Legato Bluesummers (Trigun) vs Yoda

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-07-12 08:57pm

Legato from Trigun, an anime series, versus our favorite green muppet. Who wins?

For those who don't know Trigun, here's some notable info about Legato:

He has Telekinetics

One time, he walked a dead guy an unknown distance to Vash, made the dead guy say a few words, then shoot himself. This indicates he has enough control to move individual muscles and coordinate them to a degree.

He did the same as above to two kids, except they were alive, and they didn't know what happened during that time, which probably indicates that he pinched a blood vessel to make them go unconscious then manipulated them

He can do the same to entire crowds, as in episode 24.

For the above, Legato also seems to be telepathic but he only seems to be able to talk to people and nothing more, given that in many scenes where he controlled people he was obviously using TK only, no TP.

He's good enough with his TK that he can control entire village-fuls of people, making them lose consciousness, drop what they were doing and leave town spontaneously, all at the same time.

He's also accurate enough that he controlled a guy and made him purposely clip Vash's shoulder with a rifle.

At one point Vash shot Legato several times and the bullets seemed to "bounce" off, hinting that Legato probably used his TK to deflect them all.

So anyway, the two of them face off in a forest-like environment. Yoda has his lightsabre.

Who wins?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-07-12 11:23pm

I admittedly havent watched Trigun in awhile, but how do we know it isn't telepathic control? As I recall, he was controlling the Gung-ho Guns.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-07-12 11:26pm

As stated in the AoTC novelization, there are two levels of battle when Jedi fight, the physical level and the telekinetic level. Jedi use the Force to inhibit the movements of others, so it would make sense that they would be able to use the force to resist this kind of thing as well. I think Yoda's TK outdoes Legato's and he wins.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-07-12 11:36pm

It might or might not. I remember the scene where he controls an entire village - If it IS TK, thats a not insignificant feat.

IIRC they probably had fewer than a thousand people (maybe a few hundred or a few dozen - as I said. Estimate maybe 70 kg per person average (thats actualyl somewhat generous, as not everyone weighs the same - some men weigh more, but oddsa re most women and definitely children will weigh less... so its a rough estimate) and maybe move around 1/3 a meter (say for a fairly fast walk) to a meter a second (for a moderately fast run)

Taken collectively (Say 1,000 people, 70 kg, and maybe 1 meter per second) That would be approximately comparable to Force-acceleration incidents (TPM) or certain TK incidents (Yoda lifting luke's X-wing in TESB, though this actually has potential to be higher, a few other TK incidents in novels like Darksaber.)

As I said though, this depends on whether or not it really WAS TK in some of those large-group incidents rather than TP - I dont recall whether or not it was indicated which was being used - so clarification will be appreciated.

As for the bullet scene - assuming that its not an example of high-technology, thats not neccessarily a huge feat there - Bullets don't have much momentum (and IIRC Vash's gun was chambered for the .45 Long colt caliber)

Mutant Headcrab · Post by **Mutant Headcrab** » 2003-07-13 12:27am

Hmmm....It all depends on whether or not Yoda would be affected by Legato's abilities. I don't know about you McLeod, but I find the fact that he had complete control over that amount of people to be incredibly impressive. I don't recall any incident in Star Wars in which a Jedi could take that kind of control.

In regards to his powers, one thing I have noticed is this. Whenever Legato forces someone to do something and their still conscious, they often times break into a panic about the fact that they have lost control of certain limbs ie: they begin to perform some kind of act, but they can't stop themselves, even if others try to forcibly stop them. Im not sure if this will help witht he TK/TP thing or not.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-07-13 12:37am

It's been a while since I last watched Trigun, but I never got the impression that Legato used TK. IIRC, he got that priest guy to shoot himself, not TK the gun(s) away then shoot him with it (and it looked like it was his body, not the gun(s), that was being manipulated).

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-07-13 01:10am

Mutant Headcrab wrote:Hmmm....It all depends on whether or not Yoda would be affected by Legato's abilities. I don't know about you McLeod, but I find the fact that he had complete control over that amount of people to be incredibly impressive. I don't recall any incident in Star Wars in which a Jedi could take that kind of control.

Joruus C'baoth, clone of a Jedi MAster, was able to exert control over the entire complement of a Star Destroyer and control their actions without much apparent effort - and suggested he could do it for days on end, and even control other ships. He also has controlled/enhanced the abilities of entire task forces (multiple ones at that) repeatedly over light years. The Emperor was even more powerful, reputedly (He could augment most or all of the entire Imperial fleet - or at the absolute minimum, the 20 so Star Destroyers and the Executor at Endor.)

In regards to his powers, one thing I have noticed is this. Whenever Legato forces someone to do something and their still conscious, they often times break into a panic about the fact that they have lost control of certain limbs ie: they begin to perform some kind of act, but they can't stop themselves, even if others try to forcibly stop them. Im not sure if this will help witht he TK/TP thing or not.

Depends. You can control your body without a massive external force acting on you. If Legato can subvert conscious control of the body and make it move as he wishes, that would not be TK. That is why I am asking whether or not Trigun made it clear whether it was one or the other.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-07-13 01:49am

On whether it's TK or TP:

Remember that one scene where the priest guy confronts Legato+Midvalley, and Legato puts him in that really painful position?

Is that possible or easy for one to do on their own?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-07-13 03:20am

Could be either or. I seem to recall him in fact showing some TK ability... I am just questioning which power he uses when, or if it was conclusively proven to be one or another in a given example.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-07-13 10:26pm

If it is TP do we have any indication of what can stop him from controlling a person's mind? It sounds leagues out of the "can only effect the weak-willed" Jedis MC.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-07-14 12:45am

Darth_Shinji wrote:It sounds leagues out of the "can only effect the weak-willed" Jedis MC.

You do realise that the quote is:

The Force has a strong influence on the weak minded.

... And not:

The Force only has influence on the weak minded.

Larz · Post by **Larz** » 2003-07-14 01:35am

I think Legato would stand a serious chance against Yoda. In "Sin," it seems that Legato was able to even yield some control over Vash by forcing Vash to aim his gun at him. Also, in "Fifth Moon", Legato was able to force Vash into unleashing his 'angel arm.' Now the Vash character seems to be a very strong-willed (relativly speaking) person (or plant).

And to resolve the TK/TP thing, he seems to possess both. He clearly has telepathy as shown in "Diablo" when he holds a conversation with Vash via telepathy (which makes me wonder if Vash in turn has slight TP powers... or if he just knew that if he spoke in his mind then Legato would hear him). Also in that episode, Legato also shows remote viewing abilities when he comments on Vash's look of horror (could be wrong, have to watch it again...). And as mentioned, Legato was able to remote control a human with no blood in him.

The only downside to Legato... his weapon is people. Yoda may very well be able to resist Legatos control (for sake of argument and no proof, I'm going to say that Yoda doesn't have Joruus C'baoth's ability).

In all, armed yoda, after some mind wars, slices and dices Legato. Give Legato a town and he may just get yoda, if not turn him to the darkside as yoda is forced to slice down troves of innocents.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-07-14 10:55am

Lord of the Farce wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:It sounds leagues out of the "can only effect the weak-willed" Jedis MC.
You do realise that the quote is:
The Force has a strong influence on the weak minded.
... And not:
The Force only has influence on the weak minded.

It can be though of that way. And even if we were going to say it could effect stronger wills, The will of the subject does indeed have a tremondous say in the matter. Which might not be the case of Bluesummers.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-07-14 10:57am

It has in all characteristics to be mental manipulation. The people were aware of being unable to control their bodies in some instances, and not in others, given Lagato's Sadistic nature, it was entirely fitting with his actions, given the first stranger incident he didn't look already dead, but like Lagato had forced marched him through the desert beyond the point where the normal body would have succumbed.

He would make whole towns leave, and print the word "Knives" as a means of manipulating Vash.

The Drunkard Kid · Post by **The Drunkard Kid** » 2003-07-14 12:37pm

I'm fairly certain that Vash's (and thus Legato's) power is mainly telepathic in nature, with the ability to communicate with plants (Power-plants, not geraniums, that is). When we see a Jedi convince a guy to rip out his own heart while still allowing him to regain concious knowledge of what he's doing (ie: the guy was actively trying to stop his arm from tearing out his still beating heart), then it'd be comparable.

In the anime version, Legato managed to manipulate that corpse to deliver a message to Vash from several miles away, which would probably require TK, though he, Vash and Knives don't tend to use that aspect of their powers enough to know it's limitations. Anime Legato also mind controlled Vash enough to keep him from removing his gun from his (Legato's) forehead, and forced him to draw and fire the Angel Arm from outside of city limits (Legato was probably well outside, possibly in another city altogether; Vash was in the center of it, more or less), though Vash did manage to redirect his shot. Anime Vash has enough willpower to be considered outright superhuman, since he broke free of the Demon's Eye paralysis, which isn't supposed to be humanly possible.

As to his chances against Yoda, since I've never read the novels, all I can say is that movie Jedi never showed anywhere near that level of telepathic power, so Yoda would *probably* end up shoving his lightsaber in various uncomfortable areas on his own person...

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-07-14 11:19pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:It can be though of that way. -snip

Yes, it can be thought of that way... But that doesn't make the statement "can only effect the weak-willed" any less inaccurate.

The Drunkard Kid wrote:Anime Vash has enough willpower to be considered outright superhuman, since he broke free of the Demon's Eye paralysis, which isn't supposed to be humanly possible.

Vash isn't human, so "isn't supposed to be humanly possible" doesn't mean much, does it?

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-07-15 12:06am

Lord of the Farce wrote:
Darth_Shinji wrote:It can be though of that way. -snip
Yes, it can be thought of that way... But that doesn't make the statement "can only effect the weak-willed" any less inaccurate.

Conceed, I was wrong as to put it as far as the original quote. That is however, how this board normaly takes it for granted as implying.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-07-15 08:40am

Anime Vash has enough willpower to be considered outright superhuman, since he broke free of the Demon's Eye paralysis, which isn't supposed to be humanly possible.

The Demon Eye had a hypnotic effect. All it took was enough pain, but Dominique never let anyone last that long in a fight.