Destroying the One Ring

[Stormin]

Throwing the ring into a black hole or neutron star, if it dosn't destroy it, makes it impossible to retrieve at the least. And if someone actually had the force some of you are tlaking about to destroy the ring, they would have simply used it on mordor, and sauron, in the first place.
My opinion is that it had more to do with the place the ring was made, because there had to have been another volcano or source of heat equaling that of sauron's forge in a much safer direction.

[Rye]

Are there any other volcanoes that we know of in middle earth? Cos if so, perhaps they could've sent it on the backs of those giant birds? Away from mordor and sauron and the nazgul.

[Trogdor]

I haven't read the books in a while, but I'm pretty sure that Mt. Doom was the only volcano mentioned.

[Bartman]

There were other volcanos in the Silmarilion. But as Beleriand is now under water those would be inaccessable. There are also a number of landforms in the geography which would suggest the existance of volcanic activity. But these may be dormant or otherwise unsuitable. In any case none were mentioned.

[Stormbringer]

I haven't read the books in a while, but I'm pretty sure that Mt. Doom was the only volcano mentioned.

There are a number of volcanoes in Middle Earth. They don't matter much. It's clear that Oroduin is not a normal volcano by any means. It's far, far hotter than terrestrial volcano.

[lgot]

Really ? Why exactly ?

[Bartman]

It's clear that Oroduin is not a normal volcano by any means. It's far, far hotter than terrestrial volcano.

Do you have any evidence for this. And by evidence I mean from Tolkien not Peter Jackson. Please do not quote the movies.

[SirNitram]

It's clear that Oroduin is not a normal volcano by any means. It's far, far hotter than terrestrial volcano.

Do you have any evidence for this. And by evidence I mean from Tolkien not Peter Jackson. Please do not quote the movies.

How about the fact it can divert entirely liquid lava all the way to Barad Dur, it flowing on the surface, not in a lava tube? Or did you miss that in your railings against the evils of moviecraft?

[Bartman]

It's clear that Oroduin is not a normal volcano by any means. It's far, far hotter than terrestrial volcano.

Do you have any evidence for this. And by evidence I mean from Tolkien not Peter Jackson. Please do not quote the movies.

How about the fact it can divert entirely liquid lava all the way to Barad Dur, it flowing on the surface, not in a lava tube??

And I asked for a quote more than a page back on where, outside the non-canon movie, there is any evidence of lava flowing from Mt Doom to Barad-Dur. That was in the exact same post where I provided multiple quotes on the heat of the lava. Everything I could find in fact. These included lava being splashed onto the roof of the cavern where Frodo and Sam are when the ring falls to its destruction without harming them. And where they are able to outwalk over a fairly good distance what is explicitly called slow moving lava. Both of these strongly point to rather cool lava rather than some superheated lava. And no quote that I can find at all shows especialy hot lava. So I have provided my evidence, and no one has countered it.

Or did you miss that in your railings against the evils of moviecraft.

Hey I like the movies. I own the extended version DVDs for FotR and will be buying the same for TT and RotK when they come out. I have never once said that the movies are 'evil' or anything of the like. But that doesn't make them in any way canon or offical. They weren't made or approved by the original author or his estate. In Star Wars we accept the EU as official beacause we have numerous quotes from both Lucas and Lucasfilm officials (Sansweet) which have said that they are official. In Star Trek we don't accept equivalent materials because Paramount has said that such material is not official. Chirstopher has made his negative feelings about the films very well known in multiple interviews. And I just grabed this off of New Line's website Q and A about the films.

8. Is Christopher Tolkien or the Tolkien Estate involved in the films?

No. They don't want to get involved because their association with the film might be seen as an endorsement, making the film "official" somehow. This is a situation that Christopher Tolkien and the Tolkien Estate do not want.

So New Line also seems to think that the movies do not enjoy any sort of 'official' status. So why should we give it any?

[SirNitram]

Do you have any evidence for this. And by evidence I mean from Tolkien not Peter Jackson. Please do not quote the movies.

How about the fact it can divert entirely liquid lava all the way to Barad Dur, it flowing on the surface, not in a lava tube??

And I asked for a quote more than a page back on where, outside the non-canon movie, there is any evidence of lava flowing from Mt Doom to Barad-Dur. That was in the exact same post where I provided multiple quotes on the heat of the lava. Everything I could find in fact. These included lava being splashed onto the roof of the cavern where Frodo and Sam are when the ring falls to its destruction without harming them. And where they are able to outwalk over a fairly good distance what is explicitly called slow moving lava. Both of these strongly point to rather cool lava rather than some superheated lava. And no quote that I can find at all shows especialy hot lava. So I have provided my evidence, and no one has countered it.

'Slow moving' lava is indicative of a lack of heat? Perhaps you should look to the Hawaiian volcanos, whose lava is the hottest around, yet creeps down the street. The mere fact it was splashing like a liquid inside the mountain points to ridiculous heat, if it were a normal one, it would be forming a solid crust and behaving more vicously.

As for the Barad Dur quote, I don't know it myself, though I believe it's in the Simirillian.

Or did you miss that in your railings against the evils of moviecraft.

Hey I like the movies. I own the extended version DVDs for FotR and will be buying the same for TT and RotK when they come out. I have never once said that the movies are 'evil' or anything of the like. But that doesn't make them in any way canon or offical. They weren't made or approved by the original author or his estate. In Star Wars we accept the EU as official beacause we have numerous quotes from both Lucas and Lucasfilm officials (Sansweet) which have said that they are official. In Star Trek we don't accept equivalent materials because Paramount has said that such material is not official. Chirstopher has made his negative feelings about the films very well known in multiple interviews. And I just grabed this off of New Line's website Q and A about the films.

8. Is Christopher Tolkien or the Tolkien Estate involved in the films?

No. They don't want to get involved because their association with the film might be seen as an endorsement, making the film "official" somehow. This is a situation that Christopher Tolkien and the Tolkien Estate do not want.

So New Line also seems to think that the movies do not enjoy any sort of 'official' status. So why should we give it any?

My my, did I say we needed to? Did I even hint that? Why, no. I merely pointed out all you've seemed to do in this thread is rail against the idea of using the movie as evidence. Perhaps you coud provide some quotes describing the lava, beyond 'slow moving'.

[Bartman]

'Slow moving' lava is indicative of a lack of heat? Perhaps you should look to the Hawaiian volcanos, whose lava is the hottest around, yet creeps down the street. The mere fact it was splashing like a liquid inside the mountain points to ridiculous heat, if it were a normal one, it would be forming a solid crust and behaving more vicously.

In other words cooler lava is slower (more viscous) than hot lava? Seems like it would be "indicative of a lack of heat" to me. Besides in places where Hawaiian lava has not yet cooled it does move at great speeds, up to 60km per hour. It is only after it has cooled significantly that it slows.

My my, did I say we needed to? Did I even hint that? Why, no. I merely pointed out all you've seemed to do in this thread is rail against the idea of using the movie as evidence.

Sorry, it is a bit of a pet peeve of mine . I made a quick look over my posts in this thread and other than one line comments asking people to keep to canon sources and comments when these were challenged as to why the movies shouldn't be offical I've tried to avoid talking about the movies. If people would quit using the movies as evidence I would quit reminding people that they shouldn't be used for evidence. So, sorry I just don't see where all I've done is rail against the idea of using the movies as evidence. I have done that, but I have also made a number of other contributions to this thread.

And yes you have at least hinted at the idea of the movies being some degree of official. here are a few quotes. Emphasis mine.

As a brief aside, going by both descriptions of Mt. Doom and the visuals from the film, we aren't seeing lava like in Hawaii. Even there, a noticable crust forms as it moves. This is not what we saw at Oroduin, where the lava ran free and liquid.

I'm just trying to resolve the fact we see rock in a liquid state with no crust, it is, after all, an upper limit. As for how hot it was for them? I don't know; how high above the lava were they standing? They were definately drenched in sweat, but we don't know how high above the lava they were.

Now, we are currently in a situation where either 1) The Cracks Of Doom are excessively hot, far hotter than the hottest lava on Earth, to be to the point where the Ring can't be melted down in a forge. This has some support in the fact the lava is in a constantly liquid form in the movie. 2) The Rule Of Contagion is, indeed, in effect and the ring can only be un-made in the place it was made.

1) Sauron twisted Mt. Doom to be his forge. While he forged his master ring there, he also seems capable of easily diverting rivers of still-liquid lava around his kingdom (Seen in movie, mentioned he could divert lava to Barad Dur in the books.. Isn't Barad Dur over a hundred miles away? And it was still liquid? That's pretty hot), and there's nothing in Mordor to really fuel forges. It's entirely conceivable he was using Oroduin as primitive geothermal power to allow his minions to forge weapons by redirecting the flows.

Not to be uptight, but you sure seem to be using the movie as evidence to me. I have asked that if anyone has anyone has the actual quote where it is mentioned that "he could divert lava to Barad Dur in the books." And no one has been able to. I will check the Silmarillian as soon as I get a chance, to look for the quote you're thinking of. I am open to the idea that Mt Doom was an exceptional volcano. But the burden of proof lies on those who say the volcano was unusually hot and so far no one who is supporting that idea has provided any evidence.

Perhaps you coud provide some quotes describing the lava, beyond 'slow moving'.

Here you go. Both of these are from RotK after Frodo and Sam leave the Cracks of Doom. The reason I didn't provide fuller versions earlier is there really isn't much more to them than 'slow moving.'

" 'Very well, Sam. If you wish to go, I'll come,' said Frodo; and they rose and went slowly down the winding road; and even as they passed towards the Mountain's quaking feet, a great smoke and steam belched from the Sammath Naur, and the side of the cone was riven open, and a huge fiery vomit rolled in slow thunderous cascade down the eastern mountain-side."

"Behind them the Mountain was convulsed. Great rents opened in its side. Slow rivers of fire came down the long slopes towards them. Soon they would be engulfed. A rain of hot ash was falling."

[lgot]

As for the Barad Dur quote, I don't know it myself, though I believe it's in the Simirillian.

I would like to see the quote that would talk against the descrition of the heat the hobits suffered, which does not stand for a much heater than our vulcanos.

[Stormbringer]

As for the Barad Dur quote, I don't know it myself, though I believe it's in the Simirillian.

I would like to see the quote that would talk against the descrition of the heat the hobits suffered, which does not stand for a much heater than our vulcanos.

No, all it means is that the Hobbits were far enough away from the lava.

[lgot]

So, you mean there is no evidence , right ? The Sam,Frodo, Gollum last scene is the closest scene of the Vulcano and you say they are far away. You can not tell anything by that. Neither that it was much hotter...
(Actually, aren't then exactly near the cliff of the vulcano. Wait, there was just a quote that "soon the fire would engulf them" ...how is that far away ?)

[SirNitram]

I was referring to the post you quoted not suggesting the movie was canon. I've refrained from any claims of such since it was brought up, but whatever.

As for the lava being slow and hot, perhaps I should go slowly so the point is clear.

1) Hawaiian volcanos, hottest on Earth, emit lava that is slow moving, viscous, and can be outwalked. None the less, this is still 1100 C.

2) Mt. Doom's internal lava is splashing around like it's entirely liquid.

Ergo,

Mt. Doom is a fuckload hotter than the hottest volcano on Earth.


The description granted is interesting, suggesting the blast from the Ring was enough to create pyroclastic flows in parts of the mountain. Not a small accomplishment. I was hoping for any descriptions of the interior of the Cracks, however.

[lgot]

The description granted is interesting, suggesting the blast from the Ring was enough to create pyroclastic flows in parts of the mountain. Not a small accomplishment. I was hoping for any descriptions of the interior of the Cracks, however.

There is none since it was not a Interest of Tolkien to talk about the fire of the vulcano, but I am curious
No vulcano can create pyroclastic flows here ?

[El Moose Monstero]

I was referring to the post you quoted not suggesting the movie was canon. I've refrained from any claims of such since it was brought up, but whatever.

As for the lava being slow and hot, perhaps I should go slowly so the point is clear.

1) Hawaiian volcanos, hottest on Earth, emit lava that is slow moving, viscous, and can be outwalked. None the less, this is still 1100 C.

2) Mt. Doom's internal lava is splashing around like it's entirely liquid.

Ergo,

Mt. Doom is a fuckload hotter than the hottest volcano on Earth.


The description granted is interesting, suggesting the blast from the Ring was enough to create pyroclastic flows in parts of the mountain. Not a small accomplishment. I was hoping for any descriptions of the interior of the Cracks, however.

What about Carbonatite lavas? Not related to the subject, and I dont know much about them beyond the little we've been taught in lectures, but if I recall correctly, they are highly fluid lavas that can run at upto 70kph if they get stored up in a crater lake or caldera - this could be the sort of thing we're seeing at Mt. Doom.

[SirNitram]

What about Carbonatite lavas? Not related to the subject, and I dont know much about them beyond the little we've been taught in lectures, but if I recall correctly, they are highly fluid lavas that can run at upto 70kph if they get stored up in a crater lake or caldera - this could be the sort of thing we're seeing at Mt. Doom.

I've no information about it, so I can't really comment. Can you see if you can dig up some more, please?

[Darth Wong]

As for the Barad Dur quote, I don't know it myself, though I believe it's in the Simirillian.

I would like to see the quote that would talk against the descrition of the heat the hobits suffered, which does not stand for a much heater than our vulcanos.

Are you aware that air is such a lousy conductor of heat that it's considered an insulator? If they're far enough away from the lava (particularly if there is enough airflow to keep fresh air moving on their vantage point), it could be twice the normal temperature and they would survive.

Anyway, this doesn't change the fact that the LOTR fanboys are claiming that Sauron's power (as manifested in the Ring) should be assumed infinite until proven otherwise: an idiotic mentality.

[El Moose Monstero]

I think this page sums it up better than I can, although if there are any textual descriptions of Mt Dooms lavas as being the crustless orange sort as seen in the film version, then it isnt this type of lava anyway, but here is the link...

http://it.stlawu.edu/~cnya/lenweb3b.htm

I would have quoted some of it, but it's late and I'm both tired and lazy...

Special Features of this site - a mention for one of my lecturers and my uni. Whooo...

[Iceberg]

Since there's no evidence regarding where the upper limit of the Ring's heat capacity exists, the ONLY thing we can conclude is that it is indestructible by any means available to the characters of the books. (which is not even a conclusion, because Tolkien flat-out SAYS it).

That is ALL we can safely conclude, given the evidence at hand. Additionally, given the Ring's power to influence people's minds, it is highly questionable whether people would allow the attempt to be made.

[Darth Wong]

Since there's no evidence regarding where the upper limit of the Ring's heat capacity exists, the ONLY thing we can conclude is that it is indestructible by any means available to the characters of the books. (which is not even a conclusion, because Tolkien flat-out SAYS it).

Fair enough. However, the widespread conclusion that it is also indestructible by any means available to any form of technology anywhere is what I refer to as "idiotic", and that remains idiotic.

That is ALL we can safely conclude, given the evidence at hand.

No, we can conclude that until evidence is provided to the contrary, it is a known fact that heat does affect rings, given sufficient quantity. Therefore, if we can generate substantially more intense heat than anything available to the people of Middle Earth, we stand a good chance of destroying even the One Ring. Any other conclusion is based on:

A) the assumption that the One Ring is TOTALLY DIFFERENT rather than simply being the greatest of the rings (even though it is described as precisely that: the greatest of them all, not something totally alien to them all).

B) the assumption that a lower limit translates to infinity.

Additionally, given the Ring's power to influence people's minds, it is highly questionable whether people would allow the attempt to be made.

Oh, puh-lease. It's not that powerful. A group of men who are watching each other for signs of weakness and using technologies which take action quickly and at considerable distance from themselves would not be as vulnerable as a Hobbit walking around for months with the thing hanging around his neck.

[Bartman]

As for the lava being slow and hot, perhaps I should go slowly so the point is clear.

1) Hawaiian volcanos, hottest on Earth, emit lava that is slow moving, viscous, and can be outwalked. None the less, this is still 1100 C.

OK, I spent a couple of hours over at Volcano World. According to them front of a fast lava flow in Hawaii is about 5km/hr with a record of 10km/hr. For relatively cool flows the speed is frequently only a few meters per hour. However Hawaiian flows aren't apparently very fast. On many volcanoes lava flow speeds are around 20km/hr. And the record for a flow is about 60km/hr for a 1977 eruption at Nyiragongo. These are all for the movement of the front of the flow. Once a flow establishes a channel, lava frequently reaches speeds around 60km inside the channel.

A bit of further research reveals that temperature is not the only varible in determining lava speeds. Composition, slope steepnees, and flow volume all play vital roles. And as we know none of these, we really can't guess at the heat based on the speed of the flows at Mt Doom. So I was wrong for trying to do so.

2) Mt. Doom's internal lava is splashing around like it's entirely liquid.

Where did you get this? Here is the only description of the Mt Doom from the inside I could find anywhere.

Sam got up. He was dazed, and blood streaming from his head dripped in his eyes. He groped forward, and then he saw a strange and terrible thing. Gollum on the edge of the abyss was fighting like a mad thing with an unseen foe. To and fro he swayed, now so near the brink that almost he tumbled in, now dragging back, falling to the ground, rising, and falling again. And all the while he hissed but spoke no words.
The fires below awoke in anger, the red light blazed, and all the cavern was filled with a great glare and heat. Suddenly Sam saw Gollum's long hands draw upwards to his mouth; his white fangs gleamed, and then snapped as they bit. Frodo gave a cry, and there he was, fallen upon his knees at the chasm's edge. But Gollum, dancing like a mad thing, held aloft the ring, a finger still thrust within its circle. It shone now as if verily it was wrought of living fire.
'Precious, precious, precious!' Gollum cried. 'My Precious! O my Precious!' And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell. Out of the depths came his last wail Precious, and he was gone.
There was a roar and a great confusion of noise. Fires leaped up and licked the roof. The throbbing grew to a great tumult, and the Mountain shook.

The only descriptions are of the "fires awaking in anger" while Gollum and Frodo fight and the beginnings of an eruption immediately after the ring is tossed in. And neither of them are particularly useful descriptions, due to Tolkien's writing style. However if we take "fires leaped up and licked the roof" to meant that a gout of lava hit the roof of the Crack of Doom cavern (which I think is reasonable as Tolkien consistently referred to lava as fire), that still doesn’t mean that the lava is any more fluid than any other lava, as volcanoes can have lava fountains up to 400m tall.

Ergo,

Mt. Doom is a fuckload hotter than the hottest volcano on Earth.

Ergo,

Point one is irrelevant, point two is unproven, and the conclusion is premature.


As a side note I looked everywhere I could think of to find any other description of Mt Doom. The only Silmarillion reference is this:

Now Sauron prepared war against the Eldar and the Men of Westernesse, and the fires of the Mountain were wakened again. Wherefore seeing the smoke of Orodruin from afar, and perceiving that Sauron had returned, the Numenoreans named that mountain anew Amon Amarth, which is Mount Doom.

I also checked Unfinished Tales, Letters and relevant volumes of History of Middle Earth. None of them provide anything.

[SirNitram]

As for the lava being slow and hot, perhaps I should go slowly so the point is clear.

1) Hawaiian volcanos, hottest on Earth, emit lava that is slow moving, viscous, and can be outwalked. None the less, this is still 1100 C.

OK, I spent a couple of hours over at Volcano World. According to them front of a fast lava flow in Hawaii is about 5km/hr with a record of 10km/hr. For relatively cool flows the speed is frequently only a few meters per hour. However Hawaiian flows aren't apparently very fast. On many volcanoes lava flow speeds are around 20km/hr. And the record for a flow is about 60km/hr for a 1977 eruption at Nyiragongo. These are all for the movement of the front of the flow. Once a flow establishes a channel, lava frequently reaches speeds around 60km inside the channel.

So cooler volcanos can spew at speeds greater than the hottest. Yes, I know that. That's my point. Flow speed != Indication of temperature. I've been saying this over and over.

A bit of further research reveals that temperature is not the only varible in determining lava speeds. Composition, slope steepnees, and flow volume all play vital roles. And as we know none of these, we really can't guess at the heat based on the speed of the flows at Mt Doom. So I was wrong for trying to do so.

Your graceful concession is accepted with equal grace.

2) Mt. Doom's internal lava is splashing around like it's entirely liquid.

Where did you get this? Here is the only description of the Mt Doom from the inside I could find anywhere.

Sam got up. He was dazed, and blood streaming from his head dripped in his eyes. He groped forward, and then he saw a strange and terrible thing. Gollum on the edge of the abyss was fighting like a mad thing with an unseen foe. To and fro he swayed, now so near the brink that almost he tumbled in, now dragging back, falling to the ground, rising, and falling again. And all the while he hissed but spoke no words.
The fires below awoke in anger, the red light blazed, and all the cavern was filled with a great glare and heat. Suddenly Sam saw Gollum's long hands draw upwards to his mouth; his white fangs gleamed, and then snapped as they bit. Frodo gave a cry, and there he was, fallen upon his knees at the chasm's edge. But Gollum, dancing like a mad thing, held aloft the ring, a finger still thrust within its circle. It shone now as if verily it was wrought of living fire.
'Precious, precious, precious!' Gollum cried. 'My Precious! O my Precious!' And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell. Out of the depths came his last wail Precious, and he was gone.
There was a roar and a great confusion of noise. Fires leaped up and licked the roof. The throbbing grew to a great tumult, and the Mountain shook.

The only descriptions are of the "fires awaking in anger" while Gollum and Frodo fight and the beginnings of an eruption immediately after the ring is tossed in. And neither of them are particularly useful descriptions, due to Tolkien's writing style. However if we take "fires leaped up and licked the roof" to meant that a gout of lava hit the roof of the Crack of Doom cavern (which I think is reasonable as Tolkien consistently referred to lava as fire), that still doesn’t mean that the lava is any more fluid than any other lava, as volcanoes can have lava fountains up to 400m tall.

That's odd, because you explicitly stated lava was 'splashing' not two pages ago. So, are you BSing now, or BSing then? Because the two statements are self-contradictory.

These included lava being splashed onto the roof of the cavern where Frodo and Sam are when the ring falls to its destruction without harming them.

Ergo,

Mt. Doom is a fuckload hotter than the hottest volcano on Earth.

Ergo,

Point one is irrelevant, point two is unproven, and the conclusion is premature.


As a side note I looked everywhere I could think of to find any other description of Mt Doom. The only Silmarillion reference is this:

Now Sauron prepared war against the Eldar and the Men of Westernesse, and the fires of the Mountain were wakened again. Wherefore seeing the smoke of Orodruin from afar, and perceiving that Sauron had returned, the Numenoreans named that mountain anew Amon Amarth, which is Mount Doom.

I also checked Unfinished Tales, Letters and relevant volumes of History of Middle Earth. None of them provide anything.

[Bartman]

That's odd, because you explicitly stated lava was 'splashing' not two pages ago. So, are you BSing now, or BSing then? Because the two statements are self-contradictory.

These included lava being splashed onto the roof of the cavern where Frodo and Sam are when the ring falls to its destruction without harming them.

Well I'm trying not to BS now or then. Consider it a poor choice of words. The quote I was refering to was the "Fires leaped up and licked the roof" line I had quoted on page 3. Splash does seem to carry a connotation of something more liquid than I had intended, perhaps 'splatter' would have been better. But splash is used in describing volcanic eruptions. A quick google on "splashing lava" returns sites from vulcanoetna.com, volcanolive.com, nps.gov, geol.umd.edu, and noaa.gov. So according to all these sites spashing is a perfectly normal thing for lava to do.

But the basic question still remains. Do you have any evidence that would indicate that Mt Doom is an exceptionally hot volcano? You claim to have calculated a temperature of 2200-3000 C. How did you arrive at these figures? Certainly not just from the word splash.