Destroying the One Ring

[SirNitram]

Such is certainly not even suggested, even though you have one of the most potent wielders of thaumaturgy and gunpowder on Middle Earth in the party. Gandalf can't smoke the ring.

Ancalagon The Black, the legendary Wyrm who is specifically stated couldn't muster the heat, is stated to breath fire in the Similrillian, turning the humans caught in the cone of fire into ash. Assuming that's heat similar to modern cremation, that's 1600+ degrees C.

Actually, it's a good bit hotter than that - it takes two hours at 2200 degrees F to reduce a human body entire to ash. A brief moment at those temperatures will render a charred corpse, rather than a scattering of ashes.

Any idea how hot you need for that? I honestly wouldn't know how to start, it sure as hell ain't vaping.

[Iceberg]

Actually, it's a good bit hotter than that - it takes two hours at 2200 degrees F to reduce a human body entire to ash. A brief moment at those temperatures will render a charred corpse, rather than a scattering of ashes.

Any idea how hot you need for that? I honestly wouldn't know how to start, it sure as hell ain't vaping.

I don't even know where to BEGIN finding information like that.

[beyond hope]

Smithcraft could also be taken as meaning "superior knowledge of smelting and forging techniques." I'd also rate it as highly likely that Tolkein had no clue what the temperature of a volcano is compared to the temperature of a smelter (I didn't either until I looked them both up) and simply assumed that no furnace would reach the heat of Mount Doom. It was the fact that the ring doesn't get hot in the fire that made me wonder about it. Perhaps the enchantment which gives the ring it's unnatural durability could be treated as a "shield" which must be overpowered to break the enchantment (and destroy the ring?)

Perhaps if we found a way to reveserse the polarity of the shield's tetryon particles we could initate a nadion burst that would reduce the ring to its component atoms.

I will stab you so much.

As a brief aside, going by both descriptions of Mt. Doom and the visuals from the film, we aren't seeing lava like in Hawaii. Even there, a noticable crust forms as it moves. This is not what we saw at Oroduin, where the lava ran free and liquid. This is more comparable to the Mantle, where temperatures skyrocket to 3000 degrees C... A nice, comfortable upper limit for our discussion.

Umm, and the temperature on that ledge Elrond and Isildur are standing on would be what then? While I was searching for information on just how hot lava is, I came across a description from someone taking samples who described feeling radiant heat from an a'a lava flow while 200-400 meters above it. The heat from a slower-moving pahoehoe flow is still supposed to be sufficient to raise blisters if you linger after taking a sample. And they're standing around in a caldera three times as hot?

~Edited to fix quoting.

[SirNitram]

I will stab you so much.

As a brief aside, going by both descriptions of Mt. Doom and the visuals from the film, we aren't seeing lava like in Hawaii. Even there, a noticable crust forms as it moves. This is not what we saw at Oroduin, where the lava ran free and liquid. This is more comparable to the Mantle, where temperatures skyrocket to 3000 degrees C... A nice, comfortable upper limit for our discussion.

Umm, and the temperature on that ledge Elrond and Isildur are standing on would be what then? While I was searching for information on just how hot lava is, I came across a description from someone taking samples who described feeling radiant heat from an a'a lava flow while 200-400 meters above it. The heat from a slower-moving pahoehoe flow is still supposed to be sufficient to raise blisters if you linger after taking a sample. And they're standing around in a caldera three times as hot?

I'm just trying to resolve the fact we see rock in a liquid state with no crust, it is, after all, an upper limit. As for how hot it was for them? I don't know; how high above the lava were they standing? They were definately drenched in sweat, but we don't know how high above the lava they were.

[Bartman]

I'm just trying to resolve the fact we see rock in a liquid state with no crust, it is, after all, an upper limit. As for how hot it was for them? I don't know; how high above the lava were they standing? They were definately drenched in sweat, but we don't know how high above the lava they were.

But that doesn't really count does it? The book is canon. The films are not. And we know that Frodo and Sam survived fairly close exposure to the stuff. They were able to enter the Cracks of Doom without even a mention of extreme heat. And they were later surrounded by the stuff once the mountain uncorked. So it can't have been anywhere near that hot.

[Sam Or I]

At what point does lava become vapor? right below that point would be the upperlimit of Mnt Doom.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Bah, I'm at work and don't have my old textbooks. Geophysicist, you know.

First, lava really doesn't vaporize. It turns to ash, and it outgasses SO2 and CO2 and water at superheated temperatures, but the vaporization of magma would be the same as the vaporization of rock.

Second, Mike is right, you'll never see a "lava pool" of glowing liquid rock. It always forms a crust. Even if what we saw inside Mt. Doom was magma (really, there's no difference between magma and lava save that lava is on the surface) there's no natural mechanism except ridiculous heat that would keep it fluid. At that heat, unless Elrond and Isildur were several kilometers above the lava, they would not have to survive.

I think we're going to have to make one of two assumptions:
1. There is an innate magic around Mt. Doom which allows the lava to remain at high temperatures while not actually radiating deadly heat, or
2. Elrond and Isildur had a magic protection which kept them from dying.


Incidentally, Mt. Doom is a rhyolitic volcano, more prone to high temperatures and violent eruptions than basaltic, Hawaii-style volcanoes.

Any volcanology questions?

[Stormbringer]

But that doesn't really count does it? The book is canon. The films are not. And we know that Frodo and Sam survived fairly close exposure to the stuff. They were able to enter the Cracks of Doom without even a mention of extreme heat. And they were later surrounded by the stuff once the mountain uncorked. So it can't have been anywhere near that hot.

How close? We know they were able to get into the caldera but we have no idea how close. If they were a couple hundred feet above the lava the heat has time to disappate.

We know that the lava is hotter than average if it'll flow miles from Orodriun to just short of Barad-dur while still liquid.

[beyond hope]

But that doesn't really count does it? The book is canon. The films are not. And we know that Frodo and Sam survived fairly close exposure to the stuff. They were able to enter the Cracks of Doom without even a mention of extreme heat. And they were later surrounded by the stuff once the mountain uncorked. So it can't have been anywhere near that hot.

Does Return of the King say how close the lava was to them, or will that have to wait for the release of the movie for some kind of clarification?

[Slartibartfast]

Such is certainly not even suggested, even though you have one of the most potent wielders of thaumaturgy and gunpowder on Middle Earth in the party. Gandalf can't smoke the ring.

Ancalagon The Black, the legendary Wyrm who is specifically stated couldn't muster the heat, is stated to breath fire in the Similrillian, turning the humans caught in the cone of fire into ash. Assuming that's heat similar to modern cremation, that's 1600+ degrees C.

Actually, it's a good bit hotter than that - it takes two hours at 2200 degrees F to reduce a human body entire to ash. A brief moment at those temperatures will render a charred corpse, rather than a scattering of ashes.

And usually crematories aren't hot enough to turn bones into ash, these have to be grounded into dust and then mixed with the ash. Not that we're discussing if the dragons leave the bones or not... I suppose not.

[lgot]

CaptainChewbacca:

1. There is an innate magic around Mt. Doom which allows the lava to remain at high temperatures while not actually radiating deadly heat, or

The Mt.Doom was indeed magical, Sauron "twisted" its nature to have it always a furnace. Tolkien actually does not say how close anyone was, so that must just mean that they are just far enough to throw the ring and not be burned.


Master of Ossus:

To me, it's always been clear that Mount Doom was the hottest place on Middle Earth, and that the matter was only applying enough heat to destroy the Ring.

Elrond, Gandalf or Galadriel never did any calculations about the effect of heat over the ring - Gandalf only knew about it from Ilsudur'notes - or even about Mt.Doom temperatures. It is clear the do not base they assumption about how to destroy the ring about the production of heat - after all they never tryied to apply any temperature. Of course you can say they are naive and believed some lie that Sauron spreed when he used the ring. but that is other matter.

Since the other Great Rings could all be destroyed if eaten by a dragon (and, in fact, some of the dwarven rings were),

Actually, Only the Dwarven ring could be destroyed that way and the only reason they knew about that is because this happened. The Dwarven and human rings are not produced the same way of the one or elf rings. That must explain why the dwarven rings can be destroyed by Dragons. In Tolkien Logic's a more powerful being can undo what a less powerful being did. Sauron is more powerful than the dragon, then he is able to do something dragons could not undo. This is the same logic of the ring being able to be destroyed by better smithcraft. It is a reference to the Valars (they had a smithcraft valar after all). This reference is also supported by Gandalf and Elrond, during the council, They state that the Valars are able to destroy the ring - besides the Mt.Doom option.

In the end it only turns in two options, either Gandalf and Cia are wrong because they are misinformated or lacked information or they found out a relation between the place of making due some magical nature and its destruction. Since it is extremelly unlikely there is any evidence to be found to settle this , the topic will end like the one before (that you closed if i remember) and be started again when the third movie comes up...

[Howedar]

And again, we're really talking about undoing ancient and fell magics, not just destroying a piece of metal. The One Ring was "quite cool" after having just been snatched from a wood fire (about 500-800 degrees F); a small ring of metal should have been quite hot at that point.

So it has very high specific heat. Whats your point?

The Ring could be unmade at Mt. Doom not because Orodruin was extraordinarily hot (although it was), it could be unmade at Mt. Doom because that was where it was made in the first place; the place where Sauron poured into the Ring his evil, malice and drive to dominate all life.

By all means, support this with passages from the books.

[Sea Skimmer]

We know that the lava is hotter than average if it'll flow miles from Orodriun to just short of Barad-dur while still liquid.

Actually it's really a matter of how much insulation it has for the trip.

[Iceberg]

And again, we're really talking about undoing ancient and fell magics, not just destroying a piece of metal. The One Ring was "quite cool" after having just been snatched from a wood fire (about 500-800 degrees F); a small ring of metal should have been quite hot at that point.

So it has very high specific heat. Whats your point?

In the movie, Gandalf casts the envelope into a just-lit fire and retrieves the Ring after only a few seconds; however, in the novel, Gandalf casts the Ring into a roaring hearth and leaves it there for several minutes (one-volume edition, pp. 48-9). The ring is still quite cool. There's no metal I can think of with a specific heat high enough that it can spend several minutes in a roaring fire and still be cool enough to touch afterward.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Osmium?

Frodo: Uh... the ring is too heavy!

[Howedar]

In the movie, Gandalf casts the envelope into a just-lit fire and retrieves the Ring after only a few seconds; however, in the novel, Gandalf casts the Ring into a roaring hearth and leaves it there for several minutes (one-volume edition, pp. 48-9). The ring is still quite cool. There's no metal I can think of with a specific heat high enough that it can spend several minutes in a roaring fire and still be cool enough to touch afterward.

And there's no metal I know that can make little red letters glow on it.

You're going nowhere with this...

In a greater sense, though, who fucking cares?

Like I said before, it's as much missing the point to try to calc the amount of energy needed to melt the One Ring as it would be missing the point to try to calc the number of days spent during Huck Finn's trip down the Mississippi.

You say that a lot.

Care to provide evidence that it is more than just heat that melts the rings?

[Darth Gojira]

It also seems invulnerable to minor corrosion. I'm not sure if that could protect it from a condensed sulfate solution, though.

[Iceberg]

It also seems invulnerable to minor corrosion. I'm not sure if that could protect it from a condensed sulfate solution, though.

Given a lack of direct evidence, but indirectly inferring from its heat resistance and survival of three millennia of mostly harsh treatment with no visible sign of wear (Isildur's Bane spent 2500 years being buffeted about the rivers, streams and fish gullets of Middle-Earth, another 500 or so in the hands of Smeagol/Gollum and only the last half-century in the gentle care of the Hobbit, Bilbo Baggins), the answer is a firm "probably."

[Stormbringer]

We know that the lava is hotter than average if it'll flow miles from Orodriun to just short of Barad-dur while still liquid.

Actually it's really a matter of how much insulation it has for the trip.

According to the description there was no lava tube or crust to insulate it. It was traveling all that way open to the sky to judge from the description.


The only time you get flows that long in real life is with a lava tube.

[SirNitram]

Because it's magic. The ring isn't made out of gold- it is made out of gold and a SHIT LOT of extremely ancient and powerful magic. The magic doesn't care how hot the ring is, it seems to ignore all outside influences.

The ring is tossed into Mt. Doom because that breaks the magic, not because it is hot enough to melt the metal.

Now answer me this: Is that explicitly stated anywhere by Tolkien, or is it just a bunch of fanwank bullshit?


Hint: it's the latter.

Posts like this are why this thread is under careful watch.

Now, we are currently in a situation where either 1) The Cracks Of Doom are excessively hot, far hotter than the hottest lava on Earth, to be to the point where the Ring can't be melted down in a forge. This has some support in the fact the lava is in a constantly liquid form in the movie. 2) The Rule Of Contagion is, indeed, in effect and the ring can only be un-made in the place it was made.

Both have problems(Oh, the fact people are standing nearby the entirely liquid lava without burning to death), but any flamefests that crop up will be HOS'd.

[SirNitram]

Alright, slight tangents here, but.

1) Sauron twisted Mt. Doom to be his forge. While he forged his master ring there, he also seems capable of easily diverting rivers of still-liquid lava around his kingdom(Seen in movie, mentioned he could divert lava to Barad Dur in the books.. Isn't Barad Dur over a hundred miles away? And it was still liquid? That's pretty hot), and there's nothing in Mordor to really fuel forges. It's entirely conceivable he was using Oroduin as primitive geothermal power to allow his minions to forge weapons by redirecting the flows.

2) More evidence to shielded Cracks Of Doom: When the One Ring is dropped into the lava with Gollum firmly attached, there's a big-ass explosion, yet both Hobbits survive the heat and blast, Frodo while rolling around from having lost a finger.

Said explosion is also why I'm not trying to destroy the One Ring with a plasma torch. Do we really want to make this thing go KABOOM in a small labratory? Any volunteers?

Oh yes.. One last point. Why is it widely assumed that if you melt down the Ring, it's power will vanish? Would you not get a little pool of gold with the Will and Soul of Sauron still in it?

Just the insane ramblings of two people near midnight.

[SirNitram]

I think the most important fact is that Gandalf, Elrond , etc do not consider trying to find another source of heat or even produce one. They do not even test the resistanse of the ring. This clear show up they believe that only MtDoom could do the job and they have no idea neither calculations of heat, so that was not the reason they picked up.
Therefore it is left either they are stupid to believe such thing or either they are right. Of course thinking them as stupid is just basead on the idea they believe in magic, so they hold up such illogical stuff without any testing for no other reason than "faith" and does not goes well with Tolkien's intentions which was not base his story in a bunch of naive dudes with wrong ideas about the world. I bit odd aproach but yet possible. But also impossible to be proved.

It should be noted that Mt. Doom is looking like it's hotter than any place in the real world; this would make it difficult to find another place, short of running to the Valar across the sea.

[lgot]

i would note also that they did not had any idea of how Mt.Doom was looking like to make their conclusions, so it had few influence there.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Tolkien explicitly stated that the One Ring could not be broken save by either someone with superior smithcraft to the Dark Lord, or by returning it to the place where it was forged. The Dark Lord is no mere mortal - he is a fallen angel, formerly one of the Maiar (others of the Maiar are the Istari, the Five Wizards: Gandalf the White (formerly the Grey), Saruman the Many-Coloured (formerly the White), Radagast the Brown, Pallandro and Allatar the Blue) and the most powerful servant of the ancient and fell god Melkar, who is called Morgoth. Even Saruman the White, most powerful and wisest of the Istari, could not match Sauron, before he was corrupted by the Dark Lord. That leaves bringing it back to Mount Doom. And since, as others have mentioned, the flames of a medieval forge were in fact hotter than the heart of the hottest volcano, that leaves the magical symbolism of bringing an artifact back to whence it came to be destroyed.

Where did you find the names of the blue wizards? BTW, Morgoth was a Valar. Morgoth and Melkar are the same, but Morgoth is his earthly manifestation.

[LadyTevar]

Tolkien explicitly stated that the One Ring could not be broken save by either someone with superior smithcraft to the Dark Lord, or by returning it to the place where it was forged. The Dark Lord is no mere mortal - he is a fallen angel, formerly one of the Maiar (others of the Maiar are the Istari, the Five Wizards: Gandalf the White (formerly the Grey), Saruman the Many-Coloured (formerly the White), Radagast the Brown, Pallandro and Allatar the Blue) and the most powerful servant of the ancient and fell god Melkar, who is called Morgoth. Even Saruman the White, most powerful and wisest of the Istari, could not match Sauron, before he was corrupted by the Dark Lord. That leaves bringing it back to Mount Doom. And since, as others have mentioned, the flames of a medieval forge were in fact hotter than the heart of the hottest volcano, that leaves the magical symbolism of bringing an artifact back to whence it came to be destroyed.

Where did you find the names of the blue wizards? BTW, Morgoth was a Valar. Morgoth and Melkar are the same, but Morgoth is his earthly manifestation.

IIRC, the names of the other two wizards (Blue and Red, but I forget who was which) are in the Simillarion. They went West and South, into the areas that Melkor/Morgoth and Sauron later conquered. None knew the fates of the two wizards, but IIRC it was assumed they were either killed by Sauron or subverted as Saruman was.