Comic Book heroes and Villains: Who should live/die/etc.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2006-09-23 04:58pm

As the Title says which comic book heroes and Villains should stick around or die. Also which dead hero/villain should come back/never should have died. Give reasons on your feelings.

For me-
Should die:

Metallo: I always found him to be a one trick pony with him running on Kryptonite. When his power source was changed Superman just found him to be a petty annoyance.

The Joker: (I'm mixed on this one)

Lex Luthor: (mixed)

Should come back:
Maxima: there was very little character development for her to start. She was a princess looking for a mate and forcefully tried to get one. Besides, trying to assimilate to Earth culture and joining the JLA, little else was done with her. I see potential.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2006-09-23 05:15pm

to die: Wolverine. Just to prove they can.

to bring back: Ben Reilly, just to piss everyone off.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2006-09-23 06:14pm

Live?

I'd like to see Alex Wilder back, because he's a smart black kid with a 'fro. Don't have many of them in comics, 'bout as rare as an asian who doesn't know martial arts (Oh, Hi Nico!).

Another return I'd like would be Marvel's Godzilla. Because he could make the Marvel Universe collectively shit its pants as bad as (or worse) than the Hulk.

Also, Cassandra Cain as a hero again. An explanation for what's happened to her that MAKES SENSE is needed desperately.

I want Young Justice to be at least acknowledged in a positive way.

I'm sure I'll think of others later.

I don't think I know enough to pick out a "This character deserves to die"...

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2006-09-23 06:58pm

- The Spoiler/Robin IV (Stephanie Brown) was a fun character with a well-written and entertaining relationship with Robin III (Tim Drake). She was enthusiastic, snarky, and truly enjoyed being a heroine. Her death was at once tragic, disgusting, and unnecessary, and she's been largely ignored since then (note the pointed lack of a memorial to her in the Batcave, while Jason Todd's remains, the fact that he is no longer dead and is now a murderous psychopath notwithstanding).

- Alexandra DeWitt was never even given a decent chance, and yet still made a strong impression on many readers in the Kyle Rayner era of Green Lantern. She was strongly based in reality, had a believable personality, and there have been repeated indications that she was a major part of Kyle's life (such as the time his ring manifested a phantom of her in reaction to his unconscious desire to be with her even after her brutal murder). She is the namesake of the infamous "Women in Refrigerators" syndrome in comics.

- Jason Todd and Bucky should never have been resurrected. Their deaths were major events in the lives of the Batman and Captain America, and they were noteworthy as being among the few permanent deaths in comics. Their returns have not had any real merit and reek of shoddy storytelling and recycling of ideas. There was absolutely no reason that these characters should have returned, and the explanation of Jason Todd's return from death is plainly ludicrous, even in the context of the DC Universe.

- Wolverine should die painfully and stay dead because he is a stupid character.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2006-09-23 07:47pm

Crazedwraith wrote: to bring back: Ben Reilly, just to piss everyone off.

He was part of the New Warriors...

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-09-23 08:30pm

I can't say there are any I think should die/be resurrected, but there ARE some that should stay dead/never have died in the first place.
Should never have died:
Spoiler.
Steph may not have been major but she sure was interesting, and showed Tim actually had a life (and her dad being a lowest-key supervillain was a nice twist). I liked the way she interacted with Cassie, too.
Azrael (assuming he's still dead).
Jean Paul added an interesting twist to the Batverse, both by the intoduction of the order of St. Dumas and by being even more fanatical about the job than I am.
Should have stayed dead:
Jason Publius basically covered it. His death used to be a major event in my life to the point that it unhinged me far enough for Tim to decide I need a Robin again (though he didn't exactly figure on him being it) and with Jason's resurrection that is completely devalued. Why don't you give Babs back her legs while you're at it.
Hal Jordan Not only was the story around his death a major plot, he died a villain. Yes, he did his level best to make up for it during his time as The Spectre but if you're going to make a former superhero-turned-supervillain God's right-hand man, make it count.
And besides my favourite GL has always been Kyle.

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2006-09-23 08:46pm

I second the Joker, a mass murderer whose insanity has NO entertainment value, whose appearances only piss me off instead of making me go, "Wow, the Joker's here to fight Batman! This is gonna be so cool!"

I second Lex Luthor, a xenophobic bitch who whines, "Wah, wah, wah! Superman has superpowers and I don't! That's no fair!" and NEVER SHUTS UP about how superior his mind is.

I third Jason Todd. His appearance in 'Hush' is an entertaining surprise, but to say, "That really was Jason Todd, not Clayface impersonating Jason Todd to fuck with Batman's head!" is stupid.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-09-23 08:51pm

Die:

Wolverine: Long are dead the days when he was something. Literally he's a joke character that survives upon fanboys and Marvel's insistence that he sells books(for which sadly they are right).

Jason Todd had no great fanbase. In fact he was killed because said fanbase. Bringing him back under the pretenses of fans wanting him is worse then Wolverine. There you can see, with Jason Todd...it was akin to changing your pizza order and telling you you wanted it.

Oliver Queen, Hal Jordan were fucking replaced by the editors and only revived because hide behind dinosaurs screeched. Hal Jordan's sales were dismal and Queen's were worse. So where the fuck was this legion of fans when their books were out?

Bucky? Honestly an eh story for a reviving a character that was completely dismissable.

The Infinite Crisis gang.Utterly pointless for reviving them from the dead. And before someone goes...well they weren't. Fuck off, they were literally written out of existence. There was no peek back to what they are doing ala Adam Warlock and such. There was no reason for their continual tales, instead we get a half assed hack and his cock sucking editor claiming this will be the next greatest tale you've ever read.

Joker: ...since Killing Joke there has been no growth, no resolution, no anything except more people continuing to write "Joker does something bad, Batman stop.". DC comics has neutered the Joker so poorly that his appearence is on the level of Penguin. Riddler has shown more growth.

Lex Luthor: The flip side of the Joker. He's done ever concievable thing except rape Lois on national TV, while having Superman in a gimp suit...and he gets away every time. Even if this is some supposed parody of real life, it's failing.

Norman Osborn died, came back...was literally shoved into everyone's face as Spiderman's greatest evil, and is literally a pointless hack. Should've retconned his revival and claimed it was Gwen Stacy's third child from their tryst.

Should not have died:

Sue Dibny was a third ring character that actually was honestly interesting when used. Her death was an overblown tale of rape and heroes forming a secret pact because...let's just say Metzler enjoy the taste of Oliver Queen cum.

Spolier is a bit of an iffy. On one hand she was used as Tim Drake's fucktoy and chick problem. She was created to be a half assed vigilante who defeated Cluemaster. Some writers had a better handle on her which they at least tried to steer her away from being a mindless Robin clone #451672889, unfortunatly when running out of ideas she got the axe because it was the only way to destroy one character and make a completely lackluster story arc memorable by fans.

Ben Reilly. I despised and to this day hate the clone saga, with only JMS run starting to compare(sorry the Spier totem was eh, and his Gwen/Norman is essentially what I expect from idiots who write daytime soap opera). But Ben was actually being made into NOT PETER PARKER. But to make sure they cleaned house...instead of killing Norman they kill off the clone.

There are likely many many more, but right now I don't want to poke my head into the pile and remember the stupidity of editors and writers telling me I should enjoy shit pizza.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2006-09-23 09:24pm

Joker: ...since Killing Joke there has been no growth, no resolution, no anything except more people continuing to write "Joker does something bad, Batman stop.". DC comics has neutered the Joker so poorly that his appearence is on the level of Penguin. Riddler has shown more growth.

Lex Luthor: The flip side of the Joker. He's done ever concievable thing except rape Lois on national TV, while having Superman in a gimp suit...and he gets away every time. Even if this is some supposed parody of real life, it's failing.

Joker doesn't change because there's only so much you can do with a character while retaining its essential nature. There aren't even enough stories to keep Batman dynamic and growing; there certainly are not enough for the Joker.

If the right thing to do with Joker and Luthor was to kill them they'd have been dead for decades. These are characters for the ages, for new generations to rediscover, not for writers to kill off permanently for one-time dramatic endings. If permanent, dramatic deaths for the best, most useful characters in the superhero canon is what you want from superhero comics, perhaps you need to look elsewhere.

I can certainly understand the frustration with the fact that characters like Joker and Luthor can never die in comics, but the solution to that is to not read superhero comics, or to seek out alternate continuities (like movies, for example) where there can be dramatic, permanent endings.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2006-09-23 09:26pm

Publius wrote:- The Spoiler/Robin IV (Stephanie Brown) was a fun character with a well-written and entertaining relationship with Robin III (Tim Drake). She was enthusiastic, snarky, and truly enjoyed being a heroine. Her death was at once tragic, disgusting, and unnecessary, and she's been largely ignored since then (note the pointed lack of a memorial to her in the Batcave, while Jason Todd's remains, the fact that he is no longer dead and is now a murderous psychopath notwithstanding).

hey spoiler is now cassie's force ghost, (can't you just see her going back to being batgirl and there's stephi. yoda and been just hanging it invisible to her. Of course explaining the ligthsaber to bats is going to take a bit.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2006-09-23 09:40pm

Man, I can't believe I forgot about Spoiler!

Steph's death was an attrocity for all those involved...the fact that her death was brushed under the rug just made it worse.

Could we at least get a glass case for her costume?!

Though a non-villanious revival would be preferred.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-09-24 12:42am

Joe wrote:
Joker: ...since Killing Joke there has been no growth, no resolution, no anything except more people continuing to write "Joker does something bad, Batman stop.". DC comics has neutered the Joker so poorly that his appearence is on the level of Penguin. Riddler has shown more growth.

Lex Luthor: The flip side of the Joker. He's done ever concievable thing except rape Lois on national TV, while having Superman in a gimp suit...and he gets away every time. Even if this is some supposed parody of real life, it's failing.
Joker doesn't change because there's only so much you can do with a character while retaining its essential nature. There aren't even enough stories to keep Batman dynamic and growing; there certainly are not enough for the Joker.

If the right thing to do with Joker and Luthor was to kill them they'd have been dead for decades. These are characters for the ages, for new generations to rediscover, not for writers to kill off permanently for one-time dramatic endings. If permanent, dramatic deaths for the best, most useful characters in the superhero canon is what you want from superhero comics, perhaps you need to look elsewhere.

I can certainly understand the frustration with the fact that characters like Joker and Luthor can never die in comics, but the solution to that is to not read superhero comics, or to seek out alternate continuities (like movies, for example) where there can be dramatic, permanent endings.

I did stop. Infinite Crisis was the last straw for any real change in DC, and Civil War is seemingly good, but will truly depend on whether marvel actually does aftereffects.

The point is, in the past 15 years...they tried to do something with what they call continuity, they try to give change...and what has happened?

Joker is still what he was in the Golden Age EXCEPT now there is a memory of every fucking thing he did. Unlike both the Silver and Golden age, every cop, numbnut moron and half assed dumbass in Gotham acknolwedges the Joker's crimes and yet they keep trying to spin that "He's nuts".

They try to force logic that he's insane means he cannot be tried and is unaware of his actions while maintaining that these past 15 years are a more realistic bent of comic reality then what was protrayed in the last 35 before it.

So what do they do know? They trot out either of these villains, have them commit acts that have caused the execution of lesser morons and go "But it's the ____!!!". After a while you either ask yourself to shelve the fucker or get on with things because the people writing them currently are only tredding water that has been trodden upon for literally decades before they were born.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2006-09-24 01:42am

usually dark horse has good taste in who dies and who lives. mind you does X count for wolverine wank rant being already terminal (his regenerations like deadpool, it's a mutated cancer)

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2006-09-24 06:20pm

I'll say as of the End of Hunter/Prey, Doomsday should have stayed dead. Every other appearance that he has made has been pointless to and extremely annoying degree. (that and really lousy inconsistent writing)
Doomsday Wars was ok but a bit too much. The only reason DD should have come back would be if there is a point and a damn good reason to bring him back.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-09-24 06:30pm

There's a difference between maintaining a brand - let's be honest, Joker is a brand, or they'd replace him with 'the Nutso' or whatever - and maintaining it into absurdity. I'm not one to read comics, but just from the higher-profile stories I've read in TPBs, the continued existence of many DC villains is simply retarded. In storytelling you tell your story and then stop: if you keep reusing the same characters the same way, it's called 'shit'. It might be shit that sells, it might be industry-standard shit, but it's still shit.

Some people might think it's incredible and excellent that there are 50 year old comic characters that still have weekly/monthly books - I think it's appalling. No wonder it's stale, when it's so fucking old and fans are resistant to serious change or reimagining.

That said, I don't think the Joker and Lex should be killed. They're ridiculous laughingstocks that almost automatically doom a story simply by appearing, but I've seen the villians modern comic writers invent, and they're far, far worse. I think we're better off with 'stale, but a good idea' than 'unrepentant shallow wanked shit'.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2006-09-24 08:20pm

Stark wrote:There's a difference between maintaining a brand - let's be honest, Joker is a brand, or they'd replace him with 'the Nutso' or whatever - and maintaining it into absurdity.

Maintaining a brand is all comics are to Marvel and DC. They keep spitting them out so that they can maintain the copyright on the characters, who are highly recognisable, and then make actual money on license exploitation like movies and action figures.

Personally, I'd like to see every single monthly title not currently being written by the person or people who created the characters involved in it ended, and every comic writer forced to write their own worlds, characters, and stories from now on.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2006-09-24 08:23pm

Or "Only with Creator's concent" in the term of a full review of plotlines and the final product--does not work if the creator is dead.

I want to see Joss' run on "Runaways" con sarnit.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2006-09-24 08:56pm

My Idea was actually to force comic writers to come up with their own damn ideas, rather than hanging like crabs on the nutsacks of franchises.

Take Grant Morrison or Garth Ennis, for example. They've both spent a good deal of time sucking on the nuts of Marvel characters for sustenance, but their best work has been stuff they made up all by themselves. You couldn't have told Preacher with a franchise, Watchmen would never have been as good as it is if Alan had gotten to use the Charlton characters.

Of course, the reason this doesn't happen is because you "want to see what Joss Whedon does with Runaways". There's little reason to innovate, because you can sucker people in to a franchise with a name writer, and he doesn't even have to work very hard, because people will buy it anyway "to see if it gets better".

Joss Whedon has enough talent to make his own stuff up, he shouldn't be treading water with someone else's characters.

Anyway, fuck Runaways, Ex Machina and Y: The Last Man are better, because they're not hanging on to the nuts of the Marvel universe, they're real comics.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2006-09-24 09:02pm

Green Goblin/Norman Osborn: I'm not really too sure on this one, actually. Osborn's just plain been around too long on the one hand and really doesn't have much purpose anymore...but his connection with Peter's past (killing Gwen Stacy) makes for good dynamics.

I hope they do something really interesting between Osborn and Peter during Civil War, then have Osborn die in the end. Permanently.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2006-09-24 09:57pm

Personally, I'd like to see every single monthly title not currently being written by the person or people who created the characters involved in it ended, and every comic writer forced to write their own worlds, characters, and stories from now on.

I agree, and let's start with Alan Moore. Where the fuck does that untalented hack get off writing Mina Harker and Captain Nemo?

Joss Whedon has enough talent to make his own stuff up, he shouldn't be treading water with someone else's characters.

I'm as far from a Whedonite as you can get, but that's stupid; Joss Whedon should be doing whatever the fuck Joss Whedon wants to do, not complying with the wishes of armchair critics. If he wants to write Runaways and has an audience that wants to read it (and he does), then more power to him. Same for Grant Morrison, Ennis, or any of the myriad talented writers who pen company-owned comics and like doing it.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2006-09-24 10:05pm

Can someone explain to me how the heck Wolverine is going to be able to fight Sentry in Wolverine #47?

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image ... 335469.jpg

Doesn't Sentry have Superman-like powers? Can't he just throw Wolverine into the sun?

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2006-09-24 10:13pm

Hm...

I'll give a big "YES!" to Cassandra Cain and Spoiler. Two good female characters gone before their time (well, CC went evil for no reason, but same difference.)

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2006-09-24 10:18pm

Molyneux wrote:Hm...

I'll give a big "YES!" to Cassandra Cain and Spoiler. Two good female characters gone before their time (well, CC went evil for no reason, but same difference.)

my new theory is that since Cassie can now see Spoiler as a ghost figure when they finally make her a good person again, we can have Steph as the new "Secret"

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2006-09-25 12:10am

Joe wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see every single monthly title not currently being written by the person or people who created the characters involved in it ended, and every comic writer forced to write their own worlds, characters, and stories from now on.
I agree, and let's start with Alan Moore. Where the fuck does that untalented hack get off writing Mina Harker and Captain Nemo?

LOL!

As a writer (in training still), franchises exist, largely, to make money.

But then there's the entire fanfic phenomena to contend with, especially with the new generation of writers coming.

Big name writers tend to be able to write whatever characters they want. Take Brain K. Vaugn's mini of "The Escapist".

Okay, that has original characters too...

I'm as far from a Whedonite as you can get, but that's stupid; Joss Whedon should be doing whatever the fuck Joss Whedon wants to do, not complying with the wishes of armchair critics. If he wants to write Runaways and has an audience that wants to read it (and he does), then more power to him.

1) Joss Whedon is a vocal fan of the series since it's initial run (even writing a letter for Vol. 1 #18, the "last issue" before it was revived).
2) When Joss learned that Bran K. Vaughn was leaving Runaways after Vol. 2 #24, leaving it as his "gift to the Marvel Universe", Joss immideately went tot he editor and said "I want to write this book."

They of course, said, "Okay."

Honestly, in comics, I have no problem with writers passing off the reigns to other writers...

To an extent. Eventually, however, things just get tired and dull and the chances for suckage increases with each handing off.

Pinpointing when and how to prevent it is a tricky thing, but we can't broadbrush the entire "no longer creator-controlled" titles as horrible.

Though, many are.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2006-09-25 12:16am

The Yosemite Bear wrote:
Molyneux wrote:Hm...

I'll give a big "YES!" to Cassandra Cain and Spoiler. Two good female characters gone before their time (well, CC went evil for no reason, but same difference.)
my new theory is that since Cassie can now see Spoiler as a ghost figure when they finally make her a good person again, we can have Steph as the new "Secret"

I have several theories, but most don't include Spoiler.

Current crop include:

1) She's Deep Cover as she was during the Justice League Elite arc. Working to take down the League of Assasins AND Titan's East from the inside.
2) She's been injected with Deathstroke's "Happy Drug" and thus under his thrall. This would work as she's supposed to be a Mirror for Ravager in the upcoming Teen Titan's arc--and we can shoehorn in Ghost!Spoiler calling Cass back to the good guys side.
3) "That's not Cassandra" type theory: Robot, Alien shapeshifter, Clone, Alien Robot Clone. You name it.

Sometimes I'm glad Secret and Arrowette escaped the DC universe into obscurity. Alive and happy, no less.

Unless someone just killed them in Generic Universe-threatening crossover #452.