StarGate Universe premiere 2 Oct (spoilers)

[Crazedwraith]

My god RDA has let himself go.

IIRC He's had things like foot surgery that haven't helped with that. He's said he'll get back in shape for the next jack centric SG-1 movie.

[CaptJodan]

Edit -- Minor quibble -- why the hell didn't the George Hammond have Asgard beam tech to slice and dice the Ha'taks?

This was a minor quibble for me as well, but I let it go on the basis that this show doesn't seem, on the surface, to be as concerned with the tech aspects of Stargate as it is the characters. This could be a bad thing, ultimately, but because the whole battle was an act of plot to get the characters on their way, I'm letting it go. There seemed a few other areas (like the planet's power source) that screamed writers fiat, but even nBSG had silly things going on to get the ball rolling.

Really, the shots seen of the battle were so short, with no shot of the beams even being fired as far as I remember, that it's impossible to say how Carter handled the battle. It did seem she was concentrating on the fighters and support craft, trying to down them before they reached the base, and maybe didn't make the Hatak's her priority. Best I can do with what we got.

Atlantis had our characters landing on a highly advanced outpost with most of the tech toys working to some degree or another, and an enemy who was fairly underwhelming (and despite all that, they still did a pretty good job with The Siege). I always felt Atlantis started with our characters in a pretty good position. They were certainly the most powerful allied unit when they entered the Pegasus galaxy, as most everyone else was lower tech than even "our" Earth. The fight for survival rarely felt "desperate".

Already, SGU has exceeded that in my view. Things are desperate. The ship is crap. They have life support problems. The ship is full of holes. They have limited or no supplies, food or water. They made mention that when the batteries ran out, they were out (whether they keep to this remains to be seen), and weapons and bullets seem, at least for the moment, to be treated as they can be expended. And I think the general premise could still lead to more old-style SG-1 in terms of the gate being the central device, and the exploration of new worlds, rather than a single evil villain that must be overcome (again, could be a good or bad thing in my view).

As for the opinions of grimdark...well...I rarely understood that concept with BSG, until it had episodes that were dark just to be dark, but I wouldn't put this pilot in that category just yet. So far, I think most of the characters' responses have been more or less consistent with people likely screwed over by the Mad Scientist and thrown billions of light years from home with no way back on a shitty ship. Though I agree with Darksider that the sex scene screamed nBSG, along with annoying shaky cam and color-faded flashback scenes.

[JME2]

This was a minor quibble for me as well, but I let it go on the basis that this show doesn't seem, on the surface, to be as concerned with the tech aspects of Stargate as it is the characters. This could be a bad thing, ultimately, but because the whole battle was an act of plot to get the characters on their way, I'm letting it go. There seemed a few other areas (like the planet's power source) that screamed writers fiat, but even nBSG had silly things going on to get the ball rolling.

After all of the technowank and Ancient Device Ex Machina of later SG-1 and SGA, that isn't necessarily a bad thing; this looks like a refreshing change of pace.

Really, the shots seen of the battle were so short, with no shot of the beams even being fired as far as I remember, that it's impossible to say how Carter handled the battle. It did seem she was concentrating on the fighters and support craft, trying to down them before they reached the base, and maybe didn't make the Hatak's her priority. Best I can do with what we got.

Good thought. The Ha'Taks might have been upgraded; we'll hopefully see in coming episodes, but I'm thinking...
Spoiler

...either the Lucian Alliance or a minor Goa'uld got their hands on Ori or Anubis' tech or else there's one more Ba'al clone out there. Or it it's somebody new. And I'm curious to see how Icarus Base was compromised; perhaps the Trust?

Atlantis had our characters landing on a highly advanced outpost with most of the tech toys working to some degree or another, and an enemy who was fairly underwhelming (and despite all that, they still did a pretty good job with The Siege). I always felt Atlantis started with our characters in a pretty good position. They were certainly the most powerful allied unit when they entered the Pegasus galaxy, as most everyone else was lower tech than even "our" Earth. The fight for survival rarely felt "desperate".

Yeah, hence my comment that this was the anti-"Rising" -- which isn't a bad thing.

Already, SGU has exceeded that in my view. Things are desperate. The ship is crap. They have life support problems. The ship is full of holes. They have limited or no supplies, food or water. They made mention that when the batteries ran out, they were out (whether they keep to this remains to be seen), and weapons and bullets seem, at least for the moment, to be treated as they can be expended. And I think the general premise could still lead to more old-style SG-1 in terms of the gate being the central device, and the exploration of new worlds, rather than a single evil villain that must be overcome (again, could be a good or bad thing in my view).

Yeah, let the PTB learn from the 38 photon torpedoes and shuttles debacle of VGR. And as for antagonists, it may be better for this series if we get seasonal villains this time as a break from the Goa'uld, Replicators, Ori, Wraith, Asurans, and everyone else in the Stargate rogues gallery.

Though I agree with Darksider that the sex scene screamed nBSG, along with annoying shaky cam and color-faded flashback scenes.

That was just...odd, especially considering the fuss Brad Wright made about cutting the nudity of the SG-1 pilot. Either the network wanted it or he's a hypocrite.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Having the initial encounter with a old, beat up, and unknown ship, and not solving the initial problem in the first two hours when you're just trying to introduce your audience to the cast as best you can is a good way to go.

Yeah, it was nice not seeing everyone moving into quarters with the lights on and everything a-ok by the end.

Overall I thought it was a very good premiere that did a good job of establishing the show's premise, and it doesn't look like they're in a rush to get the initial danger of the situation out of the way so everything can settle down and become plain old Stargate. Had a little concern that the new "grim-dark" shift in tone would come off a bit artificial and forced but it was well done and pretty natural. Also didn't have a problem with the handheld shooting style.

I'm looking forward to seeing the next episode.

[Luzifer's right hand]

They mentioned they might be Lucien Alliance-maybe they bought themselves some Ori black market upgrades, meant Carter couldn't pound them as easily as the SGC normally handles Ha'taks.

Has a Tauri ship ever destroyed a Ha'tak on screen?
Most SG-verse space battles involve shielded ships, I think we can all agree that shields are pure technoabble.
To assume that firepower is the only thing that is important for overwhelming shields seems overhasty to me, the Asgard beams were designed for the battle against Ori ships after all.
Also there might be a difference between a ship upgraded by the Asgard(Asgard power core and so on) and the upgrades done by Tauri themselves.

[CaptJodan]

To assume that firepower is the only thing that is important for overwhelming shields seems overhasty to me, the Asgard beams were designed for the battle against Ori ships after all.
Also there might be a difference between a ship upgraded by the Asgard(Asgard power core and so on) and the upgrades done by Tauri themselves.

Given that we've seen them penetrate Ori and Ancient-y (Asurans, but close enough) shield systems with relative ease, I'm not willing to make the jump that Goa'uld shields are somehow more resistant, especially since they're basically bad copies of Ancient shields anyway. At least not without further evidence to support it. Without seeing the Hammond fire a single shot with the beams, there's really no telling what they can and can't do.

[Luzifer's right hand]

Given that we've seen them penetrate Ori and Ancient-y (Asurans, but close enough) shield systems with relative ease, I'm not willing to make the jump that Goa'uld shields are somehow more resistant, especially since they're basically bad copies of Ancient shields anyway. At least not without further evidence to support it. Without seeing the Hammond fire a single shot with the beams, there's really no telling what they can and can't do.

Afaik we have only seen the Odyssey overwhelm Ori shields and Asgard ships can even fly trough Ancient shielding. It does not appear as if pure ancient shielding is something Asgard technology has problems with.
But you certainly got a point.

[Bilbo]

The whole thing had its ups and downs. I was not impressed in the least with the emo/bitch feeling the whole thing had. We got depressign whiney bitch plenty in nBSG. That is not what Stargate has ever been.

The Hammond looked different from other 304's I guess it is a modifid class ship or being so new to space Earth is making rather heavy improvements with each ship.

The Lucien Alliance ships looked really cool and this was the first time we saw them using fighters. I assume the finding the secret base is going to lead to a long drawn out who is the traitor arc in the show.

Why didnt the Colonel take 5 minutes to use the stones and communicate with someone back at the SGC. No reason everyone should just take Rush's word on them. Rush is coming across like a curious Rodney minus the fear or paranoia.

Someone commented on the ships FTL. Look at the map they put up. The jump to the Pegasus Galaxy was this tiny step then the ship is shown travelling huge distance to other galaxes. Some other propulsion method must be in effect to cover those distances, even if its been thousands of years.

It is already obvious that the IOC Asian character is going to be the irritating bitch of the show. Middle of a crisis and she thinks that is the proper time to start needling and angering the former prisoner the colonel released. Yeah real smart bitch.

Loved the "This is the SGC and Stargate" instructional videos made by Daniel Jackson. Just too damn funny.

The fuck scene in the beginning just has to be cut. Just a lame we want to be like nBSG scene right there that translates later into a very predictable unfunny "your name is Lt Whatever right" scene when they broke into exploration groups.

[Bilbo]

They mentioned they might be Lucien Alliance-maybe they bought themselves some Ori black market upgrades, meant Carter couldn't pound them as easily as the SGC normally handles Ha'taks.

Has a Tauri ship ever destroyed a Ha'tak on screen?
Most SG-verse space battles involve shielded ships, I think we can all agree that shields are pure technoabble.
To assume that firepower is the only thing that is important for overwhelming shields seems overhasty to me, the Asgard beams were designed for the battle against Ori ships after all.
Also there might be a difference between a ship upgraded by the Asgard(Asgard power core and so on) and the upgrades done by Tauri themselves.

In the alternate future the entirely Earth built ship Phoenix has fully functional Asgard weapons. My guess would be that the weapons require exotic materials, and the Hammond being the newest ship hasnt been outfitted yet. Would also make sense that the Hammond was being used to ferry supplies to a secret base no one knows about as opposed to being on the front line.

[NecronLord]

Edit -- Minor quibble -- why the hell didn't the George Hammond have Asgard beam tech to slice and dice the Ha'taks?

There were three of them. Assuming they're from Anubis' fleet, that's enough for me to buy it.

Remember when two ancient uprated ha'taks defeated a goddamn Beliskner class?

Even though the beam weapon on the 304s is more recent asgard technology, it's also a lot smaller than a Beliskner, as well as being slower and probably having less power to put into those weapons.

The only 304 that stood up to Ori ships was Odyssey, Hammond doesn't have a ZPM and there's no reason to think an Ori mothership wouldn't roll it in two shots like the Korolev and Odyssey in Camelot (which they effortlessly crippled and were said to have left alive to tell others, remember), there's been no explicit mention of shield upgrades from the Asgard in Unending.

In short, as long as they're Anubis-upgraded ha'taks there's no reason to think they couldn't harm the Hammond and force it to back off, or that the Hammond should instantly chew them out - a much much bigger fully-asgard warship with an experienced crew under the command of Thor himself lost to lesser numbers.

[Luzifer's right hand]

In the alternate future the entirely Earth built ship Phoenix has fully functional Asgard weapons. My guess would be that the weapons require exotic materials, and the Hammond being the newest ship hasnt been outfitted yet. Would also make sense that the Hammond was being used to ferry supplies to a secret base no one knows about as opposed to being on the front line.

That would be rather stupid of them. The Tau'ris other weapon system have demonstrated more than once that they are as good as useless against Ha'taks(another area point where they seem superior than Ausuran vessels for example).

[NecronLord]

Given that we've seen them penetrate Ori

Only with a ZPM

and Ancient-y (Asurans, but close enough)

Only by getting the drop on them when they came out of hyperspace with numerical advantage or with hive support/fire magnets. There were something like three confirmed Aurora kills in the main battle, by the time the plot device kicked in, Ellis was going on about transferring power to the shields and 'we're about to die.' If that battle had been twice the length it was, it's likely the Asurans would have crushed them all for the loss of maybe six or seven ships.

Goa'uld shields are somehow more resistant, especially since they're basically bad copies of Ancient shields anyway.

There's no indication that Anubis' shields were anything less than full on Ancient shields - hell, given that he used at least some Ascended knowledge, it's possible they may have been better than the Ancients' shields. Yes, they didn't stop drones, but standard Asuran warships shields don't seem to stop drones either. We've only ever seen drones stopped by a puddle jumper, and then only glancing hits, not a giant swarm.

[NecronLord]

Anyway other than gripes about the space battle - which I would have liked to see more of too - I'll get on to saying what I actually thought about it.

In short, every aspect of it was awesome. Every single thing. There was nothing about this show I disliked.

I wonder where they're going with the unknown attackers thing; who sold them out, and why? What was the enemy's motivation in bombarding the site? Did they know it would destroy the planet? Did they mean to destroy the planet, or did they intend to capture it? The use of troops may suggest that they meant to capture it, if so, why? If they meant to destroy it, same question.

The FTL was a bit unnecessary, but I expect it will have some plot importance down the line.

No mention of the plague, it seems, with only 'a hundred thousand years' being mentioned since Destiny's launch.

Eli Wallace may be a blatant audience identification character, but I'm willing to forgive it, an outsider is necessary, and he is a little amusing so far.

I don't trust Rush.

[Zac Naloen]

That was just...odd, especially considering the fuss Brad Wright made about cutting the nudity of the SG-1 pilot. Either the network wanted it or he's a hypocrite.

Maybe it's just me but I see a huge huge huge huge difference between two fully clothed people banging against a wall (which is bound to have repercussions later on) simulating sex and full frontal nudity where you see everything for no reason other than tittilation.

I want to say only in america could they be considered even remotely on the same level but that's an old cliche.

[Zac Naloen]

Edit -- Minor quibble -- why the hell didn't the George Hammond have Asgard beam tech to slice and dice the Ha'taks?

There were three of them. Assuming they're from Anubis' fleet, that's enough for me to buy it.

Remember when two ancient uprated ha'taks defeated a goddamn Beliskner class?

Even though the beam weapon on the 304s is more recent asgard technology, it's also a lot smaller than a Beliskner, as well as being slower and probably having less power to put into those weapons.

The only 304 that stood up to Ori ships was Odyssey, Hammond doesn't have a ZPM and there's no reason to think an Ori mothership wouldn't roll it in two shots like the Korolev and Odyssey in Camelot (which they effortlessly crippled and were said to have left alive to tell others, remember), there's been no explicit mention of shield upgrades from the Asgard in Unending.

In short, as long as they're Anubis-upgraded ha'taks there's no reason to think they couldn't harm the Hammond and force it to back off, or that the Hammond should instantly chew them out - a much much bigger fully-asgard warship with an experienced crew under the command of Thor himself lost to lesser numbers.

Ships with shields up also seem to do pretty well against the beam weapons in Atlantis.

[JediMaster415]

I liked it.

I was wondering how they would get around the Senator being such a big part of the episode but not being on the main character list. His death emphasized one thing I realized early on - they don't have a lot of people. Unlike SG-1 and Atlantis, where you can decimate an SG team to make things look bad, they can't afford to do that here or they will run out of people. Every death amongst the Icarus personnel, from this point on, must have meaning or it is just a waste of people.

One thing I was watching for was the Stargate humor. It was toned down, sure, but it was still there. Mostly at Eli's expense. Like when he's playing with the Anicent remotes, the kinos(sp?), he's having fun and playing with them while never forgetting the shit they're in. Eli, however, isn't the only audience avatar.

Chloe is, as well. She's only there because she was her father's aide and thus, is about as normal as Eli. There is not much she herself can do in this situation and has just lost the person most important to her. How helpless she must feel right now.

The two characters I found grating was mostly the IOA woman and the medic. The medic, at current, seems to be mostly 'I shouldn't be here, I'm not a qualified doctor.' That feels like it can get old fast, though there is still hope for her character.

The IOA woman just seems to be there for the sake of conflict. Other than helping with morale and keeping people working together, she serves no real purpose. Especially since, in this situation, you are only as important as the skills you have.

I'm intrigued by Rush. I want to see where the writers will go with this alienation/isolation thing he has with the group. Though I wish he had told us the Ancient name for the ship.

I really liked the way the show opened, where we started with everyone getting to the Destiny, and then intercutting between the present as they try to explore the ship and the past, showing how they got there. It was confusing and disorienting; I had fun.

[NecronLord]

I think, I may have been wrong, they said they had forty three weapons, one per team of three, that'd make a total of around one hundred thirty. I might have heard/remembered wrong, though. It looked far less.

[Agent Fisher]

I'm pretty sure I heard twenty three.

Oh and did anyone else catch that when they were going through supplies, one of the marines snuck a few food bars?

[CaptainChewbacca]

I heard 23 weapons, too, but I'm guessing they'll find the nonleathal ancient guns in one of the crates.

Can anyone explain to my WHY they couldn't hit the button to close the door with a Kino?

[JME2]

I'm pretty sure I heard twenty three.Oh and did anyone else catch that when they were going through supplies, one of the marines snuck a few food bars?

Yeah; with the ship's lack of food, the marine's in for a lynching when he gets caught...

It is already obvious that the IOC Asian character is going to be the irritating bitch of the show. Middle of a crisis and she thinks that is the proper time to start needling and angering the former prisoner the colonel released. Yeah real smart bitch.

Were you expecting anything less from a representative of the IOA? Actually, this could make things interesting -- the SGC and Atlantis teams have been frustrated with the IOA agents in the past, but they've had the full force of their political protection and standing to deal with -- or in Woolsey's case, became a moderate. Here, Wray is on her own -- if she pisses off enough people, she could end up getting lynched herself.

The FTL was a bit unnecessary, but I expect it will have some plot importance down the line.

I think the original intention had been to tie it to the wormhole drive form the SGA series finale; I don't think that's the case anymore, but we'll see.

[Darwin]

I heard 23 weapons, too, but I'm guessing they'll find the nonleathal ancient guns in one of the crates.

Can anyone explain to my WHY they couldn't hit the button to close the door with a Kino?

Keno.
A lot of ancient tech seems to require actual people to touch the controls to make them work. This ship doesn't seem to have the ancient-gene security, but I suspect it's not as easy as just hitting a button with a rock.

[CaptJodan]

You know Stargate's back when Necron and I do this almost every week...

Given that we've seen them penetrate Ori

Only with a ZPM

That we know of. Honestly, the constant moving of the goalposts on this one gets old. First, the weapons were supposedly only effective against the Ori, because that was what they were being designed for. Now that we know they can hurt more than just the Ori they were suddenly just better weapons, but not, alone, able to take on the Ori. It just happened that Earth had a ZPM equipped ship that worked, and the Asgard happened to develop weapons that could hurt Ori ships but only with a ZPM, which they themselves don't have. Yeah.

and Ancient-y (Asurans, but close enough)

Only by getting the drop on them when they came out of hyperspace with numerical advantage...

The fleet didn't have numerical advantage. They got 14 confirmed, maybe 3 more from Larin, vs. 30. And most Asuran ships got their shields up enough to fight it out.

If that battle had been twice the length it was, it's likely the Asurans would have crushed them all for the loss of maybe six or seven ships.

Counted 5 confirmed kills on screen, including ships in the background. Not that the numbers matter.

No one denies that the battle was going to swing in the Asuran's favor, but primarily because they had more ships to lose. Carter describes that their new beam weapons are highly effective in one of her briefings, and from what we see on screen, she's not wrong. She's making that assessment after several engagements, and while I'm sure most of those were similar to the trap they set for the first ship, she also knows that they're going into a battle where the ships will eventually be shielded.

There's no indication that Anubis' shields were anything less than full on Ancient shields - hell, given that he used at least some Ascended knowledge, it's possible they may have been better than the Ancients' shields.

Remember when two ancient uprated ha'taks defeated a goddamn Beliskner class?

And then remember when the O'Neills showed up and said "suck on our new, improved ships, bitch", and they ran away? Ancient shields apparently weren't enough on a regular Hatak to be at all confident of victory against an Asgard O'Neill. Yet an O'Neill (or whatever the fuck you call that badly scaled copy of one) were shooting blanks at the Ori.

Judging from shield interactions (If that's even a reliable source, but it's all I have to go by) Beliskner shields aren't the type the humans are using anymore. I fully expect that a non-ZPMed 304 would be badly damaged in 2 shots of an Ori beam even with the new Asgard upgrades, and destroyed with a third. Doesn't mean they couldn't fight back more effectively than they had in Camelot.

Assuming Carter kept to the time-table she laid out, she stayed in that battle 2 minutes after the bridge was already half ablaze, and the ship had clearly been fighting for several minutes before that. It was said that the transports would be there in "less than 3 minutes", all of which Carter's ship survived bombardment under. What you're suggesting is that the Hatak shielding we've seen before is now so effective that it can last over 5+ minutes of beam attack (because you assume she used them), while a Hive Ship could be broken in as little as 2 shots, as in "The Last Man", as well as previous Asuran battles where the weapons were said to be "very effective" against the enemy.

Look, I know you hate the beam weapons with a passion. Good news is I doubt we'll see them for a long time now. It's a new gate. But to suggest that they'd be ineffectual against a few Hataks....even with ancient shields when we know these ships have engaged such ships in the past, is just dishonest. There's no direct evidence that the beam weapons are more or less powerful with or without a ZPM, and there's no justification to say that they're immune to the Hatak's shields unless they've upgraded the Hataks beyond the Ancient upgrades Anubis put in them (which is certainly possible).

In the context of this battle, all I see is a 304 trying desperately to keep fighters and transports away from the base as it's primary mission, while getting pounded by Hataks, and then working towards evac of the base when they see all is lost.

Ships with shields up also seem to do pretty well against the beam weapons in Atlantis.

Example?

[CaptJodan]

A lot of ancient tech seems to require actual people to touch the controls to make them work. This ship doesn't seem to have the ancient-gene security, but I suspect it's not as easy as just hitting a button with a rock.

You know, at first I thought I'd really hate the whole "crappy, primitive looking" Ancient ship thing, but the way they've handled it, I think it works superbly. Atlantis is at least 10,000 years old. How much older, I don't know if we know, but it's almost certainly younger than this 100,000+ year old ship, if Rush is to be believed. The ATA security isn't the only thing that makes this ship seem "off" from what we've seen of Ancient design, but it's so old, it's technology is actually probably much more primitive. Virtually nothing we've seen so far is automatic. The Kenos would probably be somewhat useful if controlled by the mind, like drones, but we see a simple computer interface instead. The ship's automated systems don't seem near as welcoming as Atlantis'. Everything looks and feels more industrial and hands on, which makes a lot of sense if you figure the Ancients advanced somewhat between those two periods.

[NecronLord]

That we know of. Honestly, the constant moving of the goalposts on this one gets old. First, the weapons were supposedly only effective against the Ori, because that was what they were being designed for.

Huh. I don't remember any such quote. Just that they were the most advanced weapons, recently developed for the war.

Now that we know they can hurt more than just the Ori they were suddenly just better weapons, but not, alone, able to take on the Ori. It just happened that Earth had a ZPM equipped ship that worked, and the Asgard happened to develop weapons that could hurt Ori ships but only with a ZPM, which they themselves don't have. Yeah.

Umm. Odyessy was ZPM equipped in order to fight the Ori. The others were not. I don't see why the idea that it could have markedly higher firepower and resilience (in that the Ori don't two-shot it...) is particularly odd, given that we've had explicit statements that a ZPM boosts shields and engines greatly.

The fleet didn't have numerical advantage.

They had two-to-one when they were ambushing the lone Auroas. I even edited that bit so it wouldn't be ambiguous.

Counted 5 confirmed kills on screen, including ships in the background. Not that the numbers matter.

I count three or four, as I remember it. An explosion isn't enough to say it's dead - we also see Auroras with big explosions on them that clear and they're (to our eyes) intact. As far as I know, we see three or four broken apart, one by beams, one in background, and the one that got droned.

No one denies that the battle was going to swing in the Asuran's favor, but primarily because they had more ships to lose. Carter describes that their new beam weapons are highly effective in one of her briefings, and from what we see on screen, she's not wrong.

Umm. I'm not denying that. It's pretty obvious a 304 is superior to an Auroa, at least if the Aurora class doesn't use drones...

And then remember when the O'Neills showed up and said "suck on our new, improved ships, bitch",

Remember that an O'Neill is fucking enormous? And by that point, Anubis had only one ha'tak? And that there were three of them? What the fuck kind of point are you trying to make?

and they ran away? Ancient shields apparently weren't enough on a regular Hatak to be at all confident of victory against an Asgard O'Neill.

When outnumbered three to one...

Yet an O'Neill (or whatever the fuck you call that badly scaled copy of one) were shooting blanks at the Ori.

You and I both know that was either some kind of pocket version, or the wrong model entirely.

Judging from shield interactions (If that's even a reliable source, but it's all I have to go by) Beliskner shields aren't the type the humans are using anymore. I fully expect that a non-ZPMed 304 would be badly damaged in 2 shots of an Ori beam even with the new Asgard upgrades, and destroyed with a third. Doesn't mean they couldn't fight back more effectively than they had in Camelot.

There's no explicit mention of upgraded shields on the standard ships since Camelot. There is no evidence for improved ship durability. Razor - the shields and hull are not upgraded.

Assuming Carter kept to the time-table she laid out, she stayed in that battle 2 minutes after the bridge was already half ablaze, and the ship had clearly been fighting for several minutes before that. It was said that the transports would be there in "less than 3 minutes", all of which Carter's ship survived bombardment under. What you're suggesting is that the Hatak shielding we've seen before is now so effective that it can last over 5+ minutes of beam attack (because you assume she used them), while a Hive Ship could be broken in as little as 2 shots, as in "The Last Man", as well as previous Asuran battles where the weapons were said to be "very effective" against the enemy.

Err, I'm suggesting that the ha'taks could have done enough damage to make her back off; for all we know they caught her with the shields down and shot the beam weapons off it, or send cloaked alkesh in beforehand to *teleport* them off while her shields were down. We really don't know much about how the battle went, but I see no reason to find it stretches credibility that much. Upgraded Ha'taks were presented as pretty powerful, able to mix it with actual Asgard ships, I see no reason they should be grossly inferior to Ancient/Asuran ships or Ori ones.

Look, I know you hate the beam weapons with a passion. Good news is I doubt we'll see them for a long time now. It's a new gate. But to suggest that they'd be ineffectual against a few Hataks....even with ancient shields when we know these ships have engaged such ships in the past, is just dishonest.

What?

There's no direct evidence that the beam weapons are more or less powerful with or without a ZPM,

The shield is. Without a ZPM beam weapons don't matter, by the time you've done the five to seven shots necessary to kill an Ori toilet, it'll have you sucking vacuum, because it also has a badass beam weapon.

and there's no justification to say that they're immune to the Hatak's shields unless they've upgraded the Hataks beyond the Ancient upgrades Anubis put in them (which is certainly possible).

We've no reason to conclude that an upgraded ha'tak is grossly inferior to anything of equivalent mass, either.

Incidentally, I don't hate the beam weapons at all, I rather like the concept and effect used. I dislike the recent tendancy of stargate fans to talk down all aliens to the point that it seems like the likes of the wraith live only at the sufference of the Tau'ri. It's poor drama.

Honestly, I envision this battle having the Hammond shooting up one or more ha'taks before taking so much damage herself from enemy weapons that Carter transfers weapons powerto shields (this has been mentioned a couple of times since the beams came in) beams up everyone on the surface when she sees that the planet's going to go, and skiddaddles.

I loathed the 'battle' in Ark of Truth precisely because they didn't tear any Ori ships to bits - I like consistancy and the idea that these replicators couldn't fight effectively bugged me no end. That movie could have been greatly improved by the replicators actually fighting back against the Ori ships.

[NecronLord]

You know, at first I thought I'd really hate the whole "crappy, primitive looking" Ancient ship thing, but the way they've handled it, I think it works superbly. Atlantis is at least 10,000 years old. How much older, I don't know if we know, but it's almost certainly younger than this 100,000+ year old ship, if Rush is to be believed.

Actually, Atlantis left Earth several million years ago according to the Rising prologue. Perhaps that'll be retconned at some point. However, this ship may still be older, but more importantly, it's been un-maintained for much longer than Atlantis has; Ancients were on Atlantis ten thousand years ago, and even took the time to pack stuff up in dust covers before they left. This ship has been long past its intended billion light year service.