Darksider wrote:And why are they bitching about the modern japan they come from anyways? it's not like japan has it that bad, their economy is doing good, and even the two cities that got nuked would have been fully rebuilt by the time that the destroyer got sent back.
Not really bitching about it per se, as attempting to (in vain) save as many lives as possible by intervening in history. They didn't really see anything else which they could do, as the Mirai can only stay on the sidelines, hidden for so long. The crew was already getting tense from being so dislocated from reality.
I'm guessing they're assuming history will continue as it did in their previous timeline, but with extensive modifications.
Darksider wrote:And why are they bitching about the modern japan they come from anyways? it's not like japan has it that bad, their economy is doing good, and even the two cities that got nuked would have been fully rebuilt by the time that the destroyer got sent back.
Not really bitching about it per se, as attempting to (in vain) save as many lives as possible by intervening in history. They didn't really see anything else which they could do, as the Mirai can only stay on the sidelines, hidden for so long. The crew was already getting tense from being so dislocated from reality.
I'm guessing they're assuming history will continue as it did in their previous timeline, but with extensive modifications.
It's not even a given they could return - depending on the time travel model, they have already altered the timeline and "destroyed" the future, or been hurled to a parallel universe with no path back, etc. etc. That isn't the point of the show in any case, and none of them are physicists who could even begin to start trying to come up with a rationalization for what happened.
I do know how to spell
AniThyng is merely the name I gave to what became my favourite Baldur's Gate II mage character
Japanese history education tends to stop somewhere between the Russo-Japanese war and 1930 (or it may be covered in the short period after exams when none of the students give a damn since it won't be on the exams). It's timed perfectly so they never really have to talk about the late unpleasantness, and as a result most Japanese people who were born after the war really don't know much about it.
Now, while I would hope that people who end up high in the ranks of military command would be a bit better educated on their history than average, we're still talking about a huge cultural gulf of understanding between people from then and now. The captain of Mirai may know better, but he's been raised entirely differently and doesn't have that ingrained feel for the time, like the racism (seriously, how many people these days are racist against Japanese people, aside from people who live in countries that had been occupied, which makes it understandable in a way) and the indoctrination. They're thinking in a modern mindset when it doesn't apply.
It really looks like the start of a tragedy where they try to make things better and accidentally cause catastrophe.
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SDNW4 Nation: The Refuge And, on Nova Terra, Al-Stan the Totally and Completely Honest and Legitimate Weapons Dealer and Used Starship Salesman slept on a bed made of money, with a blaster under his pillow and his sombrero pulled over his face. This is to say, he slept very well indeed.
Samuel wrote:Except they can't win. Japan will lose to the United States. The plan is to get the Americans to sign a peace agreement... which the US has no reason to agree to. Their actions just make things worse- the longer the war goes on, the more horrific the suffering on the home front becomes and the more people they lose.
Congratulations, you've just discovered dramatic conflict.
And why are they bitching about the modern japan they come from anyways?
Err, they're not, in general, complaining about the Japan they came from. Are you even reading the thread? One of the main personal conflicts comes from the realisation of the fact that if they want their Japan of the future to happen, the Japan of now must be destroyed. The ideal of 'Zipang' belongs to the antagonist, who is an Imperial Japanese officer that they end up saving (who died in the real world of the time).
ray245 wrote:Won't that mean that the U.S. will be able to start the strategic bombing of the home islands with a fully equipped production facility for atomic bombs?
Uh, once again the US is nuking everything in sight (nevermind that it only, ever, nuked two cities and even that produced a lot of controversy)... nevermind that the mastermind of "Zipang" knows that the Axis should be curbed to allow some sort of truce, and sends a dude to kill Hitler in Germany, right? Some of the people there think big. Like "what if there's a capitulation in Europe, while Japan at the same time becomes stronger" big.
Do you really know for certain the US will just go apeshit nukaholic on the Japanese in absolutely any case? Why? There's really no explanation for that.
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The nukes were primarily meant to end the war quickly with as little casualties as possible (I'm using "little" lightly here), because a full military incursion would've been estimated to be much, much more costly, on both sides. The Japanese had a very nationalist culture back then, and were quite prepared to fight to the death.
Samuel wrote:No Stark, I haven't seen it. I am incompetant when it comes to procuring anime.
Except they can't win. Japan will lose to the United States. The plan is to get the Americans to sign a peace agreement... which the US has no reason to agree to. Their actions just make things worse- the longer the war goes on, the more horrific the suffering on the home front becomes and the more people they lose.
To be fair, they probably don't realize it.
This is hilarious. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about AND you make yourself look like an idiot because you can't understand drama. I'll add you to the list of SDNer's whose opinion on anything literary I completely ignore.
PROTIP - everything you just said is a part of the story. Whoops! Indeed, whole episodes are devoted TO THIS VERY IDEA!
Juubi Karakuchi wrote: As to whether a modern ship could miss a WW2 submarine, it depends. Despite what the US navy might claim, modern diesel subs can be highly effective. They use pretty much the same technology as nuclear subs, only losing out in terms of endurance underwater (they can't circumnavigate the globe underwater without refueling). A modern diesel sub is can avoid detection by switching off its engine and sitting on the bottom, whereas a nuclear sub would still be making noise (you can't just shut down a nuclear reactor), though efforts have been made to remedy this in recent designs.
Thus, whether a WW2 sub could avoid a modern ship depends on a variety of factors. It would depend on the exact conditions, what the sub was doing, and the quality of the crew.
A modern diesel sub and a WWII diesel sub are very, VERY different. Most notably, the WWII sub has no quieting whatsoever -- even running on batteries, it's making too much noise to avoid detection.
ray245 wrote:Won't that mean that the U.S. will be able to start the strategic bombing of the home islands with a fully equipped production facility for atomic bombs?
Uh, once again the US is nuking everything in sight (nevermind that it only, ever, nuked two cities and even that produced a lot of controversy)... nevermind that the mastermind of "Zipang" knows that the Axis should be curbed to allow some sort of truce, and sends a dude to kill Hitler in Germany, right? Some of the people there think big. Like "what if there's a capitulation in Europe, while Japan at the same time becomes stronger" big.
Do you really know for certain the US will just go apeshit nukaholic on the Japanese in absolutely any case? Why? There's really no explanation for that.
Err Stas, where did that post came from? From what I understand, I did not make such a comment in this thread.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
ray245 wrote:
Err Stas, where did that post came from? From what I understand, I did not make such a comment in this thread.
that was mine.
And this is why you don't watch anything produced by Ronald D. Moore after he had his brain surgically removed and replaced with a bag of elephant semen.-Gramzamber, on why Caprica sucks
Exactly how much good can the crew do for Japan, though? It's not like they brought a nuclear reprocessing plant and IC manufacturing equipment back with them. They're bound to run out of ammunition like missiles and any historical knowledge they have is going to be useless after an extended time past the point of divergence.
Turns out that a five way cross over between It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, the Ali G Show, Fargo, Idiocracy and Veep is a lot less funny when you're actually living in it.
They're bound to run out of ammunition like missiles and any historical knowledge they have is going to be useless after an extended time past the point of divergence.
Actually, the knowledge of modern technology is never useless regardless which course of history we are following. The mere knowledge of 60 years of industrial technological progress is an awesome argument not just for the military, but for any nation and any economy in existence.
That aside, in the war indeed they are limited by the usefulness of their ship and ammunition which cannot be replaced. They could still inflict enormously heavy casualties on the enemy navies, especially if they are present in a large naval battle.
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Stas Bush wrote:Actually, the knowledge of modern technology is never useless regardless which course of history we are following. The mere knowledge of 60 years of industrial technological progress is an awesome argument not just for the military, but for any nation and any economy in existence.
I don't see them being able to do that much with it, given the time frame involved. The control and processing done by computers would be JFM for people pretty much stuck with vacuum tubes, as would relay logic to people not instructed in it but familiar with computers. Plus unless this is a whole bunch of engineers really familiar with the development of industrial technology, they wouldn't necessarily have a clue how to get from A to B. Not to mention almost guranteed not to have Intel chip blueprints on hand.
It's kind of like Nuclear Fission technology. Sure anyone can tell you how to make a basic A bomb, but the key Manhattan Project technologies aren't exactly common knowledge.
Samuel wrote:No Stark, I haven't seen it. I am incompetant when it comes to procuring anime.
Except they can't win. Japan will lose to the United States. The plan is to get the Americans to sign a peace agreement... which the US has no reason to agree to. Their actions just make things worse- the longer the war goes on, the more horrific the suffering on the home front becomes and the more people they lose.
To be fair, they probably don't realize it.
This is hilarious. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about AND you make yourself look like an idiot because you can't understand drama. I'll add you to the list of SDNer's whose opinion on anything literary I completely ignore.
PROTIP - everything you just said is a part of the story. Whoops! Indeed, whole episodes are devoted TO THIS VERY IDEA!
Stark, I have no taste. Put me toward the bottom. Seriously, I can't tell crap from good stuff most of the time- I've been working on that recently.
FOG3 wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:Actually, the knowledge of modern technology is never useless regardless which course of history we are following. The mere knowledge of 60 years of industrial technological progress is an awesome argument not just for the military, but for any nation and any economy in existence.
I don't see them being able to do that much with it, given the time frame involved. The control and processing done by computers would be JFM for people pretty much stuck with vacuum tubes, as would relay logic to people not instructed in it but familiar with computers. Plus unless this is a whole bunch of engineers really familiar with the development of industrial technology, they wouldn't necessarily have a clue how to get from A to B. Not to mention almost guranteed not to have Intel chip blueprints on hand.
It's kind of like Nuclear Fission technology. Sure anyone can tell you how to make a basic A bomb, but the key Manhattan Project technologies aren't exactly common knowledge.
Making atom bombs requires a large amount of complicated steps. And lots of material. Making radar or other improvements would be easier.
I wasn't implying they could make nukes, Samuel. Quite the opposite.
They have RADAR and SONAR already, Samuel. The IJN sets of the time aren't as good as the USN ones of the era, but they've had them for a while and I expect the limitation have as much to due with the manufacturing base as anything else.
I doubt the JSDF guys on a modern destroyer know how to make a 50s/60s era transistor and have it in mass production well within what little time would be left before the war concludes regardless of who they gave it too. It's at least late 1940 by the start of the series, seems as how they encounter the Yamato. Exactly what are you expecting a modern destroyer crew to give these guys?
Actually, the ship appears to have an unusual level of record-keeping, at least in the manga - in which Kasuda actually does use his knowledge gained Kahn-like from the Mirai to attempt to build a nuclear weapon (I've never read it so I don't know any details). The show is not this bizarre, but the Mirai does have a lot more information in it's records than you'd expect a warship to carry with it.
Checked the Wiki entry. Okay start day is June 1942, aka Battle of Midway.
Well the manga is willing to go into pure fiction then. I doubt the Japanese have access to the critical classified Manhattan Project data, period. Let alone would be crazy enough to have it on a surface combatant.
The premise is interesting though, and if executed well, such details can be overlooked.
I think the whole conciet of the 'records room' is an acknowledgement that a 'proper' warship wouldn't have any reference works or knowledge that useful to the past, so they've inserted a 'time capsule' into the ship to that Kasuda can find out all kinds of information in order to become the antagonist. The show works dramatically, so I can't really complain about those kind of conciets.
Stark wrote:I think the whole conciet of the 'records room' is an acknowledgement that a 'proper' warship wouldn't have any reference works or knowledge that useful to the past, so they've inserted a 'time capsule' into the ship to that Kasuda can find out all kinds of information in order to become the antagonist. The show works dramatically, so I can't really complain about those kind of conciets.
Obviously training ships in the Japanese self defense force also conduct exams and require prospective officers to write history and technical papers for their classes to see how well they can think when on board ships.
Any navy people know if that makes sense or is it really stupid?
Does the ship's library really need discussion? The Mirai has an unusually comprehensive array of historical and technical materials available, for dramatic reasons pertaining to the characters. That's reason enough, and it's not particularly offensive.
I went back to rewatch this inspired by this thread, and I think it's worth noting to Samuel that Spoiler
towards the end, the protaganist (the ship's XO) meets with Mitsumasa Yonai , a historical figure that wikipedia tells me was a key player in Japan's surrender to the allies, and in the show at least, these scenes act to speak for the view that Japan indeed had to lose the war in order to prosper in the future. At no point in the show did the crew wholeheartedly decide to simply join the IJN and necessarily support Imperial Japan's atrocities. It may not be so easy to understand from the perspective of one who sees with self-righteous clarity the moral failings of that era, but they *are* still Japanese, these people are their relatives, and I suppose from a certain point of view, the Navy always had a sort of romantic honour that allows one to rationalize blame away from them towards the Army. The army which isn't exactly depicted flatteringly in the show either.(the Kempetai is acknowledged to be cruel, the army officer shown is a reckless, foolish fanatic, etc.)
I do know how to spell
AniThyng is merely the name I gave to what became my favourite Baldur's Gate II mage character
The Kempeitai aren't depicted in a fashion much different from the Gestapo as I understand.
Stark wrote:Kasuda actually does use his knowledge gained Kahn-like from the Mirai to attempt to build a nuclear weapon
Um... I thought he actually captured some sort of scientist capable of constructing a nuclear weapon and started some sort of a nuclear project, not that he got the knowledge on how to make the thing in detail; i.e. he merely knew of the possibility of such a weapon and the basic construction concepts.
FOG3 wrote:I doubt the Japanese have access to the critical classified Manhattan Project data, period.
Why do you doubt the Japanese have access to how construct nuclear weapons? I believe as of now most industrialized nations have produced their own sets of engineering documents to make them. That they don't is a political choice, not because after 60 years they don't know, or haven't detailed in some paper, how to make a crude atomic bomb.
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I haven't read the manga, but in the anime I don't recall Kusaka ever mentioning a nuke being part of his plans. Spoiler
His main initial goal is revealed to be getting Japan access to all the hidden oil in Daqing, Manchuria, which wasnt historically found until 1959.
"The Cosmos is expanding every second everyday, but their minds are slowly shrinking as they close their eyes and pray." - MC Hawking "It's like a kids game. A morbid, blood-soaked Tetris game..." - Mike Rowe (Dirty Jobs)
Indeed, whole episodes are devoted TO THIS VERY IDEA! 
