Imperial (SW) attempt on the EoT (40k)

[NecronLord]

While this would probably whittle through the smaller ships, the Death Star doesn't need to fight them; it just appears over and planet and vaporizes it. Unless this fleet is truly ridiculous in scope, it will simply be skeet-shooting for the defensive guns. And this is ignoring, of course, the Eclipses.

I suspect if he rammed such a fleet at an Eclipse it would die before being able to destroy them all. 40K ships have been known to contain neutronium ramming prows after all, so significant mass would be helpful.

The greater speed of the SW ship would probably let it dodge for quite a while.

The DS2 is however, a major problem unless they can create matter inside its shields, or fling a few planets at it simultaneously.

[SirNitram]

Indeed, there isn't any proof it couldn't simply have been vaped from orbit, the Daemon is actually a rather big suprise.

on topic, I'm sure the Empire forces would be perfectly capable, given gellar field technology, of flying around and vaping planets on the less ummm, involved planets of the EOT.

However, once they enter areas that are entirely, or the majority of, are subsumed into the warp, They get turned inside out. or as Necron lord mentions, eaten by a planet. Maybe a corrupted Maiden world the one at the centre of the Maelstrom

Mandibles to a gunfight, my friend. Mandibles to a gunfight.

I would imagine that actually navigating through the Eye would be a real bitch as well, even if they had Imperium equivalent psychic technology, its hardly a static environment, and I doubt given the distortion of reality that any reliable hyperspace lanes exist, or can even be mapped out.

Imperial ships are quite capable of traversing areas without mapped hyperlanes or even any maps at all; I beleive the quote from the Thrawn trilogy of such a case puts them at over forty or maybe fifty lightyears per hour. I can look it up if you'd like.

I think the end result of this little foray is an EOT with some destroyed planets that probably get reconsituted depending on their location, and possibly some debris.

I'm sorry, I will continue to disagree. I've simply seen nothing that could even hamper the Death Star and it's Eclipse escorts; both designed to take on entire fleets of SW vessels, and the best the EOT can throw at them is melee opponents.

[white_rabbit]

Mandibles to a gunfight, my friend. Mandibles to a gunfight.

, biiiig mandibles..

Imperial ships are quite capable of traversing areas without mapped hyperlanes or even any maps at all; I beleive the quote from the Thrawn trilogy of such a case puts them at over forty or maybe fifty lightyears per hour. I can look it up if you'd like

I'm aware they don't need maps, my point is that they might have problems flying at hyperspace through an area which a sufficiently powerful daemon has decided that things can't go faster than light. in EOT a lower level Lord of Change does the opposite, "welds the warp and realspace" so his conjured ramships can...y'know..ram stuff at FTL velocities nothing like fucking Physics up the ass.

I'm sorry, I will continue to disagree. I've simply seen nothing that could even hamper the Death Star and it's Eclipse escorts; both designed to take on entire fleets of SW vessels, and the best the EOT can throw at them is melee opponents

The best the EOT could throw at them I suspect is simply willing them out of existence. Or Celestialesque planet tossing. all the gellar field technology in the world isn't going to help when a Daemon lord nukes them as they enter an area submersed in the warp. They can shape star constellations into pretty roses man.

Note that warp effects can sneak through Gellar fields, which are no guarentee against destruction anyway. fleets get destroyed regardless, or temporally dislocated, or just frozen in the warp until everyones dead. Mortarion is infected through his vessels shields, people go crazy and so forth all the time. Daemons slip through and manifest etc.

The denizens of the Eye don't have to really do much pro-actively, if it comes to it, Daemon lords can retain their slaves/worshippers and resources by teleporting them away when the fleet/fleet elements turn up, then reconsituting the planet, or building a new one when their old pad gets nuked.

*shrug* Theres no real limit on their batteries in the Eye, outside it, it could take great effort for a Daemon lord to turn into a warp storm and turn a fleet inside out regardless of their warp shielding ( Pawns of Chaos, Daemon lord destroys Imperium fleet by turning into a warpstorm) Inside the eye...

[SirNitram]

While this would probably whittle through the smaller ships, the Death Star doesn't need to fight them; it just appears over and planet and vaporizes it. Unless this fleet is truly ridiculous in scope, it will simply be skeet-shooting for the defensive guns. And this is ignoring, of course, the Eclipses.

I suspect if he rammed such a fleet at an Eclipse it would die before being able to destroy them all. 40K ships have been known to contain neutronium ramming prows after all, so significant mass would be helpful.

The greater speed of the SW ship would probably let it dodge for quite a while.

The DS2 is however, a major problem unless they can create matter inside its shields, or fling a few planets at it simultaneously.

Assuming they can't do the former.. No, the latter will not save them. I present the math that makes this a walk.

This is all for the DS1. The DS2 is known to have a superior reactor.

Known output of a full power SL shot: 1e38J.

Most ultra-conservative recharge time: 1 day.

Seconds in a day: 60 * 60 * 24 = 86,400.

Maximum output for a rapid fire(1 per second) barrage from the DS1: e34J range. Sufficient to planetbust.

Never bring teeth to a gunfight.

[Prozac the Robert]

The DS1 is probably not that big of a threat. Inside the weirder bits of the IOT it can't really launch any fighters, and it's shields aren't very good at stopping fighter sized things. Fighters with vortex bombs or other odd weaponry, and boardings by chaos space marines in boarding pods might stop it. If any chaos psykers get on board, it's probably screwed.

[The Grim Squeaker]

The DS1 is probably not that big of a threat. Inside the weirder bits of the IOT it can’t really launch any fighters, and it’s shields aren’t very good at stopping fighter sized things. Fighters with vortex bombs or other odd weaponry, and boardings by chaos space marines in boarding pods might stop it. If any chaos psykers get on board, it’s probably screwed.

Do they even have so many marines that they can board and conquer two moon sized fully garrisoned space stations?
(I meant in practical, not total terms).
How many minds can a alpha+ chaos psyker dominate simultaneously?

[Lost Soal]

I'm sorry, I will continue to disagree. I've simply seen nothing that could even hamper the Death Star and it's Eclipse escorts; both designed to take on entire fleets of SW vessels, and the best the EOT can throw at them is melee opponents.

Within the inner reaches of the Eye, Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes are capable of changing the shape and position of planets and stars at will,

Ref: Eye of Terror Pg169

A planetary system loomed up. He slowed further and steered close to get a good look at it. The sun was huge, except it was not what he would normally think of as a sun. It was not spherical but a flat disc, in collour a brilliant shimmering green. There were at least twenty planets, each a different colour - mauve, russet, lemon yellow, magenta - but they were not arranged as planets usually are. Instead of being roughly in the same plane, their orbits criss-crossed at all angles, like the electrons of an atom, and sometimes more than one planet shared the same orbit....

Pg 170
Multiple multi-coloured suns fled past, some misshapen, some ring-shaped, some joined together in complicated patterns by filiments of light and fire, some surrounded by what looked like intricate decorations made of gold and silver and brass. There was no consistancy; no two were identical. It was a storm-enwrapped minor universe in which the normal laws of physics did not count. The will and imagination of Daemons counted for more.....

Pg 171
The Rose cluster was, as its name implied, a large cluster of stars. Typically they were globular and contained thousands, sometimes tens of thousands of stars. In that respect, the cluster was unremarkable.
Except that all the stars were an entrancing pink colour. And the entire cluster had the shape of a rose. It was all there, the curving petals, hundreds of lightyears across, picked out in sheets of stars and glowing gas - also pink - the petals foliated one within another, layered down to a softly blazing heart. Some mighty daemon with a sense of beauty had crafted this. Callidan powered the telescope, feeding its image to the viewscreen. One of the suns forming the cluster appeared before them. It too was in the shape of a rose, its radiant plasma, magically suspended to form identical layers of soft petals.
"Every single sun in there is the same," Kwyler told him. "And thats not all. Everyone of the planets in there is shaped like a rose too. Thousands upon thousands of them.

If the power used to create these events were directed towards the Imperials, I don't think its too much of a stretch to suggest the results would be rather unpleasent. Or to paraphrase Vader

"The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant, when compared to the power of the Warp"

[NecronLord]

Assuming they can't do the former.. No, the latter will not save them. I present the math that makes this a walk.

You fling them at it simultaneously so it can't traverse and shoot them fast enough. At realspace superluminal velocity if necessery (one of the more impressive things in the Eye).

EDIT: Not that this is a really serious suggestion.

[SirNitram]

I'm sorry, I will continue to disagree. I've simply seen nothing that could even hamper the Death Star and it's Eclipse escorts; both designed to take on entire fleets of SW vessels, and the best the EOT can throw at them is melee opponents.

Within the inner reaches of the Eye, Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes are capable of changing the shape and position of planets and stars at will,

That's nice. Have you considered working out what it takes to do this, or is this yet another 'Lookit, kewl!'

I'm sorry, this debate is quite ridiculous. Yes, the Daemons are powerful in there. However, this is just another of the 'LOOKIT! NO LIMITS ROXOR!' posts; these events are not unquantifiable, and it's pretty tiresome to wade through this stuff when I've done similar plenty of times(You think the Warp is screwy? Realmspace utterly rips it apart on this. A longboat has a planar gravity well. A VIKING LONGBOAT.).

I dealt with this: If they can rearrange planets, the assumed attack is lobbing them. The DS can shatter them at a ridiculous rate.

[SirNitram]

Assuming they can't do the former.. No, the latter will not save them. I present the math that makes this a walk.

You fling them at it simultaneously so it can't traverse and shoot them fast enough. At realspace superluminal velocity if necessery (one of the more impressive things in the Eye).

EDIT: Not that this is a really serious suggestion.

I imagined not.

Well, to the subject of other angles, it does have Eclipses flanking it. The other ships are, for the most part, cannon fodder.

So I propose they go stir up every Ork Klan and Necron Tomb they can find and lure as many as possible towards the EoT.

[Mopeyennuui]

While this would probably whittle through the smaller ships, the Death Star doesn’t need to fight them; it just appears over and planet and vaporizes it. Unless this fleet is truly ridiculous in scope, it will simply be skeet-shooting for the defensive guns. And this is ignoring, of course, the Eclipses.

Stop being a fool. You can't just say that firepower wins all. The example of the enegry eating deamon was a good one. As a example of the things you may find in the EOT. Not all deamons are enegry absorbing. Some grow to immense sizes. Some are warp enegry made form.

The lesson is this: The EoT is like a tear in space, spilling out a subdomain of normal space into our plane.

Second, the EoT is a area that has no physical laws as we know them. it is known that the laws of physics change at the will of the warp deties in the EoT. G-freaking-W written codex say that the EoT is a malestrom and has no hard laws. Stop logic wanking. 40k is fantasy as much as Scifi, this it gets a get out of hard rules card.

I'm sick of you whining about 'WAA! We can't beat something! Why can't we logicbash it to death!'[/i[

This was SUPPOSED to be a hard fight.

Lastly... HOW THE HELL DOES 'DIMENTIONAL PROPERTIES' TRANSLATE TO 'PROTECTION AGINST SOMETHING THE UNIVERSE IN QUESTION DOESNT EVEN KNOW ABOUT'?!?!?!

-Start rant-

This is why people call SW dead and hate the ICS. If Saxton had half a brain he wouldn't have put this number changin info in a frelling picture book. He'd write a REAL BOOK instead of the literaty equivlant of a carpetbagger. (In other words, you make a picture book because you dont' want to write lots of nice scruitizable text and are a lasy ass, I fail to understand how a PICTURE BOOK FOR KIDS get any respect. I must be fun getting what you want out of a kid book. As if any of this matters to nongeeks...............)

[SirNitram]

While this would probably whittle through the smaller ships, the Death Star doesn’t need to fight them; it just appears over and planet and vaporizes it. Unless this fleet is truly ridiculous in scope, it will simply be skeet-shooting for the defensive guns. And this is ignoring, of course, the Eclipses.

Stop being a fool. You can't just say that firepower wins all. The example of the enegry eating deamon was a good one. As a example of the things you may find in the EOT. Not all deamons are enegry absorbing. Some grow to immense sizes. Some are warp enegry made form.

And the energy eating demons have infinite absorption? Sorry, no-limits fallacy. Fuck off.

The lesson is this: The EoT is like a tear in space, spilling out a subdomain of normal space into our plane.

And this impresses the guy who can debate Planescape how?

Second, the EoT is a area that has no physical laws as we know them. it is known that the laws of physics change at the will of the warp deties in the EoT. G-freaking-W written codex say that the EoT is a malestrom and has no hard laws. Stop logic wanking. 40k is fantasy as much as Scifi, this it gets a get out of hard rules card.

'Logic wanking'. Sorry. I have no patience for people who don't want to logically debate. Here, I'll win the debate while using non-logical debating tactics:

SW is more popular than 40k. It wins.

That's a non-logical debate. You just butcher it and whine. Fuck off.

I'm sick of you whining about 'WAA! We can't beat something! Why can't we logicbash it to death!'

'logicbash'

What would you prefer, little fucker? Base it off fanbase? Personal opinion?

This was SUPPOSED to be a hard fight.

And it is. It requires the full might of a Death Star 2.

Lastly... HOW THE HELL DOES 'DIMENTIONAL PROPERTIES' TRANSLATE TO 'PROTECTION AGINST SOMETHING THE UNIVERSE IN QUESTION DOESNT EVEN KNOW ABOUT'?!?!?!

How does your masturbatory fantasies about no-limits fallacies being acceptable affect me at all.

-Start rant-

This is why people call SW dead and hate the ICS. If Saxton had half a brain he wouldn't have put this number changin info in a frelling picture book. He'd write a REAL BOOK instead of the literaty equivlant of a carpetbagger. (In other words, you make a picture book because you dont' want to write lots of nice scruitizable text and are a lasy ass, I fail to understand how a PICTURE BOOK FOR KIDS get any respect. I must be fun getting what you want out of a kid book. As if any of this matters to nongeeks...............)

Allow me to translate.

'SCREEEEEEEEEEECH! I CAN'T LET MY FAVORITE WANKING MATERIAL LOSE! I MUST TROLL! MUST TROLL!'

Allow me to clear something up for you, child. A quote from our favorite planet-eater:

After seemingly endless debate with comic and anime fan-whores, it has become all too clear that they categorically reject the use of science and scientific methods for analysis, therefore those discussions become virtually unresolvable through objective, rational means and clearly do not belong in the OSF forum.

Relevent bolded.

If you are in OSF, you will debate through the use of science and the scientific method. Do not troll just because you don't like the results.

[Mopeyennuui]

I'm sorry, I will continue to disagree. I've simply seen nothing that could even hamper the Death Star and it's Eclipse escorts; both designed to take on entire fleets of SW vessels, and the best the EOT can throw at them is melee opponents.

Within the inner reaches of the Eye, Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes are capable of changing the shape and position of planets and stars at will,

That's nice. Have you considered working out what it takes to do this, or is this yet another 'Lookit, kewl!'

I'm sorry, this debate is quite ridiculous. Yes, the Daemons are powerful in there. However, this is just another of the 'LOOKIT! NO LIMITS ROXOR!' posts; these events are not unquantifiable, and it's pretty tiresome to wade through this stuff when I've done similar plenty of times(You think the Warp is screwy? Realmspace utterly rips it apart on this. A longboat has a planar gravity well. A VIKING LONGBOAT.).

I dealt with this: If they can rearrange planets, the assumed attack is lobbing them. The DS can shatter them at a ridiculous rate.

As far as I understand (in the EoT):

Lesser Deamon: Gary or the lady doctor from early TOS to Prophet level or Charlie X.
Greater deamon: Organian to Q.
Warp deity: Higher level Q.

Get over it.

And sorry for the above rant. It' sbeen percolating for some years now.

[SirNitram]

As far as I understand (in the EoT):

Lesser Deamon: Gary or the lady doctor from early TOS to Prophet level or Charlie X.
Greater deamon: Organian to Q.
Warp deity: Higher level Q.

Get over it.

And sorry for the above rant. It' sbeen percolating for some years now.

'Get over it!' from a Q-wanker. Sure, kiddie. We debate logically here at SDNet. That includes skewering you whiny babies and your no-limits fallacies and crying fits, and laughing at you as your little lips quiver and your fists ball up because we have all the evidence, numbers, and logic on our side.

Warp Deities are only as powerful as Q? Good. Makes it even easier. You don't even need a direct hit from the DS2 to kill them...(The former is obviously not literal; I know Zerg Goddess is a clueless git, and it would be difficult, if not impossible, to slay the actual Chaos Gods in this raid. It would, however, make them alot less powerful from their lack of minions).

[Mopeyennuui]

While this would probably whittle through the smaller ships, the Death Star doesn’t need to fight them; it just appears over and planet and vaporizes it. Unless this fleet is truly ridiculous in scope, it will simply be skeet-shooting for the defensive guns. And this is ignoring, of course, the Eclipses.

Stop being a fool. You can't just say that firepower wins all. The example of the enegry eating deamon was a good one. As a example of the things you may find in the EOT. Not all deamons are enegry absorbing. Some grow to immense sizes. Some are warp enegry made form.

And the energy eating demons have infinite absorption? Sorry, no-limits fallacy. Fuck off.

The lesson is this: The EoT is like a tear in space, spilling out a subdomain of normal space into our plane.

And this impresses the guy who can debate Planescape how?

Second, the EoT is a area that has no physical laws as we know them. it is known that the laws of physics change at the will of the warp deties in the EoT. G-freaking-W written codex say that the EoT is a malestrom and has no hard laws. 40k is fantasy as much as Scifi, this it gets a get out of hard rules card.

'Logic wanking'. Sorry. I have no patience for people who don't want to logically debate. Here, I'll win the debate while using non-logical debating tactics:

SW is more popular than 40k. It wins.

That's a non-logical debate. You just butcher it and whine. Fuck off.

Look cumstain. Reality is fluid. You cannot argue firepower in areas that don't respond to reality. Absorb power into warp storms and reduce SW firepower to half if otherwise. Or less. It's like Trapdoor: Scifi magic.

[quote[

I'm sick of you whining about 'WAA! We can't beat something! Why can't we logicbash it to death!'

'logicbash'

What would you prefer, little fucker? Base it off fanbase? Personal opinion?[/quote]

No. You cannot expect hard physics in a manafestation of millions of years of negatitve emotions.

Lastly... HOW THE HELL DOES 'DIMENTIONAL PROPERTIES' TRANSLATE TO 'PROTECTION AGINST SOMETHING THE UNIVERSE IN QUESTION DOESNT EVEN KNOW ABOUT'?!?!?!

How does your masturbatory fantasies about no-limits fallacies being acceptable affect me at all.[/quote]

Fuck off. It's not 'no limits'. It IS 'high level limits that are due to be different deamon to deamon. Not to mention the Chaos gods themselves..... who like I said are Q-like in the EoT.

-Start rant-

|

It was a rant. Second, I did not intent that to be part of the debate: I warned you. *See above*. I however said I have little respect for a fatass who writes kid books and changed paradigm with a sentance or five.

[Black Admiral]

Oh for fuck's sake

Zerg Goddess, quit arguing pro-40K, you're making us look stupid. Even in areas of the Eye where physics is FUBARed (such as the removal of the lightspeed limit), weapons work normally, so either daemons can't or don't bother to alter things like that.

[SirNitram]

That's a non-logical debate. You just butcher it and whine. Fuck off.

Look cumstain. Reality is fluid. You cannot argue firepower in areas that don't respond to reality. Absorb power into warp storms and reduce SW firepower to half if otherwise. Or less. It's like Trapdoor: Scifi magic.

Gosh! Would the moderator of the Fantasy forum know about magic? Yes, yes he would, troll! Since the ships designed for the Milky Way's universe work just fine inside, it's laws aren't even that far away from ours! But hey, you're too dumb to figure that one out.

Even the most high-fantastical realms, where no ship designed to work in 40k's realspace would work, can be empirically derived, you worthless troll.

It is board policy to debate logically. If you dislike this policy, get the fuck out.

I'm sick of you whining about 'WAA! We can't beat something! Why can't we logicbash it to death!'

'logicbash'

What would you prefer, little fucker? Base it off fanbase? Personal opinion?

No. You cannot expect hard physics in a manafestation of millions of years of negatitve emotions.

Yes I can. I may have to take into account new rules, but I don't have to throw out empirical data collection, logic, or science. And indeed, it would be a violation of this board's policies to do so.

Lastly... HOW THE HELL DOES 'DIMENTIONAL PROPERTIES' TRANSLATE TO 'PROTECTION AGINST SOMETHING THE UNIVERSE IN QUESTION DOESNT EVEN KNOW ABOUT'?!?!?!

How does your masturbatory fantasies about no-limits fallacies being acceptable affect me at all.

Fuck off. It's not 'no limits'. It IS 'high level limits that are due to be different deamon to deamon. Not to mention the Chaos gods themselves..... who like I said are Q-like in the EoT.

Yep, Q-like works. Powerful enough to impress primitives, but nothing compared to the real thing. Even killable by a human-wielded weapon, so a DS2 would have no trouble.

I accept 'high level'. I incorporated that into my debate. Of course, you didn't like the outcome, so now you troll... How predictable.

-Start rant-

|

It was a rant. Second, I did not intent that to be part of the debate: I warned you. *See above*. I however said I have little respect for a fatass who writes kid books and changed paradigm with a sentance or five.

Here's my rant: I love flaming ignorant, whiny fucking trolls who think they can masturbate in the forums I roam.

Oh, not much of a rant.

In this board, kiddo, we debate logically. In Fantasy and OSF. You can cry and scream if you want. But if you will not debate such, you will leave. We can assist you in leaving if you wish, in accordance with the posted rules of this site. I have no patience for those who don't even put up the pretense.

EDIT: Fixed tags.

[SirNitram]

Oh for fuck's sake

Zerg Goddess, quit arguing pro-40K, you're making us look stupid. Even in areas of the Eye where physics is FUBARed (such as the removal of the lightspeed limit), weapons work normally, so either daemons can't or don't bother to alter things like that.

Don't worry. I understand Zerg Goddess is just a worthless troll screeching their head off.

But I would point out that the continued operation of Imperium vessels limits how much alteration the laws of physics can really have.

[Mopeyennuui]

As far as I understand (in the EoT):

Lesser Deamon: Gary or the lady doctor from early TOS to Prophet level or Charlie X.
Greater deamon: Organian to Q.
Warp deity: High*ist* level Q.

Get over it.

And sorry for the above rant. It's been percolating for some years now.

'Get over it!' from a Q-wanker. Sure, kiddie. We debate logically here at SDNet. That includes skewering you whiny babies and your no-limits fallacies

Where did *I* claim Q was anything more than the manafestation of 'Suffently advanced magic in indistenguishable from magic'? I NEVER said anything about Q on this board.

No limits? I TOLD you I wasn't debating REAL no limits. You may want to look again. Take any wellbalanced team, they compliment eachother. The trick for them is to match a challange to the person with a skill or power that compl;ments the problem in their favor.

The trick for the SW forces is the opposite.

Just remember Chaos in its own freaking backyard have powers that border on high GT level absorbtion.

and crying fits, and laughing at you as your little lips quiver and your fists ball up because we have all the evidence, numbers, and logic on our side.

Warp Deities are only as powerful as Q? Good. Makes it even easier. You don't even need a direct hit from the DS2 to kill them...[/quote]

When the hell we figue out what could kill Q without using alternate dimentions? (Don't say star explosions. That might have been the LEAST powerful sideeffect of Q weapons.)

[Black Admiral]

Don't worry. I understand Zerg Goddess is just a worthless troll screeching their head off.

Obviously.

But I would point out that the continued operation of Imperium vessels limits how much alteration the laws of physics can really have.

The nature of it's kind of complicated, but in areas where the warp+realspace meld, there are such things as an Imperium ship managing to get up to 100 c using its' realspace drives, which the characters acknowledge shouldn't be at all possible. However, that really seems to be removal of certain things that the daemon involved just doesn't like.

[SirNitram]

As far as I understand (in the EoT):

Lesser Deamon: Gary or the lady doctor from early TOS to Prophet level or Charlie X.
Greater deamon: Organian to Q.
Warp deity: High*ist* level Q.

Get over it.

And sorry for the above rant. It's been percolating for some years now.

'Get over it!' from a Q-wanker. Sure, kiddie. We debate logically here at SDNet. That includes skewering you whiny babies and your no-limits fallacies

Where did *I* claim Q was anything more than the manafestation of 'Suffently advanced magic in indistenguishable from magic'? I NEVER said anything about Q on this board.

I never said you did, little liar. Continue screeching, though.

No limits? I TOLD you I wasn't debating REAL no limits. You may want to look again. Take any wellbalanced team, they compliment eachother. The trick for them is to match a challange to the person with a skill or power that compl;ments the problem in their favor.

That's nice. Go do that and fuck off. Mmmkay? Mmmkay.

The trick for the SW forces is the opposite.

Just remember Chaos in its own freaking backyard have powers that border on high GT level absorbtion.

That's nice. Imperial Star Destroyers have outputs that border on multi-petaton. And that's the escorts for the DS2 and Eclipses.

and crying fits, and laughing at you as your little lips quiver and your fists ball up because we have all the evidence, numbers, and logic on our side.

Warp Deities are only as powerful as Q? Good. Makes it even easier. You don't even need a direct hit from the DS2 to kill them...

When the hell we figue out what could kill Q without using alternate dimentions? (Don't say star explosions. That might have been the LEAST powerful sideeffect of Q weapons.)[/quote]

But there's no evidence it's anything but the most powerful. Gosh, it must be hard being so ignorant to how logic works. Do you often think toast is magical?

Q was intimidated by Guinan, reacted defensively to a phaser, and got wounded by Sisko. Ergo, you don't need multi-gigaton outputs to crush him.

Oh! There I go following policy again!

[SirNitram]

But I would point out that the continued operation of Imperium vessels limits how much alteration the laws of physics can really have.

The nature of it's kind of complicated, but in areas where the warp+realspace meld, there are such things as an Imperium ship managing to get up to 100 c using its' realspace drives, which the characters acknowledge shouldn't be at all possible. However, that really seems to be removal of certain things that the daemon involved just doesn't like.

I would argue it's not the removal of anything.. Changing c has vast consequences that aren't observed. Like the ship didn't explode.

I would say more that, much like how(In Fantasy, recently) it was hypothesized that the Weave(Source of magic in Forgotten Realms) enables 'cheats' under certain logically derived conditions. In essense, new rules, not altered or removed ones. Like:

In Warp regions, one can convert ambient Warp energy to matter via E=MC^2.

In Warp regions, a ship may be 'enchanted' to operate inertiallessly.

Etc.

[Ford Prefect]

So, Nitram has proven that the "Reality" of the Eye is not going to help the forces of Chaos in anyway. I accept this. It makes sense. It fits with stuff I already knew.

So, how about we start deciding what the Planetkiller and the Despoiler's Blackstone Fortresses could do, being as they are among the most powerful weapons that the forces of Chaos possess.

[SirNitram]

So, Nitram has proven that the "Reality" of the Eye is not going to help the forces of Chaos in anyway. I accept this. It makes sense. It fits with stuff I already knew.

This is not what I endeavoured to put forth. The nature of the Eye will vastly assist the forces of Chaos. But it will not bridge the gap that is a battlestation capable of vaporizing one planet a second, all day.

Have I mentioned how fucking scary that is?

So, how about we start deciding what the Planetkiller and the Despoiler's Blackstone Fortresses could do, being as they are among the most powerful weapons that the forces of Chaos possess.

I know the Planetkiller needs sustained bombardment to break up a planet, so it'll be little but fodder to the OP group. The Fortresses I don't know anything about. BFG was decidedly recalcitrant on data on them.

[Dark Hellion]

Ummm.... Nitram, when could the DSII vaporize a planet every second? I don't remember that at all.