Hyarmendacil's Gondor vs. Marmo (RoLW)

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2003-11-20 06:13pm

In this scenario, Lodoss is 10 day journey by boat south and west of Umbar. Sauron, hoping to distract Gondor while he rebuilds his armies in Angmar, allies with the king of Marmo (whose name I can't remember).
King Hyarmendacil, who ruled Gondor at its highest recorded strength, learns of Marmo's alliance with Sauron's forces, and assembles a fleet to conquer Marmo. The time on Lodoss will be when Marmo's offensives began in the OTL.

Points for consideration:

Can Sauron rebuild his armies quickly enough to start a two-front war?

How will Karla the Grey witch react to this huge shake-up of the balance of power?

Is my knowledge of the LOTR timeline incorrect?

Personally, I think Marmo will have a much harder time against Gondor, and will probably be defeated.
The Gondor men aren't cowards like in Kanaan, or weaklings like Alania and Valice. Whenever no-name characters fight Marmo forces, the scene immediately turns to stock footage of men getting cut to bits, riddled with arrows, etc., and it never shows them killing the enemy.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-11-21 12:28pm

Can Sauron rebuild his armies quickly enough to start a two-front war?

Sauron had vast forces in reserve at the time of Return of the King. And thoeretically he could demand service of many of the goblins outside Mordor. The army he attacked Minas Tirith with was but a taste of his forces: he had Gondor outnumbered several times over; there was no point in doing anything more. Additionally, while the Witch King of Angmar was the most powerful of the Nazgul, Sauron had 8 others, and each one of them could project a terrible aura of fear. And he had trolls, Oliphaunts, and vast eastern territories of men to draw upon. Fact is, Sauron would have won even without the Ring.

And the Gondorians kick ass. They don't die like nameless, faceless anime extras. Every man of Gondor aquitted himself well in the seige: they did not break even with hopeless odds.

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2003-11-21 03:15pm

Don't forget, Hyarmendacil ruled Gondor at its height, with Mirkwood being its Northern border, IIRC. By Return of the King, Gondor had already fallen from its heights.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-11-21 03:32pm

Actaully, I may have been confused about something: is this Mardor at the time of RotK, when it was again at its height? Or after the Last Alliance, when Sauron lost everything?

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2003-11-21 05:06pm

I believe at this time Sauron is hiding out in Dol Goldur, in Angmar.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-11-26 01:01pm

Setzer wrote:I believe at this time Sauron is hiding out in Dol Goldur, in Angmar.

Small problem: Dol Guldur was in Mirkwood, not Angmar.

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2003-11-26 01:31pm

Shite. I thought Mirkwood was part of Angmar.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-11-26 02:30pm

Setzer wrote:Shite. I thought Mirkwood was part of Angmar.

EDIT: No, Angmar is Northwest of Mirkwood.

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2003-11-26 04:24pm

Well, dammit, someone contribute more to this thread than geography nitpicks!I'm guessing Gondor and Rohan could muster maybe 20,000 if they left no men to defend their own territory.
Maybe Hyarmendacil could muster twice that.

Does anyone know the ration of Gondor men to goblins?
In the version of RoLW that I saw, they were called "Goblins", not Orcs.
Hence, Marmo's goblins aren't as tough as what Sauron could throw at Gondor.

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2003-11-26 04:26pm

by ratio, I mean kill ratio.
One on one, a goblin is no match for an armed Gondor soldier.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-11-26 04:37pm

Setzer wrote:Well, dammit, someone contribute more to this thread than geography nitpicks!I'm guessing Gondor and Rohan could muster maybe 20,000 if they left no men to defend their own territory.
Maybe Hyarmendacil could muster twice that.

I just think it's very difficult to gauge the number of troops present in either army. The clearest indication of troop strength is, I think, after the Battle of Pelennor Fields, and that's hardly fair to Gondor.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-11-26 05:58pm

Fonstad estimates in the Atlas of Middle Earth that there wer 11250 troops defending Minas Tirith, including Rohirrim reinforcements but excluding Aragon's non-coporeal troops. It should be noted that much of Gondor held back their own troops to defend against the Corsairs of Umbar.

She further estimates a minimum of 45000 attacking troops deployed by Mordor.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-11-26 07:41pm

but excluding Aragon's non-coporeal troops. Damn straight excluding them. They were dismissed after the assault at Harlond where he took the Corsairs' ships.

He did bring a fair number of real troops on those ships though

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-11-26 08:15pm

Vendetta wrote:but excluding Aragon's non-coporeal troops. Damn straight excluding them. They were dismissed after the assault at Harlond where he took the Corsairs' ships.

Gah, you're right. However, wasn't Harlond the place where Aragon disembarked his troops?

He did bring a fair number of real troops on those ships though

Fonstead estimates 1000.

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2003-11-29 02:43pm

Maybe we should just double the RotK estimates for Gondor ant its peak.

Dargos · Post by **Dargos** » 2003-11-29 07:44pm

Maybe we should just double the RotK estimates for Gondor ant its peak

I would say it would be alot more that double. the army defending Gondor was nothing but a Vangard of what Gondor could field at its Height of Power(thus showing just how far Gondor had fallen in military strength).....so said Faiamier..or was it his Father?...or The Tower Guard Captain when he was with one of the Hobbits(Merry or Pippen). Hmm..guess Im going to have togo and dig up the exact quote.[/quote]

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2003-11-30 05:52am

Ok, maybe if we multiply it by ten or so, i.e. 112,500 maximum.