Request for medival warfare information.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-09-23 07:00pm

Lately I've been getting into the fantasy genre latly and have what I think are good idea's for some stories. Truth be told I'm thinking of writting them and if there good enough, try to get one or two published (I can dream). But my request is for research materal on medival warfare and the weapons used. (unlike some writers I want there to be a reason my badass warrior race is badass outside of the fact I want them to be badass). I'm looking myself but I have noticed alot of people seem to know what they are talking about, so do anyone have any websites or tips for writting a realistic medival combat and society?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-23 07:07pm

It would help if you where more specific then "medieval" as its a very broad term.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-09-23 07:31pm

I can assume your talking large scale warfare rather than individual warriors?
If you tell me what sort of info you are looking for you I'm pretty sure I can provide. Though you'd need to give me a rough idea of tech levels etc and I can fill in the info you need.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-09-23 08:11pm

I'm not sure ether, outside of the general plots I have little of the mechanics of warfare and society done. At first I mainly had the idea of Dark Age style warfare and weaponry....But thats a little over done don't you guys think? I think my first idea will deal with more Ancient World style armies with a mixture of middle age weaponry and tatics thrown in.

While I'm going to wait and ask my friends if they think story outlines(at least the world outlines) would be okay to post online if I do intend to puplish(Which has been my dream). I'll give away that my first idea deals with a world thoacracy empire which disolves over a couple of decades into indivaul kingdoms and city states.

What do you guys think? What pisses you off in fantasy? What type of details do authors general miss or misinterpret? Anything you are waiting for to see in fantasy?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-23 10:57pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:I'm not sure ether, outside of the general plots I have little of the mechanics of warfare and society done. At first I mainly had the idea of Dark Age style warfare and weaponry....But thats a little over done don't you guys think? I think my first idea will deal with more Ancient World style armies with a mixture of middle age weaponry and tatics thrown in.

Weapons, tactics, and organizations of different era's are quite often not compatible. For example tight disciplined ranks of swordsmen, will be quite ineffective because only the front rank can fight, and they won't have enough space to swing there weapons.

While I'm going to wait and ask my friends if they think story outlines(at least the world outlines) would be okay to post online if I do intend to puplish(Which has been my dream). I'll give away that my first idea deals with a world thoacracy empire which disolves over a couple of decades into indivaul kingdoms and city states.

A true world empire on that tech level would be unmanageable, though an empire of the "known world" could be done, see Rome, while still being more then large enough for all the lesser powers you could need. A breakup period of only a few decades would make for a very bloody time.

What do you guys think? What pisses you off in fantasy? What type of details do authors general miss or misinterpret? Anything you are waiting for to see in fantasy?

Dark ages fantasy has been heavily done and I'd like to see more takes on other time periods, like the age of GUNPOWDER! But you can still produce good stuff in that context. However, I wouldn't count on getting many readers. Personally I'm considering a story with some fantasy elements, but set in the nineteenth century.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-09-24 01:34am

For info on weapons, especially swords, see http://www.myarmoury.com , that's one kickass site for really good information on them.

As for posting stuff you're going to write for publishing online, bad idea. Take it up with the people you trust over email. If you're in the writer's guild, see the Writing Resources thread I posted. If you're not, go here to get most of the same links in a less organized fashion. If you've got an ezBoard account, just post on the Lifeline Story Board subforum and people will jump in to help you out, especially if you mention I pointed you there.

Edi

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-09-24 02:06pm

If I may give a reccomendation?

Don't worry too much about weaponry. Since you want them to be badasses from the outside, give them some cheap weapons like axes and spears and shortbows. They may not even wear much armor.

Instead, focus on the disciplined nature fo their army. Rome won and won and kept winning because of its tight, dedicated organization. The Mongols won because they were highly trained and disiplined to act as a single fighting team. The US wins against many of its opponents because its is a disciplined and dedicated and well trained in combat.

First, give us an idea of what the "states"' militaries are composed of, and I can give a few tactical responses to go along with the discipline and training.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-09-24 02:57pm

Thank you guys for the help so far. I really liked the links you gave me to Edi, Thanks. I just might start a lifeline.

And SB I though of that as well. Any good websites on the subject? But to anser your question:

Series one: The empire is now going to be anceint world in tech and tatics. My empire is the badguys and I want one of the reason's the good guy's win will be better tatics (To upset the better numbers and religios fevor of the badguys) What types of tatics and tech would you suggest I base my stuff on? badguys=greek goodguys= macedonion or roman?

Series two: I know this is middle ages compleatly.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-09-25 10:07am

The Romans won because of their superior organization. But even then, superior numbers had a lot to do with it.

What kind of economic resources do your Good Guys (tm) have available? The Roman armies needed extended training time, supplies of good iron, shields, and leather armor.

This is actually much less expensive than the Greek hoplites, which needed lots of brinze (more expensive than iron). They had better armor, but their methods weren't as effective against the Romans. They couldn't move very quickly, and they didn't have so many troops.

Short note: Bronze is a better armoring material than Iron, and probably most Steel of that age. In the cost department, bronze is so expensive that you could afford to get much more iron armor for the price.

What kind of terrain is this on?

If you want to go with the Greek v Roman model, what you are probably looking at is:

Lines of Roman-style infantry several men deep. These will quickly advance to close range with the enemy, and shove them back with the huge shields while stabbing them down with the gladius. This pins larger enemy weapons (and against the spear-wielding Hoplites, this is a brutal tactic) and removes the range advantage. because of the big shields and the lgiht armor, Roman soldiers will form "tortoises" if under archery fire and run to close range.

Depending on the commander's skill, the Greek-style people might be able to go for even casualties. But one problem of the Greek system was the number of commanders who were generals solely because of their heritage. They were King-Warriors, and although often very skilled in personal combat, you couldn't count on them being great commanders. (See the Odyssey for a depiction of the divide. You see great warrior-kings and also great Commander-kings, and they rather sharply differed on good strategy)

The Romans not only tended to produce great commanders, but tended to find someone who was a great commander when in a period of trouble. The commanders knew who the men were, trusted them, and didn't piss their lives away. The men trusted their commanders implicitly, and often followed them into some pretty hairy situations based on that trust.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-09-25 10:29am

Later on, Series 2:

Well, if you want to go for the Knights in shining armor trick, decide what kind of technology and level of development you want.

Crossbows: Invented by the greeks originally (Chinese discovered independantly a little later). Not really used as a serous military weapon until the later invention of heavy corssbows. Still could be found where people hunted game or fought gainst lightly armored troops. These had a lot to do with the death of Plate.

Longsword: Idea known since ancient times, not used by the Romans much. Needs more space on the battlefield per soldier, and hence armies took up more space with fewer people. Really came into use by nobles needing a good sword and who had the money to pay for one and could fight with a lot of room. These had nothing to do with the death of Plate.

Axes and Maces/Flails: These lovely numbers started out life as popular weapons among the german descended peoples, and later came into play again because Plate grew too strong for longswords to break it. Cheap and effective.

Spears/Pikes: These weapons were popular at first because they were cheap and easy to use, and later came into use for killing knights, and later after that for groups of mixed gunpowder/pike regiments.

Guns: Invented about the same time as Platmail, but lagged behind in development for a while. These had little to do with the death of Plate.

Bows: Bows are certainly in use and have decent range and firepower. The English Long bow was devastating, awesomely quick, and had great range. It needed the heartwood of the Yew tree to be made, though, and it demanded 20 years of trainging to make an expert bowman.

Chain Mail: Standard armor until the 14th century, really. No one had anything much better. It provided decent protection, as evinced by the fact that Vikings tended to hack at the unprotected legs of their enemies and that armies without this stuff lost to those who did. Its heavy and its not pleasant to wear, and it expensive in this era (Remember, this is Dark Age armor, and metal is very expensive), but it tended to accumulate over time.

Plate Mail: As the High Middle Ages came to a close, Platemail began to be used. It was in some ways better than chainmail for manuverability as well as protection. Over two centuries, it ggew so thick and poerful that even bullets could not pierce it! However, by that time it was so expensive no one could afford it save Dukes and Kings. Plate really died out because at medium to close range, crossbows cut through plate. Longbows were only used in any number by the Englihs, who found it difficult to maintain their troop strength, and guns were too expensive at the time, though they were a sort of final nail in the coffin. There some very good infantry plate-clad armies used for killing plate mail-wearers.

Troop Styles:
Heavy Calvary - These wear heavy armor and use lances to crush their enemies totally. They could be held off with pike and spear walls, but very little else could stop them completely.

Archer Calvary - The Mongols used this, backed up by levies of subject poeples. The Mongol model was better than anyone else on the open field, but they utterly sucked at taking fortresses that didn't burn. To avenge themselves on one small group of ME fanatics, they had to bring seige engineers from China to the Middle East, because otherwise they had no way to attack. Archer Calvary are not invincible, however: the Mongols were awesomely well trained, and spent amounts of training time even the Knights would have considered excessive. The Mongols could not retain their grip on societies they conquered because they could not sustain their training regiment after conquest; the next generation had no similar skill.

Light Calvary: Used to hunt and kill pesky archers.

Social:
Knights studied warfare and were very, very good at it.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-09-25 06:35pm

Smiling Bandit wrote:The Romans won because of their superior organization. But even then, superior numbers had a lot to do with it.

What kind of economic resources do your Good Guys (tm) have available? The Roman armies needed extended training time, supplies of good iron, shields, and leather armor.

Well at first there quite primitive, but a city state joins them with good weapons and battle tatics and my good guys provide plenty of battle magic.

This is actually much less expensive than the Greek hoplites, which needed lots of brinze (more expensive than iron). They had better armor, but their methods weren't as effective against the Romans. They couldn't move very quickly, and they didn't have so many troops.

Short note: Bronze is a better armoring material than Iron, and probably most Steel of that age. In the cost department, bronze is so expensive that you could afford to get much more iron armor for the price.

Thanks for the info I wouldn't have known that and assumed the opposite. I was thinking that the good guys get access to high quality steel though magical means.

What kind of terrain is this on?

Varous, the empire covers mostly green plains however, and some battles will take place on a rocky desolate wasteland.

If you want to go with the Greek v Roman model, what you are probably looking at is:

Lines of Roman-style infantry several men deep. These will quickly advance to close range with the enemy, and shove them back with the huge shields while stabbing them down with the gladius. This pins larger enemy weapons (and against the spear-wielding Hoplites, this is a brutal tactic) and removes the range advantage. because of the big shields and the lgiht armor, Roman soldiers will form "tortoises" if under archery fire and run to close range.

Depending on the commander's skill, the Greek-style people might be able to go for even casualties. But one problem of the Greek system was the number of commanders who were generals solely because of their heritage. They were King-Warriors, and although often very skilled in personal combat, you couldn't count on them being great commanders. (See the Odyssey for a depiction of the divide. You see great warrior-kings and also great Commander-kings, and they rather sharply differed on good strategy)

The Romans not only tended to produce great commanders, but tended to find someone who was a great commander when in a period of trouble. The commanders knew who the men were, trusted them, and didn't piss their lives away. The men trusted their commanders implicitly, and often followed them into some pretty hairy situations based on that trust.

Thank you I'll look at both more closly...I do know the empire is more warrior-king then Commander-king.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-09-26 08:14am

Well at first there quite primitive, but a city state joins them with good weapons and battle tatics and my good guys provide plenty of battle magic.

Do they have horses? This is not an idle question: many poeples didn't have access to large enough stocks of horses that they could field armies of horsemen. If they do, they can try to use their mobility to hit and run on the Empire. If you want infantry battles, then you are looking at a barbarian people who probably willl be equipped with:

Leather/Hide Armor, then Bronze cuirasses (in order or increasing rarity)
Spears/Axes, then Swords (in order or increasing rarity)

What kind of magic do they and their opponents have? Do they have a numerical advantage? Its not required that they do, but it would help.

Thanks for the info I wouldn't have known that and assumed the opposite. I was thinking that the good guys get access to high quality steel though magical means.

Well, skilled smiths could make pretty good steel very early on in history, although they didn't exactly realize how it was different from iron, save i the observed effects. And it was prettier. It was only after Iron smelting and refining came into use that anyone could use iron, though.

Varous, the empire covers mostly green plains however, and some battles will take place on a rocky desolate wasteland.

Well, this means that the Hoplite model is a little less effective, and light infantry can work better. With open terrain, there is a lot more room for manuvering. A rocky desolate waste is not ideal for battle by anyone, but if its flat, armies can fight over it. Smart commanders will do anything they can to avoid such a battle, though.

Thank you I'll look at both more closly...I do know the empire is more warrior-king then Commander-king.

Goin fer that 'ol showdown on the battlefield scene, eh?

BTW, I might suggest you look into the effects of disease and sickness on militaries. By some estimates, it was not until this century that the majority of armed conflicts saw fewer people die of disease than woiunds in battle (although sometimes wounds led to dieases, too).

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-09-26 11:16am

Just use the good old-fashioned catapult with plague victim corpses, and launch them into castles.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-09-26 12:03pm

Just use the good old-fashioned catapult with plague victim corpses, and launch them into castles.

Hard to handle without killing your guys, too.

I was thinking more along the lines of the natural increase and disease rates when people from different places meet and share germs. Its not pleasant, but its very real.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-09-26 02:01pm

Smiling Bandit wrote:
Just use the good old-fashioned catapult with plague victim corpses, and launch them into castles.
Hard to handle without killing your guys, too.

It was standard procedure, regardless.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-09-26 02:41pm

Well, sometimes, yeah. but barbarians usually don't know how to do seige warfare very well anyway. The Germans, the Huns, and the Mongols all sucked at it.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-26 03:08pm

Slartibartfast wrote:Just use the good old-fashioned catapult with plague victim corpses, and launch them into castles.

If you've got any plague victims to draw on, it's probably because your army has been ravaged by the disease, your about to retreat and its an act of vengeance. But you still lose.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-09-26 04:38pm

Or there are plague victims lying around in a nearby village. Then you go, throw a few into a cart and use them as ammo.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-09-26 05:30pm

Smiling Bandit wrote:

Do they have horses? This is not an idle question: many poeples didn't have access to large enough stocks of horses that they could field armies of horsemen. If they do, they can try to use their mobility to hit and run on the Empire. If you want infantry battles, then you are looking at a barbarian people who probably willl be equipped with:

Leather/Hide Armor, then Bronze cuirasses (in order or increasing rarity)
Spears/Axes, then Swords (in order or increasing rarity)
Hmmm.... Horses are rare in the first story, though there might be a little element of it, but majority of the war is infanty.

What kind of magic do they and their opponents have? Do they have a numerical advantage? Its not required that they do, but it would help.
Magic ranges in usefullness from mearly another part of the battle that has to be concidered, to the deciding factor.

Well, skilled smiths could make pretty good steel very early on in history, although they didn't exactly realize how it was different from iron, save i the observed effects. And it was prettier. It was only after Iron smelting and refining came into use that anyone could use iron, though.

Well, this means that the Hoplite model is a little less effective, and light infantry can work better. With open terrain, there is a lot more room for manuvering. A rocky desolate waste is not ideal for battle by anyone, but if its flat, armies can fight over it. Smart commanders will do anything they can to avoid such a battle, though.
Hmm would a empire devolp the Hoplite model then in a grassy plain land like that?

Goin fer that 'ol showdown on the battlefield scene, eh?
Not really, just another flaw of the empires that is easly exploited.

BTW, I might suggest you look into the effects of disease and sickness on militaries. By some estimates, it was not until this century that the majority of armed conflicts saw fewer people die of disease than woiunds in battle (although sometimes wounds led to dieases, too).

Thanks, I will.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-26 07:22pm

Slartibartfast wrote:Or there are plague victims lying around in a nearby village. Then you go, throw a few into a cart and use them as ammo.

The result being your army ends up being gutted, and slightly faster then the fortress. You couldn't handle plague victims without ending up with your own guys infected. And if a nearby village has it, your troops would have visited it and gotten the disease that way.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-09-27 11:55am

You are missing the point: launching people with catapults is fun.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-27 05:33pm

Slartibartfast wrote:You are missing the point: launching people with catapults is fun.

Then why bother with corpses? Corpses don't scream.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-09-27 07:10pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:You are missing the point: launching people with catapults is fun.
Then why bother with corpses? Corpses don't scream.

Good point... damn. How about cows? Cow catapults are a riot.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-09-29 08:39am

Hmm would a empire devolp the Hoplite model then in a grassy plain land like that?

If you want to go for elite Lawful Evil warriors of Evil God X (apologize for the DnD reference) you can simply state they are extremely tough and strong and can run for hours while wearing their super-heavy armor. Not really realistic, but fun. Otherwise, you may simply want to mention that thye developed their military in a mountainous setting, which would also explain the lack of horses.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-09-29 03:35pm

Smiling Bandit wrote:
Hmm would a empire devolp the Hoplite model then in a grassy plain land like that?
If you want to go for elite Lawful Evil warriors of Evil God X (apologize for the DnD reference) you can simply state they are extremely tough and strong and can run for hours while wearing their super-heavy armor. Not really realistic, but fun. Otherwise, you may simply want to mention that thye developed their military in a mountainous setting, which would also explain the lack of horses.

I'll just switch it from grassy to mountainous....Or at least the capital. The formation of the Empire is more based on political and religous reasons than military anyway.