Hopefully I am not revisiting old territory here, but I'll try anyway...
Who do you thing would win in an all out brawl:
The Starcraft universe, or the Total Annihilation universe?
Please keep you comments limited "in-game cannon". No fanfics/etc, just what is presented in the actual games (plus any expansions/patches/etc).
My oppinion: TA would "TA" SC.
Comments, flames?
*SIGH* Gotta do it.. TA vs SC (the games) Oppinions?
Moderator: NecronLord
Well lets see TA can build much nicer and better bases then SC but SC still has space forces and could simply play the waiting game and pound on TA held worlds till they give up
On the ground?
TA all the way
On the ground?
TA all the way
"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
Hm. Depends on the environment.
It seems like - from the Brood Wars introduction and all Star Craft play - that Star Craft ships/fighters work in-atmosphere when supporting ground actions. This would allow the ARM or CORE to support their ground forces with fighters -- and considering the speed of the heavier craft, Rapiers or Brawlers would likely tear them apart. Consider, further, the speed of Vampires or, er... Hawks, I think the ARM level 2 air superiority fighters were? In any case, lighter SC fighters would be out-maneuvered and eliminated easily enough.
As for ground-on-ground actions, Star Craft units have -nowhere- near the range or power of Total Annihilation units. Hell, I remember playing games where full batteries of Berthas or Intimidators would be supporting ground engagements. These things could fire across, what was it.. fifteen full screen-lengths, depending on resolution?
And let's not forget the sustained nuclear bombardments! Wooo! Or the anti-missile defenses to intercept nuclear attacks, for that matter.
Simply put, Total Annihilation has low-level units on par with and high-level units far exceeding Star Craft - which was why I also preferred the game; high-level combat was tremendously well-balanced, considering the wide variety.
It seems like - from the Brood Wars introduction and all Star Craft play - that Star Craft ships/fighters work in-atmosphere when supporting ground actions. This would allow the ARM or CORE to support their ground forces with fighters -- and considering the speed of the heavier craft, Rapiers or Brawlers would likely tear them apart. Consider, further, the speed of Vampires or, er... Hawks, I think the ARM level 2 air superiority fighters were? In any case, lighter SC fighters would be out-maneuvered and eliminated easily enough.
As for ground-on-ground actions, Star Craft units have -nowhere- near the range or power of Total Annihilation units. Hell, I remember playing games where full batteries of Berthas or Intimidators would be supporting ground engagements. These things could fire across, what was it.. fifteen full screen-lengths, depending on resolution?
And let's not forget the sustained nuclear bombardments! Wooo! Or the anti-missile defenses to intercept nuclear attacks, for that matter.
Simply put, Total Annihilation has low-level units on par with and high-level units far exceeding Star Craft - which was why I also preferred the game; high-level combat was tremendously well-balanced, considering the wide variety.
No response yet, it seems.
Well, to continue; Bean noted that SC forces could remain in orbit and effectively lay seige to TA forces. Simply put, that's not the case.
If one controls the whole of a planet and has no established need for spaceways for trade or supply, then the forces couldn't be cut off -- simply because one can't cut a supply line that doesn't exist. After all, with a planets resources, one could easily provision and supply one's military, no?
After all, we on Earth haven't had to call in space support yet, right?
Pardon the round-about logic, there; hope y'get my point.
Well, to continue; Bean noted that SC forces could remain in orbit and effectively lay seige to TA forces. Simply put, that's not the case.
If one controls the whole of a planet and has no established need for spaceways for trade or supply, then the forces couldn't be cut off -- simply because one can't cut a supply line that doesn't exist. After all, with a planets resources, one could easily provision and supply one's military, no?
After all, we on Earth haven't had to call in space support yet, right?
Pardon the round-about logic, there; hope y'get my point.
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Moonstone Spider
- Youngling
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The Protoss, at least, have enough firepower to BDZ a planet from Orbit as described in both the manual and in-game. IIRC they did something like melt the crust to a depth of 6 meters or something like that. That bespeaks some rather serious firepower, although TA does look tougher at a glance you simply can't BDZ planets with Popguns, as pointed out on this very site it requires at least Giggaton weapons to perform a rapid BDZ. Terrans also BDZed a planet with just 10 nuclear weapons. Therefore Starcraft actually probably has higher firepower than TA despite it's appearance to the contrary (I think it's that whole curvy edges and LEDs vs. Switches thing again, Starcraft units look industrial and blocky).
In the worst situation possible they can still BDZ a planet until it looks like Io, not just lay siege to it.
In the worst situation possible they can still BDZ a planet until it looks like Io, not just lay siege to it.
..erm..
Moonstone? The LED/curves vs Industrial argument would go in TA's favor. Ever played it? Everything's as blocky and industrial as you can get, generally.
Hm. As for the BDZ, eh.. it still doesn't say whether it was done from orbit or in-atmosphere. It was by the Protoss fleet, yes, but everything we've seen seems to note that SC space vessels are atmosphere-capable and tend to engage under orbital ranges.
A BDZ -could- be accomplished from within the atmosphere, right?
Moonstone? The LED/curves vs Industrial argument would go in TA's favor. Ever played it? Everything's as blocky and industrial as you can get, generally.
Hm. As for the BDZ, eh.. it still doesn't say whether it was done from orbit or in-atmosphere. It was by the Protoss fleet, yes, but everything we've seen seems to note that SC space vessels are atmosphere-capable and tend to engage under orbital ranges.
A BDZ -could- be accomplished from within the atmosphere, right?
Protoss BDZ
Actually, there was no mention of a BDZ operation in Starcraft. After the Mar Saara invasion, the Protoss fleet entered orbit and unleashed a massive orbital bombardment (it's stated in the blooper after the first few missions)
However, it "only" had the effect of exterminating all life on the surface - and since TA units are all mechanical, some damage mechanisms that can prove fatal to the Zerg, will not even touch them (like radiation)
It is not necessary to melt the enitre crust in order to exterminate all life upon the planet.
However, TA does have military starships. In the beggining of every campaign, the remaining commander, be it Arm or Core, is supposedly reppeling massive attacks from the other side. As some of you can remember, when an Arm team penetrated Core Prime defenses, it established a galactic gate on the surface, implying that they had to get there using more conventional means (same goes for the other side, with Core ladning on Empyrrean during the Arm campaign) The capabilities of those starships, however, remain unknown, as we never see them in-game.
Also take note that TA has BIG trouble detecting cloaked units. Protoss Arbiters and human Wraiths would have a field day there, with no pesky detectors to worry about
However, it "only" had the effect of exterminating all life on the surface - and since TA units are all mechanical, some damage mechanisms that can prove fatal to the Zerg, will not even touch them (like radiation)
It is not necessary to melt the enitre crust in order to exterminate all life upon the planet.
However, TA does have military starships. In the beggining of every campaign, the remaining commander, be it Arm or Core, is supposedly reppeling massive attacks from the other side. As some of you can remember, when an Arm team penetrated Core Prime defenses, it established a galactic gate on the surface, implying that they had to get there using more conventional means (same goes for the other side, with Core ladning on Empyrrean during the Arm campaign) The capabilities of those starships, however, remain unknown, as we never see them in-game.
Also take note that TA has BIG trouble detecting cloaked units. Protoss Arbiters and human Wraiths would have a field day there, with no pesky detectors to worry about
Hm. Good point, PeZook; forgot about the TA starships.
As for Cloak, uh -- sorta-kinda. Visual cloaking is a pain (only revealed by proximity to a unit), but radar and other detection systems still locate the cloaked unit in TA (well, show it on the radar display). Include the radar targeting array from Core Contingency and those Wraiths and Arbiters are dead meat. Consider, also, that Terran Command Center 'scans' pick up cloaked units, but aren't capable of sustained use. If you think of TA radar systems as being low-power but steady-state Terran scans, then one can rationalize TA being able to detect cloaked units.
As an aside, TA air defense will -fry- SC aircraft once they're detected - Wraiths and Arbiters included. A -lot- of the static defenses can fire on aircraft, but usually don't because of range or speed issues (imagine a Punisher plasma battery trying to traverse to track a Hawk, for instance). With the SC Floating Ship approach to aircraft, one could argue that aircraft'd be easy fodder for weapons we don't normally see in such a role. Well, only for the big stuff, anyways.
Hm. Additionally - TA forces are probably capable of building deep-crust shelters, given that their Moho mines are named after, eh.. the mohorovic discontinuity, if I recall - which is, presumably, what they tap. The mohorovic discontinuity, by the way, is the crust-mantle boundary.
Hm. Also - was there ever a display of high-level Protoss energy weapons? In the end SC movie, the Protoss Carrier is obviously generating a lot of power - but we don't know if that was an overload or a weapon system. If they still use bombardment with, well.. bombs or the like, I suppose, the TA nuclear missile defense systems might suppress it. Maybe.
Really, we won't know until we see SC and TA forces fighting, eh?
Still, being the Total Annihilation fan I am, I'm strongly predisposed toward it.
As for Cloak, uh -- sorta-kinda. Visual cloaking is a pain (only revealed by proximity to a unit), but radar and other detection systems still locate the cloaked unit in TA (well, show it on the radar display). Include the radar targeting array from Core Contingency and those Wraiths and Arbiters are dead meat. Consider, also, that Terran Command Center 'scans' pick up cloaked units, but aren't capable of sustained use. If you think of TA radar systems as being low-power but steady-state Terran scans, then one can rationalize TA being able to detect cloaked units.
As an aside, TA air defense will -fry- SC aircraft once they're detected - Wraiths and Arbiters included. A -lot- of the static defenses can fire on aircraft, but usually don't because of range or speed issues (imagine a Punisher plasma battery trying to traverse to track a Hawk, for instance). With the SC Floating Ship approach to aircraft, one could argue that aircraft'd be easy fodder for weapons we don't normally see in such a role. Well, only for the big stuff, anyways.
Hm. Additionally - TA forces are probably capable of building deep-crust shelters, given that their Moho mines are named after, eh.. the mohorovic discontinuity, if I recall - which is, presumably, what they tap. The mohorovic discontinuity, by the way, is the crust-mantle boundary.
Hm. Also - was there ever a display of high-level Protoss energy weapons? In the end SC movie, the Protoss Carrier is obviously generating a lot of power - but we don't know if that was an overload or a weapon system. If they still use bombardment with, well.. bombs or the like, I suppose, the TA nuclear missile defense systems might suppress it. Maybe.
Really, we won't know until we see SC and TA forces fighting, eh?
Still, being the Total Annihilation fan I am, I'm strongly predisposed toward it.
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Joe Richter
- Redshirt
- Posts: 49
- Joined: 2002-07-13 11:15am
I have to agree with that. Same goes for dogfighting - TA aircraft would have no problem blasting fighters that, when attacking AAA, just hover in front of the gun openingsAs an aside, TA air defense will -fry- SC aircraft once they're detected
Hm. Also - was there ever a display of high-level Protoss energy weapons? In the end SC movie, the Protoss Carrier is obviously generating a lot of power - but we don't know if that was an overload or a weapon system.
As a matter of fact, the protoss destroy a terran scavenging vessel in the intro with...*drum rolls* a high-powered energy weapon
As for Tassadar's carrier in the ending, it wasn't a weapon nor an overload - Tassadar said something about "Chanelling enough of the Dark Templar energy through the hull" (referring to his psionic powers, i think) - so it was acutally a psionic blast if anything else.
The TA radar is capable of detecting individual blasts (as can be seen on the mini map during firefights), but it isn't known if it would be able to pick up free-fall ordnance at a sufficient height to intercept bombs with the anti-missile system. It would be tricky at best, and the system could be overwhelmed by simply dropping hundreds of bombs at a time - some would get through. Or taking out the anti-missile defences with energy weapons, provided they have sufficient range to do that from orbit.
Agreed on the scale issue brought up by Joe. TA units ARE huge. And even "infantry" (well, that what stands for infantry in the TA world) units are heavily armored, so i doubt that marine bullets could get through - but TA weapons ranges are somewhat small, even for the heaviest guns - the german Dora heavy artillery piece from WW II could deliver her shells much further than those few kilometres seen in TA.
Alright, alright. I'll admit that it's been entirely too long since I've played SC or TA. Gah. 
By the way; in regards to weapons detection by TA radars. If you notice that weapons-fire blips move, you'll note that they aren't tracking the explosions, but the ordnance itself.
As for dropping hundreds of bombs, remember how much it costs to build one nuclear device in Starcraft, relative to the amount on harvests. Consider, by comparison, the relative ease of building an anti-missile battery and stocking it with missiles, once your base is properly established - well, if you're a Porcupine-style player, at least.
And, well - one could always construct multiple batteries with overlapping fields of fire. I used to do that a lot, when I was playing long porcupine games against friends.
One must admit that Total Annihilation has a -lot- more development on the super-weapons side -- which is amusing, considering how well-balanced it managed to be.
Oh, additionally - as for ranges, one must consider TA ranges relative to SC ranges. If we consider Terran Marine ranges comparable to ARM Peewee ranges, then that'd put the Terran Siege Tank at a great disadvantage by comparison with, well.. any number of the heavier TA units. Remember the mobile artillery, anyone? Or the range of Berthas and Intimidators?
By the way; in regards to weapons detection by TA radars. If you notice that weapons-fire blips move, you'll note that they aren't tracking the explosions, but the ordnance itself.
As for dropping hundreds of bombs, remember how much it costs to build one nuclear device in Starcraft, relative to the amount on harvests. Consider, by comparison, the relative ease of building an anti-missile battery and stocking it with missiles, once your base is properly established - well, if you're a Porcupine-style player, at least.
And, well - one could always construct multiple batteries with overlapping fields of fire. I used to do that a lot, when I was playing long porcupine games against friends.
One must admit that Total Annihilation has a -lot- more development on the super-weapons side -- which is amusing, considering how well-balanced it managed to be.
Oh, additionally - as for ranges, one must consider TA ranges relative to SC ranges. If we consider Terran Marine ranges comparable to ARM Peewee ranges, then that'd put the Terran Siege Tank at a great disadvantage by comparison with, well.. any number of the heavier TA units. Remember the mobile artillery, anyone? Or the range of Berthas and Intimidators?
Same here - but I always seem to have no problem remembering gaming trivia, as opposed to undoubtedly more important knowledge (like mathematical formulas for example)Alright, alright. I'll admit that it's been entirely too long since I've played SC or TA. Gah.
Well, true, they are quite expensive. And they need Ghost targetting lasers to zero in on the target. AND they have weak warheads. Point taken. TA nukes are far more destructive.As for dropping hundreds of bombs, remember how much it costs to build one nuclear device in Starcraft, relative to the amount on harvests. Consider, by comparison, the relative ease of building an anti-missile battery and stocking it with missiles, once your base is properly established
However, space warfare opens a whole new bunch of possibilities...actually, as far as we know, the Protoss might as well be using orbitally-delivered rocks for their bombardment
Ok, silly me. Bombs are still hard to track, but since the TA radar can track every round fired in battle, even over terrain obstacles (I've always wondered how does it do that)
, then I must agree it wouldn't be a problem.I'm an Eagle, actually- well, if you're a Porcupine-style player, at least.
True, I forgot we're discussing SC vs. TA hereOh, additionally - as for ranges, one must consider TA ranges relative to SC ranges. If we consider Terran Marine ranges comparable to ARM Peewee ranges, then that'd put the Terran Siege Tank at a great disadvantage by comparison with, well.. any number of the heavier TA units. Remember the mobile artillery, anyone? Or the range of Berthas and Intimidators?
I must admit TA has much more COMPLETE armies. While SC races all have some basic infantry units, a basic flyer unit and then a whole bunch of race-specific units, both the Arm and the Core have all the elements of a proper planetary army (infantry, tanks, air force, navy). Their artillery would massacre HtH fighting protoss, for example, but they lack special forces (unless you consider the enormous arm Shooter a special forces unit - it seems bigger than the commander
)Overall, you pretty far got me convinced. Not that I ever doubted the destruction TA units could wreck
I always liked TA more than Stacraft, though. Brood Wars - now that's a different thing. Plays the same in multiplayer, but it's SP aspect is a heck a lot better than the original.
BTW, does anyone know where I can get Core Contingency with the option of shipping to Poland?
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Kosh_The_Vorlon
- Youngling
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- Joined: 2002-07-08 09:40pm
- Location: Indiana
::winces::
What did the Starcraft universe do to you? The CORE and ARM are considered pretty high-end (as in a step or two below the Culture) over at Spacebattles.com, and Starcraft is quite low-end (like, around Battletech)..
Oh, and as a response to the whole "Protoss will BDZ the planet" arguement: TA artillery can apparently hit ships in orbit. Can you imagine the effect of massed Intimidator or Big Bertha fire hitting a Protoss Carrier?
What did the Starcraft universe do to you? The CORE and ARM are considered pretty high-end (as in a step or two below the Culture) over at Spacebattles.com, and Starcraft is quite low-end (like, around Battletech)..
Oh, and as a response to the whole "Protoss will BDZ the planet" arguement: TA artillery can apparently hit ships in orbit. Can you imagine the effect of massed Intimidator or Big Bertha fire hitting a Protoss Carrier?
There is no God.
But it does not matter.
Man is enough.
Edna St. Vincent Milay, Conversation at Midnight
There will never be a resolution in the evolution vs creationism debate because neither side can conclusively prove that they are right. The creationists can't prove that they're right becuase they're not, and the evolutionists can't prove that they're right because the creationists are too damn stupid to listen.
HemlockGrey
But it does not matter.
Man is enough.
Edna St. Vincent Milay, Conversation at Midnight
There will never be a resolution in the evolution vs creationism debate because neither side can conclusively prove that they are right. The creationists can't prove that they're right becuase they're not, and the evolutionists can't prove that they're right because the creationists are too damn stupid to listen.
HemlockGrey
Cloaded Units/ OBZ
Cool, I'm glad to see some discussion!
Anyway, I has some thoughts about the discussion with cloaked units. Specifically, I think cloacked units would be fairly useless against TA armies for anything other than small skirmishes. I say this because once the cloaked units started fireing, the purpose of the cloak is defeated. If I had someone using cloaked unit agaimst me, I'd have at least a rough idea of where they were, in which case I would deploy my area effect weapons, such as berthas, nukes, and emp/neutron missles. If I didn't have that capability yet, i could easily build a few walking bombs, load them in a transport, and suicide the bomb/transport. Sure I might take out a good portion of my attacked force along with the attackers, but who cares about a few clones or robots? I guess I'm just ruthless that way. =) I always hated that I couldn't use this tactic in SC. It seems quite lame that you cannot direct units to fire at the groud *near* the cloaked units to get splash damage. Of course, I think flack cannons would be very useful for cloaked air units, expecially the slow air units depicted in SC.
Now as far as OBZ, I am not sure about this, but it seems likely that the TA universe has space capability, since they do proliferate throughout an entire galaxy... And I can't imagine that their space fleets would not be heavily armed, since there is a war going on =) Also, if the OBZ is missle/bomb based, I thinks it reasonable to assume that the anti-missle capabilities of the ARM/CORE are sufficient to stop that kind of attack. Energy weapons would be a different story. Plus, ARM/CORE are capable of sustaining a base under water, which could make anything other than a surface melting/boiling OBZ innefective.
Anyway, I has some thoughts about the discussion with cloaked units. Specifically, I think cloacked units would be fairly useless against TA armies for anything other than small skirmishes. I say this because once the cloaked units started fireing, the purpose of the cloak is defeated. If I had someone using cloaked unit agaimst me, I'd have at least a rough idea of where they were, in which case I would deploy my area effect weapons, such as berthas, nukes, and emp/neutron missles. If I didn't have that capability yet, i could easily build a few walking bombs, load them in a transport, and suicide the bomb/transport. Sure I might take out a good portion of my attacked force along with the attackers, but who cares about a few clones or robots? I guess I'm just ruthless that way. =) I always hated that I couldn't use this tactic in SC. It seems quite lame that you cannot direct units to fire at the groud *near* the cloaked units to get splash damage. Of course, I think flack cannons would be very useful for cloaked air units, expecially the slow air units depicted in SC.
Now as far as OBZ, I am not sure about this, but it seems likely that the TA universe has space capability, since they do proliferate throughout an entire galaxy... And I can't imagine that their space fleets would not be heavily armed, since there is a war going on =) Also, if the OBZ is missle/bomb based, I thinks it reasonable to assume that the anti-missle capabilities of the ARM/CORE are sufficient to stop that kind of attack. Energy weapons would be a different story. Plus, ARM/CORE are capable of sustaining a base under water, which could make anything other than a surface melting/boiling OBZ innefective.
Follow up to last message
Wow, a quick review of that last message would have been useful to get rid of those pesky spelling mistakes and typos. Sorry folks!
Hrm. Core Contingency's Radar Targetting Array and some Advanced Radar stations would be enough to gut a cloaked force from SC, I'd say - but point taken on the splash damage.
How would Zerglings react to encountering Dragon's Teeth, by the way? And Flashes, for that matter.
As for space-flight capability in TA, I always thought that the technology the forces used had been devolving due to loss of infrastructure -- hence, loss of spaceflight but not necessarily loss of jumpgates and the like. I've been proven wrong, though, so I'm happy to go with the present idea.
Hrm. Kosh - I think being able to hit ships in orbit would require that the heavy plasma cannons are able to elevate their cannons to a higher angle than one normally sees. Perhaps, though, Core Intimidators and Buzzsaws would be able to? Buzzsaws especially - just fire the cannons earlier in the rotation and, well.. gah. Imagine what would happen to a Protoss Carrier if a Buzzsaw was pounding on it at full speed.
It's gruesome.
Anyways - as for TA Special Forces. I always thought the deal with Special Forces in TA was that the individual unit wasn't specialized, but that it was a specially-organized force. For example, a Spec Ops unit would include jammers, radars and perhaps organic transport and repair units -- whereas a normal attack will be a charge of armor or aircraft.
Speaking of aircraft... ugh. Eagles. A good Eagle player can manage a good routine as an Octopus, too - which can be a pain.
I remember playing a game against an Octopus once, when I was going heavily with Porcupine strategies: most battles resolved with his charge being beaten back by my wall. At the very end, though, he initiated a sustained nuclear barrage of one compass-point of my base's defenses, managing to fit one through the ABM defenses. This was followed by a fifty+ Core assault tank rush, which managed to rupture my defenses. Still, there was too much wreckage from destroyed laser turrets and dragons' teeth for him to exploit it -- that and plasma batteries were eating him away as he tried to pick his way through the wreckage.
It was ugly.
How would Zerglings react to encountering Dragon's Teeth, by the way? And Flashes, for that matter.
As for space-flight capability in TA, I always thought that the technology the forces used had been devolving due to loss of infrastructure -- hence, loss of spaceflight but not necessarily loss of jumpgates and the like. I've been proven wrong, though, so I'm happy to go with the present idea.
Hrm. Kosh - I think being able to hit ships in orbit would require that the heavy plasma cannons are able to elevate their cannons to a higher angle than one normally sees. Perhaps, though, Core Intimidators and Buzzsaws would be able to? Buzzsaws especially - just fire the cannons earlier in the rotation and, well.. gah. Imagine what would happen to a Protoss Carrier if a Buzzsaw was pounding on it at full speed.
It's gruesome.
Anyways - as for TA Special Forces. I always thought the deal with Special Forces in TA was that the individual unit wasn't specialized, but that it was a specially-organized force. For example, a Spec Ops unit would include jammers, radars and perhaps organic transport and repair units -- whereas a normal attack will be a charge of armor or aircraft.
Speaking of aircraft... ugh. Eagles. A good Eagle player can manage a good routine as an Octopus, too - which can be a pain.
I remember playing a game against an Octopus once, when I was going heavily with Porcupine strategies: most battles resolved with his charge being beaten back by my wall. At the very end, though, he initiated a sustained nuclear barrage of one compass-point of my base's defenses, managing to fit one through the ABM defenses. This was followed by a fifty+ Core assault tank rush, which managed to rupture my defenses. Still, there was too much wreckage from destroyed laser turrets and dragons' teeth for him to exploit it -- that and plasma batteries were eating him away as he tried to pick his way through the wreckage.
It was ugly.
Berthas and Intimidators
I am afraid that none of these cannons would not be able to even put a projectile into orbit, much less even hit a target there.
Elevating the barrels to a significant angle is not a necessity, as long as the gun can put enough energy into the shot for the projectile to exceed gravitational acceleration - for a long amount of time, with no internal proplusion - and fly out of the atmosphere. BUT:
1) The energy requirement for the shell to sustain the necessary acceleration would be TREMENDOUS. As I said before, the german Dora gun had greater range than berthas or intimidators, and it was not able to get a projectile even NEAR the orbit. Even today's rocket-assisted artillery rounds only add a few kilometres to the range. There is a limit on how much propellant can you fit into a gun designed for shelling ground targets.
2) In order to deliver damage, the shot would not only need to acquire orbital velocity, but also hit the target. And there's a problem with it - in order to insert a free-flight projectile into the same orbital plane, using a mininal amount of energy, the target's path would have to intersect the location of the battery, which is stationary. Then, the precisision of the shot would have to be very tight (take note that the gun projectile has NO proplusion except for the initial cannon blast) - if you get it wrong by, say, 1 degree of angle, at and orbit 250 kilometres above the ground (a VERY low orbit for earth-like planets) then you get a 4.3 kilometre error. You would miss an ISD
Next, the amount of time needed to reach orbit would give the target all the forewarning it needs, and to make the shot miss, it only need to fire it's engines once, to distort the orbit and move out of the shell's path.
So no, the big guns are no orbital defence systems. It would be simply unnecessary to use such an exotic method if you have missiles - a more elegant solution, with the ability to actually TRACK the target.
And take note. The ship can simply take a high, say - geosynchronous orbit, where you would have absolutely no hope of getting him using any non-propelled methods - like cannon shells. And I dare not think about the precision it would take to hit a target hovering at 1,500 thousand kilometres above the ground
Elevating the barrels to a significant angle is not a necessity, as long as the gun can put enough energy into the shot for the projectile to exceed gravitational acceleration - for a long amount of time, with no internal proplusion - and fly out of the atmosphere. BUT:
1) The energy requirement for the shell to sustain the necessary acceleration would be TREMENDOUS. As I said before, the german Dora gun had greater range than berthas or intimidators, and it was not able to get a projectile even NEAR the orbit. Even today's rocket-assisted artillery rounds only add a few kilometres to the range. There is a limit on how much propellant can you fit into a gun designed for shelling ground targets.
2) In order to deliver damage, the shot would not only need to acquire orbital velocity, but also hit the target. And there's a problem with it - in order to insert a free-flight projectile into the same orbital plane, using a mininal amount of energy, the target's path would have to intersect the location of the battery, which is stationary. Then, the precisision of the shot would have to be very tight (take note that the gun projectile has NO proplusion except for the initial cannon blast) - if you get it wrong by, say, 1 degree of angle, at and orbit 250 kilometres above the ground (a VERY low orbit for earth-like planets) then you get a 4.3 kilometre error. You would miss an ISD
Next, the amount of time needed to reach orbit would give the target all the forewarning it needs, and to make the shot miss, it only need to fire it's engines once, to distort the orbit and move out of the shell's path.
So no, the big guns are no orbital defence systems. It would be simply unnecessary to use such an exotic method if you have missiles - a more elegant solution, with the ability to actually TRACK the target.
And take note. The ship can simply take a high, say - geosynchronous orbit, where you would have absolutely no hope of getting him using any non-propelled methods - like cannon shells. And I dare not think about the precision it would take to hit a target hovering at 1,500 thousand kilometres above the ground
OBZ against TA
I would have to agree that guns would be useless against orbital targets, but I would think that any of the various missle weapons in TA.. namely EMP missles, neutron missles, and nukes are capable of attacking a unit in space. They do have tracking ability, and the nukes, at least, are basically ICBM's which ARE capable of shooting something in space.
Also, it is possible that some of the energy weapons would be useful, such as the Annihilator from ARM. It's hard to say though, since the scaling is strange, and the specs of such a weapon are unknown.
Also, it is possible that some of the energy weapons would be useful, such as the Annihilator from ARM. It's hard to say though, since the scaling is strange, and the specs of such a weapon are unknown.
Here is the URL to the webarchive version of it(the version on the caevdog site was pulled when it was bought out):
http://web.archive.org/web/199910080053 ... chive.html
These reports were written weekly , as the Galactic War Game evolved. Each week is a different sector, with 50-100 planets in a sector(each planet in a different system). So these are the creators version of how it happened. Several games have extracts from them included, and all the references to the various Commanders were actual people playing the game!
Or the transcripts of a few missions(shattered moon, planet cracked in 1/2, devices that can reformat the galaxy, the AK being able to take a few 'hailstones the size of boalders' etc)
http://web.archive.org/web/199910080053 ... chive.html
These reports were written weekly , as the Galactic War Game evolved. Each week is a different sector, with 50-100 planets in a sector(each planet in a different system). So these are the creators version of how it happened. Several games have extracts from them included, and all the references to the various Commanders were actual people playing the game!
The war for that sector ended with the destruction of the Arm homeworld of Ralova, where genetic experiments dedicated to the process of "building the better clone" were halted by a single blast from the Core's Orbital Weapon, located at the other end of the sector. The shockwave from the blast disrupted communications signals across the galaxy, slowing the Core's assault on Empyrrean.
[INITIATING SIGNAL FEED]
"I leave you with a thought: all of these creations you prepare to strike down as you have done so for millennia are extensions of myself. They are my arms, my legs, my eyes and ears. Everywhere they go, they take part of me with them. The Core Consciousness will never be understood by mortal minds, and cannot be destroyed by mortal hands. We live on. We live eternal. Step forward for the Patterning, Clones. Step forward or die."
[END SIGNAL FEED]
...
Will the clones ever be safe from patterned tyranny? (Arm Supreme Commander) Bossman seems to believe so.
"The Arm is spread farther than you can ever imagine. We've got hidey-holes stashed across the universe. You can't get into a war with an army of killing machines without preparing for the worst. I've got friends on the move out there, and they're counting on me to keep them alive. They're not about to be let down. Not in this lifetime; not in any to come."
Canon proof of spaceships in TA.The warm orange glow of the engine burst into new life as the drive kicked into high gear. Five enormous Arm Pioneer-class Colony ships broke formation and rocketed off in different directions. Family and friends were separated, hurriedly packed into the craft as the Core closed its steely fist around Empyrrean.
Yet more proof of space ships in TA.While merchants and visitors flee the sector in enormous deep-space craft
I can get more good TA quote from the Galactic War reports if you want(Worlds burned down to the bedrock from a week of fighting)Coming ever closer to the planet of Glynholm itself and the colony ship marooned there, the Core has implied strong tactics in choosing its fights, sacrificing one world for the gain of two. Other tactics have involved targeting incoming support vessels, monitoring their source and eliminating them from space before they can reach Arm troops.
Or the transcripts of a few missions(shattered moon, planet cracked in 1/2, devices that can reformat the galaxy, the AK being able to take a few 'hailstones the size of boalders' etc)
Ok, just a little FYI on the firepower of TA ground units. In a battle between two players that was watched by the Cave Dog news service, a battle exert was written up in which it stated something along the lines of. Player A pounded Player B into dust with Gigatons of damage. Now this was after a nuke launch, so the firepower of the nuke can be ignored.
The attack consisted of roughly 200 level 1 and level 2 units. Each unit got off an average of 20 shots before being killed (some more, some less).
Lets assume 2 Gigatons of damage were dealt by Player A. 2000000 KT divided by 200 units equals 10000 KT total firepower per unit, average. 10000 divided by 20 equals 500 KT average firepower PER SHOT.
So the average firepower of all these units is 500KT, and these are lower level units. The TA navies and Static defense weapons have massive firepower. Infact, the Big Bertha, Vulcan Bertha, Intimidator, Buzzsaw, and Annihilator are all capable of firing into Orbit. Furthermore the Vamp and Hawk stealth fighters are capable of carrying cruise missiles into high atmosphere that can then launch into space. The TA planetary forces have significant firepower and capabilities. Far more then any described by Starcraft.
Infact, Starcraft has very week forces. Their interplanetary craft are susceptible to ground fire. SC weaponry has very close range. Tactical nuclear weapons that utterly damage their space craft do not even hurt soldiers inside of an open vented bunker.
The attack consisted of roughly 200 level 1 and level 2 units. Each unit got off an average of 20 shots before being killed (some more, some less).
Lets assume 2 Gigatons of damage were dealt by Player A. 2000000 KT divided by 200 units equals 10000 KT total firepower per unit, average. 10000 divided by 20 equals 500 KT average firepower PER SHOT.
So the average firepower of all these units is 500KT, and these are lower level units. The TA navies and Static defense weapons have massive firepower. Infact, the Big Bertha, Vulcan Bertha, Intimidator, Buzzsaw, and Annihilator are all capable of firing into Orbit. Furthermore the Vamp and Hawk stealth fighters are capable of carrying cruise missiles into high atmosphere that can then launch into space. The TA planetary forces have significant firepower and capabilities. Far more then any described by Starcraft.
Infact, Starcraft has very week forces. Their interplanetary craft are susceptible to ground fire. SC weaponry has very close range. Tactical nuclear weapons that utterly damage their space craft do not even hurt soldiers inside of an open vented bunker.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
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SylasGaunt
- Sith Acolyte
- Posts: 5267
- Joined: 2002-09-04 09:39pm
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Manual quoting spree!
Anti-matter is used extensively for weapons and for energy storage where incredible energy density is require.
Commanders have anti-matter backpacks for power, blueprints and nano-lathes that allow them to, in a matter of hours, build up whole militar-industrial complexes, and special nano-technology born viruses which allow them to capture the intelligences running other war machines.
When the depth charge senses it is close enough it detonates an anti-matter warhead
Energy cannons are similar to standard cannons, except that they fire energy shells. Energy shells are very powerful lasers, which fire for several seconds and are ‘frozen’ in a tiny grid of space-time. This grid is then launched in a manner similar to a rail gun, (but using vacuum fluctuations rather than electro-magnetic fields).
When the energy shell reaches the target, the entire energy is given off at once in a near microscopic area. No armour can with stand the temperatures generated, and the spray of metal plasma destroys the interior of the target (the spray of plasma is forced inside the unit by the intense light pressure)
A guided missile has a sophisticated guidance package that allows it to steer itself into the target. They normally carry a small amount of anti-matter as a payload
Rockets: This is the generic name for a wide variety of weapon systems. Generally they have a pre-programmed flight path to prevent an unsophisticated guidance from being completely fooled by the ordinary ‘weak cloaking’ and electronic spoofing that all units possess. They carry a larger payload than a smarter missile and this payload is almost invariably a small amount of anti-matter
There's some more (like torpedoes having large AM warheads, and Starburst missiles that act as mortar replacements and have acceleration rated at 100gs) but I don't feel the urge to type all that up.[/quote]Plasma Cannon: This fires a spherical force field with a highly pressurised 10,000,000 plasma tightly contained with in it. When the force ball touches the target, the force field dissolves on the side touching the target and the plasma burns through the target’s armour. Simple heat and thermal shock may cause the kill. Heavy Armour is moderately vulnerable to high temperatures and multiple hits by plasma cannons can cause its breakdown.