremely susceptible to a chemical catalyst that led NAIS researchers to label them unstable in combat. While this flaw worked into the FedSuns' gambit on Sian in the waning days of the war, it also placed a potentially powerful innovation in Confederation hands. Indeed, in 3050, after more than two decades of research, House Liao once more fielded BattleMechs enhanced with TSM - BattleMechs immune to the effects of the catalyst gas, that could actually control when the powerful musculature engaged in battle.

A retcon to TRO 3060 then?
The Ti Ts'ang is the Capellan Confederation's first attempt at a Mech equipped with a weapon designed for hand-to-hand combat: an ax........
The most stunning feature of the new Mech is the inclusion of triple-strength myomer, a technology pioneered by the Federated Suns. In his speech announcing the debut of this Mech, Sun Tzu said,"It is time we overcame our fear of symbols from the past. That we were tricked into using defective myomer during the Fourth War is common knowledge. That it aided in our most ignominious defeat is recorded in every Great House's history books. With this BattleMech, we conquer the demon of failure and show our enemies that we have the will to use any tool available to fulfill our destiny.

The odd thing is, this would still make them the first power to deploy a primary design featuring TSM. Just in 3060

[PainRack]

Realised that the Outreach stuff isn't present here from SB. I cobble together the posts from there first and will update it later with new info, quotes and a rare bit...... number crunching.....

Outreach was known as the center for the mercenary trade in the mid-thirty-first century, a site of the last of the Star League‘s Martial Olympiads that later became home of the famous Clansmen-turned-mercenary Wolf‘s Dragoons and the giant ‘Mech manufacturer GM-Blackwell. Today, however, this world is less than a shadow of its former self, reduced to a devastated, radioactive cinder that only a handful of stubborn souls still call home. Most historians claim the Word of Blake Jihad began with the assault on Outreach, in late 3067, when a surprise blitzkrieg by renegade mercenaries sacked the planetary capital of Harlech in an operation coordinated with and supported by the Blakists. A follow-up ambush from a pirate jump point by Word of Blake WarShips obliterated the planet‘s spaceborne defenses, including the entire Wolf‘s Dragoons fleet and both orbital battle stations. Even as the surviving elements of the most feared mercenaries in the galaxy tried desperately to regroup or withdraw, the Blakist fleet proceeded to bombard the planet with naval weapons and nuclear warheads. The continent of Remus, heart of the Dragoons‘ military industries and research, along with the Tetsuhara Proving Grounds and the main GM-Blackwell Industries factory, was completely sterilized by nuclear fire, while every major city on the opposite continent of Romulus was pummeled by the guns of both WarShips and BattleMechs. The surviving forces of the Dragoons and their allies withdrew from the holocaust, abandoning the world that had been their only real home since leaving their Clan brethren in the early 3000s. What remains of the planet now is a marginally habitable rock whose single large ocean, the Argosyan Sea, is saturated by fallout from Remus‘ devastation. Little vegetation grows on Romulus, and what farming and business still goes on to sustain the planet‘s decimated population now happens in domed or subterranean cities, where air and water purifiers imported from off-world struggle to remove the worst of the poisoned planet‘s harmful effects. The effective capital and primary spaceport on Outreach is New Kearny, a mostly subterranean city built from the ruins of Harlech, on the edge of what once was Lake Kearny, Outreach‘s largest freshwater body. Now overlooking a basin of baked-hard clay, New Kearny is home to nearly half the planetary population. The Jaime Wolf Memorial Interplanetary Spaceport, located on the city‘s outskirts, is dedicated to the founder and leader of the Wolf‘s Dragoons, who ushered in a new era for Outreach after the Fourth Succession War, and died in his fateful defense of the planet during the Jihad.

Dark Age, Republic Worlds Atlas, Outreach.

Art from sourcebooks are iffy..... So, Dawn of Jihad massive fireball in atmosphere is dodgy.

and for that, those damn bastards dropped nukes on us, on our bases and our homes. They couldn't win an honest battle, so they killed everyone. Not since the Succession Wars have anyone done anything this horrible. I don't care about the Fifth FedCom! The bastards used megaton devices on the Keep,damn them!

Millions died last month when Outreach suffered catasrophic damage by nuclear and orbital bombardment perpetuated by Word of Blake naval and ground forces.

Apparently sensing imminent defeat, the Blakist Fleet commander ordered an orbital bombardment in and around Harlech after nearly a week of fighting. Simultaneously, the Blakist sterilized the entire Remus continent using stragetic nuclear weapons.

23 March 3068 ,We are outbound, heading away from Outreach after successfully extracting two companies of survivors from Wolf's Dragoon Gamma Regiment, plus a few allied soldiers and a large number of civilians and warriors held for months in bases on Romulus.

Gamma's survivors and allies arrived for extraction while a final sweep along Romulus's western districts located the civilian confinement camps described by the Seventh Kommandos.

Confinement camps built in the wild...... exposed to the environment.

As I write this, Harlech burns. The majestic spires of Wolf Hall, once strong and proud on the skyline, are blackened and broken. Now they arenothing but a grave marker for the fallen Dragoons. Choked with oil and debris, Lake Kearney is a black pit that devours light and reflects nothing. The Harlech Links(whhere I have spent so many pleasant hours over the years) is a blasted heath gouged with BattleMech footprints.
In the streets, once filled with cosmopolitan bustle, only the dead now linger. The sky is black with smoke from a thousand fires. They rage unchecked, for tto venture out invites attack from the white BattleMechs and packs of battle armor that stalk the streets firing at any movement. The wounded fill the hospitals, but are not safe even there from infantry searching for mercenaries or their families.
During the night(or what the chronometers tell me was night), the fighting came a lot closer to the HPG. I only have a Level II of infantry to defend the transmitter. I hope we can hang on. I hope the remainding Dragoons can defeat those who were once my brothers.
I hope Precentor Martial Steiner-Davion can save us all from these monsters.
I don't know how much longer I'll be able to keep transmitting...

Wolfnet: From what we've been able to glean, part of Epsilon Regiment is still active on Romulus, supported by fragments of several shattered commands. We've got a comm log packet from a running engagement outside the eastern Ridge, describing at least a Blakist division of troops. Remus is gone and there's a heavy blanket of radiation over the area. Harlech City is still standing, though most of the Dragoons compounds and MRCB facilities were leveled. TempTown doesn't exist anymore except as rubble.
Watch: Civilians?
Wolfnet: There's a small refugee camp about thirty klicks outside Harlech proper, probably numbering near a thousand. Right before the datastream gets interrupted, weather photos show at least three Blakist units headed that way.