Return of the King Discussion Thread (MAJOR SPOILERS!)

Demiurge · Post by **Demiurge** » 2003-12-31 03:47pm

Contrived, yes. Also kind of strange, in my opinion. It was supposed to be a happy reunion, but there was something a little off. I think it was the laughter. There was too much laughter. Realism aside, It made the characters seem psychotically insane.

Very disturbing.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-01-05 03:09pm

One thing i notcied recently is that in RotK, Theoden is disappointed to have only six thouasand men, he says it is half of what he had hoped for, meaning he had hoped for no less no 12002 men. Yet in TTT grima was implying that a host of only ten,thousand was un-heard of? So what gives?

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-01-05 03:14pm

The 12000-strong Rohirrim was only theoretical in strength and apparently had never actually been mustered. In addition, Grima probably did not think anyone in the area had fielded such an army - Saruman's host was built without the knowledge of Rohan, and by extension, Grima himself.

El Moose Monstero · Post by **El Moose Monstero** » 2004-01-06 12:49pm

Just to raise the whole Mordor/hollow point that was talked about in the USN Carrier thread, could the reason for the collapse be associated with the eruption or build up to the eruption of Mount Doom as well as Sauron's defeat, I mean, can the collapse be justified by saying that it had a shallow magma chamber which was in the process of emptying into Orodruin with the rings destruction and some sort of energy release/magical force, and when the magma chamber emptied, the land under Mordor literally was hollow?

Rhadamanthus · Post by **Rhadamanthus** » 2004-01-14 07:17am

Vympel wrote: 1. Witch-King: he was supposed to be on a horse riding out of Minas Morgul, and changed to his Fell Beast after his confrontation with Gandalf. Unfortunately, the confrontation with Gandalf doesn't happen.

Apparently it'll be in the EE. Though still FUBAR, Gandalf confronts the Wiki (with Fell Beast) on the walls, no shattering of the gates

3. Denethor: goes from a stern, overly demanding father figure to a hopeless, power hungry, insane, not to mention disgusting, boor, who gets smacked around by Gandalf for good measure. He doesn't even light the damn beacons. Totally unnecessary.

That was god awful, his contending with Gandalf was so much better in the book, and they ruined the pyre too.....But Denethor was made of sturdy stuff, to run out of the crypt, along the mountain, and then throw himself over the edge via the gap apparently placed there solely for the use of suicidal stewards...all while engulfed in flames.

4. As with alot of you, Arawens sudden connection to the fate of the Ring struck me as WRONG. They could have kept her in it, like in the end with Aragorn but the little drama of her slowly dying. Blah.

The worst part was....there was no fucking follow up to that whatsoever.

Elrond: Arwen is dying!
Aragorn: That sucks
.
.
*cut to Coronation at Minas Tirith and Arwen showing up, healthy and happy as can be.*

Aragorn: SHWEET!!!

The 12000-strong Rohirrim was only theoretical in strength and apparently had never actually been mustered. In addition, Grima probably did not think anyone in the area had fielded such an army - Saruman's host was built without the knowledge of Rohan, and by extension, Grima himself.

Another pointless change that leaves loose ends. In the book Theoden gathers 10,000, but takes only 6,000 with him to Minas Tirith because he does not want to leave Rohan defenseless if Gondor falls.

Melkor · Post by **Melkor** » 2004-01-28 03:34pm

Actually, when leaving some troops behind Theoden was more concerned with other armies besides the ones attacking Gondor. Lothlorien was attacked as well as Mirkwood(Legolas' home) and Erebor(Gimli's home). Raiding parties were also a problem. If Gondor had fallen no amount of troops would have saved Rohan. Theoden was more afraid of returning home victorious only to find a ravaged land and people.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-02 12:46am

Unstickied.

El Moose Monstero · Post by **El Moose Monstero** » 2004-02-02 12:51am

OMG, Lord of the Rings owns Star Wars and Star Trek and everything else, the Ring would corrupt everyone and Sauron would rule all, turbolasers would bounce off the door of night and Melkor would return and rule the universe, not even supernovas would stop them...

There, thread should be fairly sticky again now...

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-02 12:53am

The_Lumberjack wrote:OMG, Lord of the Rings owns Star Wars and Star Trek and everything else, the Ring would corrupt everyone and Sauron would rule all, turbolasers would bounce off the door of night and Melkor would return and rule the universe, not even supernovas would stop them...

There, thread should be fairly sticky again now...

Bad...no Spam

El Moose Monstero · Post by **El Moose Monstero** » 2004-02-02 12:54am

Apologies, couldn't resist.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-02 12:57am

The_Lumberjack wrote:Apologies, couldn't resist.

Don't worry, but just unstickied because honestly...last response was some time really.

Maybe with a new DVD another one will come of it.

Still hoping it gets something in the Oscars

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2004-02-04 10:26pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Don't worry, but just unstickied because honestly...last response was some time really.

Sorry, I've only just seen it and it is more then what I thought it's be.
I haven't read the novel (yea, yea, I'm ready for the flames), so can someone tell me what the differences were?
Also, can someone tell me what happens between the point where Legolas jumps on the Alophont (sp?) and the bit where Sam is killing Orcs and shouts "FOR THE SHIRE!" as I needed the loo badly at that point.
I thought it was an amazing film, but that could be down to the awe of seeing it for the first time.
I tried to remain spoiler free before I saw it though and I must say it was a bit screwed up that Frodo and Sam were saved. As soon as I saw the moth go to Gandalf I knew they'd be involved and kicking the ass of the Wraiths was one thing, but saving Frodo and Sam was another...
The only other bone I had to pick with the film was the blonde girl (name?) decapitating the dragon thing and then killing the head Wraith! I mean, come on, she was just a token character in my eyes!
Well, anyway, apart from that it was pretty fucking amazing.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-02-04 10:50pm

My daughter and I saw this over the weekend (my third time). She LOVED it. She clapped three times:

When Eowyn killed the Witchking

When the Eagles arrived to help fight the wraiths

When the ring was destroyed.

She also fought back tears when Theoden died. It was so cute, she kept whispering fervently to him: "Get up."

I have not had a more satisfying moviegoing experience than with her in this movie.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2004-02-04 11:02pm

Dorsk 81 wrote: I tried to remain spoiler free before I saw it though and I must say it was a bit screwed up that Frodo and Sam were saved. As soon as I saw the moth go to Gandalf I knew they'd be involved and kicking the ass of the Wraiths was one thing, but saving Frodo and Sam was another...

That's how it was in the book...

The only other bone I had to pick with the film was the blonde girl (name?) decapitating the dragon thing and then killing the head Wraith! I mean, come on, she was just a token character in my eyes!

Well, she's focused on a bit more in the book, and she DOES kill the Witch King in the book.

El Moose Monstero · Post by **El Moose Monstero** » 2004-02-05 12:17am

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Dorsk 81 wrote: I tried to remain spoiler free before I saw it though and I must say it was a bit screwed up that Frodo and Sam were saved. As soon as I saw the moth go to Gandalf I knew they'd be involved and kicking the ass of the Wraiths was one thing, but saving Frodo and Sam was another...
That's how it was in the book...

The only other bone I had to pick with the film was the blonde girl (name?) decapitating the dragon thing and then killing the head Wraith! I mean, come on, she was just a token character in my eyes!
Well, she's focused on a bit more in the book, and she DOES kill the Witch King in the book.

I know this sort of digs the topic back up, but I think I would have preffered Gandalf to make 'The Eagles are coming' cry, it would have had more meaning, IMO, especially if they go on to do the Hobbit.

Awwwww, glad she enjoyed it, Stravro, I enjoyed seeing it with my wee sister too, but she's 10 and has read the book more often than I have.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2004-02-05 01:17am

Stravo wrote:My daughter and I saw this over the weekend (my third time). She LOVED it. She clapped three times:

When Eowyn killed the Witchking

When the Eagles arrived to help fight the wraiths

When the ring was destroyed.

She also fought back tears when Theoden died. It was so cute, she kept whispering fervently to him: "Get up."

I have not had a more satisfying moviegoing experience than with her in this movie.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who enjoyed it then.
You taking her to see Episode 3? I doubt there'll be much to clap about there, except for Yoda and Obi.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2004-02-05 01:25am

You taking her to see Episode 3 Stravo? There won't be much to clap about there, except for Yoda and Obi...

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Dorsk 81 wrote: I tried to remain spoiler free before I saw it though and I must say it was a bit screwed up that Frodo and Sam were saved. As soon as I saw the moth go to Gandalf I knew they'd be involved and kicking the ass of the Wraiths was one thing, but saving Frodo and Sam was another...
That's how it was in the book...

I always thought they dies in the book!

The only other bone I had to pick with the film was the blonde girl (name?) decapitating the dragon thing and then killing the head Wraith! I mean, come on, she was just a token character in my eyes!
Well, she's focused on a bit more in the book, and she DOES kill the Witch King in the book.

WHAT?! But she's just some girl who learned how to weild a sword without killing herself! And he's "The Wraith who can't be killed!!!!!!" WTF!!!!!!?!?!?!?

El Moose Monstero · Post by **El Moose Monstero** » 2004-02-05 02:11am

He's the wraith who can't be killed by any mortal man, however, she's not a man, so it works. Go figure. That and the magic blades weilded by the hobbits in the book did some damage as well, they came from the barrow downs, which were supposedly connected to Angmar, presumably the plunder contained counter-nazgul enchanted weaponry.

And no, they don't.

Melkor · Post by **Melkor** » 2004-02-05 09:56am

Eh. Dorsk, Mr. Whitchking got a nice stab behind and through the knee. This from a sword specifically designed to fight him. After getting put down on the ground by that, Stevie Wonder coulda finished him off with quick action.

Comosicus · Post by **Comosicus** » 2004-02-05 12:22pm

The scene from the end, with all the people bowing and kneeing before the hobbits reminded me of the scene from Mulan. Same thing happened there too.

I haven't read the books (pretty hard to find here in Romania .... and also very expensive), so I don't know how much the movie was different from the books. But I liked the movie very much.

Comosicus · Post by **Comosicus** » 2004-02-05 12:24pm

Damn, no EDIT button.

I have seen recently an animated version of the Hobbit, apparently made in the '80s or '90's.

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2004-02-05 08:44pm

One note on the death of the Witch King as it is in the book, he's not described as being one "who no mortal man can kill".

In the book, it's simply a prophecy that he won't be killed by the hand of man.

After Merry stabbed the WK with his blade from the barrow downs- (I'll quote the relevant passage a little later), Stravo's daughter probably would've been able to kill the WK.

....Ok Ok...I exaggerate, but you get the point.

Now for that passage I promised

*After Eowyn kills the Fell Beast*

Out of the wreck rose the BLack Rider, tall and threatening, towering above her. With a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill.
But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from beind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneat the hauberk had piereced the sinew behind his might knee...........

*after the sword disintegrates*

So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen snews to his will.

Ths long ass quote is my overly-complex way of saying Eowyn is given too much credit for killing the Witch King.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2004-02-05 08:53pm

It's also hogwash.

There was nothing special about Merrry stabbing the Witch King other than the distraction it provided.

Anyone could have killed him at any time, however at the fall of Angmar Glorfindel sees some flash of how he is killed, and that's where the prophecy comes from about his doom being far off and not falling at the hand of mortal man. (ie. He knew it weas a woman that stabbed him in the face)

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2004-02-06 12:57am

Vendetta wrote:It's also hogwash.

There was nothing special about Merrry stabbing the Witch King other than the distraction it provided.

You did read the passage I quoted right?

T-1000 · Post by **T-1000** » 2004-02-08 07:58pm

Meest wrote:Thought it was great way of cutting all the necessary parts of the book to make the movie work. George Lucas really needs to pull a miracle to top this.

Not even, I would go far as to suggest that it is impossible for Lucas to top this. While being as brash and thoughtless as possible, I would say that there is simply nothing Lucas could do in episode 3 that would possibly be able to outdo ROTK.