Gatts(Berserk)is sent to Discworld..

[2000AD]

Actually... Carrot isn't that great of an unarmed fighter, since he utilizes the style of fighting by the Duke of... some hard to remember name.

Anyways, if someone with enough strength gets a blow on him, then it's all over. Sure, he can absorb a regular person's blow, and then knock them to hell, but if the person has exceptional strength...

(I'm basing this all off a bit near the end of The Fifth Elephent, if you must know.)

The... the what? Fifth Elephent?

Yes the Fifth Elephant. It's a Discworld book.

[Slartibartfast]

Not to mention that you just stated as fact that there aren't any more weapons or armor left in Gats universe (since he HAS CUT THRU EVERY SWORD AND ARMOR in existence).

When in doubt, let's attack the phrasing of the argument. Yeah, big man here. If you can't infer what he meant, you're a fucking retard.

Note : This is what is said :

Just because it has cut thru SOME swords and armor (those belonging to nameless ensigns... I mean soldiers) doesn't mean it can cut thru any.

I think you mean every sword and armor, but your meaning is clear.

He was correcting you. Are you such a dumbass that you don't think that SOME implies ANY?

Man, what a complete dipshit! So you think that when I say "some" I mean "every"! Did your mother drop you on your head when you were born? EVERY = ALL. SOME != ALL.

He was "correcting" me? No, he was twisting the words that I was using to mean the exact opposite of what I was saying, you donkey-sucker. You fail to realize that when one says "he cut a weak armor", and the other replies "maybe you mean a strong armor! *smiley* *wink* *wink*" it's a dishonest tactic, maybe something you find normal yourself, being a school dropout and all that.

Can you say "Suspension of Disbelief"? It's got alot of syallables, but I'm sure you'll make it someday.

I'm sure you think it's a really long word, maybe if you took a few classes you would see it is really simple and with hardly any hard letters. But then again I don't expect you to be able to spell "syllables".

Oh by the way you keep picking on the meaningless fluff from posts and ignoring the real arguments (about the two Gatts), which is quite dishonest and doesn't show much intelligence, either.

Okay then, let's make another argument. Carrot vs Carrot. Would the infinite sharpness or the infinite hardness come into play? Stay tuned!

Oh, oh... let me try: any rational person would conclude that two weapons of the same strength would either cut each other at the same time (rather silly) or maybe, maybe... bounce, like normal swords? Wow, what an exercise of a brilliant mind. Well, maybe it's like that to you, pea-brain who thinks that the one from your fav fighter cuts the other, even if they're equivalent or there's no proof of one being stronger than the other.

Okay, that wasn't an argument at all.

Well, you don't have to make a meaningless post and explicitly say it's meaningless, moron. Anyone can tell just from reading your meaningless babbling.

[Bill Door]

The way I see it, taking on the Watch means Gatts is dead. He gets hit by the fireball that is shot by Detrius' Crossbow. Unless he can get behind Detrius, 'cause thats about the only safe place in LOS.

[Cyborg Stan]

Slartibartfast, since you like to call me dishonest :

Show how strong Carrot's breastplate is. (Remember, the first thing we'd do is compare them to a known object, in this case real-life platemail. It's not that much of a stretch to say that a cut that can go through two suits of platemail will be able to go through one.) Show that it is more than four times the strength of the armors cut, because even that much would not prevent Carrot from dying.

For this matter, also show that "It's obvious that the nameless soldiers have crappy equipment." as you claim, because they cannot protect against a sword that's well over 30 times the thickness and mass of any known sword. (<sarcasm>Wait, it's obvious that you were completely honest when you said that.</sarcasm>)

Show that if even the breastplate was that strong, Carrot's neck and arms would still be strong enough to resist the cut. (Oh wait, you completely ignored this point, even cutting it out of your response, being the paradigm of honesty you are.)

[Cyborg Stan]

Note for English-deprived peoples out in the audience :

There are at least two ways that the word "Any" is used.

In one way, it means that there exists one or more objects that fit the criteria.
example :

Here's the suspects. Any matches?
Man, I suck. I can't beat any of them.

Obviously under this one, if some of the objects meet the criteria, it in turn implies this kind of any.

That's not true. You beat the Red Team once.

Another way it's used can mean that all of the objects can fit the criteria.
example :

I really don't care what flavor you pick. Any one will do.
I can defeat any of you here!

Note that for most people, the first way that the sentence "Just because it has cut thru SOME swords and armor (those belonging to nameless ensigns... I mean soldiers) doesn't mean it can cut thru any." will be interpreted is by the second definition. However, the last part can also be interpreted to mean that there are no swords that the Dragonslayer could cut.

Now, let's replace the word any with every like Cosmic Average suggested :

"doesn't mean it can cut thru every."

And there we go. The ability of the Dragonslayer to cut through fairly normal-looking broadswords does not translate to the ability to cut 3 story tall swords made out of unobtainium. This was more or less conceded by Cosmic Average, as the phrase "but your meaning is clear. :D" indicates.

Except of course, Slartibartfast rejects this interpretation. Observe the defendant's own words :

"He was "correcting" me? No, he was twisting the words that I was using to mean the exact opposite of what I was saying, you donkey-sucker."

This leaves the first interpretation, that he did in fact mean that there are no swords that the Dragonslayer can cut through. The meaning of usage of the word any being something easily picked up in grade school, we can conclude that Slartibartfast like Darkstar, did not pass.

[Cyborg Stan]

And now, for your moment of zen. (This will be quite a few hours of my life that I'll never get back.) (Obviously somewhat graphic pictures as follows):

http://home.earthlink.net/~cyborgstan/i ... rk/a11.jpg
Notice the thickness of the armor here. Gatts + Dragonslayer is obviously much stronger than this.
http://home.earthlink.net/~cyborgstan/i ... rk/a14.jpg
Even more examples of slice 'n dice. Notice how the bodies are tossed about the place by the swings.

http://home.earthlink.net/~cyborgstan/i ... 90-191.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~cyborgstan/i ... age192.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~cyborgstan/i ... age193.jpg
Another example, this time of him slicing through five armored soldiers. Note that he hit them hard enough to cause their torsos to spin rapidly. (The first guy's did 180 degrees before the swing was complete.) And this was after he fought another battle. (But what do we care? Obviously they were cannon-fodder soldiers so they have only five pound torsos with built-in invisible post-mortem spinning thrusters.)

http://home.earthlink.net/~cyborgstan/i ... k/f_66.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~cyborgstan/i ... k/f_68.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~cyborgstan/i ... k/f_69.jpg

Gatts blocks an huge shiny axe that's going faster than the human eye can see. (And the bigger it is, the faster it would have to be to go out of sight.)

http://home.earthlink.net/~cyborgstan/i ... fight1.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~cyborgstan/i ... fight4.jpg

A young Gatts fights against a rather thick-armored opponent. Not only he cuts through the helmet, but he also cuts through the shield, using a lesser sword.

http://home.earthlink.net/~cyborgstan/i ... age022.jpg

A larger picture of Gatts slicing through the horses, so we can see what's going on. We can actually see not just two, but three people cut through. And not only the people, but the horses were thrown around too : the horse on the left was hit so hard that it's hooves are pointing to air. (But what do we care? They must have been cannon fodder!)

Note that there's a difference between no limits and really high limits. While the former doesn't exist, we still can see that Gatts is obviously something beyond our experience.

[Slartibartfast]

Hm, maybe a word count limit would be nice if you want people to actually read your posts. You're quite obviously angry at people for not giving it to your favorite pet universe/character that you couldn't help posting three long posts in quick succession, filling them with ad hominems. Perhaps you should calm down and understand that Manga is not the end-all of entertainment.

[mandatory flame]Oh and you stink. You want to have Darkstar's baby.[/mandatory flame]

[Cyborg Stan]

I posted three times in succession because it's the easiest way to seperate them, considering the first was addressed to you, the second was about a completely different point addressed to everyone, and the third was a series of pictures, again with a different purpose. Putting together alot of different subjects and differing audiences in a single post tends to get confusing.

Please note that an ad hominem is where you put down the opponent in an attempt to avoid the argument. Where have I not addressed yours?

Also note that you have no addressed my arguments, but instead resorted to saying that I'm angry and somehow think that Manga is the ultimate form of entertainment. You do know what we call that, right?

[Slartibartfast]

Really? Hm, maybe you wouldn't have mentioned my name in TWO out of THREE posts, if that was true. Not to mention that saying "oh this guy is probably going to say *this* or *that* in his next post" is kinda lame too. All I can see are your desperate attempts to undermine any rational arguments against your Big Ass Sword of Fan Wanking + 1, but it tires me. You obviously missed that Suspension of Belief does not apply to Discworld (since its fucking RULES OF PHYSICS are based around literary forms) and decided to instead attack my knowledge of "syallables".

So maybe next time you'll pay attention to the other posts, maybe between breaks from all your constant wanking, m'kay? Yeah, if you could do that, that would be great.

[Cyborg Stan]

You obviously missed that Suspension of Belief does not apply to Discworld (since its fucking RULES OF PHYSICS are based around literary forms) and decided to instead attack my knowledge of "syallables".

From page two :

Alright then, let's transport all the contestants to a neutral universe. Drop all the contestants in Rohan, approximatey a month before the events of the Two Towers.

From page four :

So know, going through with the Carrot vs Gatts part. (Neutral World?)

You were saying? Now answer my arguments.

[Setzer]

There's something we didn't take into account. If Gatts uses that huge sword on the discworld, what are his odds of winning a victory when his battle style is so blatantly against the discworld usual? If Gatts has a million to one chance of victory, Carrot is doomed.

[Bill Door]

And with Carrot dead, Gatts gets killed by Detrius' seige crossbow. Game Over man, game over!

[Smiling Bandit]

Here's a hint : You would not be able to see the hole left by a Planck Length blade.

Only if it was the Plank length across its width, too.

You still need force to break bonds. (In your world, do things fall apart if you hang them over the ground?) And you still expect us to accept that it acts like a Planck Length blade on your say-so.

With Plank Blade you need practically no force to break bonds. Nothing short of Neutronium (slightly exaggerated for effect) could stop the swing. We've already determined that Carrot is extremely strong, well beyond human capability. That, combined with an extra-sharp-but-perfectly-normal sword (which by definition in the disc) can cut through anything the Rightful King needs it to) is more than enough to cut through anything. No ordinary sword, however sharp you ground it to, could cut through stone. Not without chipping anhd being swung much fast than a man could do. That's its ascribed properties by the disc.

Now, I point out that in Rohan, Gatts could not be strong enough to carry his stuff. This is perfectly true. And Carrot would not have his sword's full potential. However, in Middle Earth, Carrot is still a rightful king, whereas Gatts is still justa apsychotic warrior. Heck, byt the standards of Middle earth, he's on the bad guy's side. So even if he did kill Carrot (which is quite difficult, but possible) he'd be eventually overthrown by *another* group of small but brave heroes who cross through danger, fire, adn retribution to avenge King Carrot.

If you want to create a scenario saying that Carrot loses every power he has while Gatts has all his k3w1 ph@7 13w1 d00dz, then yes, Carrot loses. But otherwise he's damn near invulnerable to anything you through at him. In fact, simply having Gatts target him anywhere he has the benefit of the Story makes him lose. Remember, Carrot didn't die from the werewolf; Angua saved him at the last moment. And thats perfectly normal in his Story.

There's something we didn't take into account. If Gatts uses that huge sword on the discworld, what are his odds of winning a victory when his battle style is so blatantly against the discworld usual? If Gatts has a million to one chance of victory, Carrot is doomed.

Well, thats the thing. Gatts is a warrior/killer of everyone-he-meets par exelance, SO he should winthe fight were we talkign about a realm that does not protect Carrot.

In fact, Id say Carrot has just bout a million-to-one shot.

Show how strong Carrot's breastplate is. (Remember, the first thing we'd do is compare them to a known object, in this case real-life platemail. It's not that much of a stretch to say that a cut that can go through two suits of platemail will be able to go through one.) Show that it is more than four times the strength of the armors cut, because even that much would not prevent Carrot from dying.

Irrelevant; Gatts won't even be able to lift his bloody sword in a neutral universe. Although your definition of neutral apparently means giving every advantage to your favorite. In the disc, at least, carrot's breatsplate is nice and shiny and perfectly ordinary. Except its worn by Carrot. And that means in trumps any magic sword, mystic fighting technique, or random devastation.

And carrot once, in all hs adventures, fought using the Marquis de Queensbury rules. He doesn't do that again.

[Cyborg Stan]

Only if it was the Plank length across its width, too.

Incorrect. Can you see microscopic fractures? You know why we have electron microscopes? You won't be able to see a slit that's only an atom in width. And you still expect us to believe that it's Planck-Width on your say-so.

Now, quit simply saying that it's a Planck-Length blade and provide evidence. Or for that matter, STFU about Planck Lengths if you have no idea of it's implications. Who the hell are you trying to impress?

Now, I point out that in Rohan, Gatts could not be strong enough to carry his stuff. This is perfectly true.

Violation of Suspension of Disbelief. Read this.

And Carrot would not have his sword's full potential. However, in Middle Earth, Carrot is still a rightful king, whereas Gatts is still justa apsychotic warrior.

I like your ability to quantify the power of being a Rightful King, such as the time an alternative Carrot got killed by invading Klatchian forces in Jingo, as detailed by the misplaced pocket Dis-organizer. Obviously there's limits.

Heck, byt the standards of Middle earth, he's on the bad guy's side. So even if he did kill Carrot (which is quite difficult, but possible) he'd be eventually overthrown by *another* group of small but brave heroes who cross through danger, fire, adn retribution to avenge King Carrot.

Why the hell would anyone care if Carrot dies in Middle Earth? And how would people trying to avenge him save after the fact save him?

If you want to create a scenario saying that Carrot loses every power he has while Gatts has all his k3w1 ph@7 13w1 d00dz, then yes, Carrot loses.

Carrot still has his sword and his breastplate, as well as his muscles and his mind. I'd hardly call that powerless.

But otherwise he's damn near invulnerable to anything you through at him. In fact, simply having Gatts target him anywhere he has the benefit of the Story makes him lose. Remember, Carrot didn't die from the werewolf; Angua saved him at the last moment. And thats perfectly normal in his Story.

Except in a neutral universe (or even an alternative reality, see Jingo and the entire thing about the Trousers of Time), the Story has limits to it's power. That leaves observed abilities.

Irrelevant; Gatts won't even be able to lift his bloody sword in a neutral universe.

Violation of Suspension of Disbelief. We treat each event as if it occured here. Again, see point #5 here.

5. Anti-science whores think that people who apply science intend to dismiss any event which is not possible according to known science, because they seem to be too stupid to recognize that this is not what we're trying to do (see item #2).

Although your definition of neutral apparently means giving every advantage to your favorite.

Bull. They're both playing under the same rules. And under the original scenario, Gatts would've just been a psychotic bad-guy, which probably would have ensured his defeat against a Discworldian Toddler. (But you never complained about that, did you? While he might be an anti-hero, he also has his own story.)

Not to mention that you can't have an objective result from subjective rules, which if anything the Story would be. Was the alternative universe version of Carrot protected when he was fighting off the invading Al-Khali army in Jingo?

In the disc, at least, carrot's breatsplate is nice and shiny and perfectly ordinary. Except its worn by Carrot. And that means in trumps any magic sword, mystic fighting technique, or random devastation.

This ain't the disc. And you're applying a no-limits fallacy. Would it protect him from a nuclear bomb?

And carrot once, in all hs adventures, fought using the Marquis de Queensbury rules. He doesn't do that again.

How dirty does he fight? Can he kill consiously kill a fellow man without flinching? If not, then Gatts still has the mental advantage. (Even without turning him into an arbitary terminator.)

[SirNitram]

Time to remind everyone of the basics of debating. We will have none of that asinine bullshit of one side's powers working while the other doesn't. Gatts can wield his penis compensator, Carrot has his Story.


And the Story 'The rightful king kicks the ass of a psychotic with a big sword' is pretty well known.

[SirNitram]

Just for S&G's..

Carrot has survived something like a major nuclear strike. Spoilers for The Last Hero follow.

The Silver Horde get ahold of some Agatean explosives which are so powerful they'll kill everyone in ten miles of the blast. Carrot talks them out of their plan to use it against the Gods, but they had already started the fuse. The Silver Horde then proceeded to haul their collective asses down Dunimanifesten with the explosive.. Getting just far enough away.

This can, however, be attributed to the fact that over a half-dozen extremely powerful Heros were all in the situation, and thus the Story was strengthened. But I thought that'd be an amusing reply to 'does Carrot's breastplate protect him from a nuclear bomb?'.

[Cyborg Stan]

Time to remind everyone of the basics of debating. We will have none of that asinine bullshit of one side's powers working while the other doesn't. Gatts can wield his penis compensator, Carrot has his Story.

And the Story 'The rightful king kicks the ass of a psychotic with a big sword' is pretty well known.

Is it stronger or weaker than the Story of a Rightful King and His Friends Fighting Off the Evil Foreign Invaders?

[SirNitram]

Time to remind everyone of the basics of debating. We will have none of that asinine bullshit of one side's powers working while the other doesn't. Gatts can wield his penis compensator, Carrot has his Story.

And the Story 'The rightful king kicks the ass of a psychotic with a big sword' is pretty well known.

Is it stronger or weaker than the Story of a Rightful King and His Friends Fighting Off the Evil Foreign Invaders?

No, but the story about the Righteous Warriors Invading A Heathen Land is a damn potent story. Remember the quote I posted: The best way to beat a story is to find a better one. Jingo was a case of two pretty evenly matched ones, pushed one way or another by Vimes actions.

[Cyborg Stan]

Errrr..... How are you deciding which story is stronger?

[SirNitram]

Errrr..... How are you deciding which story is stronger?

I'm sort of generalizing by what Discworld has shown. As one might expect, it's a bit hard. That'd be why I pointed out Discworld is bad for vs. arguments.

[Cyborg Stan]

Ugh. Is there an objective (yeah, right) way of determining a stronger Story? Because if it is subjective process, then you can't treat the results like an objective conclusion.

Not that I don't mind a subjective match if treated as such. However, I get the increasing impression that by using Discworld Story Rules, the only real way to make an even remotely meaningful result out of it would be to actually write out how it plays in prose. (Simply declaring that it will make a better Story seems a bit..... well, a sentence or two isn't really a story.)

[SirNitram]

Ugh. Is there an objective (yeah, right) way of determining a stronger Story? Because if it is subjective process, then you can't treat the results like an objective conclusion.

Not that I don't mind a subjective match if treated as such. However, I get the increasing impression that by using Discworld Story Rules, the only real way to make an even remotely meaningful result out of it would be to actually write out how it plays in prose. (Simply declaring that it will make a better Story seems a bit..... well, a sentence or two isn't really a story.)

I can't think of a true objective process. Yes, Discworld is dominated by a subjective force. This isn't fan theory; this is stated canon. This is precisely why I dislike such vs. setups.

[Smiling Bandit]

Incorrect. Can you see microscopic fractures? You know why we have electron microscopes? You won't be able to see a slit that's only an atom in width. And you still expect us to believe that it's Planck-Width on your say-so.

Irrelevcant; once the edge has been severed, without friction there's nothing but gravity that would hold it together. So the sword can cut through any matter like butter.

Now, quit simply saying that it's a Planck-Length blade and provide evidence. Or for that matter, STFU about Planck Lengths if you have no idea of it's implications. Who the hell are you trying to impress?

I'm not trying to impress anyone. The sword does what the Rightful King needs it to; it cuts things. It doesn't need magic, because it has a Story, too. And its story is all about cutting things. Soft things, hard things, whatever it needs to to fulfill Carrot's Story.

I like your ability to quantify the power of being a Rightful King, such as the time an alternative Carrot got killed by invading Klatchian forces in Jingo, as detailed by the misplaced pocket Dis-organizer. Obviously there's limits.

No, the Story has limits. Or rather, a Story is not absolutely set. There are a lot of tales about Righteous Kings who died, too, y'know.

Sadly for the alternate Carrot-that-never-was, one of the greatest stories involves Kings who defend their realms from vicious invaders, finally dying after taking a dozen men down with them. The Story doesn't make him invulnerable, but damned close to it. There are simply some things that *cannot* kill him. And in this case, gatts most certainly doesn't fit into that role; ergo he cannot kill Carrot.

[LadyTevar]

No, the Story has limits. Or rather, a Story is not absolutely set. There are a lot of tales about Righteous Kings who died, too, y'know.

Sadly for the alternate Carrot-that-never-was, one of the greatest stories involves Kings who defend their realms from vicious invaders, finally dying after taking a dozen men down with them. The Story doesn't make him invulnerable, but damned close to it. There are simply some things that *cannot* kill him. And in this case, gatts most certainly doesn't fit into that role; ergo he cannot kill Carrot.

A good example of this is Boromir from LoTR. Call it the 'Boromir Syndrome', where you die surrounded by dozens, if not scores, of your foes before you finally give in and let those damn arrows kill you.
So, yes, the Carrot-that-never-was would have probably fallen in a similar scenario.

[Smiling Bandit]

Boromir is a particularly good example, because he was next in line for the Stewardship of Gondor. Not quite as powerful as a Rightful King, but close.