The state of the genre

[Patrick Degan]

A few weeks ago, there was a thread discussing whether fantasy had to be innovative. Whether this is possible may be debatable but from my perspective it seems that the fantasy genre has gotten horribly incestuous and unoriginal over the last three decades. The stacks at every bookstore seem filled with endless copies of the same three basic "epics" penned by armies of hacks and all devolving upon the same cookie-cutter Dark Age Europe type world and quest for magickal weapons/artefacts extending at least seven 500-page volumes, or pale attempts at satire which amount to the same thing. It's gotten to where nobody seems able to even think of fantasy constructed on any other story pattern.

Once upon a time, there were authours who wrote what could be classified as "speculative fantasy" —the inclusion of one or two unusual elements in what is otherwise the mundsne, everyday world which drives the plot and affects the life of the central protagonist. Not "epic" by any stretch but more of a creative challenge and generator of far more interesting and engaging plots in which a major life-change for the protagonist develops. Some examples:



• An infantry lieutennant in World War II gains the nightmarish ability to see death in the faces of those destined to die.

• A World War I pilot flies through a "cloud of silence" and finds himself landing on a USAF airbase in 1959.

• An escaped Nazi war criminal drawn back to Dachau is put on trial by the ghosts of his victims.

• A man with no memory sailing on a lone freighter in the middle of the Atlantic in World War II knows somehow that the ship will be sunk at 1.15 a.m.

• A scared little punk hired by a gangster to do murder is confronted in the mirror by his own conscience.

• A man wakes up one morning to find that somehow, someway, all memory of his life and identity has been erased from the minds of everyone who ever knew him.

• A man with a heart condition is confronted in his dreams by a dark, sinister woman leading him to his death.

• A businessman suddenly, without warning, finds himself in a parallel world in which his life is nothing but a movie plot and he the actor "playing" his own "character".

• An ordinary man who accidentally flips a quarter into a newsstand cashbox in such a way that it stands on edge suddenly acquires the ability to read minds.

• A weak-minded ventriliquist finds his dummy taking on a very sinister life of its own —so much so that they "change places".

• An amateur pool shark gets his wish and is challenged to a game by the ghost of the greatest billiards champion who ever lived —with life and death as the stakes of the contest.

• A popular college history professor is discovered to be an immortal by his prospective father-in-law.

• The leader of a wagon-train trekking its desperate way through Death Valley in 1847 scouts ahead over the rim of a high hill and finds himself alongside a modern highway and a roadside diner in 1961.



These basic but compelling fantasy plot ideas comprised some of the most classic episodes of The Twilight Zone. Proof that fantasy can be something other than the Same Old Shit.

[Edi]

A few weeks ago, there was a thread discussing whether fantasy had to be innovative. Whether this is possible may be debatable

I'd say it is, but it's very difficult to do, for reasons I'll get back to later.

but from my perspective it seems that the fantasy genre has gotten horribly incestuous and unoriginal over the last three decades.

Yes. Urrrgh. Especially lately. I've read a shitload of stuff, and it's more or less the same all the time. At times I've had to consciously restrain myself from actually hurling some of the books full force at the nearest wall, and given the care I take when handling books (I tend to go apeshit if somebody mishandles my stuff and reprimand people for mishandling library books), that's saying something.

The stacks at every bookstore seem filled with endless copies of the same three basic "epics" penned by armies of hacks and all devolving upon the same cookie-cutter Dark Age Europe type world and quest for magickal weapons/artefacts extending at least seven 500-page volumes, or pale attempts at satire which amount to the same thing. It's gotten to where nobody seems able to even think of fantasy constructed on any other story pattern.

I'll take a stab at this. I think most of the reasons for the same old Same Old is that it's what the authors are familiar with. Most fantasy is written by Western authors for Western readers, so it usually falls into one basic mold. There is Tolkien to consider first, most of these people cut their teeth on him when being introduced to the genre, though that will gradually change as new authors emerge (though these ones will have cut their teeth on the knock-offs...). This already gives them ideas about what fantasy should be. Further, all the mythology they are familiar with will be mostly Greek and some Egyptian, and the central European and possibly Norse mythologies, and they will be somewhat familiar with the Middle Ages from history lessons in school. This gives them the tools to write your generic fantasy book more or less well (usually less).

For mass fantasy in mass volume, you will obviously have a limit on how many different variations of the same themes you can construct, given the above. I do agree that everything seems to be a quest for Magic Thingamabob X these days, and it cuts down on the quality quite drastically. More originality, or at least variety, should be encouraged. For something truly original in the genre, look at David Farland's Runelords series. It was a real kick reading it, even though the beginning was a bit stilted. His work is, as far as I can recognize and one of the blurb comments says, derivative of no one else. There's also a man who has read his science and seems to understand it rather well as demonstrated by his application of e.g. physics and evolution in his writing (not that it's real world feasible, there's the magical fudge factor, but everything is internally consistent).

It would be very refreshing to see an influx of titles that were influenced by mythologies and ancient cultures less well known to the average Western reader, e.g. themes from ancient India, China, Japanese mythology, Australian aborigines, South American Indian myths, or even the Finnish Kalevala (for a very nice derivative of this mixed with Celtic mythology, see Michael Scott Rohan's Winter of the World trilogy). Of course, the biggest obstacle for this is that it requires a shitload of work on the authors' part, they need to get familiar with a new and alien theme, then comfortable enough with it to actually write something that draws on it (without fucking it up), and then convincing the publishing outfits that they've got something worthwhile. Even for someone who reads mythologies (among other things) as a hobby and knows a lot about them, it can be difficult to internalize something with an alien frame of reference, as my father's comments on the Popol-Vuh demonstrated. He found it difficult to get a good grip of because of the culture gap, something not present when he read e.g. Edda, the Song of Roland, Kalevala, Greek myths or many others.

This laziness is a big problem. Most of the authors don't do nearly enough research, but go on with stereotypes and (often faulty) information they picked up from the books they read, and this shows in many of the fantasy brainbugs we see. This type of authors are often characterised by a massive output volume both in titles and number of pages per volume in a short time. It's the good ones who do their research well, pay attention and take their time and who you have to wait for.

An even bigger problem in contemporary fantasy seems to be that hacks of little or no talent (or even with a modicum of talent) start writing with a generic plot idea, have some sense of what they are going to be doing for about the first book, but have no fucking idea of how and when the story should end. This results in volume upon volume of bullshit as they extend unnecessarily extend the tale in order to rip off their audience for every cent they can get. Witness Robert Jordan, who is running into Volume Umpteen, when the story reportedly stopped being interesting after Volume 6 (no, I haven't read him, and I should read the first two or three books, I think), or Terry Goodkind who obviously had no fucking clue what to do after the first book. Basically he went on a fishing expedition with Wizard's First Rule, got successful, wrote some more and certainly had no idea at all what he was doing and where he was going by the time he finished book 4, and he's so preachy (in addition to all the other shit) that it makes me want to puke.

Most of the good titles these days have a solid beginning, and even more importantly, a pre-determined story-arc that has a definite ending instead of being dragged on forever. For this reason, I'm a great fan of certain writers who have demonstrated the tendency and capability to do this, such as J.V. Jones.

Once upon a time, there were authours who wrote what could be classified as "speculative fantasy" —the inclusion of one or two unusual elements in what is otherwise the mundsne, everyday world which drives the plot and affects the life of the central protagonist. Not "epic" by any stretch but more of a creative challenge and generator of far more interesting and engaging plots in which a major life-change for the protagonist develops. <snip>

These basic but compelling fantasy plot ideas comprised some of the most classic episodes of The Twilight Zone. Proof that fantasy can be something other than the Same Old Shit.

Shame that those have more of a niche market with today's audience than a broad one, or perhaps it's the fault of the publishing houses. I've made some forays into that kind of things lately, though rather desultory ones. Stickman by an author whose name escapes me at the moment was a very nicely done example of this kind of stuff.

For more traditional fantasy that nonetheless distinguishes itself from the great mass out there, David Farland's work, Michael Scott Rohan's Winter of the World and J.V. Jones's Barbed Coil are all definitely above average titles that have more unique twists than the basic D&D-inspired works you see everywhere. There are some rather obscure works that are completely traditional in one sense while retaining a lot of interesting ideas (despite being out and out recognisably D&D-inspired), at least I found Marcus Herniman's Arrandin trilogy (two volumes so far) enjoyable. The first one has a good plot written in a horrible style, while the second one improves the writing while keeping most of the interesting things. The series also has the benefit of actually having a steady course where it's going instead of rambling here there and everywhere.

Anyways, that's my couple of cents for now, but I'm definitely going to keep an eye on this thread, it's about the most interesting around for a long time.

Edi

[Chardok]

Hey pat, those examples you gave REEK of twilight zone episodes! (By reek I mean they would make great episodes, IMHO, as I happen to really like the twilight zone/outer limits) Well done.

[Symmetry]

Hmm, the best recent and origonal book I can think of was The Waterborn, folled by The Blackgod, both by J. Keyes. I don't think I've ever seen a truly animistic world portrayed before that (Ok, Ventus counts, but that SF...). A lot of the feel is the AD 500-1000 east Asia, I'd highly recomend it.

An encouraging trend I've noticed is that fantasy authors no longer all seem to rely on the heroic journey to structure their narative, at least not the good ones.

[Ghost Rider]

Hey pat, those examples you gave REEK of twilight zone episodes! (By reek I mean they would make great episodes, IMHO, as I happen to really like the twilight zone/outer limits) Well done.

And his last paragraph said what again?

Thank you.

All in all...nice examples Patrick. I still believe most problems stem from people associate Fantasy with D&D or Tolkien for a better lack of a analogy.

Rarely does anyone think beyon castles, maidens, and dragons.

[Peregrin Toker]

Well, I currently have a fantasy story perpetually "in development" for whenever I finish "The Wormhole War"... I haven't found a title for it, but my intent is that it should be weird first and foremost. I've neither started writing that much - but here's a short synopsis:

It's about a bored young ne'er-do-well who spends most of his free time building a rocket-powered lawn tractor and suddenly finds an old sword in a junkyard that appears totally new. After discovering that sword, he changes - he finds out that the sword has been given to him by a group of interdimensional demigods who have chosen him as their champion... and therefore he has to help them maintaining the balance of the multiverse by keeping the gates between the myriad of different parallel universes safe from various threats. The portals between the universes - and the threats to the multiverse - are usually where you least expect it. Eventually, with help from these demigods he finally builds aforementioned rocket-powered lawn tractor. (There will be plenty of chase scenes)

And here's the big innovation: The narrator is... the sword which Our Hero finds in a junkyard.

However, I have shelved it for several reasons:
1) Too much of a resemblance to an unholy crossbreed between Akira, eXistenZ and Elric of Melnibone.
2) Too much of a resemblance to a really bad acid trip.
3) The Wormhole War which probably takes at least half a year to complete - and I have to devote all of my fanfic-writing abilities to TWW.

BTW - the most refreshing, unique and innovative fantasy I've read was "Weaveworld" by Clive Barker. It did seem really weird to me, but in my book that's a good thing.

[Chardok]

Hey pat, those examples you gave REEK of twilight zone episodes! (By reek I mean they would make great episodes, IMHO, as I happen to really like the twilight zone/outer limits) Well done.

And his last paragraph said what again?

Thank you.

All in all...nice examples Patrick. I still believe most problems stem from people associate Fantasy with D&D or Tolkien for a better lack of a analogy.

Rarely does anyone think beyon castles, maidens, and dragons.

ACK, I'm an idiot...I thought that very last part was part of the sig, I guess...read too quickly...or DIDN'T read too quickly

Thank you.

[Darth_Shinji]

I think its also something of the fans fault as well....How many of the good stuff gets the reconiqition it deserves? Thomas Convent, Runelords, DeathGate Cycle, WizBiz, Ect. There is alot of series that do break the mode and go in new directions. Just no one talks about them.

And yes I do know Thomas Convent and DeathGate have a fanbase and you can find good websites on them. But even they don't have half the fanbase they deserve compared to WoT.

And dammit! There will be a website dedicated to the Brazil Broketail series! I will make it one of these days....

[Darth Wong]

I call it the McDonald's syndrome. Take a close-minded person from Iowa, stick him in the most exotic locale in the world, surround him with some of the world's most exotic foreign foods, sights, and sounds, and what will he do? He will go looking for a McDonald's.

Same thing here. The writers are producing one kind of fantasy because the readers buy only one kind of fantasy.

[Keevan_Colton]

Personally I am quite fond of Laurell Hamiltons Horror/Fantasy works....the Merry Gently and Anita Blake novels are both really entertaining.
One is set in a modern world where the sidehe are real, the Unseile court having moved to america at the time around the war of independence and become to the US media something similar to what the royal family is in the UK.
The other is another modern world with vampires and werewolves existing, vampires having been given rights as citizens in america. It's all in all good entertaining stuff to read and I recommend it to everyone here (I've already noticed a few other fans of the Anita Blake novels and some penguin jokes so I know I'm at least in part preaching to the choir )

[fgalkin]

That's why I stick to Russian fantasy.

-Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Sriad]

If you haven't read Diane Wynne Jones or Terry Pratchett pick them up post haste.

If you have and still feel this way, I can only suggest that you read the reviews in Locus (Near reality-Fantasy has kind of been subsumed by "new wave" science fiction, not that they were ever very distant) and see what you like there. I've seen lots of promising reviews, but I like the weirder stuff so I couldn't recommend any particulars.

[Edi]

I'm reading Diane Wynne Jones's Dalemark Quartet right now, and it's boring the fuck out of me most of the time. The world itself has some promise but is oversimplified, and the biggest problem for me is that the characters are, every last one of them, cardboard cutouts with no real human emotions. Ack!

Edi

[Sriad]

I'm reading Diane Wynne Jones's Dalemark Quartet right now, and it's boring the fuck out of me most of the time. The world itself has some promise but is oversimplified, and the biggest problem for me is that the characters are, every last one of them, cardboard cutouts with no real human emotions. Ack!

Edi

I never read Dalemark, it didn't con well. I was thinking more about her recent stuff, like Dark Lord of Derkholm, Deep Secret, and A Sudden Wild Magic. Or like Howl's Moving Castle.

[Peregrin Toker]

That's why I stick to Russian fantasy.

-Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

What is that like??

[fgalkin2]

That's why I stick to Russian fantasy.

-Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

What is that like??

Well, it is of variable quality, to tell you the truth. There is some of the good stuff, like Mariya Semyonova's Volkodaw. She is a historian specializing in ancient Slavs and the Scandinavians, and has wrote quite a few historical novels. This book takes place in a world that is modeled on Russian folklore (ala you pray to say, Perun, in real life, but in the books, he actually answers you). It's an imaginary world, but its pattermed on the real thing, and it has the prototypes of real nations: i.e. ancient Greeks, Vikings, Arabs, early Christianity, African kingdoms, Asian nomads, Maori, and, of course, the Slavs. Pretty good stuff, but then she moved on to writing mystery/actuion stories (they sell better), and the series became free for all, meaning a lot of hack writers try to start their career by writning a novel set in the universe (although you can't use Semyonova's characters for anything more than a cameo, that's the rule), meaning that a lot of crap exists in the "World of Volkodaw" series.

Another good series is by Nick Perumov. This one is of variable quality, since he has produced 15 novels in 10 years to make ends meet. But, in general, his novels have interesting ideas. For instance, in most of his stuff, the good guys belong to the dark side. His first novel featured your stereotypical Dark Lord being portrayed as the good guy, revolting against the non-caring gods of light. He has tried to get that one translated into English, but publishers said that the American public won't understand the whole light?dark situation (The light side is always the good guys, see.)

Now, there is much more stuff than that, but I have no time to post it all right now.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Edi]

Is there any of that stuff you mentioned available in English, fgalkin? I'd be very interested in seeing it.

By the way, have you read a trilogy of books that were titled, in order, The Sword, The Ring and The Chalice, I forget by which author, though. They were so obviously influenced by Slavic myths that a blind man couldn't have missed it, and I generally liked the tone of the books, even though the writing was not very spectacular. I'd really like to see more, but have no idea where to start, and availability here is really limited (as are my funds). And I'm not going to learn Russian just so I can read those books. Would be cool, but takes too much work.

Edi

[Morat]

I find it interesting that fantasy novels have tended toward the Tolkien-style stereotypes, whereas televised fantasy seemed to be drawn towards a modern setting (BTVS, Charmed, Joan of Arcadia, etc.). I'm sure budget is an issue, since modern fantasy is cheaper to televise than historical fantasy, but I think audiences are also important in these trends. Also, fantasy TV in general seems to be a bit less concerned with massive plots and wars, favoring character development and ethical/emotional themes instead.

Thoughts?

[MKSheppard]

These basic but compelling fantasy plot ideas comprised some of the most classic episodes of The Twilight Zone. Proof that fantasy can be something other than the Same Old Shit.

Damn now I need to get all the Twilight zone eps now

[Crayz9000]

There's also L.E. Modesitt's Recluse series, which is set on its own world. I haven't seen a single novel in that series that dealt with finding some artifact...