Zerg Vs. Btech

[Batman]

200 tons, huh? So were do the other 99.999999999999% of the energy go?
I swear sometimes I think BattleTech rules were intentionally designed to make no sense.

[Vejut]

Yeah, they generally have a soap opera relationship to reality. By the way, IIRC from AT2, one ton hydrogen fuel in BattleTech costs ~750 C-bills, varying depending on where you are (more in periphery, less in centeral IS). Might explain why civilian vehicles don't care--that comes out to all of $5 1990 money, or a little less, per kg of hydrogen, and they probably don't use it up that fast.

[PainRack]

You asked for the reason why this isn't done. i told you the in game universe before, cost and the significant wastage of fuel/power.

What significant wastage of fuel/power? The official amount of fuel needed to recharge the K-F drive off the reactor over the course of several days is?
And what wastage of power while we're at it? The reactor need not produce more power than is actually consumed. Unless the rules say the reactor consumes X tons of fuel a day regardless that one doesn't fly.

For every hour you're charging the drive? IIRC, you're burning several tons of fuel.

And let's not talk about how a kilogram is already more than sufficient to meet the entire power supply.

[PainRack]

Yeah, they generally have a soap opera relationship to reality. By the way, IIRC from AT2, one ton hydrogen fuel in BattleTech costs ~750 C-bills, varying depending on where you are (more in periphery, less in centeral IS). Might explain why civilian vehicles don't care--that comes out to all of $5 1990 money, or a little less, per kg of hydrogen, and they probably don't use it up that fast.

Using 1990 money, 1 C-bill=5 USD.(MW 2nd edt. 3rd edt gives it as 3 USD as of 2000 rates)

so, 750/1000*5=$3.50

[Coalition]

200 tons, huh? So were do the other 99.999999999999% of the energy go?
I swear sometimes I think BattleTech rules were intentionally designed to make no sense.

IIRC, the rules were designed so there would still be a reason for the solar sails in use, as that is the typical view of the Battletech Jumpships.

So yes, they made those rules so people could keep the original imagery.

And yes, the admins on the Battletech site are pretty much saying that if it works in your games, go for it.

The combo I came up with (for trading purposes), would be sending a message to the target planet, asking for pirate point coordinates (essentially jumping to one of the target planet's LaGrange points). They reply the coordinates, and you jump there. Travel time from LaGrange points to the target planet i on the order of half a day, while travel time from a normal Jump point to the target planet is ~9-10 days. Using less than 6% the normal fuel, and a correcponding decrease in travel time is a good thing.

For planetary assaults, I'd see the Jumpships popping to the target planet's Zenith/Nadir jump point, and then doing nothing for 7 days (or however long the recharge period is). They then jump to the LaGrange point (7 days in-system would be enough to calculate the necessary pirate point), and attack from there.

The other option would be a commando team sent early to disable the planet's defenses, and a Dropship that leaves before the commandos start. The Dropship is carrying detailed data on planetary troops, current supply levels, etc. It joins with a Jumpship, and the Jumpship goes to where the invading fleet is waiting in deep space. The Jumpship transmits the jump coordinates, and the invasion fleet arrives at the pirate point, and the Dropships burn for the planet.

One idea another person had was hot-swappable Lithium-Fusion batteries. Essentially they alow for an extra jump, but get recharged normally. They also make the jump drive far more expensive. Essentially, you jump into a system with a recharge station, and swap out Li-F batteries with the station. You then jump again, using the charge from the battery, to another station, swap again, jump again, repeat. Instead of spending a week recharging from the station, you spend a few hours swapping batteries. Of course, it does require a massive infrastructure, and a very expensive Jumpship fleet to make this work.

[Straha]

Of course, it does require a massive infrastructure, and a very expensive Jumpship fleet to make this work.

Not really... that idea should work beautifully assuming the jump ships have the Li-F Batteries and that they can be swapped out because all the station would need to have on hand would be three or four batteries, the jumpship comes up, plugs in and swaps out its dead battery for a charged one and leaves all in under a day, and then the station charges up that battery switches it out with the next dead jump battery ad infinitum. Even if you have to spend the full week re-charging the batteries all you'd need to start up and keep the business flowing is a space station with multiple charge slots, four or five batteries, and the personnel. And the money you could rake in on this alone should more than cover for whatever the long term costs, especially from Military ships.

And you might be able to decrease the incredible inefficiency of the Fusion Drive charging a K-F device by hooking it up to multiple devices so that you have 90% energy loss, but with ten devices charging all at once.

[Coalition]

Not really... that idea should work beautifully assuming the jump ships have the Li-F Batteries and that they can be swapped out because all the station would need to have on hand would be three or four batteries, the jumpship comes up, plugs in and swaps out its dead battery for a charged one and leaves all in under a day, and then the station charges up that battery switches it out with the next dead jump battery ad infinitum. Even if you have to spend the full week re-charging the batteries all you'd need to start up and keep the business flowing is a space station with multiple charge slots, four or five batteries, and the personnel. And the money you could rake in on this alone should more than cover for whatever the long term costs, especially from Military ships.

And you might be able to decrease the incredible inefficiency of the Fusion Drive charging a K-F device by hooking it up to multiple devices so that you have 90% energy loss, but with ten devices charging all at once.

Key assumption - all Jumpships have Li-F batteries. That darn battery effectively triples the price of the Jumpship, and reduces its Dropship carrying capacity. After that, you need to make standardized Lithium-Fusion batteries (or just set a specific Jumpship size, and use that).

Also, you will need a charging station at every star system along the path, not to mention the infrastructure necessary to construct said space station in the meantime, not to mention fuel shipments to keep it at a jump point (effectively, it is motionless relative to the star, so it has to thrust to counteract gravity).

So you have to refit about a dozen Jumpships, and assemble 2 stations (trade between 2 systems), just for a test batch. Both systems need to have high technology in order to be able to support the jump systems for maintenance and spare parts.

Still, it would be nice. You could start off with pirate -> pirate jumps, shaving time off the transit, and make Jumpship recharging times the bottleneck in interstellar transport. You then build the recharging stations, decreasing the charging time as well.

Hmm, time to do some math for fuel consumption, maintenance, paychecks, initial investment, and more. See what is the minimum shipping needed to make that sort of structure necessary and profitable.

[PainRack]

The combo I came up with (for trading purposes), would be sending a message to the target planet, asking for pirate point coordinates (essentially jumping to one of the target planet's LaGrange points). They reply the coordinates, and you jump there. Travel time from LaGrange points to the target planet i on the order of half a day, while travel time from a normal Jump point to the target planet is ~9-10 days. Using less than 6% the normal fuel, and a correcponding decrease in travel time is a good thing.

Of course, most messages take a min of a day up to a week to get to their destination, what with the cockneyed HPG network.

The HPG network premise works. The problem rests in the nitty gritty details and that is where it utterly breaks down. Even if we discard the "50" A class stations found in MW 2nd Edt(if there truly was only 50 A stations, then the quota seems to have been used up or exceeded in the Atlas), the system just doesn't work properly.

It would make more sense if each B station could transmit to multiple A stations instead of just a single A station.

For planetary assaults, I'd see the Jumpships popping to the target planet's Zenith/Nadir jump point, and then doing nothing for 7 days (or however long the recharge period is). They then jump to the LaGrange point (7 days in-system would be enough to calculate the necessary pirate point), and attack from there.

Isn't there a rule that made intrasystem jumps extremely difficult?

[Coalition]

Of course, most messages take a min of a day up to a week to get to their destination, what with the cockneyed HPG network.

The HPG network premise works. The problem rests in the nitty gritty details and that is where it utterly breaks down. Even if we discard the "50" A class stations found in MW 2nd Edt(if there truly was only 50 A stations, then the quota seems to have been used up or exceeded in the Atlas), the system just doesn't work properly.

It would make more sense if each B station could transmit to multiple A stations instead of just a single A station.

True, which is where you get the fun of emergency HPG messages. Those are sent immediately, with a cost (IIRC) of 3d6*3d6 C-Bills per message (the random is based on the various number of stations that they have to route the signal through to get the message sent, essentially they may not be aiming at the right system, but somebody is, and eventually the message gets there). Most messages are 1 C-Bill, for a cost comparison. After the target planet gets the message, they plot the coordinates, and sends the coordinates back, again via emergency messaging (another 324 C-Bills). Total price so far is 648 C-Bills, plus the crew and equipment needed to plot the jump.

Still, for a basic Union, burning 1.8 tons per day, and burning for 8 less days, is 14.4 tons of fuel. Fuel cost is ~500 C-Bills, at a good spaceport. You have just saved 7200 C-Bills in fuel costs, assuming only one ship is making the trip. Some of that will go to paying off the emergency messages, and maintaining the Jump computers on the planets participating.

Hmm, a HPG comm system costs 1 billion C-Bills(Aerotech 2 revised book), and you will need 2 of them for proper communications. However, the price does drop to 1 C-Bill per message. Assuming you want the transmitter paid off using cost savings in messages, you would need to send 6.2 million messages for buying the HPG to be cheaper than just using emergency messages (2 billion / (324-1) = ~6.2 million). As the messages are paired, that does drop to 3.1 million. Assuming you want the generator paid off within 1 century, that is 30,000 messages per year, or 82 messages per day. That is the best case scenario.

For planetary assaults, I'd see the Jumpships popping to the target planet's Zenith/Nadir jump point, and then doing nothing for 7 days (or however long the recharge period is). They then jump to the LaGrange point (7 days in-system would be enough to calculate the necessary pirate point), and attack from there.

Isn't there a rule that made intrasystem jumps extremely difficult?

I didn't see one in AT2R, the closest I got was jump difficulty based on destination and target location (Zenith/Nadir, pirate points, or transient points, pg 88). Zenith/Nadir to pirate is +4, the reverse is +2. If you go with pirate to pirate, you are looking at +6 to the target number (you have to roll over the number on a 2D6). The base number is 12, and there does not seem to be any benefit for using extra time and/or resources (like an extra 7 days spent directly observing the system, or a local supercomputer whose only job is to plot jump coordinates 24/7).

[PainRack]

Hmm, a HPG comm system costs 1 billion C-Bills(Aerotech 2 revised book), and you will need 2 of them for proper communications. However, the price does drop to 1 C-Bill per message. Assuming you want the transmitter paid off using cost savings in messages, you would need to send 6.2 million messages for buying the HPG to be cheaper than just using emergency messages (2 billion / (324-1) = ~6.2 million). As the messages are paired, that does drop to 3.1 million. Assuming you want the generator paid off within 1 century, that is 30,000 messages per year, or 82 messages per day. That is the best case scenario.

two pages of text or a small image such as a photograph. I don't think that's sufficient information for a military report just as to digress.

My personal opinion is that the entire system has been balanced for Comstar economic profit.

Sending vast number of messages and duplication of the message allows them to duplicate bills and the transmission schedule is skewed the way it is so that Comstar does not need to pay more money to build infrastructure, as well as technical services for transmission.

[Chris OFarrell]

You know I've always wondered what would happen if someone happened to beam down the complete plans, scientific theory and some working prototypes of subspace communications systems into some of the Inner Sphere's research institutions like NAIS....say about 3025....

Just watching Comstars first circut explode would be funnier to watch then a Clan invasion on movie Starship Troopers training planets...

[HRogge]

You know I've always wondered what would happen if someone happened to beam down the complete plans, scientific theory and some working prototypes of subspace communications systems into some of the Inner Sphere's research institutions like NAIS....say about 3025.

Something like this happened in battletech, the NAIS got it's hand on the blueprints of a hyperpulse generator... and they started to build their own FTL communication network.

A few years later the Dracs stole one of their machines and began to build some themselves.

They are not as fast as the Comstar stuff and has less bandwith, but during the Clan invasion the FTL comm monopoly was (unknown to Comstar) already broken.

[Chris OFarrell]

You know I've always wondered what would happen if someone happened to beam down the complete plans, scientific theory and some working prototypes of subspace communications systems into some of the Inner Sphere's research institutions like NAIS....say about 3025.

Something like this happened in battletech, the NAIS got it's hand on the blueprints of a hyperpulse generator... and they started to build their own FTL communication network.

A few years later the Dracs stole one of their machines and began to build some themselves.

They are not as fast as the Comstar stuff and has less bandwith, but during the Clan invasion the FTL comm monopoly was (unknown to Comstar) already broken.

The black box tech? It's not really a replacement for the HPG technology IIRC, just a way of pirating the comstar network and sending messages without them knowing IIRC.

Because the technology sure as hell didn't do anything to the status quo outside of when the Priums tried to interdict the IS under Operation Scorpion, it let high level Government functions continue to SOME degree.

Enough at least to give orders for troops to take the Comstar HPG stations and place them 'under new management' until Focht killed the Priums and defused the situatiuon.

[HRogge]

[The black box tech? It's not really a replacement for the HPG technology IIRC, just a way of pirating the comstar network and sending messages without them knowing IIRC.

Pirating the comstar network ?

Because the technology sure as hell didn't do anything to the status quo outside of when the Priums tried to interdict the IS under Operation Scorpion, it let high level Government functions continue to SOME degree.

Enough at least to give orders for troops to take the Comstar HPG stations and place them 'under new management' until Focht killed the Priums and defused the situatiuon.

The problem with the blackboxes were that they were based on a crude replication of systems centuries older than the Comstar HPGs... but they were a first step.

In addition to this they gave the IS enough knowledge to operate a comstar HPG station when they captured them in operation "Scorpion".

[Coalition]

two pages of text or a small image such as a photograph. I don't think that's sufficient information for a military report just as to digress.

My personal opinion is that the entire system has been balanced for Comstar economic profit.

Sending vast number of messages and duplication of the message allows them to duplicate bills and the transmission schedule is skewed the way it is so that Comstar does not need to pay more money to build infrastructure, as well as technical services for transmission.

The report can be compressed, or you can send multiple pages. Emergencies are the 3d6*3d6*normal price, normal reports are 1 C-Bill per 2 pages as above.

As to Comstar profit, if each HPG cost 1 billion, then there has to be alot of extra messages for Comstar to put an HPG on-site. Also, Comstar didn't buy the HPGs originally, they just maintain the existing ones bought earlier.

Still, the profits from the Inner Sphere should allow them to add an HPG or two every year.

As for pirating the Comstar network, they would use one of their own HPGs to send a message similar to the real message coming in, Comstar would retransmit it, and the House HPG would receive and translate it. he relaying Comstar station would assume it was an emergency message, and relay immediately, assuming the source people had already charged the fee.

Still, this is assuming that the jump coordinates can be transmitted easily. AT2R had rules for entering the jump coordinates into the Jump computer taking several minutes.

[PainRack]

The report can be compressed, or you can send multiple pages. Emergencies are the 3d6*3d6*normal price, normal reports are 1 C-Bill per 2 pages as above.

The information and paperwork neccesary is enormous. Especially when you factor in its 1 C-bill per tranmission per station. For each station that resends the message, its an additional cost.

As to Comstar profit, if each HPG cost 1 billion, then there has to be alot of extra messages for Comstar to put an HPG on-site. Also, Comstar didn't buy the HPGs originally, they just maintain the existing ones bought earlier.

Still, the profits from the Inner Sphere should allow them to add an HPG or two every year.

As for pirating the Comstar network, they would use one of their own HPGs to send a message similar to the real message coming in, Comstar would retransmit it, and the House HPG would receive and translate it. he relaying Comstar station would assume it was an emergency message, and relay immediately, assuming the source people had already charged the fee.

Still, this is assuming that the jump coordinates can be transmitted easily. AT2R had rules for entering the jump coordinates into the Jump computer taking several minutes.

[PainRack]

oops. accidently hit a pop up that submitted the post.

As to Comstar profit, if each HPG cost 1 billion, then there has to be alot of extra messages for Comstar to put an HPG on-site. Also, Comstar didn't buy the HPGs originally, they just maintain the existing ones bought earlier.

Comstar Sourcebook tells us that they had to rebuild a lot of HPGs that were damaged/destroyed in the Amaris Uprising. Similarly, Blake chose to rebuild multiple HPGs so that they would be much better protected against capture.

Still, the profits from the Inner Sphere should allow them to add an HPG or two every year.

I don't know............... The cost of running the HPG network, especially when you consider personnel cost as well as supplies should be enormous.

As for pirating the Comstar network, they would use one of their own HPGs to send a message similar to the real message coming in, Comstar would retransmit it, and the House HPG would receive and translate it. he relaying Comstar station would assume it was an emergency message, and relay immediately, assuming the source people had already charged the fee.

When was this done?

The problem with the blackboxes were that they were based on a crude replication of systems centuries older than the Comstar HPGs... but they were a first step.

In addition to this they gave the IS enough knowledge to operate a comstar HPG station when they captured them in operation "Scorpion".

They didn't have enough knowledge to operate the HPG stations. The histories are vague but it appears that most Houses simply just forced the adepts to operate it as normal.

Which brings us to another point. Collaboration with the houses must had been major, otherwise, there could have been no communications at all using the existing network. The system functioned such that you effectively need a significant number of stations to be functioning for it to work. Take out a couple of key hubs and entire sectors of space would be incommunicado, something that the Dark Age replicates.

[HRogge]

They didn't have enough knowledge to operate the HPG stations. The histories are vague but it appears that most Houses simply just forced the adepts to operate it as normal.

Maybe, maybe not...

Which brings us to another point. Collaboration with the houses must had been major, otherwise, there could have been no communications at all using the existing network. The system functioned such that you effectively need a significant number of stations to be functioning for it to work. Take out a couple of key hubs and entire sectors of space would be incommunicado, something that the Dark Age replicates.

The collaboration between the houses were VERY active at this time...

Hanse Davion got his warning about operation Scorpion from the Draconis Combine...

Oh, and he estimated they would capture at least 80% of the HPG stations... that should be enough for an efficient network.

[PainRack]

Maybe, maybe not...

Its not a maybe. Comstar Sourcebook explictly states that even though the HPGs are in House possession, their operation is by Comstar personnel. This remains a source of friction as now their equipment upkeep is paid for by the various governments(explictly mentioned for St Ives Compact) while profits are pocketed by Comstar.

Its possible that some semblance of local networks, as in the A station and the subsidaries it control may be kept operational by automatics, but for the much larger network, i doubt it.

The collaboration between the houses were VERY active at this time...

I was referring to Comstar personnel with the local governments.

[HRogge]

Its not a maybe. Comstar Sourcebook explictly states that even though the HPGs are in House possession, their operation is by Comstar personnel. This remains a source of friction as now their equipment upkeep is paid for by the various governments(explictly mentioned for St Ives Compact) while profits are pocketed by Comstar.

Sorry, you are mixing up two things.

The situation the Comstar sourcebook describes is the situation AFTER Focht reformed comstar.

But when he talked with the Prima about the failure of operation Scorpion (shortly before he shot her) there was dialoge like this(I only own the German version of the book):

Prima: "Impossible. They are nonbelievers. They cannot know the secrets of the HPGs".
Focht: "Science is no goddess. Technology doesn't need believe or rituals, Prima. They have learned how to operate them."

So Focht thinks the houses of the IS are capable of operating a HPG. They cannot build one themselves because they don't have the necessary infrastructure, but the know the basic principles, enough to operate them.

Don't forget that Wolf Dragoners also had the knowledge how to operate (and maybe built) HPGs... maybe they shared it with the IS ?

[AniThyng]

On the whole lightbulb from a reactor thing, I feel compelled to point out that it is probably not feasible to run any sort of electrical generation power plant at a load so far below its typical operating range, all that electrical energy has to go somewhere, be it dumped into resistors or giant flywheels or whatever.

I don't know how a btech fusion device would work, but how would you make a 500 MW rated steam turbine just output 1 kW...?

I'm pretty sure that load balancing in modern power grids is not a trivial matter.

[Batman]

On the whole lightbulb from a reactor thing, I feel compelled to point out that it is probably not feasible to run any sort of electrical generation power plant at a load so far below its typical operating range, all that electrical energy has to go somewhere, be it dumped into resistors or giant flywheels or whatever.

It may not be ecomomical but it's entirely possible-just feed it less fuel. There's no reason to generate all that electricity in the first place.
And besides the Btech fusion plant is doing it already by powering the onboard systems. They'd actually have to increase the power output to load the jump drive.

[Chris OFarrell]

Hell for that matter if they needed some kind of low energy reactor for a jump sail, just hook up a Mech reactor or something....

[PainRack]

It may not be ecomomical but it's entirely possible-just feed it less fuel. There's no reason to generate all that electricity in the first place.
And besides the Btech fusion plant is doing it already by powering the onboard systems. They'd actually have to increase the power output to load the jump drive.

Actually it doesn't. Ship power is run off the bateries, which is occasionally charged from the powerlant.

[Chris OFarrell]

It may not be ecomomical but it's entirely possible-just feed it less fuel. There's no reason to generate all that electricity in the first place.
And besides the Btech fusion plant is doing it already by powering the onboard systems. They'd actually have to increase the power output to load the jump drive.

Actually it doesn't. Ship power is run off the bateries, which is occasionally charged from the powerlant.

Wha?

So what the heck is the difference between Lithium battery arrays and these systems?!

I mean seriously, this is how I THOUGHT the whole thing worked based off all the Btech sources I've read. Now I'll go through it, stop me if I'm horribly wrong.

Ships have fusion reactors that provide main power for the ships electrical systems inlcuding life support, grav decks, sensors and so on.

Jump drives require a charge to be built up over time, generaly by solar collection for truely tiny amoutns of total energy, held in SOME kind of capacitor system, then the power is all dumped at once into the jump drive during a jump at once with a very high wattage, tearing a hole in subspace and letting the ship 'fold' instantly upto 30 light years away.

Jumpships CAN use their fusion powerplants to charge the jump drives in replacement of the jump sail but it offers no saving in time.

Yet ships CAN also charge a bank of lithium fusion batteries which by all accounts are also just storage cells for energy, which can then be used to 'double jump' in a matter of seconds or minuites between two Star systems.

So what the fuck is going on?

The energy from the solar sail is clearly not going directly INTO the Jump drive mechanisim, that only happens at the actual jump time (and there are quite a few novel quotes supporting this with statements of 'Charge the drives' or thereabouts just as a jump is taking place).

The lithium battery storage can only be used after a jump is complete to instantly recharge the drives, its energy does NOT get put into the system until the first jump is complete, it's just a giant battery for all intents and purposes.

SO clearly the jump drives CAN handle a f*#(ing huge wattage of raw power, if they absorb all the energy collected by the solar sail or fusion reactor all at once when the jump takes place. It's not like you still have to wait a week to charge off lithium batteries afterall...and a lithium charge has no effect on a single jump.


So in short, how can Btech writers claim the jump drives are in critical danger of being damaged if directly charged off fusion drives...when their whole design is taking a massive capicator charge all at once to blow a hole in spacetime? And we no its not the jump drives themselves being charged over a long time, lithium systems prove that. The only way for it to be TRUE would be if the lithium system was in fact a complelte second jump drive system....which makes even less sense.

So....eh?