Favorite weapons of the LOTR movies?

[Setzer]

Post some links to images of the weapons, and maybe then I could decide.

[Elheru Aran]

Some pics-- I could only find a few, I'll try to find more when I can...

Elven sword:


Glamdring (United Cutlery reproduction, very accurate)


Hadhafang (UC repro)


Sting (UC repro):


Narsil (UC repro; Anduril is basically the same with a little extra handle detail)
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[Iceberg]

Here's a third-party repro of Anduril; it differs from the real thing in the following characteristics:

1: The guard is slightly less ornate.
2: No gold-plating in the hollows of the guard and pommel
3: The pommel is slightly shorter than the pommel of the genuine article.
4: No inscriptions on blade or pommel (the pommel of Anduril bears the inscription "Narsil am I, a mighty sword, Telchar made me in Nogrod"; the blade bears the inscription "I am Anduril who was Narsil, the sword of Elendil. Let the thralls of Mordor flee me").
5: Blade is 11 5/8" shorter than the genuine article (the official repro has a 40 5/8" blade, the third-party repro has a 29" blade).

[Comosicus]

I like the elven two-handed swords. I think that they are more original compared to the other options.

Now, I'm not an sword expert, but I think that those upward strikes are more likely to surprise the enemy. I mean, most strikes from normal weapons come downwards or from aside. These are the places covered by armor and better protected with a shield. But an upward strike has more chances to hit under the armor: the groin, the feet and basically all the less protected joints.

[Connor MacLeod]

Connor--
I think you're overlooking one very important fact. in ANY military with an ounce of common sense, if something doesn't work, it's either modified so that it DOES work, or it's discarded for something that works.

Which bears on the fact that most Elves seem to have been using these silly Bat'leths for a long time how?

Also, any military with common sense will field-test any new pieces of equipment to destruction. The US Army did this with the M9 Beretta-- they fired >15K rounds through one, then did the same with it in "field" conditions (ie, dirty, muddy, etc)-- and it worked great.

And this bears on that ridiculous movie weapon how exactly? Nothing I can recall about a Beretta makes them inherently less effective than any other sort of handgun. Whereas these Elven weapons lack the range of a spear (or even an axe or sword) and the mobility of a sword or knife (or axe).

Likewise, the Elves had even longer to test their swords; they also had great opportunity to test them, having had the chance to go up against dragons and Morgoth's horde (which, by all accounts, was even more fearsome than Sauron's). If the swords were as implausible as you describe them being, they would've been recognized as useless long before the Battle of Dagorlad, and discarded.

How are they going to be more effective than a regular sword, or a spear? I challenge you to point out to me how these weaposn would be more "practical" than something more conventional against orcs, dragons, or whatnot. I'd be quite amused to see this proven (especially in lights of the tactics we've seen them used.) The fact that the Elves could defeat enemies with them does not automatically make their design superior to other kinds of weapons - it could be because of magic, the aforementioned Elven "abilities", or Morgoth's armies could be as idiotic as the orcs and such we saw in the movies. Nor does it automatically mean that the Elves could not be more effective if they employed other kinds of weapons.

Although technically, we have no reason to assume these weapons are anything but a silly invention of Peter Jackson's, since AFAIK they only show up in the movies - not neccesarily in the books.

But wait-- couldn't the swords possibly have been a new design, untested? Hell no! Would anybody bring something to a fight that they hadn't thoroughly tested? I know for a fact that I'd much rather take just my bare fists to a fight rather than use something that I haven't beaten around.

You're assuming a competence regarding weapons choices or design on their part that is not neccesarily there, especially since it is something from the movies we are discussing. Rather than speculating aimlessly, perhaps you can actually prove to me how these weapons have inherent advantages over a longsword or spear or even an axe.

The Elves' natural quickness and strength make for very fast, very powerful swings.

So? That would be true of any weapon (Arwen or Elrond using his longsword, Gil-Galad with his spear, Legolas with his knives, etc.) so this does not really help you, does it?

Also, you don't need to be able to defend with the blade; I would not be surprised at all if they also used the handle defensively in the same manner as a staff weapon.

A shield would be even more effective. We saw that they have shields (Which is another strike against it - the design actually hampers its use along with a shield compared to a sword or spear or axe.)

It's covered with hardened leather reinforced with metal, and considering that they were going up against badly forged Orcish blades of soft metal, that would probably have been very sufficient.

So? This doesn't negate the fact they have to let the enemy actually get close enough to be a threat, but also requires large arcing strokes that would leave the wielder open to counterattack - especially in confined quarters. (Stabbing weapons would be quicker, and could be used with a shield. A spear would have the added advantage of reach. )

Also, I have some small experience handling staffs; when holding them like the Elves do their swords, you'd be surprised how easily you can move the weapon, especially if you move both your hands, not just pivoting on one or the other and using your body.

So?

As for knives, well, the Orcs have swords (albeit badly made in the 2nd Age). Would you really bring a knife, even twin knives like Legolas, up against a sword? I don't think so!

If you were up close you would. In close quarters combat, the dagger has an advantage of mobility (and it should be noted that Legolas's knives are quite long - long as a shortsword in fact.) And in any case, this doesn't apply to longswords or spears.

Regarding normal swords, they did indeed have them, I will admit, like Elrond; however, Elrond's was passed down from Earendil the Mariner, who received it from Idril Celebrindal, his mother, a princess of Gondolin. Glamdring was made in Gondolin, and as such was a very different style from the normal Elven swords, plus it was the King of Gondolin's weapon.

Which basically means that either the majority of elves were too dumb to employ a practical weapon, or Elven society actively discouraged the use of such weapons except by a select few. Still doesn't negate the fact that it is still a more effective design.

Kings and battle leaders often wield a weapon visibly different from those of their followers; witness Isildur and Narsil, Gil-Galad and Aiglos, Theoden and Heugrim, Aragorn and Anduril-- yes, even Sauron and his mace. They had different weapons to distingush them from the ordinary rank and file (although I will admit that Sauron didn't need much distingushing...).

The human blades of both leaders and soldiers were not THAT substantially different from one another (in design or purpose) - whereas the Elven Bat'leths are quite distinctly different from a spear or sword. Sorry, this doesn't excuse their design.

There's one problem with this statement. They may have "wasted" centuries and millennia... but training WILL improve a person's skill in handling a weapon! Suppose that I had a staff; once I had trained with it for 2 years, with skilled instruction, I would be capable of using it skillfully as a weapon, correct? But I would most probably be defeated by someone who had trained with a staff for 5 years, instead of my 2.

Its silly because they could have spent that time training on a more effective weapon. Again, the logic of your so called point remains true for any weapon.

We have to remember that Elves are an unusual race; they are NOT human. They are physically similar, true, but physiologially they are different. Thus, it is entirely understandable that they would adopt a different fighting style and become very experienced with it.

And this is supposed to refute the fact that a spear or sword would be better than those bat'leths.. how? We know they have swords and spears, so it can't be said they are totally unfamiliar with such weapons.

As a final note, I offer you this quote regarding Elrond's sword Hadhafang, one of the "normal" swords--

In battle, Elrond thrust at his enemies and slashed down upon them one-handed, using the whirling, circular strokes employed by Elven swordsmen.

All of which proves that one can indeed supplement the bat'leth for a normal sword - but of couse, you can do things with that sword that you can't do with the other weapon.

Even though Elrond had an normal sword, he still used the same fighting style as those using the distinctive Elven swords. Important, no?

To my argument, yes. Doesn't really seem to hlep yours in any conclusive manner.

I'm not looking for a debate, Connor. I just think that there are important points to be considered as regards the usefulness of the Elven weapons.

You've yet to point out how such a weapon can be more useful than a spear or a sword (or an axe, for that matter.) since it lacks the flexibility of one and the reach of the other.

I'm not saying that your points aren't valid; in another context they may very well be.

What "other" sorrt of context are you thinking of aside from practicality?

I just know that the Elves weren't idiots; if this weapon had been so lousy, they wouldn't have used it. Yet they did. Therefore, they had good reasons for using it.

Unfounded assumption. The fact they did use it does not automatically mean it is an effective weapon (or even that the Elves made competent choices - thats just the assumption *you* make.)

[Edi]

Elheru, you might as well acknowledge that you just got thoroughly trounced in this debate. Insisting that the elves wouldn't have been stupid enough to use a less than effective weapon is completely academic when discussing the movie because they in fact did use an inferior weapon design. You can protest all you want, but the objectively verifiable facts contradict you. Failure to admit that when it happens is deeply frowned upon here and will generate a lot of ill will toward the culprit.

The books only refer to elven swords without specifying curvature, but Glamdring, Orcrist, Ringil and other blades that have been brought up as examples of superior elven weapons have always been straight. The only references to curved weapons I remember was "scimitars of steel" in a comment about Uruk-Hai, and a reference to Southron weapons.

As Connor has pointed out, a simple straight sword (or even a simple curved sword like a scimitar, tulwar or khopesh) would be far superior to the movie elven S-blade, which is something Jackson obviously pulled out of his hat. If you're using the LotR Movie Weapons Guide for a source as it looks like you are, it has some relatively incredible bullshit in it about the elven armaments, such as the description about the way the elven shield being designed to be used as a weapon and the stuff about how its grip is made. Hard to understand and completely ludicrous in concept.

The final point being, the elves of the books are probably as smart and competent as you think they are, but the ones in the movies are decidedly not, as evidenced by their choice of main infantry weapon and the fact that at Hornburg elven archers rushed to melee combat with their quivers still full of arrows. Blame the director if you want, but in a debate about the LotR movie, you're going to have to just live with what you see on the screen, and so far it all works to your detriment.

Edi

[Elheru Aran]

Whatever... don't really care about this debate by now. The weapons just have coolness factor? All right, that's fine by me. I just think the design had potential, that's all, and I was exploring how it might have its uses. I do think that it might be practical enough, given work...

Aside from that... *shrug* Fine. I'll take my own advice from another thread (in HoS, towards Omega-13) and bow out graciously.

[2000AD]

Personally i quite like the pump-action crossbows the Uruk hais have.

[Comosicus]

I was impressed by the visual effect of the elven line striking the orcs. Maybe what Jackson wanted was just a cool and exotic weapon. But this doesn't have anything to do with the arguments Connor gave, so it's just a personal opinion.

[Comosicus]

Another thing that poped into my head. This thread remembers me of the debate upon AT-ST. The elven swords could be replaced by a better combination, as it was shown before. But this doesn't change the fact that they are seen and used in the movie. And I wonder if we discuss those weapons in the movie universe or their usefullness in the real world. Hope you understand what I meant to say.

[Elheru Aran]

Another thing that poped into my head. This thread remembers me of the debate upon AT-ST. The elven swords could be replaced by a better combination, as it was shown before. But this doesn't change the fact that they are seen and used in the movie. And I wonder if we discuss those weapons in the movie universe or their usefullness in the real world. Hope you understand what I meant to say.

I'm not sure what you mean... do you mean that we are talking about the weapons as seen in the movies and used there, or as they would be if used here in the real world? I think we're talking about how useful they'd be in real world... it's obvious that most of the weapons in the movie work there, but might not here in the real world (as the debate upon the usefulness of the Elven swords has demonstrated). Hope that clears up matters...

[Pulse]

In terms of wow factor, I thought Grond the battering ram was pretty cool. The roar from the Orcs of "Grond, Grond" as it was raised and then "fired" was brilliant.

[Isolder74]

I have Glambdring hanging on the wall in my room


Guess what my favorite weapon is?