Superpeople lifting extremely large things

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-02-02 01:44am

This is something that bothers me. It's not uncommon in comic books for superheroes, like Superman, who can lift tremendously large objects and do stuff like fly with them or throw them or what have you. For instance, Superman freezing a lake into an icecube and flying with it, or some of the times we've seen him lift a large boat. This seems odd, and not just because of his superstrength. He's a superperson, so he's got the physical power to lift the tanker, I accept that. The rub is that when he's lifting, he's applying all the force necessary to lift the object in an extremely small area, specifically his hands. Wouldn't that huge pressure punch rip a hole in the tanker of smash through the ice, rather than lift it?

Lots of comic and anime characters seem to be able to lift super large things without breaking them in half or tearing a hole in it. How exactly does that work?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-02 01:49am

Tactile TK field.

Seriously, it's newest and honestly most logical way of looking at it. Sure it's utterly inane on many levels but does fit also the inane *clothing not being obliterated* bit as well.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-02-02 01:53am

Ghost Rider wrote:Tactile TK field.

Seriously, it's newest and honestly most logical way of looking at it. Sure it's utterly inane on many levels but does fit also the inane *clothing not being obliterated* bit as well.

But we've seen people like the Hulk do it and the Hulk doesn't have a drop of telekinetic powers. He's all about brute strength.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2004-02-02 01:53am

yup and we can thank Reed richards and the invisible woman for figuring out tactile TK.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-02 01:55am

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Tactile TK field.

Seriously, it's newest and honestly most logical way of looking at it. Sure it's utterly inane on many levels but does fit also the inane *clothing not being obliterated* bit as well.
But we've seen people like the Hulk do it and the Hulk doesn't have a drop of telekinetic powers. He's all about brute strength.

Oh very true...so most ediotrs and writers chalk it the Tactile TK to being an unknown innate ability(and no I'm not joking literally since John Byrne first brought it up many years ago, it's become a new by word on CB physics)

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2004-02-02 09:55am

Yeah, if you have to have a explanation taticle TK is the only way. Also explains stuff like clothes, and the Hulk tuching energy..

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-02-02 12:31pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:Yeah, if you have to have a explanation taticle TK is the only way. Also explains stuff like clothes, and the Hulk tuching energy..

I thought that the clothes were explained by Reed Richard's "Unstable Molecules", at least in Marvel. The tactile TK thing doesn't make sense. Never once has the Hulk, or Ben Grimm, or Colossus ever displayed any psychic powers whatsoever. You'd think that Mr. Fantastic or Professor Xavier at least would mention that. "Oh, Poitr, guess what? Cerebro here says that you've got powerful psychokinetic powers, but only when you lift things that would normally break up when you try to lift them."

Plus, I'm thinking of the Juggernaut, who's helmet blocks psychic powers completely, and yet he still has super strength to lift heavy things without breaking them. And Iron Man, who the only reason he's strong at all is because he's wearing a power suit that gives him tremendous strength and I know I've seen him lift very heavy things.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-02-02 02:11pm

In some cases characters, like various Eternals, can manipulate gravity and/or molecules on some level or another. It still works out to being essentially the same as a tactile tk field but just a different approach to the pseudo-science.

The tk field also explains why they can be so durable without being ridiculously dense or massive. They have some sort of bio-force field around them.

Superman does, it's even mentioned as early as Man of Steel that things that are very close to his skin don't even get dirty rarely get damaged.

Miracle Man and Golden Boy (Wildcards) take this even further since their force fields are clearly visible. MM is able to do more "comic booky" types stuff while GB is a little bit more bound by normal physics but it's essentially the same.

Tasoth · Post by **Tasoth** » 2004-02-02 03:53pm

Abberrant by White Wolf attempts to explain the effect by saying that the nova(superhero) channels the quantum energy that he uses naturally into the item so it doesn't break.

Shortie · Post by **Shortie** » 2004-02-02 07:59pm

Subconcious TK also allows you to justify any number of other powers, like phasing or weather control, or winged flight. Not that TK itse;f makes much sense, but this reduces the belief that has to be suspended,

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-02-02 08:57pm

In the book "Last Son of Krypton" (a novel, not a comic) it presents one (admitedly of many over the years) theory of how it works.

Basically Supe's home planet of Krypton had much higher gravity and everybody was denser, etc, so coming to earth he was stronger naturally than everyone else.

His cape is actually the baby blanket he was wrapped in when his parents sent the rocket with him in it to escape from the dying planet, thus it's nearly indestructable (by earth standards).

His clothes are protected because his body gives off little particles that protect stuff (really close to his skin, the particles have a very short range) which are what make him invulnerable.

Somehow the particles interact with the rays of earth's Yellow Sun (theory II proposed in the "Death and Life of Superman" another novel written decades later) and Supe's body stores solar energy allowing him to hold his breath for long periods of time, use x-ray and heat vision and fly, etc. in addition to being super strong. But he has to store the energy and he expends it when he uses his powers.

Thus if superman took of his suit it would be easily destructable like normal cloth (or whatever it's supposed to be made out of) but the cape would be very strong. As long as the clothes are on him they'd be powerful.

However if I remember in the comics people have thrown acid on him (while he's dressed as Clark Kent) and his outer clothes were disolved but his suit was unaffected.

Perhaps the theory then in these comics (from the early 70's) was that his entire outfit was made from the baby blankets and clothes he had gotten from Krypton (of course if that's true, one wonders how Ma and Pa Kent were able to fashion them with regular sowing equipment they had around the house?).

In Supe's battle with Doomsday (the one where he 'died') his cape and outfit in general are torn to shreds, but that's understandable since Doomsday was powerful enough to draw blood from our hero and give him physical bruises, something you don't see very often on the big guy.

Though when Superman makes his big comeback he gets his old outfit back, but I wonder where he got some more indestructable cloth?

Then again, when Superman is flying so fast, breaking the sound barrier and all that, wouldn't his clothes be torn from his body? Oh the mind reels.. ; )

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-02-02 09:00pm

The whole "super dense" thing though is worrisome becaue you'd think he'd constantly be having to just barely touch stuff for fear of utterly demonlishing it and he'd have to constantly be using his flight powers to "hover" so he wasn't making huge craters in the ground whenever he walked around.

As a child those things would be hard to control, but then again in the comics it's explained that his powers developed slowly (forgotten in the "superboy" comics) so perhaps he had time to master them before they became too powerful.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-02 09:02pm

You do understand that John Byrne suggested the Tactile TK field as the explaination of the Post crisis Superman?

Literally DC has decided that if anything they would use in their persay canon resources would come from comics of 1986-onwards.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-02-02 09:04pm

I'll say this again, Byrne's Superman run was exquisite. He actually tried to make the big guy's powers make SOME scientific sense and he cut him down to a more reaosnable level of power and strength.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-02-02 09:04pm

Shortie wrote:Subconcious TK also allows you to justify any number of other powers, like phasing or weather control, or winged flight. Not that TK itse;f makes much sense, but this reduces the belief that has to be suspended,

I don't know. It seems like a real awkward solution to me. For instance, I used the example of the Juggernaut, who couldn't possibly use subconscious TK because of his helmet blocking all psychic powers, but still has all the super-strength effects going for him.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-02 09:07pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Shortie wrote:Subconcious TK also allows you to justify any number of other powers, like phasing or weather control, or winged flight. Not that TK itse;f makes much sense, but this reduces the belief that has to be suspended,
I don't know. It seems like a real awkward solution to me. For instance, I used the example of the Juggernaut, who couldn't possibly use subconscious TK because of his helmet blocking all psychic powers, but still has all the super-strength effects going for him.

He uses Magic...seriously. It's the basis of his power and the greatest salve fantasy/comicdom/fiction writing in general has ever come up with.

While Tacticle TK is really persay a salve CBs use, it's honestly the best thing they've come up with because no amount of physics bending is ever going to allow any man sized being lift a battleship.

So they've come up with a salve.

Bertie Wooster · Post by **Bertie Wooster** » 2004-02-02 09:07pm

I like the idea of the tactile TK field, but it doesn't explain Ironman's exploits, who in Acts of Vengeance, carried and flew away with Moleman's several-hundred(thousand?) ton monster. I don't think we can use the tactile TK field on Ironman because his abilities are technologically based.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-02 09:09pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:I like the idea of the tactile TK field, but it doesn't explain Ironman's exploits, who in Acts of Vengeance, carried and flew away with Moleman's several-hundred(thousand?) ton monster. I don't think we can use the tactile TK field on Ironman because his abilities are technologically based.

Actually he could use Anti Grav as a part of his suit's abilities, certainly explains his flying much better then rocket boots.

Literally most Superstrength is split amongst three easy things.

Tactile TK(be it concious or sub concious).

Manipulation of gravity/Magnetic fields or comic writers eternal love...energy manipulation.

Magic.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-02-02 09:10pm

Ghost Rider wrote:You do understand that John Byrne suggested the Tactile TK field as the explaination of the Post crisis Superman?

Literally DC has decided that if anything they would use in their persay canon resources would come from comics of 1986-onwards.

I thought that Superman's power came from the effects of the yellow sun on Kryptonians, and he loses it gradually after he leaves exposure to the yellow sun. That's how Lex Luthor was able to have that fair fight with him, because they went to a planet that orbited a red sun, so he wasn't been charged up. I don't see how tactical TK falls into that.

Bertie Wooster · Post by **Bertie Wooster** » 2004-02-02 09:12pm

Thats very true, I forgot about his magnetic and gravity manipulation technology. His uni-beam is like the deflector-dish of his armor.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-02-02 09:16pm

Ghost Rider wrote:He uses Magic...seriously. It's the basis of his power and the greatest salve fantasy/comicdom/fiction writing in general has ever come up with.

The Juggernaut's crystal thing being magic doesn't change anything. His magic only ups his own strength, it wouldn't suddenly make what he's lifting anymore durable. He still should rip right through things given the strength that he uses to lift things.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-02 09:20pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:He uses Magic...seriously. It's the basis of his power and the greatest salve fantasy/comicdom/fiction writing in general has ever come up with.
The Juggernaut's crystal thing being magic doesn't change anything. His magic only ups his own strength, it wouldn't suddenly make what he's lifting anymore durable. He still should rip right through things given the strength that he uses to lift things.

While true, the fact they've never said yea or nay about how, applies that he must somehow exert something to keep said object intact when lifting. Thus I just believe it's him never being able to harnass the full power of the Bands of Cytorrak and it innately doing said thing for him.

Otherwise his strength would backfire and he would sink like a rock in a pond the instant he touched solid ground.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-02 09:22pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:You do understand that John Byrne suggested the Tactile TK field as the explaination of the Post crisis Superman?

Literally DC has decided that if anything they would use in their persay canon resources would come from comics of 1986-onwards.
I thought that Superman's power came from the effects of the yellow sun on Kryptonians, and he loses it gradually after he leaves exposure to the yellow sun. That's how Lex Luthor was able to have that fair fight with him, because they went to a planet that orbited a red sun, so he wasn't been charged up. I don't see how tactical TK falls into that.

Tactile TK is literally his power from what he acquires from the Yellow sun...some reaction with said solar energy and his body produces said effect...nothing more was honestly given.

His body though is actually dense...much like Daxamites which is why hitting Superman still hurts even if he doesn't have said field around him(they have noted his unusally high density multiple times)

LobsterZoidberg · Post by **LobsterZoidberg** » 2004-02-02 09:52pm

some reaction with said solar energy and his body produces said effect...nothing more was honestly given.

Actually, there's a little more that was mentioned in one story.

In it, Supes caught some sort of disease that was essentially turning bits of him into Kryptonite. Uninteresting, but during the rather lame "miniturize some superheroes and let them loose in his bloodstream to fight the disease," Steel and Superboy almost get sucked into Supe's stomach, which is described as turning matter into energy rather efficiently. My take on this was that Supes would do this to some degree regardless of light conditions, but yellow light allows this to occur more efficiently. It's dumb, but it's better than the standard "solar battery" explanation.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-02-03 04:52am

Another tid-bit from Byrne's Man of Steel mini had Superman noticing that he had an easier time with heavy objects when he flew with them. This was while he was flying with an ocean liner.

This is the same type of thing that Marvel has been saying about the Eternals for years. They may be "x" strong but can suplement their lifting strength by partially levitating whatever it is they are trying to lift. Now, Marvel has never explained what this meant but you can see that Byrne understood this stuff because that's essentially what he was showing in the FF #249 where he has Gladiator kicking the crap out of the FF and "lifting" the Baxter Building. cover FF #249. Personally, I've thought for awhile that Gladiator is a "Eternal" of whatever species he originates from.

Anyway, I think that Byrne had that in his revamp of Superman so he could still nock down his purely physical strength while still allowing him to do classic "Superman" things like flying with an ocean liner.

This always reminds me of the GIANT comic Superman vs. Spiderman. In the book there is a section that describes the powers of each. Superman is shown standing while pressing an Iowa Class battleship over his head.

I was really glad when Byrne's Superman wasn't that strong anymore.