Rajaat vs Eliminster or Raistlin, or any other mage,

[Shrykull]

Not sure if any of you are familiar with this mage/psionicist from dark sun/athas, who invented more than one type of magic, was the first magic user on the planet, and who could kill a 30th level dragon, just with his essence (the black ooze crap) and several other 20th level psionicists/sorcerors with a single strike, not to mention putting one into eternal confinement. He could also mind control them all at the same time, even though they were 20th plus level psions themselves.

[TheFeniX]

One problem: you talking about a Forgotten Realms character. These are the biggest munchkins ever. Unfortunately, the Dark Sun area didn't interest me too much, so I don't know a whole lot about this character, but when Elminster was still a young mage he killed a demi-god. Granted, Dark Sun Dragons are almost God's themselves, it would be tricky.

Of the mage battles I've read in D&D books, even lower level mages can become truimphant with the randomness of battle.

Elminster is a Fighter/Thief/Mage/Psionisist/Cleric/God knows what else, and of the reading I've done of him in his later years, he never really showed what he's truely capable of. But,after "Spellfire" I began to hate FR so much I quit reading it, and switched to Planescape, so I lost track of his exploits.

[The Yosemite Bear]

First of all my Bard from Arduin can proabably deal with him, being a theif, an fighter, a Mage, Technolgist, and a Psionicist. Oh he's also capable of casting Dragon Magic, and High Magic (Don't ask he's a funny sort of half elf...)

[Shrykull]

[quote="TheFeniX"]One problem: you talking about a Forgotten Realms character. These are the biggest munchkins ever. Unfortunately, the Dark Sun area didn't interest me too much, so I don't know a whole lot about this character, but when Elminster was still a young mage he killed a demi-god. Granted, Dark Sun Dragons are almost God's themselves, it would be tricky.

Of the mage battles I've read in D&D books, even lower level mages can become truimphant with the randomness of battle.

Elminster is a Fighter/Thief/Mage/Psionisist/Cleric[quote]

psionicist and cleric, where'd you get that from? I knew he was a fighter/mage/thief but not the other two.

[Shrykull]

First of all my Bard from Arduin can proabably deal with him, being a theif, an fighter, a Mage, Technolgist, and a Psionicist. Oh he's also capable of casting Dragon Magic, and High Magic (Don't ask he's a funny sort of half elf...)

what's a technologist is it 3E stuff? And so were the SK's capable of casting dragon magic aka-10th level spells it didn't help em against Rajaat.

[Archaic`]

psionicist and cleric, where'd you get that from? I knew he was a fighter/mage/thief but not the other two.

Not sure about the Psionicist, since it's been so long since I read the Elminister series of books, and I'd assume it was documented in there, however I believe "Elmara" (sp?) served as a Priestess of the original Mystra in MoaM, correct?

[SirNitram]

Elminster did, indeed, serve as a cleric, and yes, Mystra still grants him those spells.

This guy does sound pretty big and bad, but I don't think I need to bring in Netheril's posse. I really don't know most of Dark Sun, though.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Fighter/Rouge 2/ Cleric of Mystra 3/Wizard 24/Archmage 5

I read Crown of Fire.. and loved it. How can someone not like FR?

[The Yosemite Bear]

Ok, The Half Dragon Bard character is from ARDUIN which is an offshoot of Chainmail/D&D. Basically allows a number of things that AD&D didn't untill later editions. Note because of Clarke's 3rd law, Advanced tech, is just another form of magic in Ardiun, being a Bard I never master any discipline, thus while I can build bombs, guns, and mirrored sunglasses, blasters & lightsabers are beyond my abilities. (But not beyond the abilities of say a 30th level Technologist)

[Alyrium Denryle]

I usually master one discipline.

Fear the wrat of my level 48 wizard!

[Alyrium Denryle]

*edit: Wrath not wrat

[TheFeniX]

psionicist and cleric, where'd you get that from? I knew he was a fighter/mage/thief but not the other two.

Not sure about the Psionicist, since it's been so long since I read the Elminister series of books, and I'd assume it was documented in there, however I believe "Elmara" (sp?) served as a Priestess of the original Mystra in MoaM, correct?

In the beginning of Elminster: Making of a Mage, when he's thrown off the cliff by the Dragon Rider, he goes into detail about how he can move things with sheer force of will. It's how he survived falling over 50 feet onto rocks. Granted I never read into where he developed his powers in that area more, you never know.

Yes, and when he was a woman he was a priestess of Mystra. Although, they have many mage-like spells, he was still a priest(ess).

[Alyrium Denryle]

Shit, thats right... I forgot about that part....

[Edi]

In D&D terms, Rajaat was about as big a badass as there is. Merely his release from confinement was enough to alter climate planet-wide, change the color of the sun from red to blue. This when he was still only coming through and vulnerable, a shadow of what he was at the heitght of his power. He not only was the first wizard of Athas, but he basically created magic there. At full power, I'd say he pretty thoroughly wipes the floor with Elminster et al, and I wouldn't give the Netherese very good odds either. Sure, FR is the endall of munchkin worlds with a plethora of munchkin characters, but Rajaat was a law unto himself, really.

It's a shame that Zeb Cook throughly fucked Dark Sun over after a good beginning, it had real promise but went quickly downhill due to mismanagement.

Edi

[Alyrium Denryle]

WHat are you talking about FR being munchkins... I far outstripe any of them....

[SirNitram]

In D&D terms, Rajaat was about as big a badass as there is. Merely his release from confinement was enough to alter climate planet-wide, change the color of the sun from red to blue. This when he was still only coming through and vulnerable, a shadow of what he was at the heitght of his power. He not only was the first wizard of Athas, but he basically created magic there. At full power, I'd say he pretty thoroughly wipes the floor with Elminster et al, and I wouldn't give the Netherese very good odds either. Sure, FR is the endall of munchkin worlds with a plethora of munchkin characters, but Rajaat was a law unto himself, really.

And the Netherese are a universe unto themselves, or so they would say. So, let's see about this guys actual doings.

1) Creates magic. Fair enough. Except the Netherese have the source of all magic(The Nether Scrolls), and one of their number actually replaced the Goddess Of Magic, albeit temporarily.

2) Climate changes. Well, the Netherese turned thousands of miles of glaciers into a tropical paradise and then set cities in the sky to fly around.

Fire off some more things he did, I'll quantify them... They won't really match the Neth, though. These people had houseservants who filched entire layers out of the Outer Planes and made them personal Demiplanes(Sword Play novel). Best of all, the Neth don't need to drain water...

[SHODAN]

And the Netherese are a universe unto themselves, or so they would say.

And the multiverse would fill from pitying laughter.

1) Creates magic. Fair enough. Except the Netherese have the source of all magic(The Nether Scrolls),

Hardly all magic.

and one of their number actually replaced the Goddess Of Magic, albeit temporarily.

The Unmaker of the Weave is not intrinsically interesting, or even worth of mention. His career was merely apex of Netherese empire; bunch of kids in their treehouse bringing in bigger and more expensive toys trying to impress each other until everything falls down.

Fire off some more things he did, I'll quantify them... They won't really match the Neth, though. These people had houseservants who filched entire layers out of the Outer Planes and made them personal Demiplanes(Sword Play novel). Best of all, the Neth don't need to drain water...

[SirNitram]

And the Netherese are a universe unto themselves, or so they would say.

And the multiverse would fill from pitying laughter.

For the Netherese, blind in their ambition, or those poor sods caught in their influence? Life as a Neth is great.. Life under the Neth sucks....

1) Creates magic. Fair enough. Except the Netherese have the source of all magic(The Nether Scrolls),

Hardly all magic.

All mortal magic in the Realms, certainly. The Elves brought theirs with them.

and one of their number actually replaced the Goddess Of Magic, albeit temporarily.

The Unmaker of the Weave is not intrinsically interesting, or even worth of mention. His career was merely apex of Netherese empire; bunch of kids in their treehouse bringing in bigger and more expensive toys trying to impress each other until everything falls down.

An interesting analogy, but only partially correct. Karsus was a predictable outcome(A society infusing themselves with ever-greater magic will eventually produce someone so bubbling full they can cast innately and be completely mad), but the fact the society produced someone who took a God on on even terms and WON is interesting. This is perhaps singular: Most instances of God-Mortal combat is heavily weighted towards the Mortal: Finder took on a greatly weakened Moander with a very powerful weapon. Midnight had already absorbed Mystra when she blasted Myrkul. Etc, etc. Karsus is unique in taking a Goddess on in her prime and winning without a bajillion things in his favor.

Fire off some more things he did, I'll quantify them... They won't really match the Neth, though. These people had houseservants who filched entire layers out of the Outer Planes and made them personal Demiplanes(Sword Play novel). Best of all, the Neth don't need to drain water...

[Edi]

And the Netherese are a universe unto themselves, or so they would say. So, let's see about this guys actual doings.

1) Creates magic. Fair enough. Except the Netherese have the source of all magic(The Nether Scrolls), and one of their number actually replaced the Goddess Of Magic, albeit temporarily.

Created magic on Athas, as in, there would not be magic if not for him. Athas has no gods at all, but Rajaat was easily powerful enough to be a greater god.

2) Climate changes. Well, the Netherese turned thousands of miles of glaciers into a tropical paradise and then set cities in the sky to fly around.

It took their whole civilization to turn a relatively small portion of inhospitable areas into a paradise with quite a bit of effort, whereas Rajaat's mere presence effected instant, world-wide climate change without him doing anything at all.

Fire off some more things he did, I'll quantify them... They won't really match the Neth, though. These people had houseservants who filched entire layers out of the Outer Planes and made them personal Demiplanes(Sword Play novel). Best of all, the Neth don't need to drain water...

It's life force they drain, to be more accurate, but Rajaat was not restricted that way unlike his followers. He drew power directly from the sun, and the amounts he could use casually were staggering. Even Sadira, a mere half-elf apprentice who was granted the ability to use sunpower for her magic by Rajaat's servants could strike entire cities into ruin with little effort, and she was like a toddler compared to him.

The Dragonkings are easily the equivalent of Netherese sorcerers, they can do quite a lot. To Rajaat they were mainly annoyances when he tried to come back, and he would not have been defeated if not for that he was still briefly vulnerable.

I think you should read the Prism Pentad (the first five books written for the Dark Sun setting) so you would know what he was like. I should probably look into Netheril more, I've just casually glanced at it, but from all indications I've seen, they are not equal to Rajaat. Together, yes, but any single Netherese sorcerer, even Karsus, would be helpless against him alone. Rajaat was, as far as I could gather from all the DS sources I've read, as powerful as any god I've heard of in the AD&D multiverse, Tharizdun excepted. He was not even killed, merely locked back into the Black because he didn't quite manage to break free in time.

This is, based on what I know, the only conclusion I can draw, and I've read everything regarding FR up until the Netheril boxed set and the Netheril trilogy. After I've read those, I might have reason to revise my opinion, but I'll have to wait and see until then.

Edi

[SirNitram]

And the Netherese are a universe unto themselves, or so they would say. So, let's see about this guys actual doings.

1) Creates magic. Fair enough. Except the Netherese have the source of all magic(The Nether Scrolls), and one of their number actually replaced the Goddess Of Magic, albeit temporarily.

Created magic on Athas, as in, there would not be magic if not for him. Athas has no gods at all, but Rajaat was easily powerful enough to be a greater god.

Reserving opinion until I see more of his feats. Greater Gods do alot.

2) Climate changes. Well, the Netherese turned thousands of miles of glaciers into a tropical paradise and then set cities in the sky to fly around.

It took their whole civilization to turn a relatively small portion of inhospitable areas into a paradise with quite a bit of effort, whereas Rajaat's mere presence effected instant, world-wide climate change without him doing anything at all.

Fire off some more things he did, I'll quantify them... They won't really match the Neth, though. These people had houseservants who filched entire layers out of the Outer Planes and made them personal Demiplanes(Sword Play novel). Best of all, the Neth don't need to drain water...

It's life force they drain, to be more accurate, but Rajaat was not restricted that way unlike his followers. He drew power directly from the sun, and the amounts he could use casually were staggering. Even Sadira, a mere half-elf apprentice who was granted the ability to use sunpower for her magic by Rajaat's servants could strike entire cities into ruin with little effort, and she was like a toddler compared to him.

And a house servant of an Archwizard can borrow part of Hell as her personal demiplane, and the steward of the same Archwizard can kill hundreds of demons with one spell(Sword Play). Nothing here that makes him greater...

The Dragonkings are easily the equivalent of Netherese sorcerers, they can do quite a lot. To Rajaat they were mainly annoyances when he tried to come back, and he would not have been defeated if not for that he was still briefly vulnerable.

I think you should read the Prism Pentad (the first five books written for the Dark Sun setting) so you would know what he was like. I should probably look into Netheril more, I've just casually glanced at it, but from all indications I've seen, they are not equal to Rajaat. Together, yes, but any single Netherese sorcerer, even Karsus, would be helpless against him alone. Rajaat was, as far as I could gather from all the DS sources I've read, as powerful as any god I've heard of in the AD&D multiverse, Tharizdun excepted. He was not even killed, merely locked back into the Black because he didn't quite manage to break free in time.

I admit I don't know much about him, but not even Gods are safe from Karsus. Seriously, what has he himself done? His apprentice can flatten a city, but Candlemas can cast Killing Time, which'll kill the people and leave the city standing.

This is, based on what I know, the only conclusion I can draw, and I've read everything regarding FR up until the Netheril boxed set and the Netheril trilogy. After I've read those, I might have reason to revise my opinion, but I'll have to wait and see until then.

Edi

Alright, but I'll still wait on what feats this guy actually did.

[SHODAN]

Karsus was a predictable outcome(A society infusing themselves with ever-greater magic will eventually produce someone so bubbling full they can cast innately and be completely mad), but the fact the society produced someone who took a God on on even terms and WON is interesting. This is perhaps singular: Most instances of God-Mortal combat is heavily weighted towards the Mortal: Finder took on a greatly weakened Moander with a very powerful weapon. Midnight had already absorbed Mystra when she blasted Myrkul. Etc, etc. Karsus is unique in taking a Goddess on in her prime and winning without a bajillion things in his favor.

Yes. Although, a battle did not occur between Mystryl and Karsus. Divine unconcern or compassionate design to stop Netherese from further disrupting the weave, she let him to cast that silly little spell of his. And, since Karsus died very soon afterwards while Mystryl reincarnated herself as Mystra, I would not call it a great victory either, even if Karsus remains only human to have ever achieved godhood through spellcasting.

[SirNitram]

Karsus was a predictable outcome(A society infusing themselves with ever-greater magic will eventually produce someone so bubbling full they can cast innately and be completely mad), but the fact the society produced someone who took a God on on even terms and WON is interesting. This is perhaps singular: Most instances of God-Mortal combat is heavily weighted towards the Mortal: Finder took on a greatly weakened Moander with a very powerful weapon. Midnight had already absorbed Mystra when she blasted Myrkul. Etc, etc. Karsus is unique in taking a Goddess on in her prime and winning without a bajillion things in his favor.

Yes. Although, a battle did not occur between Mystryl and Karsus. Divine unconcern or compassionate design to stop Netherese from further disrupting the weave, she let him to cast that silly little spell of his. And, since Karsus died very soon afterwards while Mystryl reincarnated herself as Mystra, I would not call it a great victory either, even if Karsus remains only human to have ever achieved godhood through spellcasting.

Actually, that's not how it went. The battle is described.. Vividly.. In the novel 'Dangerous Games'. From a point maybe twenty feet away, so that can be considered pretty reliable.

Went, basically, like this:

Karsus starts casting.
Mystryl manifests in the sky, spanning hundreds of miles. Starts to pinch off the Weave to stop the spell.
Karsus begins drawing off Mystryl directly.
Phaerimm attack Karsus. Get blasted like kindling.
Mystryl crippled, kills self to defend Weave.
Karsus manages to get a grip on Magic.
Candlemas casts his 11th level Time Travel spell, disrupting Karsus power, killing Netheril.
....
As Netheril's cities fall, Mystra looks over the carnage as a voice speaks in her head.

'Soon'.


That's close enough to a divine battle: Direct attacks on one another.

[SHODAN]

Actually, that's not how it went. The battle is described.. Vividly.. In the novel 'Dangerous Games'. From a point maybe twenty feet away, so that can be considered pretty reliable.

Went, basically, like this:

Karsus starts casting.
Mystryl manifests in the sky, spanning hundreds of miles. Starts to pinch off the Weave to stop the spell.
Karsus begins drawing off Mystryl directly.
Phaerimm attack Karsus. Get blasted like kindling.
Mystryl crippled, kills self to defend Weave.
Karsus manages to get a grip on Magic.
Candlemas casts his 11th level Time Travel spell, disrupting Karsus power, killing Netheril.
....
As Netheril's cities fall, Mystra looks over the carnage as a voice speaks in her head.

'Soon'.


That's close enough to a divine battle: Direct attacks on one another.

Hmph. Only source accessible for me it Netheril: Empire of Magic, where "battle" is described pretty much as I wrote. When Mystryl reincarnates herself as Mystra, all magic ceases functioning and Karsus, who has not quite finished his grand spell (which still supports his life), dies.

[SirNitram]

That's close enough to a divine battle: Direct attacks on one another.

Hmph. Only source accessible for me it Netheril: Empire of Magic, where "battle" is described pretty much as I wrote. When Mystryl reincarnates herself as Mystra, all magic ceases functioning and Karsus, who has not quite finished his grand spell (which still supports his life), dies.

The descriptions of it vary greatly, but from an in-universe point of view, that makes perfect sense: This is a situation all of five people saw up close, only three of those people survived(And that was 300 years before the event), and was generally very mythic. But I trust the novel, as it was 3rd person omniscient and there, not recounting like a history book.

[Edi]

[quote="SirNitram]Alright, but I'll still wait on what feats this guy actually did.[/quote]
The biggest problem with Rajaat in terms of what he did, is that there are very few events where we can glean precise information.

He's been locked in the Black for eons, and it's taken the combined, continuous efforts of Borys (the Dragon of Athas) and the seven Sorcerer Kings to keep him stuck there. The only time Rajaat is seen in direct action is when he attempts to break out of the Black, and during that attempt he casually wiped the floor with the lot of the Sorcerer Kings, including Borys. The changes in the environment were described as great clouds boiling out of nowhere and beginning a world-wide rain, the sun changing color from red to blue, merely from his confinement being broken. His presence turned back the clock on Athas, back to the Blue Age when all the world was covered with ocean and what land there was consisted of islands and archipelagoes. The Ages of Athas were the Blue Age, followed by the Green Age which resulted from the experiments the halflings made with their lore that caused the oceans to recede and turn Athas earthlike and bring into being the other species. Athas was originally populated only by halflings and thri-khreen. The Green Age ended in the Wars of Purification where the land was laid waste by excessive use of defiler sorcery and turned into desert, the seas drying up and becoming basins of silt. Rajaat's goal all along was to bring back the Blue Age, but he wanted to purify it first, to kill off all the other intelligent species except the halflings (thri-khreen he ignored, they were after all indigenous to the Blue Age). That's where he failed, because his champions, upon learning his true intent, turned against him and betrayed him while he was casting a ritual of some kind or other and vulnerable. If he'd not bothered with the purification nonsense, he could have brought back the Blue Age when he chose. He was capable of that.

There are other references to Rajaat but very few with anything concrete with regard to what he did. Each one of the Sorcerer Kings is by a rough estimate, equal in power to a demigod and considerably tougher to kill, and each had been the bane of an enemy species during Rajaat's Wars of Purification. With the exception of those who revolted against him and left their tasks accomplished, they succeeded in wiping those species off the face of the world (e.g. Hamanu was Trollbane). They were all, Hamanu excepted (he was definitely a cut above the rest and by far the most interesting and complex of them), scared shitless at the mere mention of Rajaat. That's about as definite as it gets, and at any rate it's the best my memory can do at the moment, it's been a long time since I read DS stuff and I'm not about to go and dig it all up from the basement.

I'll take your word on what the Netherese can do, but I guess we don't have enough info to know what happens when we pit Rajaat against them. If we take Rajaat at the height of his power before he was betrayed, I'd definitely put my money on him and the Sorcerer Kings (there were a lot more than seven originally).

Now, Netheril against the other ancient civilizations of FR, such as the ones that used to exist east of Unther and Mulhorand long before even Netheril, that would make for an interesting fight. Too bad info on them is even scarcer than on Rajaat...

Edi