Yoda vs The Hulk

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Post by Darth_Shinji » 2003-06-24 05:02pm

Dark Hellion wrote:oopse almost posted something dumb. But according to the threads beginning (excuse me for not wanting to read 4 pages of fan wanking) it is movie versus movie. So yoda wins. using the force yoda should be able to lift the hulk up and while the hulk is suspended use the force to calm him down and revert him to Banner. Then Yoda goes thwack thwack and wins.
Actaully if you did read you would of relised we are talking of both of them. And your points are mearly repeats of whats been said a dozen times and already have been systematically slaughtered.
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Post by Ghost Rider » 2003-06-24 05:03pm

Ah I see DD has learned how to spam.

And it started as movie...they I wondered if we were going to ignore canon...and now it's blossomed into this mess.

Ah well...and amazing when one side wants to use Upper level...they don't want to hear the other side upper level limit.

Like the saying goes what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
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Post by Darth_Shinji » 2003-06-24 05:07pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Ah I see DD has learned how to spam.

And it started as movie...they I wondered if we were going to ignore canon...and now it's blossomed into this mess.

Ah well...and amazing when one side wants to use Upper level...they don't want to hear the other side upper level limit.

Like the saying goes what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Ingnore cannon? Buddy you particpated in the "I pick examples as I choosed from either meduim too" game. We've seen the upper limit you've presented. If there is something about Yoda you want to present, do it instead of whining.
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Post by Ghost Rider » 2003-06-24 05:12pm

Ah I see so we'll merge the Hulk instead of picking a Hulk.

Note that the first argument was which Hulk was considered canon...and now we get to Merge them into one package...hmm that would dictate the Hulk cannot intiate rage, but is stronger via brains.

This also has the thought if you want to play upper level games...Yoda can fling and catch ISD and block multi MT bolts and crush AT-ATs.

Yes Hulk body poses a challege to someone now who can fling one into the sun when across the planet.
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Post by KK » 2003-06-24 05:18pm

Ghost Rider wrote: Ah well...and amazing when one side wants to use Upper level...they don't want to hear the other side upper level limit.

Like the saying goes what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
You keep using that saying, and you rape its meaning every time.

What you are trying to do is use a lone reference that wildly, WILDLY contradicts 99.99% of all Star Wars canon, and you want that alone to represent the power of the Jedi.

To imply that we are doing anything like that is insulting. The asteroid incident is never directly contradicted. It isn't something on a level Hulk has never been shown as before. He's never proven incapable of much less. It does nto stand head and shoulders a mile ahead of every other Hulk issue in existence. And on top of everything, a central aspect of the Hulk character is his dynamic strength.

Don't pull this good for the goose shit.

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Post by Steven Snyder » 2003-06-24 05:27pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:Wrong, Banner contolled his anger and the transformation it brought on for most of his life before the events of the Hulk took place. It was only after the gamma experiment (where he threw himself on it to save a coworkers life) did it imblanced him enought for the transformation to begin. Even then he took control enought to stop from transforming when being beaten and eltrocuted by Talbot. And then took back control when needed to. All this is showing is that prehaps the Hulks will is usaully stronger then Banners..... Which is quite strong from examples.
You have yet to justify how his will, or even the Hulks will is significantly stronger than that of the average human. Being able to occasionally control your temper is not saying much.

If Banner actually had a strong will, there wouldn't be a movie. He would be able to control his anger, and let it bleed off slowly. But he doesn't have that sort of self-control, he is a slave to his emotions.
Mechaincal seanses which you have no proof off how good they are.
And you have quantifiable figures on the capabilities of the Hulks senses? You don't do you? You can't even stand up to the same scrutiny that you try to submit me to.
Prehaps enought to know Yoda's there. Plus this really comes down to Hulks will. If he
What an interesting statement.
If it comes down to willpower, then all your arguments about the Hulks 'enhanced seanses' are worthless. And if you knew this all this time, why exactly did you bring them up?
Irrelevant to this case, Yoda did not attend Hogwarts and he is not a ghost (at least not in this scenario).
But he is using a very simarly energy. Its more than enought to belive he might be able to seanse Yoda.
He is using a very 'simarly' energy? So basically Harry Potter and Anakin Skywalker are both using the same powers, just call them different names? I am sure we will start seeing Jedi whipping out wands and attending Potions with Jedi Master Snape, and Harry Potter getting his first lightsaber.

Seriously, provide evidence that the Force and Magic are the same thing and use the same 'energy'. You have made the claim, back it up.

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Post by Ghost Rider » 2003-06-24 05:32pm

KK wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote: Ah well...and amazing when one side wants to use Upper level...they don't want to hear the other side upper level limit.

Like the saying goes what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
You keep using that saying, and you rape its meaning every time.

What you are trying to do is use a lone reference that wildly, WILDLY contradicts 99.99% of all Star Wars canon, and you want that alone to represent the power of the Jedi.

To imply that we are doing anything like that is insulting. The asteroid incident is never directly contradicted. It isn't something on a level Hulk has never been shown as before. He's never proven incapable of much less. It does nto stand head and shoulders a mile ahead of every other Hulk issue in existence. And on top of everything, a central aspect of the Hulk character is his dynamic strength.

Don't pull this good for the goose shit.
Ah poor baby doesn't want to see that Hulk has never again performed anywhere near that level of feat as a regular move thus indication it's an upper limit, but doesn't want the upper limit of the Jedi used in offical.

It's nice to see a Wall of Ignorance in action.
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Post by Darth_Shinji » 2003-06-24 05:39pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Ah I see so we'll merge the Hulk instead of picking a Hulk.
I've never said that either. I'm using them as two different fights. I've said that from the begining.
Note that the first argument was which Hulk was considered canon...and now we get to Merge them into one package...hmm that would dictate the Hulk cannot intiate rage, but is stronger via brains.
I've stated my position on this. You can dicaite all you want, no go.
This also has the thought if you want to play upper level games...Yoda can fling and catch ISD and block multi MT bolts and crush AT-ATs.[/quote} only if you give him powers he himself has never used, yes. But then mt is a little less then planet destorying.
Yes Hulk body poses a challege to someone now who can fling one into the sun when across the planet.
Not mucgh, but his thunderclap that overpowered a galaxy destorying force?
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Post by Ghost Rider » 2003-06-24 06:11pm

Strange Jedi use these power and what is Yoda again?

And also given what they did JA...he's able to TK with enough force to crack Hulk's neck or destroy Hulk's heart...and I haven't seen Hulk manifest a TK defense.
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Post by FOG3 » 2003-06-24 06:21pm

That would go something like this

Hulk: Rargh
Yoda: Be at peace you will.
Hulk calms down and turns back into his human self.
Yoda: Much to learn you have.

Jedi have shown the ability to calm people which would end the fight pretty much immediately.

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Post by Darth_Shinji » 2003-06-24 07:11pm

Steven Snyder wrote:der"]

You have yet to justify how his will, or even the Hulks will is significantly stronger than that of the average human. Being able to occasionally control your temper is not saying much.
But being able to resist transformations while bieng beaten into subcounsince is.
If Banner actually had a strong will, there wouldn't be a movie. He would be able to control his anger, and let it bleed off slowly. But he doesn't have that sort of self-control, he is a slave to his emotions.
Jedi aren't able to control there anger either. Heck, the Hulk a being thats suppopesed to be the personifacation of rage didn't slaughter a tribe of women and children.

And I don't even have to prove he has a strong will (which he has) but something better than "weak-minded"... An average mind even counts.... Thats why Jedi mind-powers suck ass.
And you have quantifiable figures on the capabilities of the Hulks senses? You don't do you? You can't even stand up to the same scrutiny that you try to submit me to.
Proved it a little more than you did stormtroopers.
What an interesting statement.
If it comes down to willpower, then all your arguments about the Hulks 'enhanced seanses' are worthless. And if you knew this all this time, why exactly did you bring them up?
Well, I certainly screwed up here. One point for the Yoda side. Even if elementary.


He is using a very 'simarly' energy? So basically Harry Potter and Anakin Skywalker are both using the same powers, just call them different names? I am sure we will start seeing Jedi whipping out wands and attending Potions with Jedi Master Snape, and Harry Potter getting his first lightsaber.

Seriously, provide evidence that the Force and Magic are the same thing and use the same 'energy'. You have made the claim, back it up.
Considering that Harry Potter is not MU magic anyway. I don't see how you've backed your rebuutal in the first place.

And yes, MU magic has many sources of energy, life energy being one of them. Steven Snyder"]
Darth_Shinji wrote:Wrong, Banner contolled his anger and the transformation it brought on for most of his life before the events of the Hulk took place. It was only after the gamma experiment (where he threw himself on it to save a coworkers life) did it imblanced him enought for the transformation to begin. Even then he took control enought to stop from transforming when being beaten and eltrocuted by Talbot. And then took back control when needed to. All this is showing is that prehaps the Hulks will is usaully stronger then Banners..... Which is quite strong from examples.
You have yet to justify how his will, or even the Hulks will is significantly stronger than that of the average human. Being able to occasionally control your temper is not saying much.

If Banner actually had a strong will, there wouldn't be a movie. He would be able to control his anger, and let it bleed off slowly. But he doesn't have that sort of self-control, he is a slave to his emotions.
Mechaincal seanses which you have no proof off how good they are.
And you have quantifiable figures on the capabilities of the Hulks senses? You don't do you? You can't even stand up to the same scrutiny that you try to submit me to.
Prehaps enought to know Yoda's there. Plus this really comes down to Hulks will. If he
What an interesting statement.
If it comes down to willpower, then all your arguments about the Hulks 'enhanced seanses' are worthless. And if you knew this all this time, why exactly did you bring them up?
Irrelevant to this case, Yoda did not attend Hogwarts and he is not a ghost (at least not in this scenario).
But he is using a very simarly energy. Its more than enought to belive he might be able to seanse Yoda.
He is using a very 'simarly' energy? So basically Harry Potter and Anakin Skywalker are both using the same powers, just call them different names? I am sure we will start seeing Jedi whipping out wands and attending Potions with Jedi Master Snape, and Harry Potter getting his first lightsaber.

Seriously, provide evidence that the Force and Magic are the same thing and use the same 'energy'. You have made the claim, back it up.
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Post by Darth_Shinji » 2003-06-24 07:46pm

oops screwed up that one.

Oh and GR are you going to explain yourselfs on JA? Or laught ommunsly with your pants down?

Or prehapes you are refering to the hundred or so jedi knights moving a fleet of SD? That killed the main one leading them?
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Post by Ghost Rider » 2003-06-24 07:49pm

Hmm and would you honestly like to see the scaling down of bunch of Jedis to the Mass and Speed of an ISD?

Let's just take the basis of the fact that they caught something moving in system at 3000c for starters.
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Post by Darth_Shinji » 2003-06-24 08:03pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Hmm and would you honestly like to see the scaling down of bunch of Jedis to the Mass and Speed of an ISD?

Let's just take the basis of the fact that they caught something moving in system at 3000c for starters.
Consider the fact that you have no evedence how the force works and the fact that the most powerful Jedi had to contrate to move 12 or so tons? Even if we weren't to immdetaitly say it was overriden by the movie, than how do you explain how that worked? Was it mearly the addition of all those force powers or was it a multlpier effect? How much of one? How much did "I dead in the attmept" guy contribute to it compared to ever one else?

And you were conplaining that the Hulk smashing a planet was a once feat never before though off. :roll:
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Post by Ghost Rider » 2003-06-24 08:05pm

Oh I see the idea of you don't how it works...you can't say it works.

Nice fallacy jumpin there.

It happened.

Yoda is a Jedi.

At the most outlandish they can move and stop ISDs.

Thank you for playing...are you going to actually put something forth other then"Nu-UH can't happen!!!!"
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Post by Darth_Shinji » 2003-06-24 08:38pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Oh I see the idea of you don't how it works...you can't say it works.

Nice fallacy jumpin there.

It happened.

Yoda is a Jedi.

At the most outlandish they can move and stop ISDs.

Thank you for playing...are you going to actually put something forth other then"Nu-UH can't happen!!!!"
You're the one with the nice fallacy jump, and a stream of hyprocrispy to boot.

You can't get anything meaniful from that example. We do not know how the force works enought to gather anything. Sure, you could calc the ofrce neccary to do that feat then devid.... But you don't know if thats how it worked! Did all those Jedi acted like a multiplyer instead of simply adding the sum of thier tk? Did the guy who died? How much did he gave? And how do we recnocile this feat with a cannon example of much lesser strenght?

And your response?

:That doesn't matter! Your ingnoring the facts! Yoda is a Jedi! A JEDI! Lets forgot that if we added together what took him alot to accomplish a hundreds times it prob is no where near what we need, and that he does come from a greater authority on the matter..... HE IS JEDI!
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Post by Ghost Rider » 2003-06-24 08:43pm

Huh...still have yet refuted that at the obscene upper levels of play displayed in a Jedi is outlandish in power, and is capable of killing Hulk by destroying a vital body part.

Nice little wordplay too...I'll take his words and spout them back.

So are you going to actually come to a refute of how at the supreme upper level limit he's going to avoid Yoda from grabbing his heart and crushing it...given how far a Jedi's Telepathic and Telekinetic control is at this point of the whole gambit?

So far you are keeping up appearence of basically erecting WoI because when you pulled out Uber Hulk, and I decided Uber Jedi in the frame of thought...what's good for one side applies to the other...you now scream.
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Post by Dillon » 2003-06-24 08:45pm

Darth_Shinji wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Oh I see the idea of you don't how it works...you can't say it works.

Nice fallacy jumpin there.

It happened.

Yoda is a Jedi.

At the most outlandish they can move and stop ISDs.

Thank you for playing...are you going to actually put something forth other then"Nu-UH can't happen!!!!"
You're the one with the nice fallacy jump, and a stream of hyprocrispy to boot.

You can't get anything meaniful from that example. We do not know how the force works enought to gather anything. Sure, you could calc the ofrce neccary to do that feat then devid.... But you don't know if thats how it worked! Did all those Jedi acted like a multiplyer instead of simply adding the sum of thier tk? Did the guy who died? How much did he gave? And how do we recnocile this feat with a cannon example of much lesser strenght?

And your response?

:That doesn't matter! Your ingnoring the facts! Yoda is a Jedi! A JEDI! Lets forgot that if we added together what took him alot to accomplish a hundreds times it prob is no where near what we need, and that he does come from a greater authority on the matter..... HE IS JEDI!
What in God's soiled name are you talking about? Obviously the power of the force was multiplied, that's the point there were more than one Jedi there, so it was multiplied by whatever number of Jedi were there. What is your point?
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Post by Jonathanos » 2003-06-24 09:42pm

The Hulk did not destroy an asteroid twice the size of Earth in Tales To Astonish #52. It's Marvel Comics Presents #52. It's not the first time the Hulk has shown strength on planet-mover level.

I submit Tales To Astonish #89--Having only just transformed, the Hulk wades through an energy field containing enough power to move a planet. Not only that, he is also fighting a cosmic being's mental command to remain motionless.

To further just how incredible a feat of strength this is, cross-reference Amazing Spider-Man Annual #3. It is stated that minutes pass after a transformation before the Hulk reaches full power.
Oh, and the Hulk has grown stronger since those days (see IH #250).

IH #305, #398-- The Hulk advances against Vector's power which is powerful enough to prevent Thor from advancing. Vector says that he has "whipped away entire worlds and yet [the Hulk] continues to advance!"

IH #242-- The Hulk grasps a field of pure energy as if it were a physical thing. This is stated by the narrator as something that should be impossible physically but the Hulk does it just the same. He pulls and stretches the field until it collapses.

Marvel Two-In-One Annual #2-- The Hulk steps between the spheres of an anti-matter bomb and overcomes the attraction between matter and anti-matter. Not only does he begin pushing the spheres apart, he actually strikes one with such force that its inertia is completely overwhelmed and it rockets far into outer space.

Secret Wars II #8-- The Beyonder describes the Hulk as an infinite well of power. This would be the same Beyonder who tossed Galactus with ease.

IH vol. 2 #4-- The Hulk's power potential can exceed even the combined might of Wonder Man, Iron Man, Vision, and Scarlet Witch.

Defenders #8-- The Hulk breaks free of a force field which even the Silver Surfer and Doctor Strange are powerless against. The Surfer has battled inside a black hole, btw, just so you know his power level if you aren't familiar.

IH Annual #5-- The Hulk's thunderclap dwarfs the fiercest hurricanes in history, scouring the ground clean of all trees, rocks, and even grass.

TTA #67-- The Hulk's thunderclap is said to be near nuclear level.

IH #126-- The Hulk withstands an attack powerful enough to destroy a cosmos--and it does just that when the Hulk deflects it with a thunderclap.

Secret Wars #4-- The (mostly) Banner-controlled Hulk holds up 150 billion tons of rock for an unspecified length of time.

Rampaging Hulk magazine (I'll have to get back to you on the issue #)-- The Hulk carries an island complete with mountain.

Secret Wars #9-- The Hulk stands up to a repelling attack from Galactus which forces all others back. The Hulk even leaps forward.

Secret Wars #12-- The Hulk damages Ultron, a robot constructed of adamantium.

IH #33-- The Hulk lifts a fully loaded submarine.

IH #174-- The Hulk survives a nuclear-level detonation at ground zero. He is completely unharmed and still conscious.

IH #112-- The Hulk lifts an entire starship while under attack from the Galaxy Master.

Avengers Annual #17-- The Hulk withstands an attack from the High Evolutionary with little effect. Hercules, who has been evolved and is more powerful than ever, has his breath knocked out of him by the Evolutionary's attack.

IH #274-- The Hulk casually pulls thousands of tons while completely relaxed. Later, he leaps and catches a falling train, overcoming its momentum and carries it to safety.

IH #117-- Easily throws the Leader's giant humanoid which has increased its weight to that of a mountain. Looks like it was tossed half a mile or more. The Hulk also survives another nuclear detonation.

The "he crushes the Hulk's windpipe easily" argument:

Future Imperfect #2-- The Hulk's neck resists force stated to be capable of crushing adamantium within 7.2 seconds.

Mental domination:

The Hulk has exhibited resistance to this on several occasions. TTA #100, the Hulk was fighting off the Puppet Master's commands when the Hulk was ordered to kill.

IH #444, the Hulk was resisting the mental control of Onslaught. Not well enough to push him out completely but enough to prevent himself from killing Cable. Then again, Onslaught is Professor Xavier unleashed so...

Cable #34(?)-- When Cable attacked the Hulk on the mental plane, he merely unleashed different incarnations of the Hulk.

Defenders #(?)-- A woman with the power of Yandroth takes over the minds of the Defenders and Dr. Strange notes that the Hulk's mind is difficult for her to control.

IH #404-- The Hulk breaks free of an augmented Mentallo's mental control.

FF #348-- The Hulk resists a Skrull with the power of telepathy.

IH #345-- The Hulk breaks free of the Leader's illusions.

IH #355-- The Hulk breaks free of Glorian's dream power even though he didn't know he was being manipulated. When Glorian tries again, the Hulk is unaffected.

IH #203-- Once enraged, the Hulk is unaffected by Psyklop's hypnotic power.

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Post by Darth_Shinji » 2003-06-24 10:10pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Huh...still have yet refuted that at the obscene upper levels of play displayed in a Jedi is outlandish in power, and is capable of killing Hulk by destroying a vital body part.

Nice little wordplay too...I'll take his words and spout them back.

So are you going to actually come to a refute of how at the supreme upper level limit he's going to avoid Yoda from grabbing his heart and crushing it...given how far a Jedi's Telepathic and Telekinetic control is at this point of the whole gambit?

So far you are keeping up appearence of basically erecting WoI because when you pulled out Uber Hulk, and I decided Uber Jedi in the frame of thought...what's good for one side applies to the other...you now scream.
He's the fact you ingnore, Hulks strenght is thousands of times better than Yoda's TK, in fact of all those Jedi you present by leaps and bounds. That the Hulks regneration would keep him alive enought even while his heart is crushed to thunderclap Yoda's ass into oblivion. Hulk has been stated to not be able to die from his future self.


And observer_20000 I ment like the force itself multiplying the force of those jedi and the sacrifice of that main guy. Which means a Jedi might not even equal a good percantage of that feat by himself.... Its the only way to conside that feat with Yoda's.
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Post by Superman » 2003-06-24 10:39pm

Hey shinji, if we are going by movies and not comics, the idea of thunderclapping is meaningless. He never once did this in the movie.
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Post by KK » 2003-06-24 10:40pm

Jonathanos wrote:[Insert confirmation of Jonathanos's divinity]
Good show.

Darth_Shinji
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Post by Darth_Shinji » 2003-06-24 11:59pm

Superman wrote:Hey shinji, if we are going by movies and not comics, the idea of thunderclapping is meaningless. He never once did this in the movie.
I know, I mentioned it and why that means Yoda is more lilkey to win. Though he then has to deal with the anger size thing.
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Drooling Iguana
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Post by Drooling Iguana » 2003-06-25 12:02am

I haven't read many of the Hulk comics, but do a Thunderclap's effects project forward, or do they just wipe out anything in a sphere of a given radius? If it only projects forward, then all Yoda has to do is get behind him and keep him from turning around (not too hard, even for an infinitely strong being like The Hulk, of you can deprive him of anything to act against by holding him in the air) in order to beat him. If not, then Yoda's probably screwed.

Still, if we're just going by movie Hulk as the original poster said, then Yoda wins hands down.
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Steven Snyder
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Post by Steven Snyder » 2003-06-25 08:48am

Darth_Shinji wrote:
You have yet to justify how his will, or even the Hulks will is significantly stronger than that of the average human. Being able to occasionally control your temper is not saying much.
But being able to resist transformations while bieng beaten into subcounsince is.
Being able to control one's temper on a single occasion is not enough. I find it very odd that you bring up an example of Banner and not the Hulk, Banner's mind is submerged when the Hulk is dominate.

You still have yet to show how the Hulk's or even Banner's will is stronger than the average human.
If Banner actually had a strong will, there wouldn't be a movie. He would be able to control his anger, and let it bleed off slowly. But he doesn't have that sort of self-control, he is a slave to his emotions.
Jedi aren't able to control there anger either. Heck, the Hulk a being thats suppopesed to be the personifacation of rage didn't slaughter a tribe of women and children.
Red Herring The self-control of a padawan Jedi who is already admitted to having anger problems is completely irrelevant to this argument.

It seems you have no defense against my argument that neither the Hulk nor Banner have enough self-control to resist the manipulations of Yoda.

Concession Accepted.
And I don't even have to prove he has a strong will (which he has) but something better than "weak-minded"... An average mind even counts.... Thats why Jedi mind-powers suck ass.
Yes you do. Jedi powers not only work on the weak minded, but on Gungan tribal rulers, drug dealers, and so on.

You made the claim that the Hulk (a childish brute) would be immune to the mental manipulations of an ancient Jedi Master. The burden of proof is on you.
He is using a very 'simarly' energy? So basically Harry Potter and Anakin Skywalker are both using the same powers, just call them different names? I am sure we will start seeing Jedi whipping out wands and attending Potions with Jedi Master Snape, and Harry Potter getting his first lightsaber.

Seriously, provide evidence that the Force and Magic are the same thing and use the same 'energy'. You have made the claim, back it up.
Considering that Harry Potter is not MU magic anyway. I don't see how you've backed your rebuutal in the first place.
Really??? You just specified magic...
And yes, MU magic has many sources of energy, life energy being one of them.
By your own words the force and "MU Magic" operate on different principals and are not the same thing.

Concession Accepted.

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