Gatts(Berserk)is sent to Discworld..

[Cosmic Average]

Just of effortlessly cutting through material that happened to come into contact with it. Of course, that's not cutting a sword, so you're not going to accept it.

He THREW the sword. That's not exactly effortlessly.

And since he's never demonstrated such an ability again, isn't there a possibiliy that such an incident was merely a fluke? Maybe the stonecolumn was flawed or badly weathered.

[LadyTevar]

I'm still waiting for why we should discard a plainly visible demonstration of Carrot's sword's sharpness. Other than the fact it closes this debate.

I'm still waiting why we should discard the multiple examples of Gutts slicing through his opponents, as well as their swords

Slicing through your opponents is easy, Cohan and the Silver Horde do that all the time. Breaking swords isn't that hard, either, just hit it right.

Putting your sword through a body and the stone pillar behind, without scratching the sword? THAT is hard.

Hell... Connor MacLeod's samuri sword from Highlander (The Original Movie) couldn't do that without chipping! And Carrot wasn't using half the swing Connor did when he took the Pole's head in the parking building!

[SirNitram]

Just of effortlessly cutting through material that happened to come into contact with it. Of course, that's not cutting a sword, so you're not going to accept it.

He THREW the sword. That's not exactly effortlessly.

And it just happened to not expend any of the power behind it on the body that it peirced first? My, that would make the blade even sharper.

And since he's never demonstrated such an ability again, isn't there a possibiliy that such an incident was merely a fluke? Maybe the stonecolumn was flawed or badly weathered.

Right. A stone pillar that is partially supporting what, IIRC, was a city street, is going to be incredibly weak. How does weak stone excuse a sword simply entering the stone with no resistance? Oh right, it doesn't. Your grasp of what you are trying to debate is becoming more clear, and it's not exactly an iron grip.

[Cosmic Average]

Slicing through your opponents is easy, Cohan and the Silver Horde do that all the time. Breaking swords isn't that hard, either, just hit it right.

Have they ever done it to multiple opponents in one swing?

Hell... Connor MacLeod's samuri sword from Highlander (The Original Movie) couldn't do that without chipping! And Carrot wasn't using half the swing Connor did when he took the Pole's head in the parking building!

I'll have to reread it. Was it in Guards! Guards!i?

[Jawawithagun]

Slicing through your opponents is easy, Cohan and the Silver Horde do that all the time. Breaking swords isn't that hard, either, just hit it right.

Have they ever done it to multiple opponents in one swing?

It's all in the job description! He is a hero, after all

[SirNitram]

Hell... Connor MacLeod's samuri sword from Highlander (The Original Movie) couldn't do that without chipping! And Carrot wasn't using half the swing Connor did when he took the Pole's head in the parking building!

I'll have to reread it. Was it in Guards! Guards!i?

The Goggles. They do nothing.

[LadyTevar]

Slicing through your opponents is easy, Cohan and the Silver Horde do that all the time. Breaking swords isn't that hard, either, just hit it right.

Have they ever done it to multiple opponents in one swing?

Go re-read The Last Hero. In it the Silver Horde discuss everything that they killed to get to the top of Cori Celesti. Also, re-read Interesting Times, especially the part where they are fighting the ninja.

Hell... Connor MacLeod's samuri sword from Highlander (The Original Movie) couldn't do that without chipping! And Carrot wasn't using half the swing Connor did when he took the Pole's head in the parking building!

I'll have to reread it. Was it in Guards! Guards!i?

In case this confused you.. I was comparing Connor MacLeod in the movie Highlander to Captain Carrot of Discworld.
In the opening of the movie, Connor takes the head of 'the Pole' (Polish man), after a fight inside the Madison Square Gardens parking garage. A sweeping strike of his sword buries it into a concrete support pillar, and the sword is chipped.
NOW compare that to the scene in Men-At-Arms, where Carrot kills the HeadAssassin by pinning his body to the stone support pillar in the Patrician's chambers. The sword, iirc, was to the hilt in the man's body... which means at least 2ft of sword was in the pillar, and removed without a chip or ding upon it.

NOW.... since Concrete is a softer material than Stone, especially stone used to build grand palaces... if a katana blade folded thousands of times chips on concrete, but a seemingly normal Medival sword does not chip when thrust into stone...
I'd *think* the Medieval Sword is an ItsyBitsy bit *STRONGER*... wouldn't you?

[Cosmic Average]

Go re-read The Last Hero. In it the Silver Horde discuss everything that they killed to get to the top of Cori Celesti. Also, re-read Interesting Times, especially the part where they are fighting the ninja.

In case this confused you.. I was comparing Connor MacLeod in the movie Highlander to Captain Carrot of Discworld.
In the opening of the movie, Connor takes the head of 'the Pole' (Polish man), after a fight inside the Madison Square Gardens parking garage. A sweeping strike of his sword buries it into a concrete support pillar, and the sword is chipped.
NOW compare that to the scene in Men-At-Arms, where Carrot kills the HeadAssassin by pinning his body to the stone support pillar in the Patrician's chambers. The sword, iirc, was to the hilt in the man's body... which means at least 2ft of sword was in the pillar, and removed without a chip or ding upon it.

NOW.... since Concrete is a softer material than Stone, especially stone used to build grand palaces... if a katana blade folded thousands of times chips on concrete, but a seemingly normal Medival sword does not chip when thrust into stone...
I'd *think* the Medieval Sword is an ItsyBitsy bit *STRONGER*... wouldn't you?

I fully understood that part, but.. You're using a fictional movie to make a case for why Carrot's sword would be able to cut through Gatts sword.

[SirNitram]

While Below Average continues to fail to get the point, I'll conclude my participation. It has been shown that Gatts has no chance against a full-power Discworldian, because he is precisely the wrong sort to send up against them. If we massively cripple the character by removing them from the Stories he has a chance, but Bringing Down The Cosmic Average is not making much leeway in proving this because he apparently has an allergy to quantifying things.

[Cosmic Average]

While Below Average continues to fail to get the point, I'll conclude my participation. It has been shown that Gatts has no chance against a full-power Discworldian, because he is precisely the wrong sort to send up against them. If we massively cripple the character by removing them from the Stories he has a chance, but Bringing Down The Cosmic Average is not making much leeway in proving this because he apparently has an allergy to quantifying things.

Very original.

[SirNitram]

While Below Average continues to fail to get the point, I'll conclude my participation. It has been shown that Gatts has no chance against a full-power Discworldian, because he is precisely the wrong sort to send up against them. If we massively cripple the character by removing them from the Stories he has a chance, but Bringing Down The Cosmic Average is not making much leeway in proving this because he apparently has an allergy to quantifying things.

Very original.

Thank you. If you have an interest in playing by the rules of this forum and quantifying Gatts' abilities, perhaps we'll finish this debate. Then again, you appear to either have no wish to, or no ability to.

[LadyTevar]

(snip)
NOW.... since Concrete is a softer material than Stone, especially stone used to build grand palaces... if a katana blade folded thousands of times chips on concrete, but a seemingly normal Medival sword does not chip when thrust into stone...
I'd *think* the Medieval Sword is an ItsyBitsy bit *STRONGER*... wouldn't you?

I fully understood that part, but.. You're using a fictional movie to make a case for why Carrot's sword would be able to cut through Gatts sword.

Considering that both Gatts and Carrot are also Fictional... I consider it extremely appropiate.

Unless you are like my 2yr old nephew who thinks Mickey Mouse lives in the TV.....

[Cyborg Stan]

Thank you. If you have an interest in playing by the rules of this forum and quantifying Gatts' abilities, perhaps we'll finish this debate. Then again, you appear to either have no wish to, or no ability to.

For someone that started out by using literary devices and never provided a number of your own, you have no right to criticize.

The three pictures provided may have not been quantified, but they provide a thousand times the information from an event in text that we haven't seen the full quote of.

So know, going through with the Carrot vs Gatts part. (Neutral World?)

First off : Stabbing a sword through stone requires great strength (Why you argue otherwise is beyond me, because a sword is dependant on it's wielder. Carrot's sword isn't going to fight for him.) no matter how sharp it is. If it makes a hole it just means that there's alot of pressure from the very tip of it. (Nails have a sharp point but are round in cross section. Where's the evidence of the sharpness of the edge, which is what would be cutting another blade.) However, the blade will still have to move aside/crush/etc the rock it displaces. (Would making nails sharper and frictionless allow them to drop into wood as it were water?)

Secondly : Carrot being defeated by a werewolf. Now, normally this wouldn't say anything about Carrot's strength, it just means that the werewolf was stronger. However, if he was using gentlemenly rules of combat in a life-or-death fight, this definately shows that Carrot has a major disadvantage in terms of attitude and training. From the two pictures alone, we see Gatts slicing and dicing his own fellow humans - apparently he doesn't have a problem.

Thirdly : While I don't feel like number crunching, we see Gatts slicing through a human, including the armor. Since Carrot is another (if large) human with no indications of heavier armor (Consider the armor used was plate, it would be hard to find better.), we'd more or less expect to see the same results. On top of that, we also see him slicing through a sword, we'd expect to see at least similar results vs the Perfectly Ordinary Sword (tm) (Is it going to stop being a Perfectly Ordinary Sword just in time to be able to resist the Dragonslayer?)

Fourthly : Gatt's sword has greater range, (Unless if Perfectly Ordinary Swords are somehow larger, which is doubtful.) so we'd expect him to use it - if we see sword on sword contact, it would be Gatts swinging. Do we really want the Perfectly Ordinary Sword to cut through the Dragonslayer, leaving a fast moving, massive, sharp chunk of metal flying at Carrot?

[SirNitram]

Thank you. If you have an interest in playing by the rules of this forum and quantifying Gatts' abilities, perhaps we'll finish this debate. Then again, you appear to either have no wish to, or no ability to.

For someone that started out by using literary devices and never provided a number of your own, you have no right to criticize.

Except that in Discworld these literary devices take the place of physics, see The Science Of Discworld.

[Cyborg Stan]

1 ) Directing me to a book that I don't have and don't have access to saying that it will answer my questions is hardly helpful.

2 ) The scenario went to a neutral world since page two because of said rules.

[SirNitram]

Yes, a move I've come to regret. It looks quite like Carrot would lose, in retrospect, if removed from the Disc, but that removing him from the Disc is much like removing a Jedi from the Force. As for the inevitability of stories, I'll ramble off the quotes from on top of my desk..

Witches Abroad: "Granny Weatherwax wouldn't know what a pattern of quantum inevitability was if it was eating her supper. [...] She just knew there were things that happened continually in human history, like three dimensional cliches. Stories." pg 283.

"Coiled as it was around the turtle-shaped spacetime known as the Discworld, the Story shook. One broken end flapped loose and flailed through the night, looking for any sequence to feed on" pg 291, after Granny snafu's the most obvious of the layers of story overruning Genua.

The Last Hero: "They looked at Carrot's sword. It was short, sharp and plain. It was a working sword. It had no runes on it. It had no magic gleam. [...] One simple sword in the hands of a truly brave man could cut through a magical sword like a cruet." pg 143. I would love to see someone claim a sword that big held like a human is not in some way supernatural.

Finally, a source which may incite a riot but I will accept because it's written by Terry Prachett himself. The RPG book: "Narrative Causality: This is the power of stories, perhaps the greatest power of all. People want, and need, events to follow certain courses, and come to proper resolutions. [...] On the Disc, by a process of feedback one may deduce from the other two principles[Metaphor and Belief, and Life Force], this has become a powerful force indeed. [...] In short, you can beat the power of stories with a better story." There's even a discussion of the rule that causes people carrying wide loads(Particularly glass sheets) to always interrupt a chase, and the Million To One Rule, which is repeated over and over in the books as 'Million to one odds crop up nine times out of ten'(Less often repeated is the warning: 999,998 to one odds are pretty assuredly fatal, as are 1,000,003 to one).

[Cosmic Average]

Considering that both Gatts and Carrot are also Fictional... I consider it extremely appropiate.

And in this other movie I saw, swords can cut stone easy because they're steel! Wheee!

And in Army of Darkness, you can fire shotguns without reloading!

Do you see now what I'm trying to get across?

[Cyborg Stan]

Hm...... thanks about the Narrative/Belief Laws That Govern Discworld, and the quotes for it.

As for Gatts' sword..... I suppose you could take my word for it that the pictures provided actually don't do it justice? I'd estimate that it's over 150 kilograms.

[SirNitram]

Hm...... thanks about the Narrative/Belief Laws That Govern Discworld, and the quotes for it.

As for Gatts' sword..... I suppose you could take my word for it that the pictures provided actually don't do it justice? I'd estimate that it's over 150 kilograms.

..............................

Ladies and gentlemen, the most ridiculously wankish penis compensator in Fantasy.

[ShinjiGohan]

Since I'm Shinji Ikaro from CBR who originally posted pics that we used, I suppose I'll post some more pics.

however since I have to goto sleep and get up for work in 5 and a half hours, I'll have to do it tomorrow.

Though lets put this in perspective. Gatts received a would should be a normal sword, though it was the blacksmiths highest quality (with the exception of the Dragonslayer). Upon receiving it, he quickly got into a fight against an Apostle of the God Hand. Upon a few swings, this what was supposed to be the blacksmiths greatest sword cracked, and Gatsu needed a new sword. While koncked back he saw the Dragon Slayer, and picked it up with ease, and easily cut through part of the roof of the stone layered house and cut the Apostle of the God Hand in half.

Though if IIRC Gatsu started fighting in wars when he was 9 or even younger. He was raped by a fellow soldier, and coldly killed his rapier during another battle not long after,

He has been described as having inhuman reflexes and strength. And side from him easily dodging sleep ropes, an henchmen of an apostle who swung a sword as quickly as a whip, as well as another apostile of the god hand which was supposed to break the mach 1 speed barrier. That had his resilence to pain and the will power to go on.

I'll try to post links to these tomorrow.

[Smiling Bandit]

First off : Stabbing a sword through stone requires great strength (Why you argue otherwise is beyond me, because a sword is dependant on it's wielder. Carrot's sword isn't going to fight for him.) no matter how sharp it is. If it makes a hole it just means that there's alot of pressure from the very tip of it. (Nails have a sharp point but are round in cross section. Where's the evidence of the sharpness of the edge, which is what would be cutting another blade.) However, the blade will still have to move aside/crush/etc the rock it displaces. (Would making nails sharper and frictionless allow them to drop into wood as it were water?)

Actually, no. If something is awesomely sharp and frictionless enough, it will go through anything like water. Carrot's blade seems to act like a frictionless arbitrary Plank-Length blade. In other words, it seems to cut anything he needs it to when he needs it to. I'm taking a guess here, but if your actually through the sword hard enough to punch clear through the stone, it would not display the properties Carrot's sword did. The sword would chip and snap, and the stone would be crushed out of the way. The sword would most emphatically *not* go through it like hot butter.

Secondly : Carrot being defeated by a werewolf. Now, normally this wouldn't say anything about Carrot's strength, it just means that the werewolf was stronger. However, if he was using gentlemenly rules of combat in a life-or-death fight, this definately shows that Carrot has a major disadvantage in terms of attitude and training. From the two pictures alone, we see Gatts slicing and dicing his own fellow humans - apparently he doesn't have a problem.

Well, Carrot only did that once, and they promptly knocked some into him. Apparently, he read the Marquis of Queensbury's book on proper way of fighting. Carrot takes things a little literally.

Thirdly : While I don't feel like number crunching, we see Gatts slicing through a human, including the armor. Since Carrot is another (if large) human with no indications of heavier armor (Consider the armor used was plate, it would be hard to find better.), we'd more or less expect to see the same results. On top of that, we also see him slicing through a sword, we'd expect to see at least similar results vs the Perfectly Ordinary Sword (tm) (Is it going to stop being a Perfectly Ordinary Sword just in time to be able to resist the Dragonslayer?)

Given the properties of Carrot's sword, I expect Gatt's swing would take his own sword off halfway down. If you remove Carrot from the disc (cheating if I ever saw it) he would probably die if cut in half way a giant sword. But maybe not. He has a real shiny breastplate, too.

Fourthly : Gatt's sword has greater range, (Unless if Perfectly Ordinary Swords are somehow larger, which is doubtful.) so we'd expect him to use it - if we see sword on sword contact, it would be Gatts swinging. Do we really want the Perfectly Ordinary Sword to cut through the Dragonslayer, leaving a fast moving, massive, sharp chunk of metal flying at Carrot?

Given the momentum behind a swing, I should think the Dragonslayer half will get shot off through the air behind Carrot. But that assumes Carrot is standing still, too.

[Slartibartfast]

Anyone else is seeing the no-limits fallacy about "cutting thru swords and armor"? Just because it has cut thru SOME swords and armor (those belonging to nameless ensigns... I mean soldiers) doesn't mean it can cut thru any. What if you have TWO gatts with swords, would they cut each other simultaneously? It's obvious that the nameless soldiers have crappy equipment.

[LadyTevar]

Considering that both Gatts and Carrot are also Fictional... I consider it extremely appropiate.

And in this other movie I saw, swords can cut stone easy because they're steel! Wheee!

And in Army of Darkness, you can fire shotguns without reloading!

Do you see now what I'm trying to get across?

Oh yes, you just proved that what controls what a character can and can't do is The STORY.

Which is what DiscWorld is based on.

[Cyborg Stan]

Actually, no. If something is awesomely sharp and frictionless enough, it will go through anything like water.

Despite the requirement there will still need to be enough force to displace the mass of the object? A lightsabre can be 'sharper than sharp' so to speak because the blade itself tears apart things. A plain sword would have to ultimately rely on strength from the user.

Carrot's blade seems to act like a frictionless arbitrary Plank-Length blade. In other words, it seems to cut anything he needs it to when he needs it to.

Evidence?

I'm taking a guess here, but if your actually through the sword hard enough to punch clear through the stone, it would not display the properties Carrot's sword did. The sword would chip and snap, and the stone would be crushed out of the way. The sword would most emphatically *not* go through it like hot butter.

The fact that the sword did not chip and snap shows that it's a rather strudy sword. The fact there's a hole indicates that it did somehow displace the stone, unless if you wish to argue that it somehow made the stone disappear.

This isn't really revalent because the sharpness of the point isn't really in dispute, we're looking at the sharpness along the edge. The fact that it could stick inside the body and the pillar indicates that it's not a frictionless, Planck-Length blade.

Well, Carrot only did that once, and they promptly knocked some into him. Apparently, he read the Marquis of Queensbury's book on proper way of fighting. Carrot takes things a little literally.

What are the other indications of his mindset/training while he fought in the series?

Given the properties of Carrot's sword, I expect Gatt's swing would take his own sword off halfway down. If you remove Carrot from the disc (cheating if I ever saw it) he would probably die if cut in half way a giant sword. But maybe not. He has a real shiny breastplate, too. ;)

You probably phrased this a bit oddly, since I don't think even a shiny breastplate can prevent his death if he was cut in half.

Given the momentum behind a swing, I should think the Dragonslayer half will get shot off through the air behind Carrot. But that assumes Carrot is standing still, too.

Hm..... at the very least, if Carrot fought against other swordsmen, he would probably dodge if his sword went clean through the others.

[Cyborg Stan]

Stupid server errors......

Anyone else is seeing the no-limits fallacy about "cutting thru swords and armor"?

Actually yes, since the term 'Frictionless Planck-Length Blade' came up. I've also seen assertions that Carrot's sword will effortlessly go through the Dragonslayer, despite being thicker and wider than any other blade it went up against. (Not to mention that the chance of cutting goes down alot with a slight difference in angle.) Thanks for bringing it up.

Just because it has cut thru SOME swords and armor (those belonging to nameless ensigns... I mean soldiers) doesn't mean it can cut thru any. What if you have TWO gatts with swords, would they cut each other simultaneously? It's obvious that the nameless soldiers have crappy equipment.

Get real. Indication that the armor is sooo crappy that a blow that not only penetrates it, but slices apart the armor going the width of the torso, along with the armor on the arm as well, would be blocked by a shiny breastplate? Indication that in the other picture of Gatts cutting apart two armored men on horseback and the two horses, that the armor there was crappy, and the horses' bodies were made out of soft cheese?