Infinate crisis

Hades · Post by **Hades** » 2005-04-02 11:03am

billed as the "sequel to crisis on infinate earths" which by itself excites me but on top of that the 80p ($1 to all you americans) comic "countdown to Infinate crisis" that came out this week... now im really in anticipation.

So what are peoples views on this challenge that DC have set themselves and what will "infinate crisis" actually be about? any thoughts?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2005-04-02 12:50pm

I don't even red DCU, but I'm gonna buy Countdown just because an 80-page book for only a buck must be bought on general principle. Unfortunately, my comic book store sold out long before I even got there, so I don't have anything to say about it yet.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-04-02 04:07pm

Read it, laughed my ass off how bad they want to become Marvel.

"The Mutan...uh Metas are the menace...as the guardians of humanity...we must contain and defeat them. And oh yeah, Bats has developed a weapon for us!!!!"

Grasscutter · Post by **Grasscutter** » 2005-04-02 04:57pm

Hate it, hate it, hate it. The way the other heroes react to Blue Beetle is totally unrealistic.

Hated Identity Crisis too. Pointless deaths, and there's no way the killer should've known Robin and Superman's secret identities.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-04-02 05:01pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Read it, laughed my ass off how bad they want to become Marvel.

"The Mutan...uh Metas are the menace...as the guardians of humanity...we must contain and defeat them. And oh yeah, Bats has developed a weapon for us!!!!"

Please tell me you're kidding. That's just too pathetic for words.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2005-04-02 06:19pm

Grasscutter wrote:Hated Identity Crisis too. Pointless deaths, and there's no way the killer should've known Robin and Superman's secret identities.

The problem with Identity Crisis isn't the 'pointless deaths', it's the complete fudge that is Jean's motive.

She wanted Ray back? That's it? She went and killed people (or, at least, went with the intent of assaulting and ended up likking by incompetence), to try and get back a man who would have jumped her if she's just said "let's fuck"?

Bloody mystery novelists. Exes are the new butlers.

As for secret identities, well, there's rumblings that Jason Todd is back (as the Red Hood, and yes, Todd's rumoured return is, frankly, the oldest trick in the book), and may have been for some while. Odds are he's connected.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2005-04-02 06:22pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Read it, laughed my ass off how bad they want to become Marvel.

"The Mutan...uh Metas are the menace...as the guardians of humanity...we must contain and defeat them. And oh yeah, Bats has developed a weapon for us!!!!"

They're reacting to JLU (which, in turn, is following Wildstorm, albeit some time after Team Achilles and Coup D'état). And, since they have a million different titles with conflicting fanbases and interests, they're doing it badly.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-04-02 06:54pm

SirNitram wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Read it, laughed my ass off how bad they want to become Marvel.

"The Mutan...uh Metas are the menace...as the guardians of humanity...we must contain and defeat them. And oh yeah, Bats has developed a weapon for us!!!!"
Please tell me you're kidding. That's just too pathetic for words.

Unfortunatly no. Which is why I read more Vertigo...may be held by DC but stupidity doesn't reach them as much.

And I agree with Vendetta, but it's worse, because it's not just following JLU and badly...it's basically following bullshit after bullshit(ie supposedly the after math of CoIE?!...bullshit. I guess this mean the return of Barry Fucking Allen. Why not Kara's alive

)

Back to reading Vertigo and Indies.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-04-02 07:02pm

Vendetta wrote: As for secret identities, well, there's rumblings that Jason Todd is back (as the Red Hood, and yes, Todd's rumoured return is, frankly, the oldest trick in the book), and may have been for some while. Odds are he's connected.

And oh it's him because Winnick hinted in the Scarecrow arc earlier his run, that when in Hush, they dug up JT's bod...they ressurected him

As for ID crisis bit...it wasn't even the murder, it was Metzer's half assed try to make that pathetic idiot Light and the evil of DCU...are in essence really smart. Just dumb 99.9999999% of the time. Him and Jones need to read what they write more often then not.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-04-02 07:05pm

Ghost Rider wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Read it, laughed my ass off how bad they want to become Marvel.

"The Mutan...uh Metas are the menace...as the guardians of humanity...we must contain and defeat them. And oh yeah, Bats has developed a weapon for us!!!!"
Please tell me you're kidding. That's just too pathetic for words.
Unfortunatly no. Which is why I read more Vertigo...may be held by DC but stupidity doesn't reach them as much.

And I agree with Vendetta, but it's worse, because it's not just following JLU and badly...it's basically following bullshit after bullshit(ie supposedly the after math of CoIE?!...bullshit. I guess this mean the return of Barry Fucking Allen. Why not Kara's alive )

Back to reading Vertigo and Indies.

It's beyond pathetic that a horror-angst RPG shop(White Wolf) and a kid's movie shop(Pixar) can pull off the 'Humans don't like supers' plotline well, but DC has to imitate it's competitor.(I'm speaking of The Incredibles and Aberrant, here.) I mean, I've always enjoyed the X-men's persecution angle, but I expect DC to show an inkling of difference.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-04-02 07:14pm

SirNitram wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:
SirNitram wrote: Please tell me you're kidding. That's just too pathetic for words.
Unfortunatly no. Which is why I read more Vertigo...may be held by DC but stupidity doesn't reach them as much.

And I agree with Vendetta, but it's worse, because it's not just following JLU and badly...it's basically following bullshit after bullshit(ie supposedly the after math of CoIE?!...bullshit. I guess this mean the return of Barry Fucking Allen. Why not Kara's alive )

Back to reading Vertigo and Indies.
It's beyond pathetic that a horror-angst RPG shop(White Wolf) and a kid's movie shop(Pixar) can pull off the 'Humans don't like supers' plotline well, but DC has to imitate it's competitor.(I'm speaking of The Incredibles and Aberrant, here.) I mean, I've always enjoyed the X-men's persecution angle, but I expect DC to show an inkling of difference.

Especially that unlike JLU, they literally worship their heroes. I mean for fuck's sake Luthor's before Jeph Loeb's "He's gone batshit insane...ummm...because......ummmmmmmmmm!!!!!" public face, pretty much was "Superman is your friend."

Hell, the reason DC and Marvel are so different is that while said bizarre persecution exists about that they may or may not like the whole hero bit. DC takes the next step and works and hire these people out as if they are nothing more then another resource...something Marvel does only to make some bad storyline about "The Mutants are being used to hunt others!!!!!". Hell DC abides by the thought that Heroes are nothing more then people who wear tights, and that's it. Only a few warped individuals percieve them as the threat to *humanity*.

DC did that one thing right. Superman saves Earth umpteen billionth time, and people learn to like him. Not go "He's the eval because...um...he is!!!!" Marvel's stchick about constant persecution wears thin because it's this random haberdashery that honestly makes no sense, who evil and who isn't and why.

So in the end, not only are they imitating to make a buck, they are doing it at the expense of the sole bit of why they are even remotely different then their competitors.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-04-02 07:28pm

Oh, I agree that for reading comics regularly, the 'Persecution!!!' would get old. This is why I enjoy Marvel in it's state as the X-Men movies and the like; in small doses, and with the threats shown there, it's utterly beleivable that they would be treated like scum. When they have saved it from umpteenth million non-Mutant threats.. Not so beleivable.

And of course, DC is utterly alien to this. Supers are just.. Hey, you, with the cape. Help me tie my shoe? Sure, good citizen!

Aberrant ran it well.. The only threats the Aberrants ever solved were Aberrant-made(Or so went the publicity; solving natural disasters was glossed over well), so if we get rid of all of them, no problem!

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2005-04-02 08:31pm

Ghost Rider wrote: As for ID crisis bit...it wasn't even the murder, it was Metzer's half assed try to make that pathetic idiot Light and the evil of DCU...are in essence really smart. Just dumb 99.9999999% of the time. Him and Jones need to read what they write more often then not.

Dr. Light's been a bit of a badass in Teen Titans of late. Mainly because his powers now apparently let him control pretty much anything made of photons or electrons (Superboy's heat visions, the lightning from Cassie's lasso, etc), and good old fashioned kickings aren't good enough to stop him either. They've pulled in pretty much every Titan ever to stop him.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2005-04-02 08:35pm

I got to point out that the X-Men's main foe were mutants. You know like... Magneto?

I mean realistically speaking Magneto alone would account for alot of panic on account of Mutants, amoung his feats are sinking nuclear subs, rasing volcanos and shutting off electrical power across the world for a couple days (granted that last one was almost has much to blame on the world's various governments, but moving on...)

Not to mention most of the times the world is saved... No one knows about it.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2005-04-02 08:36pm

All of this, of course, is a symptom of what I frequently criticise franchise comics for, and why I beleive that the whole sorry mess needs blowing up and some real stories need telling.

On that note, I bought Top 10 book 2 today.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-04-02 08:37pm

Vendetta wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote: As for ID crisis bit...it wasn't even the murder, it was Metzer's half assed try to make that pathetic idiot Light and the evil of DCU...are in essence really smart. Just dumb 99.9999999% of the time. Him and Jones need to read what they write more often then not.
Dr. Light's been a bit of a badass in Teen Titans of late. Mainly because his powers now apparently let him control pretty much anything made of photons or electrons (Superboy's heat visions, the lightning from Cassie's lasso, etc), and good old fashioned kickings aren't good enough to stop him either. They've pulled in pretty much every Titan ever to stop him.

Actually they did this before in JLA and Green Latern, better then even the Titan version.

In JLA he was literally the power player for Luthor's plans because of his light control...he was also the coward. In Green Latern, it basically took Kyle to start using something other then the ring to fuck with him...namely hurling stuff, and having Light go "Ha, I can control your...shit that a building.."

But it's more my comment that they say that he was mind stripped is what got me. Basically they created something that was never alluded to. Dr Light was a coward and an egotist, but nope before that every came into being...he was a mean SOB......which was never shown except in Metzer's mind.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2005-04-02 08:38pm

frigidmagi wrote:I got to point out that the X-Men's main foe were mutants. You know like... Magneto?

Remeber that Magneto's schtick is that Mutants will inevitably suffer the same thing as the Jews have, and he's not going to sit there and take it.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-04-02 08:40pm

Vendetta wrote:All of this, of course, is a symptom of what I frequently criticise franchise comics for, and why I beleive that the whole sorry mess needs blowing up and some real stories need telling.

On that note, I bought Top 10 book 2 today.

Top Ten is good stuff, and I love the Cosmic Cat and Supermice they have.

As for the first part...I swear at time they get stuff right, then they show that really that was because someone in power had a braincell, but along comes a Silver Age prima donna wanna be...who wants his childhood back. Fuck you, Jeph Loeb and Alex Ross. Let Hal, Ollie, Jason and the whole fuck load stay dead and stop robbing the grave to find a storyline you fucking idiots.

And people wonder why so many fo the early and mid 80's greats wonder what the fuck happened.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-04-02 08:44pm

Vendetta wrote:
frigidmagi wrote:I got to point out that the X-Men's main foe were mutants. You know like... Magneto?
Remeber that Magneto's schtick is that Mutants will inevitably suffer the same thing as the Jews have, and he's not going to sit there and take it.

Even worse...and this adds to the silliness of Marvel's bit. Mags while a mutant...early on was recognized as NOT the X-Men. Hell, even when he was threatening Earth with Nukes(and that X-storyline isn't even remotely unique...he's done it before), he was not the X-Men. Hell, the worst dicotomy is that Cap supports these people...so in an Avenger's book they eventually get accepted. Go back to their book...they are considered the "EVAL!!11!!!!"

Literally Marvel went with the bullshit 60's persecution thought, and never learned to get over it in the slightest.

I will just say, as per Nitram's thought. The X-Movies handle it better since they aren't regarded good off the bad, and then descend into the stupidity that is now.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2005-04-02 08:52pm

Ghost Rider wrote:
Top Ten is good stuff, and I love the Cosmic Cat and Supermice they have.

As for the first part...I swear at time they get stuff right, then they show that really that was because someone in power had a braincell, but along comes a Silver Age prima donna wanna be...who wants his childhood back. Fuck you, Jeph Loeb and Alex Ross. Let Hal, Ollie, Jason and the whole fuck load stay dead and stop robbing the grave to find a storyline you fucking idiots.

And people wonder why so many fo the early and mid 80's greats wonder what the fuck happened.

It's all because they want to keep the franchises reasonably stable. You can't do anything really radical in either universe, because the characters have more value as franchises than as storytelling devices (JLU probably gets more viewers than buy every DCU book put together, it's certainly CN's biggest ever ratings in the 18-34 market).

Remember, DC is owned by a media conglomerate and Marvel by a toy company.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2005-04-02 08:58pm

And yeah, the supermice/cosmic cats, and their rendition of, essentially, Secret Crisis of the Infinity Hour was ace. I loved the feline Galactus... Plus the payoff for that was fantastic.

Alan Moore should put some of his magic mojo on these upstarts. (though, obviously, he may face some resistance from Morrison)

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-04-02 09:00pm

Vendetta wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:
Top Ten is good stuff, and I love the Cosmic Cat and Supermice they have.

As for the first part...I swear at time they get stuff right, then they show that really that was because someone in power had a braincell, but along comes a Silver Age prima donna wanna be...who wants his childhood back. Fuck you, Jeph Loeb and Alex Ross. Let Hal, Ollie, Jason and the whole fuck load stay dead and stop robbing the grave to find a storyline you fucking idiots.

And people wonder why so many fo the early and mid 80's greats wonder what the fuck happened.
It's all because they want to keep the franchises reasonably stable. You can't do anything really radical in either universe, because the characters have more value as franchises than as storytelling devices (JLU probably gets more viewers than buy every DCU book put together, it's certainly CN's biggest ever ratings in the 18-34 market).

Remember, DC is owned by a media conglomerate and Marvel by a toy company.

Believe I know...everytime I watch a Batman/X/Super Flick, I know.

Gah.

And just for shits and giggles. I've asked a Marvel editor one time about why they didn't like this Daredevil story line I proposed...and his answer verbatim?

"We wish to maintain the illusion of change."

I know DC has that format, given Superman/Batman's respective demise and such not. But believe me, that statement always comes back and bites me in the ass everytime I open a Diamond catalog and see this tripe.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-04-02 09:01pm

Vendetta wrote:And yeah, the supermice/cosmic cats, and their rendition of, essentially, Secret Crisis of the Infinity Hour was ace. I loved the feline Galactus... Plus the payoff for that was fantastic.

Alan Moore should put some of his magic mojo on these upstarts. (though, obviously, he may face some resistance from Morrison)

I want my Galticpuss Giant toy, dammit!

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2005-04-02 09:05pm

Oh, I agree that for reading comics regularly, the 'Persecution!!!' would get old. This is why I enjoy Marvel in it's state as the X-Men movies and the like; in small doses, and with the threats shown there, it's utterly beleivable that they would be treated like scum. When they have saved it from umpteenth million non-Mutant threats.. Not so beleivable.

The thing is, the X-Men are NOT consistently dedicated superheroes like the Avengers and the Fantastic Four. They have a lot of mission creep and they have to spend a lot of time taking care of their own rather than engaging in active superheroing.

There's lot of other reasons, too. Fact is, the X-Men have a serious image problem, and they SUCK at marketing themselves to the public. They claim to be peaceful educators, but what kind of teachers wear high impact Kevlar (cookie for the quote) in public? They claim to be against mutant terrorism, and while they generally are, they have let so many ex-terrorists on their team that it's a wonder Nick Fury will even still give them the time of day. And appearance matters; many of them mutants at Xavier's school look extremely bizarre and have got even more bizarre powers, and that obviously cannot work for them. Plus, the label homo superior...there are very real, and perfectly reasonable in light of the behavior of certain extremist mutants, fears that mutants will soon replace human beings - violently so, if necessary. Even though the X-Men don't follow this creed, they cannot avoid being associated with it. In light of all these factors, it's a wonder they aren't hated even more. Sure, they've saved lives, but American blacks joined the military in WWII to fight for the people of the United States, and did that somehow sway the committed bigots? Fuck no. The books are written largely from the perspective of mutants, so we see that their really are good guys, public perception aside...but if you try and imagine what normal people might think of the X-Men, and you'll see a much different picture.

But there are lots of stupid inconsistencies that complicate things, so it makes less sense.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2005-04-02 09:07pm

"We wish to maintain the illusion of change."

Let me guess. Harras?