Dub or Sub, which one indeed.

Symmetry · Post by **Symmetry** » 2003-10-29 11:27am

Durran Korr wrote:Uh oh. You used "Japanese Anime" instead of merely "anime." Prepare to have the wrath of anal fanboys upon you.

Especially since, I believe, Vampire D: Bloodlust was made in the US. <Sweatdrop>

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-10-29 11:34am

Symmetry wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:Uh oh. You used "Japanese Anime" instead of merely "anime." Prepare to have the wrath of anal fanboys upon you.
Especially since, I believe, Vampire D: Bloodlust was made in the US. <Sweatdrop>

No, it was made in Japan by Japanese companies.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-10-29 11:38am

Check that.

While Urban Vision was invovled in the production of VHD: Bloodlust, it was still primarily a Japanese production, involving companies like Satelight, MOVIC, and Studio Madhouse...

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2003-10-29 02:22pm

Although IIRC, Bloodlust was originally done for the english dub.

And the only reason we hate the word "Japanimation" Is because it sounds stupid.

Spirited Away
Princess Mononoke
Ah! My Goddess
VHD: Bloodlust.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-10-29 02:34pm

It was, and that's why Bloodlust is so fun to bring up when you're arguing with radical anti-dub fanatics.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-10-29 02:46pm

I don't really see how, as English is the language that Bloodlust was recorded in, and the problem that the anti-dub crowd have with dubs is the whole alteration issue.

That is, that's how it is with the smart ones. I don't know about the idiots that would honestly think that BL was originally recorded in Japanese and released in the US as a dub only...

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-10-29 03:31pm

The alteration argument always amuses me, as well. Apparently pasting yellow text over the bottom of a picture doesn't involve altering it.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-10-29 03:35pm

Textual translation is often more accurate than a translated dub script, as it is not under such restrictions as lip-synching and time contraints.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-10-29 03:42pm

True, and the only anti-dub argument which holds anything resembling a grain of truth. Still, sub translation are far from perfect as well; dialogue has to be cut often in order to be readable in the time available.

In some cases, however, there are things that can't be communicated to the audience at all through a sub, but can be communicated quite well through a dub.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-10-29 03:44pm

Then there are translation notes. Those are just golden. More anime DVDs should have them, in my opinion.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-29 03:46pm

Durran Korr wrote:True, and the only anti-dub argument which holds anything resembling a grain of truth. Still, sub translation are far from perfect as well; dialogue has to be cut often in order to be readable in the time available.

In some cases, however, there are things that can't be communicated to the audience at all through a sub, but can be communicated quite well through a dub.

Here's a better anti-dub argument for ya: Dubs are often shoddily done and do not reflect the subtleness of the original recordings. If you want to know what I mean, try watching an epsiode of Slayers subbed, then dubbed and tell me what you think.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-10-29 03:48pm

Or Eva.

Then there's the definative anti-dub example:

Love Hina.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-10-29 03:51pm

Oh, and don't use Cowboy Bebop, FLCL, or the like as examples of good dubs. We all know that for every single fantastic dub, there are at least ten to fifteen dubs that range from average to poor.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-10-29 03:53pm

Of course, it doesn't matter alot of the time whether the words don't sync with the mouths of the characters, since anime mouths aren't even close to anatomically correct in most cases and don't have correct mouth movements either.

Besides, does it really matter if the words and the mouth don't always start and end at the same time? Watch Snow White (at least the classic version, I don't know if they fixed this in the re-release). The dubbing is horrible in it and many times what the characters are saying and how the mouth is moving barely have anything to do with each other (though granted, the characters that without distorted features like the Dwarves did at least have anatomically correct jaws). Yet it's still a classic and beloved movie for nearly 70 years. The dismal sound quality and poor dubbing didn't change anyones opinion of it, except for a few AV nerds who need to be slapped. Why should poor synching change anything about whether the movie is decent or not? It doesn't make the movie or show unwatchable, unless it's really terrible (which voices out of synch by a full half second like the infamous Hong Kong bootleg of Harry Potter I bought at a con where Dumbledore was saying Harry's lines at the end). I just don't see what the issue is.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-10-29 03:57pm

Snow White was prescored, as are all of Disney's films and most American cartoons.

I'll have to check the DVD myself this weekend, but I don't remember the synchonisation being very far off.

But keep in mind that as you said, the film was made in the 30s.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-10-29 04:11pm

Then there are translation notes. Those are just golden. More anime DVDs should have them, in my opinion.

Translation notes only go so far. Excel Saga for example; the Excel character is meant to be grating, incoherent, and difficult to understand, something that is lost on people who view the sub, because they've got yellow lines right under her telling them what she's saying. Not so in the dub. Also, the more commonly-cited example of Tenchi Muyo - Ayeka speaks with a very elegant dialect of Japanese in the original to communicate her nobility, something that is lost on anyone who doesn't understand Japanese. But in the dub, the actress speaks with a delightful pomposity, which communicates the noble aspect of the Ayeka character just as well. And don't say translation notes saying "Ayeka speaks with a noble accent" would be just as good as actually having her speak with a noble accent in a way that English-speaking viewers could understand, because it wouldn't be.

Here's a better anti-dub argument for ya: Dubs are often shoddily done and do not reflect the subtleness of the original recordings. If you want to know what I mean, try watching an epsiode of Slayers subbed, then dubbed and tell me what you think.

That's not an anti-dub argument. That's an anti-shitty dub argument. And an outdated one, too; 5-10 years ago you could say that and you'd be telling the truth, because anime dubs nearly without exception sucked. Not so these days, it's quite uncommon to get a truly poor dub like you would get in the old days. And not at all uncommon to get a dub of reasonably decent quality.

Or Eva.

The End of Evangelion is a nightmare to try and watch subbed.

Oh, and don't use Cowboy Bebop, FLCL, or the like as examples of good dubs. We all know that for every single fantastic dub, there are at least ten to fifteen dubs that range from average to poor.

I would put the number at more like 3-5. Like I said, these days, it's rare to get a poor dub, with most dubs being perfectly listenable. And that doesn't impugn dubbed anime; for every truly great movie, there are at least 3-5 movies that range from average to poor, as well. That's just the law of Sturgeon at work.

There's also the fact that you don't really have anything to compare the dubs against unless you speak Japanese. You can't really judge the quality of acting in a language you don't speak and understand.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2003-10-29 04:23pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Oh, and don't use Cowboy Bebop, FLCL, or the like as examples of good dubs. We all know that for every single fantastic dub, there are at least ten to fifteen dubs that range from average to poor.

For once, I have to agree with Sapnky. There have been some good dubs (EVA), but then there have also so many horribly done dubs (Pokemon - as much as I hate to use the example - and Sailor Moon).

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2003-10-29 04:36pm

Oops. sorry about mispelling your name Spanky.[/img]

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-29 04:40pm

Durran Korr wrote: There's also the fact that you don't really have anything to compare the dubs against unless you speak Japanese. You can't really judge the quality of acting in a language you don't speak and understand.

Wrong. I can totally appreciate the acting of Setsuko from Grave of the Fireflies even though I don't understand the language. She has all the subtlties to her voice of an actual four year old (which she was) and they replaced her with an adult for the dub.

You want something better? Go watch Slayers. I'm not kidding, the character of Lina Inverse is only funny because of the WAY she says things, not what she is actually saying. If you listen to the dub, all the jokes fall flat and Lina ceases to strike that perfect balance between funny and annoying and simply becomes annoying.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-10-29 04:59pm

Wrong. I can totally appreciate the acting of Setsuko from Grave of the Fireflies even though I don't understand the language. She has all the subtlties to her voice of an actual four year old (which she was) and they replaced her with an adult for the dub.

No, you can't. There are all sorts of things which are lost on you if you don't speak the language; nuance, timing, enunciation, pronunciation, articulation all have to be done properly in order to deliver a good line, and if you don't understand the language you are not qualified to analyze anything other than the emoting of the actors, which isn't much of an accomplishment; anyone can, emote, I can emote. But I can't act.

You want something better? Go watch Slayers. I'm not kidding, the character of Lina Inverse is only funny because of the WAY she says things, not what she is actually saying. If you listen to the dub, all the jokes fall flat and Lina ceases to strike that perfect balance between funny and annoying and simply becomes annoying.

If it's a shitty dub, don't watch it. There are several series/films that I watch subbed because I don't care for the dub, for whatever reason.

Slayers could be the worst dub in the world and it wouldn't make a difference; by the same logic, I could point out Battlefield Earth and use it as an indictment of American cinema.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-29 06:16pm

Durran Korr wrote: No, you can't. There are all sorts of things which are lost on you if you don't speak the language; nuance, timing, enunciation, pronunciation, articulation all have to be done properly in order to deliver a good line, and if you don't understand the language you are not qualified to analyze anything other than the emoting of the actors, which isn't much of an accomplishment; anyone can, emote, I can emote. But I can't act.

I don't claim to catch everything, but I can detect genuine (or extremely well acted) emotion in someone's voice. Whether or not I am "qualified" is irrelevent; it sounds more real to me. And although I do not speak Japanese, I have picked up enough from anime to know what certain enunciations and subtlties for certain words mean (fansubs help GREATLY with this).

If it's a shitty dub, don't watch it. There are several series/films that I watch subbed because I don't care for the dub, for whatever reason.

Slayers could be the worst dub in the world and it wouldn't make a difference; by the same logic, I could point out Battlefield Earth and use it as an indictment of American cinema.

You are missing my point. I am not saying that the dub actors CAN'T do a good job (which is untrue, because they can and do in certain cases) but that they don't spend nearly as much on the dubbings in America unless it is being marketed as a more mainstream show (like Cowboy Bebop). If it is just a direct-to-DVD release the distribution companies don't bother with a great dubbing since most of the otakus that know the differance won't be watching it anyways.

It's too bad because I really LIKE watching dubs when they are done well (Lain, Cowboy Bebop, Lodoss War) since it gives my eyes the ability to concentrate on the action.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-10-29 06:19pm

By translation notes, Duran, I meants things like what's in the booklets with the FLCL DVDs and such. Things that explain cultural references, puns, superstitions and the like.

Duran, keep in mind that there probably are other people who can tell if someone speaking a language they can't speak is a good actor. Just becaue maybe you can't doesn't mean that others can't either. I can judge French acting just fine even though I don't speak French. I can judge acting on it's own without language being a barrier.

Nor do I have a problem with subtitles, due to how fast I can read.

EoE subbed is not a problem either, except in the scene with the Prime Minister, but only because Manga fucked up the subtitle transition order for the first five seconds or so.

Oh, and JME2: I personally cannot stand Eva's dub. To me it is mediocre at best.

I can't really go and to a point by point, so I'll just sum up with this: Just because you can't doesn't mean that others can't either.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-10-29 06:24pm

Spanky I'm curious--you've mentioned in the past your dislike of the Eva dub and, while I agree its not the best, I'm curious as to who you find particularly objectionable. The only one I remember hating was Shinji (but then, I didn't much care for him anyways) but I really liked Gendo Ikari and Ritsuko.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-10-29 06:50pm

Spike Spencer as Shinji sounds too sarcastic in the first few episodes, but he turns out okay soon enough. His screaming is also subpar when compared to Megumi Ogata's.

Asuka sounds like she's 25 while Misato sounds like she's 15 and a little too whiny.

Ritsuko is okay, but suffers from Over-Acting Syndrome later in the series.

Rei/Yui are pretty good, but Megumi Hayashibara is just so much better. It's just the sound of her voice, honestly.

Suzuhara was alright, but his accent and sound of his Japanese voice just had a better fit.

Keel Lorenz (and to a lesser extent, the rest of the HCP/SEELE) totally looses his aura of authority. In the dub he's just the threatening bossguy, while in Japanese it's like he's some kind of God.

Kaji is just attrocious. While he was extremely casual and occasionally sarcastic in Japanese, in the dub virtually everything he says comes out sounding so forced and soaking in sarcasm that he's almost unbearable.

Gendo and Fuyutsuki's VAs should have switched roles. Like Asuka and Misato, one sounds too old and the other too young.

Maya's English VA has a voice that is simply way too deep to accurately match her character, not to mention her physical appearance. It's so different that a few times it actually alters her character.

Kaworu, to be blunt, sounds like a fairy (IIRC, he even had a slight lisp). While he was rather effeminate in Japanese, he at least didn't sound like a stereotypical flaming homosexual.

And a major annoyance of mine was that they changed or removed the sounds made by the Evas. When they aren't mute in the English, they just sound horrible instead of horrific.

Also, everyone in the dub cannot for the life of them pronounce "Eva" correctly. Instead of the proper "eh-vah", they say "ay-vah", like it's the name of a little German girl or something.

There are other reasons, but those are pretty much the basics. I haven't watched the dub in a while, actually, but for pretty good reasons, I think.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2003-10-29 07:45pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Spike Spencer as Shinji sounds too sarcastic in the first few episodes, but he turns out okay soon enough. His screaming is also subpar when compared to Megumi Ogata's.

Asuka sounds like she's 25 while Misato sounds like she's 15 and a little too whiny.

Ritsuko is okay, but suffers from Over-Acting Syndrome later in the series.

Rei/Yui are pretty good, but Megumi Hayashibara is just so much better. It's just the sound of her voice, honestly.

Suzuhara was alright, but his accent and sound of his Japanese voice just had a better fit.

Keel Lorenz (and to a lesser extent, the rest of the HCP/SEELE) totally looses his aura of authority. In the dub he's just the threatening bossguy, while in Japanese it's like he's some kind of God.

Kaji is just attrocious. While he was extremely casual and occasionally sarcastic in Japanese, in the dub virtually everything he says comes out sounding so forced and soaking in sarcasm that he's almost unbearable.

Gendo and Fuyutsuki's VAs should have switched roles. Like Asuka and Misato, one sounds too old and the other too young.

Maya's English VA has a voice that is simply way too deep to accurately match her character, not to mention her physical appearance. It's so different that a few times it actually alters her character.

Kaworu, to be blunt, sounds like a fairy (IIRC, he even had a slight lisp). While he was rather effeminate in Japanese, he at least didn't sound like a stereotypical flaming homosexual.

And a major annoyance of mine was that they changed or removed the sounds made by the Evas. When they aren't mute in the English, they just sound horrible instead of horrific.

Also, everyone in the dub cannot for the life of them pronounce "Eva" correctly. Instead of the proper "eh-vah", they say "ay-vah", like it's the name of a little German girl or something.

There are other reasons, but those are pretty much the basics. I haven't watched the dub in a while, actually, but for pretty good reasons, I think.

What did you think about the recasts for the dub of EoE?