The Horde from the East (Uruk Hai vs)

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-09-21 01:46am

There will be a little of the "monsters!" bit among the less-disciplined of the troops, but that's not going to make much of a difference when they see how fast they are falling to the archers.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-09-21 01:49am

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Chardok wrote:I gotta get my ROTK novelization from work to see if I can get more descriptions of the seige engines and whatnot...

Do you mind if I sig this for posterity?

FUQ! FUQ! FUQ!

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2003-09-21 04:28am

Okay, okay, meant my Damn Two Towers book....spoke too quickly...
/sigh I said RoTK, I think, because I just finished it for the third time, and I've been reading it at work between calls, I've got RoTK on the brain....
If you are referring to the fact that I called it novelization, I see the error of my terminology, and I stand molested...

I see my retention of LoTR facts is pitiful, but what stuck out in my head was the runner and the thing Gimli said about the uruks;
Gimli: "This is no rabble of mindless orcs. These are Uruk-hai. Their armor is thick and their shields broad."

I don't know, I guess the geek in me wants to think that the vicious, really strong, tough, fanged uruks would demolish the mongol hordes, but admittedly, my knowledge on the subject is slim...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-21 04:52am

Chardok wrote:I see my retention of LoTR facts is pitiful, but what stuck out in my head was the runner and the thing Gimli said about the uruks;
Gimli: "This is no rabble of mindless orcs. These are Uruk-hai. Their armor is thick and their shields broad."

Gimli was proven wrong. The Uruk-Hai are mindless (really, you'd think they would have thought to hold their shields in front of themselves as they charged, rather than waving them around uselessly and leading with their chests and faces), and their armour was obviously not very thick. As for their shields being broad, they were no broader than anyone else's shields.

I don't know, I guess the geek in me wants to think that the vicious, really strong, tough, fanged uruks would demolish the mongol hordes, but admittedly, my knowledge on the subject is slim...

Teeth have never played a large part in military tactics.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2003-09-21 05:13am

Conceded on both points....especially the teeth..

(I would point out, however, that the uruks did use that "Turtle shell" thing the romans were famous for during sieges.... Though I must admit, you'd think they would have used it long before storming the gate

)

TESTUDO

In a battle on uphill ground, in storming a walled town or fortified camp, or in any case where troops were exposed to a plunging fire, the "turtle shell" might be formed. The front-rank men, closed in, held their shields in front, the flank men holding theirs on the sides, and the others raising theirs overhead like overlapping shingles on a roof. This formation gave almost complete protection against all but the heaviest missiles.

^Taken from digital attic RE: Roman warfare: Tactics/formations/logistics

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2003-09-21 05:16am

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Chardok wrote:I gotta get my ROTK novelization from work to see if I can get more descriptions of the seige engines and whatnot...

Do you mind if I sig this for posterity?

:

: It's public doman. I don't fancy a stupid thing I've said remaining when I'd really rather let it die, but I certainly can't stop you....

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2003-09-21 05:16am

DOMAIN.
Grr....

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-09-21 08:02am

Sea Skimmer wrote:Sauron had NO Uruk-hai period. They where specifically created and bred by Saruman for his own army. The two forces were separate and this scenario only involves one.

I was refering to the books, where he most certainly did have uruk-hai. They weren't Saruman's science project in the novels.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-21 03:29pm

Chardok wrote:

I see my retention of LoTR facts is pitiful, but what stuck out in my head was the runner and the thing Gimli said about the uruks;
Gimli: "This is no rabble of mindless orcs. These are Uruk-hai. Their armor is thick and their shields broad."

And a very stupid line it was, especially seeing how Gimli and everyone else in the group had easily smashed through their armor at Rauros. There was nothing exceptional about the shields held by the majority of them and their narrow if anything. Course they also proved too stupid to use them correctly.

I don't know, I guess the geek in me wants to think that the vicious, really strong, tough, fanged uruks would demolish the mongol hordes, but admittedly, my knowledge on the subject is slim...

The Mongols would stand off and shower them with arrows from those nice composite bows. The Uruk-Hai's only effective protection would be careful placement of their shields, even if the arrows penetrate they wont keep going on into the warrior. However with the rest of the there armor still easily penetrated they'd be cut down in large numbers.

There pikmen would be useless since they don't have enough to set up a proper formation which is dozens of ranks deep and the lack of effective armor would mean the few ranks they can muster would be easily killed off. A charge by swordsmen would be cut to pieces with the Mongols simply riding away shooting. Really the only effective weapon they'd have would be crossbowmen, but they don't seem to have many of those nor could they match the massive volume of fire or likely the range of the massed Mongols.

The Uruk-Hai would be wiped out very quickly.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-22 09:33am

Stravo wrote:No one thinks we'll have morale issues getting people to fight honest to god monsters?

Actually, the medieval Europeans of that era would probably believe that these were demons sent from Hell, and that the time of the Tribulation was upon them. I could imagine them fighting with far greater ferocity in the belief that this was the final battle between the forces of Good and Evil, God and Satan, yadda yadda yadda.

Super-Gagme · Post by **Super-Gagme** » 2003-09-22 09:47am

Darth Wong wrote:
Stravo wrote:No one thinks we'll have morale issues getting people to fight honest to god monsters?
Actually, the medieval Europeans of that era would probably believe that these were demons sent from Hell, and that the time of the Tribulation was upon them. I could imagine them fighting with far greater ferocity in the belief that this was the final battle between the forces of Good and Evil, God and Satan, yadda yadda yadda.

As soon as word got around about what they looked like the Papacy could call for a Crusade from all Christian nations to fight the hordes of hell

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-09-22 10:39am

Darth Wong wrote:
Stravo wrote:No one thinks we'll have morale issues getting people to fight honest to god monsters?
Actually, the medieval Europeans of that era would probably believe that these were demons sent from Hell, and that the time of the Tribulation was upon them. I could imagine them fighting with far greater ferocity in the belief that this was the final battle between the forces of Good and Evil, God and Satan, yadda yadda yadda.

Amazingly, a point I had not considered. That would actually make a great story come to think of it.

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2003-09-22 12:54pm

Didn't some people then think that the Mongols were pretty much the horsemen of the apocolylse as it was?

fgalkin2 · Post by **fgalkin2** » 2003-09-22 12:56pm

Mark S wrote:Didn't some people then think that the Mongols were pretty much the horsemen of the apocolylse as it was?

The Russians certainly did.

(Wait! Does that make me a Mongol?)

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-09-22 03:21pm

Stravo wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Stravo wrote:No one thinks we'll have morale issues getting people to fight honest to god monsters?
Actually, the medieval Europeans of that era would probably believe that these were demons sent from Hell, and that the time of the Tribulation was upon them. I could imagine them fighting with far greater ferocity in the belief that this was the final battle between the forces of Good and Evil, God and Satan, yadda yadda yadda.
That would actually make a great story come to think of it.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Imagine that Pope Urban II is about to make his historic speech in the year of our Lord 1095, but instead of calling for all the men of Christendom to come to the aid of the eastern Church, he talks about a horde of devils attacking from the East... Wow, it would make a great story.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-22 04:18pm

Oberleutnant wrote:
I was thinking the exact same thing. Imagine that Pope Urban II is about to make his historic speech in the year of our Lord 1095, but instead of calling for all the men of Christendom to come to the aid of the eastern Church, he talks about a horde of devils attacking from the East... Wow, it would make a great story.

Interestingly I was just about to make a thread, which was every Crusade in succession vs. Middle earth, with the Crusaders believing that Osgilath is the holy city

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-09-23 11:38am

fgalkin2 wrote:
Mark S wrote:Didn't some people then think that the Mongols were pretty much the horsemen of the apocolylse as it was?
The Russians certainly did.

(Wait! Does that make me a Mongol?)

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Well... aren't the Kalmyks, Cossacks and Tartars descended from the Mongols?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-23 05:42pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
Well... aren't the Kalmyks, Cossacks and Tartars descended from the Mongols?

I've never heard that. I'm fairly sure the Cossacks descended from the Tartars. And both Tartars and Kalmyks came from the Ukraine and a more northerly Russia.

SecondStorm · Post by **SecondStorm** » 2003-09-23 06:47pm

Well... aren't the Kalmyks, Cossacks and Tartars descended from the Mongols?

The Tartars IIRC were a tribe of Cumans who became vassals of the Mongol Horde in 12th century. Seaskimmer is correct on the location.

Im sure theres been alot of interbreeding, cultural exchange and such though.