nBSG ep 4.16: "Deadlock" Talkback (SPOILERS)

[Imperial Overlord]

A badly written episode saved from being utterly wretched by the actors.

How did Boomer find the fleet in a fucking Raptor? No one even asks the fucking question, let alone answers it.

Tyrol's characterization has been mentioned a lot, but the blog answer is piss-poor. Tyrol has always been a well loved man on Galactica. The deck crew's loyalty to him has always been intense and returned by Tyrol. Now that he's over his self-imposed isolation and back among that he's just going to chuck it like it was nothing? Bullshit.

The arming of Baltar's cult. Intermediate answers like "arresting the Sons of Ares since we have a dozen witnesses of them committing crimes" or "forming a real police force" aren't even discussed. Instead its presented as "status quo, Baltar, or Centurions." Talk about black-white fallacies.

The really irritating and fairly pointless backbiting with Ellen could have been cut two-thirds. There's what, five episodes left and how many unanswered questions and unresolved plot lines and this is how precious screen time is being spent?

Voted a 2.

[Crazy_Vasey]

t(and it's questionable if the fleet will want to follow Tigh the Cylon)

They didn't want to follow him when he was a human so I don't see there being any chance at all they'd follow him now.

[Anguirus]

and yet Ellen cannot understand that Tigh A) would think that she was dead so it wouldn't matter who he fucked or knocked up, and B) would not ever think to consider Six one of his "children" because none of them knew their past lives?

I think this complaint is a little unfair. She wasn't terribly upset when Tigh told her he had sex with Caprica-Six. She did observe that it's a little bit weird, and from her perspective it now is. When Tyrol and Boomer had sex they were both ignorant...when Ellen and Cavil did she was ignorant and he was kinda sick. And then Tigh tells her about his "mental porn" of her, which lets face it is also quite weird.

But she doesn't really hit the roof until she finds out about the baby, which in her mind means that Tigh loves Caprica-Six more than he loves her (not to mention that "incest" is squickier if a child results). Ellen has fucked lots of people, but she's only ever loved Tigh. Therefore she sees not the sex but the intimacy as a betrayal. I think she realizes that her feelings are not entirely reasonable, which is why she doesn't go off on Caprica-Six. However, she is still the manipulative bitch she always was, so she'll use the new situation to try and get what she wants, even as she deals with her own tortured feelings.

So in short, Ellen's characterization was not one of my many problems with this episode.

[apocolypse]

So in short, Ellen's characterization was not one of my many problems with this episode.

I think, that for me at least, was not so much that Ellen's characterization was off (after all, we all know what a drunken whore she is) but rather that it was a let down. After seeing her as intelligent and capable of feeling more than jealousy and lust in last week's ep, it was a bit of a bummer to see her return to business as usual. I was hoping to see more of what we saw with Cavil. Drunken whore Ellen is someone I could care less about, off her again as she's a nuisance. Intelligent personable Ellen is someone I'd like to see more of.

[Anguirus]

I don't think she was excessively drunk in this episode, and she certainly wasn't a whore. She just didn't know how to deal with the revelation that Tigh loved Caprica...and you know, at heart, she's just not that great a person.

She did show intelligence in this ep, and genuine emotion. "Old Ellen" probably wouldn't have regretted what she did...this one certainly does.

[Admiral Valdemar]

A badly written episode saved from being utterly wretched by the actors.

How did Boomer find the fleet in a fucking Raptor? No one even asks the fucking question, let alone answers it.

It is quite possible that, as mentioned earlier, Cavil knows where the fleet. If Cavil knows, Ellen knows.

Tyrol's characterization has been mentioned a lot, but the blog answer is piss-poor. Tyrol has always been a well loved man on Galactica. The deck crew's loyalty to him has always been intense and returned by Tyrol. Now that he's over his self-imposed isolation and back among that he's just going to chuck it like it was nothing? Bullshit.

On the other hand, he is still a Cylon and there is still a huge persecution problem aboard. Given his past ups and downs, he's probably wondering if he can start a new life away from the shit he's been through, especially if Cavil's still out there waiting to get back at the humans. I can't say it makes perfect sense right now, but I can certainly see him thinking that way when questioning his position.

The arming of Baltar's cult. Intermediate answers like "arresting the Sons of Ares since we have a dozen witnesses of them committing crimes" or "forming a real police force" aren't even discussed. Instead its presented as "status quo, Baltar, or Centurions." Talk about black-white fallacies.

While arming the cult isn't a good thing, we don't know what the onboard security force is like right now, and they're probably more concerned with overseeing the Cylons fixing the Bucket herself. I can't help but think the arming of Baltar's group is more down to helping his popularity win over disillusioned poor people more than anything. Think of all the crap Adama and the military have brought about and how these people aren't exactly on their list of priorities.

The really irritating and fairly pointless backbiting with Ellen could have been cut two-thirds. There's what, five episodes left and how many unanswered questions and unresolved plot lines and this is how precious screen time is being spent?

To be honest, I think this episode was all about Ellen proving that, despite all of what she has done in the past as shown last week, she can still be subject to the same flaws she was attacking John on. In other words, her supposed superiority is undermined by the fact that she is playing these games with relationships, while Cavil wants to commit genocide because he's a wanker.

Now you have to question both sides of the Cylon species. Now you see why these problems don't go away.

[apocolypse]

I don't think she was excessively drunk in this episode, and she certainly wasn't a whore. She just didn't know how to deal with the revelation that Tigh loved Caprica...and you know, at heart, she's just not that great a person.

She did show intelligence in this ep, and genuine emotion. "Old Ellen" probably wouldn't have regretted what she did...this one certainly does.

Points taken. And while she wasn't a whore or whatnot this ep, that's just how I've come to characterize her. However, I would liked to have seen more of last week's Ellen as opposed to a return to the same jealous psycho (maybe I should call her Jealous Psycho Ellen, but Drunken Whore is more fun) Ellen from before. I hope that side is explored a bit more as she was far more sympathetic and likable, at least for me.

[fgalkin]

Ugh.

Finally caught up with nBSG's final season, wish that I hadn't. Just...ugh.

nBSG should have been canceled after Season 2. Then it would have joined the ranks of the "awesome but cancelled" shows.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[phongn]

Ugh.

Finally caught up with nBSG's final season, wish that I hadn't. Just...ugh.

nBSG should have been canceled after Season 2. Then it would have joined the ranks of the "awesome but cancelled" shows.

No, the studio executives shouldn't have interfered with S3 and then maybe they could've kept up the quality

[fgalkin]

Ugh.

Finally caught up with nBSG's final season, wish that I hadn't. Just...ugh.

nBSG should have been canceled after Season 2. Then it would have joined the ranks of the "awesome but cancelled" shows.

No, the studio executives shouldn't have interfered with S3 and then maybe they could've kept up the quality

How does studio involvement affect the fact that RDM ran out of story around New Caprica and started making shit up as he went along? The choice of Ellen Tigh as the final cylon (or even the concept of the Final Five) was not made until late Season 3. Storylines got pulled out of the ass, plot threads were left hanging, and the studio had nothing to do with that.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Anguirus]

nBSG should have been canceled after Season 2. Then it would have joined the ranks of the "awesome but cancelled" shows.

...and a large number of phenomenal performances and episodes would never have seen the light of day. Gotta disagree. Even if I accepted the thesis that Season 4 is of poor quality, I would rather have an ending to the story than an indefinite cliffhanger.

Mind you, I do agree that after Exodus Season 3 ran off the rails, but I think the decision to make one more season and end it saved the show. This episode's mediocrity is an anomaly considering the overall high quality of the season (and even it had some truly standout moments and performances). Granted, it's much less of a "hard sci-fi" show now and that turns many people off, but really, that was blown out of the water by season 1's "Flesh and Bone."

[Vympel]

I've commenced watching nBSG again from the miniseries since a few weeks ago with a friend who's never seen the show (she loves it) - we're about to watch Black Market (we usually put away four to five episodes a session). I'm not aware of any plot threads that have been left hanging from Season 1 or Season 2. Season 3 post-Exodus is undoubtedly a weak season, true, but I think Season 4 is great so far.

This episode is definitely a weak one -I don't care about Baltar and his cult, and the decision to give them weapons was absolutely inexplicable. I enjoyed the Final Five + Rebel Three (though Leoben was annoyingly absent) drama and the performances were all great.

I don't get the Jane Espenson hate, the line about going to the head re: the little project Adama had been working on was fantastic.

Still, it had good performances nonetheless.

And for those whinging that there's only a few episodes to go - the finale (Daybreak Pt 1 and Pt 2) is 3 hours long, for frak's sake. And on the DVD it'll be even longer. I'm not particularly worried that they don't have times to wrap things up.

[Anguirus]

I didn't mind the jokes (well, the ones that made it in the show). I mind that Tyrol was out of character for the first time in...ever, and the humongous logic hole re: Boomer and Ellen finding the fleet. It's probable that neither of these were entirely Espenson's fault...nevertheless, it was her responsibility to justify them.

It's still a 3.

[Ubiquitous]

A badly written episode saved from being utterly wretched by the actors.

How did Boomer find the fleet in a fucking Raptor? No one even asks the fucking question, let alone answers it.

Tyrol's characterization has been mentioned a lot, but the blog answer is piss-poor. Tyrol has always been a well loved man on Galactica. The deck crew's loyalty to him has always been intense and returned by Tyrol. Now that he's over his self-imposed isolation and back among that he's just going to chuck it like it was nothing? Bullshit.

The arming of Baltar's cult. Intermediate answers like "arresting the Sons of Ares since we have a dozen witnesses of them committing crimes" or "forming a real police force" aren't even discussed. Instead its presented as "status quo, Baltar, or Centurions." Talk about black-white fallacies.

The really irritating and fairly pointless backbiting with Ellen could have been cut two-thirds. There's what, five episodes left and how many unanswered questions and unresolved plot lines and this is how precious screen time is being spent?

Voted a 2.

Thank you for taking sense. I can't accurately express how disappointed I have been in the last two episodes considering the series is almost over.

[Imperial Overlord]

It is quite possible that, as mentioned earlier, Cavil knows where the fleet. If Cavil knows, Ellen knows.

Exactly why the question should have been asked. I don't object to them finding the fleet, that was obvious from previous episode. I object to no one in the fleet cares how Cylons flying a Raptor could find them.

On the other hand, he is still a Cylon and there is still a huge persecution problem aboard. Given his past ups and downs, he's probably wondering if he can start a new life away from the shit he's been through, especially if Cavil's still out there waiting to get back at the humans. I can't say it makes perfect sense right now, but I can certainly see him thinking that way when questioning his position.

Questioning his position would have been fine. He didn't. He was immediately and enthusiastically voting to leave.

While arming the cult isn't a good thing, we don't know what the onboard security force is like right now, and they're probably more concerned with overseeing the Cylons fixing the Bucket herself. I can't help but think the arming of Baltar's group is more down to helping his popularity win over disillusioned poor people more than anything. Think of all the crap Adama and the military have brought about and how these people aren't exactly on their list of priorities.

We know this decision is playing with nitro. We know the characters who made it are smart enough to see that as well. It's also poorly disguised writer's fiat since it takes one plea by Baltar, who they loath, to make them give his loonies assault rifles. Again, it would have been easier to swallow if something less extreme was shown not to work or considered and then discarded. Say drop one of those Adama looks at putty being spread scenes (or even two of them) for a minute or two of discussion between him and Rosalin).

To be honest, I think this episode was all about Ellen proving that, despite all of what she has done in the past as shown last week, she can still be subject to the same flaws she was attacking John on. In other words, her supposed superiority is undermined by the fact that she is playing these games with relationships, while Cavil wants to commit genocide because he's a wanker.

Now you have to question both sides of the Cylon species. Now you see why these problems don't go away.

I don't need half of an episode being devoted Ellen's antics to know that the renegade Cylons and the Final Five aren't saints when Tori gets that point across just fine with just a few lines.

[Thanas]

It was a small thing, but I like that they again used Paulla and her less-than-concrete allegiance to Baltar. It has been shown in the past that she doesn't respect him the way Jeanne does, and it was pretty clear this episode that we haven't heard that last of that.

Gaius=Jesus
Paula=Paulus.

And now you know. One is having the lofty ideas, the other one will eventually drag them down into a hate-filled mutation.

[Vympel]

Re: the plothole about how they found the Fleet, I imagine if they have any brains they'll answer that question in the next episode when they're interrogating Boomer / trying her.

[General Zod]

I can't remember, did they ever jump away from Earth's solar system? Because if not then it wouldn't be too much to speculate that Ellen figured they were somewhere around Earth and set their jump-coordinates for there.

The Face of the Enemy Webisodes seemed to imply that they had started journeying again and left Earth behind, but I'm unsure.

[Vympel]

Ok I dunno wtf just happened, but Gen. Zod's post up there is actually me talking.

[tim31]

Ha, that's so meta Vympel.

Well hopefully Boomer ponies up some answers next ep. I daresay there will be a flashback or two; Alessandro Juliani is guest starring, so it might expound the Face Of The Enemy plotline a bit further. Or Gaeta could become Boomer's very own Head Gaeta

Further on next week's episode, wouldn't it be a riot if Starbuck's arrival on Earth via time travel had actually somehow caused the holocaust that had destroyed civilization? It'd fit well with her Harbinger of Doom™ role.

[apocolypse]

Further on next week's episode, wouldn't it be a riot if Starbuck's arrival on Earth via time travel had actually somehow caused the holocaust that had destroyed civilization? It'd fit well with her Harbinger of Doom™ role.

Ohhh....I like it. I really fucking like it. It's so wrong and so right at the same time.

[Captain Kruger]

Problematic episode for the reasons mentioned by others above: a massive departure from established character for the most rock-solid person on the show, piss-poor decisions by people in power, and spending an hour on filler material when there's precious few hours left.

Tyrol's the most everyman character, never even shown an interest in Cylon allegiance, has enough loyalty to Adama to move over to Galactica from Valkyrie with him, and has just gotten his old position on the ship back. When he not only voted to kiss his life with the fleet goodbye, but did it with the same casual demeanor he would if he agreed to go have a drink with someone, I felt my nuts getting kicked up into my stomach.

No matter how short-staffed and insecure Galactica may be after the mutiny, arming a cult known only for religious mumbo-jumbo and spreading their legs for Baltar is as the very top of the stupidometer. How many marines would it really take to go down to Dogsville and disarm or obliterate the Sons of Ares? Show of force made, message sent.

I didn't have a problem with Ellen's characterization. I've known several women who are intelligent, thoughtful, and focused in most aspects of their lives but revert to petty, hormone-controlled children as soon as their husbands walk in the room. Nothing at all abnormal here.

[tim31]

Re: Tyrol, while I agree it was out of character, I would accept the explanation that Tory had been screwing around with his mind, the poison-tongued harlot. I don't know whether they'll do the 'Tyrol finds out Tory killed Cally and breaks Tory in two' plotline or whether they've conveniently assasinated Cally's character enough that Tyrol wouldn't really give a shit. But one thing I keep wondering is whether Tory's fanatacism agenda is going to cause big waves again.

[Vympel]

Further on next week's episode, wouldn't it be a riot if Starbuck's arrival on Earth via time travel had actually somehow caused the holocaust that had destroyed civilization? It'd fit well with her Harbinger of Doom™ role.

If she really had, then the wreckage of her Viper Mk II - never mind her dessicated corpose, with blonde hair still under the helmet, would be long gone by the time the Fleet arrived. 2,000 years would leave next to nothing behind, AFAIK.

[Captain Kruger]

Re: Tyrol, while I agree it was out of character, I would accept the explanation that Tory had been screwing around with his mind, the poison-tongued harlot. I don't know whether they'll do the 'Tyrol finds out Tory killed Cally and breaks Tory in two' plotline or whether they've conveniently assasinated Cally's character enough that Tyrol wouldn't really give a shit. But one thing I keep wondering is whether Tory's fanatacism agenda is going to cause big waves again.

I'm so passionately praying that Tory suffers a horrific death. I just want to put a piece of rebar through her face every time she's on camera. I find it almost impossible that she won't cause a lot more havoc before the end.