Superman Vs. Yoda

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2003-09-12 06:30am

The freezing lake incident was in Superman III, IIRC.
And that was one rather odd incident: Superman freezes the surface of the lake (not all of it), picks the resulting huge chunk of ice up by the edge, flies with it to a nearby chemical factory which is on fire, and releases it above the facility, where it melts and quenches the fire.
Two things:
-Water ice would have broken under its own weight if he held it that way.
Hell, the edges would propably have broken off even if he tried carrying it dead center.
-I don't think that amount of ice would have melted fast enough for it not to crash into the facility.
Anyway, since this is the S2 Supes, that incident is out.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2003-09-12 06:36am

I did specify S2, but Superman from S2 is the same as Superman from Superman 3, no?

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-09-12 06:37am

Darth Wong wrote:Precisely why are we assuming that Superman circa "Superman II" is not weak-minded? Need I remind everyone that he blindly walked into combat with three like-powered beings in a crowded area and had no particular battle plan whatsoever except to go macho on them?

But up until that time, hasn't that strategy always worked for him?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-09-12 06:58am

Batman wrote:The freezing lake incident was in Superman III, IIRC.
And that was one rather odd incident: Superman freezes the surface of the lake (not all of it), picks the resulting huge chunk of ice up by the edge, flies with it to a nearby chemical factory which is on fire, and releases it above the facility, where it melts and quenches the fire.
Two things:
-Water ice would have broken under its own weight if he held it that way.
Hell, the edges would propably have broken off even if he tried carrying it dead center.
-I don't think that amount of ice would have melted fast enough for it not to crash into the facility.
Anyway, since this is the S2 Supes, that incident is out.

For one thing, I've always theorized that Superman some how makes items that he picks up hold together via means other than the items own material strength. Like you said, the ice should have crumbled due to the stress it was under. Movie and comic magic I guess. His superheroic plot wouldn't have worked if the ice immediately broke into chunks the second he lifted it.

Anyway, if you are discounting later sequels of the same character, does that not mean we have to exclude all of Yoda's fighting abilities we see in AotC because the OP specified TMP and therefore the fight scene with Dooku never happened? Then it's in the bag for Superman, since Yoda only hobbles out slowly in any of the other movies and could possibly match the Man of Steel in a fight.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2003-09-12 06:58am

BoredShirtless wrote:I did specify S2, but Superman from S2 is the same as Superman from Superman 3, no?

1. Not neccessarily (sp?). That assumes his powers are constant. Since he did NOT show feats equal to the lake-freezing/carrying in S2, we can't assume that as a given.
2. Since the 'ice' from S3 can't have been water as stated above, the incident is useless for quantifying anything unless you can give me a material that will behave and look like that.
3. In the beginning of S2, Supes is practically sitting on top of a megaton-range hydrogen bomb as it goes off (yield is IIRC) and is knocked out for a few minutes, if at all(I'm working from memory, so feel free to correct me). Yet in his battles with Zod & minions, he's decked out with a bus.
Since the second incident was shortly after regaining his powers, while the first was presumably after months if not years of superheroing, for all we know his powers grow the longer he has them. Which would mean it's NOT the same Superman, at least not power-wise.

Erm-were the visuals for the h-bomb explosion consistent with the detonation of ANY yield nuke in space? If not, that point is naturally moot.

BoredShirtless · Post by **BoredShirtless** » 2003-09-12 07:10am

Darth Wong wrote:Precisely why are we assuming that Superman circa "Superman II" is not weak-minded? Need I remind everyone that he blindly walked into combat with three like-powered beings in a crowded area and had no particular battle plan whatsoever except to go macho on them?

His approach
He didn't have much of a choice in the matter. The three Kryptonians were in the Daily Planet, and Ursa had a grip on Lois's throat. He did the right thing IMO; he drew them out of the building.

Battle Plan
It was shit. He should have drew them out to his Fortress at the very begining of the fight. But that tactical blunder, given the extenuating circumstances [rushed for time, just got his powers back], isn't enough to conclude he's weak minded IMO.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2003-09-12 07:14am

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Batman wrote:The freezing lake incident was in Superman III, IIRC.
And that was one rather odd incident: Superman freezes the surface of the lake (not all of it), picks the resulting huge chunk of ice up by the edge, flies with it to a nearby chemical factory which is on fire, and releases it above the facility, where it melts and quenches the fire.
Two things:
-Water ice would have broken under its own weight if he held it that way.
Hell, the edges would propably have broken off even if he tried carrying it dead center.
-I don't think that amount of ice would have melted fast enough for it not to crash into the facility.
Anyway, since this is the S2 Supes, that incident is out.
For one thing, I've always theorized that Superman some how makes items that he picks up hold together via means other than the items own material strength. Like you said, the ice should have crumbled due to the stress it was under.

Which means that we can't use the incident to measure his strength because he did NOT use raw power to carry it.
And that still doesn't explain why the ice melted that quickly.
If it WAS water Yoda is one frozen muppet.

Anyway, if you are discounting later sequels of the same character, does that not mean we have to exclude all of Yoda's fighting abilities we see in AotC because the OP specified TMP and therefore the fight scene with Dooku never happened? Then it's in the bag for Superman, since Yoda only hobbles out slowly in any of the other movies and could possibly match the Man of Steel in a fight.

I admit I did not think about it from that perspective.Hmmm...

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-09-12 07:33am

Batman wrote:Which means that we can't use the incident to measure his strength because he did NOT use raw power to carry it.
And that still doesn't explain why the ice melted that quickly.
If it WAS water Yoda is one frozen muppet.

First of all, it still would be a measure of strength, since it still requires a minimum of strength just lift the thing off the ground.

Secondly, you don't seem to understand Comic Book Physics. When a character lifts something, say, an aircraft carrier (something Superman has done before, though admittedly in the comics), the thing always holds together no matter what. Real physics would have had Superman tearing a hole in the side of the ship, because while he's applying all the force necessary to lift the ship, it's over the very tiny area of his hands. It's the same deal with the ice. I mean, there are more than just the lifting issue that is a problem with the lake freezing scene. After all, heat doesn't just disappear. When Superman used his Freeze Breath to freeze the lake, all that heat must have been pumped to somewhere else. Superman didn't spontaneously burst into flames from all that heat, nor did the vegetation around the lake. Welcome to Comic Book Physics. Just nod and move on.

I admit I did not think about it from that perspective.Hmmm...

I'd just as soon be more common sense approach, and make the assumption that Superman probably can do things he does in later movies (such as Freeze Breath), just like Yoda can still fight and movie like he does in AotC.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2003-09-12 07:57am

This is in reply to Gil, I'm trying to cut down on the quoting.

1. Of course it can be used to judge strength. Brainfart on my part.
Even if the stuff is held together by Fairy Dust, it weighs a hell of a lot.

2. I do understand comic book physics (I think). I was, however, under the impression that we're supposed to use real world physics in this debates whenever humanly possible.

I guess it would be easiest if we just went with Prequel Yoda vs Reeves movies Supes.
Which still leaves us with highly inconsistent power levels for Supes, though.

OT:What WOULD happen if you freeze the top three or so meters of a lake within a few seconds, and is that possible in the first place?

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-09-12 09:42am

2. I do understand comic book physics (I think). I was, however, under the impression that we're supposed to use real world physics in this debates whenever humanly possible.

You can't seperate the character from the world. Sometimes things just don't make sense by our standards. Not that so many poeple don't try anyway.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-09-12 09:45am

Batman wrote: 2. I do understand comic book physics (I think). I was, however, under the impression that we're supposed to use real world physics in this debates whenever humanly possible.

Suspension of disbelief.

You see the thing happening thus it does happen, you just find out how does this apply to mass/power/etc.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2003-09-12 10:06am

*puts on disbelief suspenders*

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-09-12 10:16am

Batman wrote:*puts on disbelief suspenders*

Watch out for falling bricks from the Wall of Ignorance

.

And Bored's question

I did specify S2, but Superman from S2 is the same as Superman from Superman 3, no?

Yes, because I doubt anyone is just going to use one form of yoda.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2003-09-12 02:28pm

Superman vs Yoda (or the Emperor) would be a cool fight.

Here's the best way to look at it.

Tactics

Superman's typical tactics:
Fly in, punch, kick, breath, lasereyes, toss stuff, and brawl.

Yoda's
Force Telekinetics to catch stuff, Force Speed and PreCog to avoid, Lightsaber to slice and dice.

Let's look at there powers against each other

Strength:
Superman wins. Yoda should NOT get into a boxing match with him.
Speed:
Debatable. I'd actually tie them at that. For the simple reason that Superman's (movie's) one example of insanely super speed was in space without any wind-resistance.

Heat Vision vs Lightsaber
Deflectable. Case in point, Zod's was reflected by a Big Rig mirror
However, Superman could cause alot of damage by tracking Yoda, perhaps forcing Yoda to stand still

Superbreath vs Lightsaber
Breath wins. Yoda would be advised to MOVE, and move fast.

Superbreath vs Jedi TK powers
Some Jedi have shown the ability to create Winds of beyond hurricane strength (Vader vs Luke in EP5, Streen in the Jedi academy books, the Force Witches of Daithimor, etc). It's not unreasonable to assume that Superman's breath vs Jedi TK could cancel each other out, or the TK would overwhelm the breath. After all, what's superman's lung capacity?

Super Body vs Lightsaber
Superman has been cut (Nuclear Man in Superman IV) by super-fingernails. A lightsaber would probably have the same effect on him as a standard sword does on a human.

Throwing Objects at each other
I agree, if Yoda is hit by a bus and can't stop it with the Force, he's probably a little pimp talking blood smear.
Unlike Superman however, Yoda can stop the thrown objects with the Force.
Yoda's TK powers are going to be insanely powerful.
Using the D20 System version of Star wars as a reference, Yoda as a Move Object (i.e Toss Buss) rating of 20.
New Jedi Order era Luke only has one of 10.
FYI: NJO era Luke has shoved over AT-AT's with the Force, crushed capital ship level weapons, moved artifically greated Black holes with his mind (all I can say to that is WTF?), and a bunch of other powerfuls things that make Superman's physical strength in the movies look pathetic, and he's only got half the power level Yoda has.
Case in point: It took the Ursala and the mutt one (Nod?) to throw the bus at superman. Luke gestured and shoved a AT-AT like it was nothing, and that's half Yoda's power with the force.

Yoda's biggest handicap in a battle with Superman would be his age. His battle with Dooku was fairly short and tired him out to a degree. Superman seems to be the energize bunny in fights, he just keeps going, and going, and going....

Unless Yoda can do mind powers on Superman, all Superman would have to do is keep launching distance attacks on Yoda until Yoda tires out.

(If I was Yoda and I could mind play Superman: I'm really a little kid.
Superman, can you could my flashlight while I tie my shoe. Force power on the lightsaber as Superman takes it and impale him through the heart)

It comes down to tactics.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-09-13 04:32am

Out of curiousity, when in EP5 did Vader and Luke cause a hurricane? They only fought inside the Cloud City, which, while large, isn't large enough for a hurricane to form in.

Damaramu · Post by **Damaramu** » 2003-09-13 11:28pm

I wonder if you could replace the focusing crystal (is there such a thing?) in a lightsaber with kryptonite?

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2003-09-14 09:12pm

Kryptonite enchanced Lightsabers?

OHHHH!!!!!

I want one!

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2003-09-15 08:57pm

Applying the strict Wongian method of sci-fi analysis to bullshit comics/movies that routinely crap on the simplest rules of physics will just make your brain melt. Flee while you can.

Kon_El · Post by **Kon_El** » 2003-09-17 05:49am

It could be argued that geting hit with the bus full of people caused him to rethink the situation as that was the point that he lured them away from the city.

In the comics superman has a aura that lets him lift heavy stuff that would normaly fall apart if held in such a manor. its recreation was how superboy has all of his powers. thus he can pick up the surface of the lake

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-09-19 09:50am

Gil Hamilton wrote:Out of curiousity, when in EP5 did Vader and Luke cause a hurricane? They only fought inside the Cloud City, which, while large, isn't large enough for a hurricane to form in.

I suspect they are referring to the strong winds after the window is breeched during the duel, but that was because of the winds in the core of the "tail", not by the force.