Yoda vs The Hulk

[KK]

Fine, the force is described as being capable of destroying planets, that gives Yoda an easy win over the Hulk

You guys actually use that as an argument?

If you have to use rhetoric, and not only that but you have to twist the rhetoric to mean something it didn't, that's kinda sad.

[KK]

Try watching the movie, it was stated several times that the Jedi were a lot weaker in AOTC and getting weaker.

Nope. No such luck.

It was stated that the dark side was clouding their vision.

Care to try again?

[Graeme Dice]

Ok, and we've seen things that contradict Super Man's heat vision as being as hot as the sun, but Jonathanos is obviously unwilling to debate in a reasonable manner.

No, I think he's being quite reasonable about this. You might want to point out how this information is contradicted as well.

The Earth's thermosphere has temperatures above 1000 deg C, but you'd still freeze to death if you were up that high. There's a difference between temperature and energy that you might want to look up.

[KK]

Now before you mention that they used the word weakness, try this quiz.


Superman: "I hope they don't know about my weakness."

Which of the following is the correct interpretation of that sentence:

A) "I hope they don't know about Kryptonite."

B) "I hope they don't know that I'm really a 90 lbs weak-ass bitch with asthma and osteoperosis who couldn't lift a car if my life depended on it."

[Sir Sirius]

Try watching the movie, it was stated several times that the Jedi were a lot weaker in AOTC and getting weaker.

Nope. No such luck.

It was stated that the dark side was clouding their vision.

Care to try again?

Bzzzt! Wrong!

"I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished."
-- Mace Windu to Yoda, AotC.

"Use the force", not "clouding our vision".

Try again, asshole!

[KK]

Why don't you post the entire conversation?

[Jonathanos]

And about Super Man's heat vision. The difference is the other examples aren't just dialouge, you actually see them happening. Super Man's heat vision is only described as hot as the sun, but you never see anything that actually indicates this.

If it's described as being as hot as the sun, you need to provide evidence that it isn't.

Fine, the force is described as being capable of destroying planets, that gives Yoda an easy win over the Hulk

The Force may be able to destroy a planet but can Yoda? Yoda is not the Force but a user of the Force.

Both Galactus and the Silver Surfer use the Power Cosmic. Does this mean that the Silver Surfer can perform any feat that Galactus performs? Of course not.

But for the sake of assumption, let's say that Yoda can access the Force on planet-destroying levels...

Great. He's now in the Hulk's league in terms of power. How's this an easy win again?

[Jonathanos]

Ok, and we've seen things that contradict Super Man's heat vision as being as hot as the sun, but Jonathanos is obviously unwilling to debate in a reasonable manner.

You'll just have to forgive me if I don't define unreasonable as quoting in-continuity references.

Or is your definition of unreasonable "non-Star Wars character kicking Yoda's butt?"

[KK]

Why don't you post the entire conversation?

YODA: "Blind we are, if the creation of this clone army we could not see."

MACE WINDU: "I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished."

He was directly referring to Yoda's comment about being blind.

Selective quoting doesn't get you anywhere.

[Omega-13]

Ok are you people saying that Yoda went from
*can rip apart planets using the force*
to
*I shit my pants holding up a 5 ton beam*

give me a break

[Drooling Iguana]

If Jedi can take over minds so well, why did Obi wan or Anakin try and calm the minds of the beasts in ATOC?

Anakin did, slowing it down enough to jump on its back. I'd provide a screenshot, but images from DVDs don't seem to show up in screenshots I take, and my DivX copy is on my Linux partition, which isn't accessable to me at the moment (I dual-boot.)

[Omega-13]

If Jedi can take over minds so well, why did Obi wan or Anakin try and calm the minds of the beasts in ATOC?

Anakin did, slowing it down enough to jump on its back. I'd provide a screenshot, but images from DVDs don't seem to show up in screenshots I take, and my DivX copy is on my Linux partition, which isn't accessable to me at the moment (I dual-boot.)

yea sure a bit, ,how about when he was fighting for his life,

[Darth Wong]

Why don't you post the entire conversation?

YODA: "Blind we are, if the creation of this clone army we could not see."

MACE WINDU: "I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished."

He was directly referring to Yoda's comment about being blind.

Selective quoting doesn't get you anywhere.

Irrelevant rebuttal. The point remains that their ability to use the Force has diminished. Obviously, the degradation of their prescience is part and parcel of that. If you're going to claim that their prescience has become virtually useless while the rest of their powers remain utterly unchanged, the onus is on you to show why one would be affected but not the other.

[Jonathanos]

Who was it that wanted the references? Here they are (again):

The Hulk did not destroy an asteroid twice the size of Earth in Tales To Astonish #52. It's Marvel Comics Presents #52. It's not the first time the Hulk has shown strength on planet-mover level.

I submit Tales To Astonish #89--Having only just transformed, the Hulk wades through an energy field containing enough power to move a planet. Not only that, he is also fighting a cosmic being's mental command to remain motionless.

To further just how incredible a feat of strength this is, cross-reference Amazing Spider-Man Annual #3. It is stated that minutes pass after a transformation before the Hulk reaches full power.
Oh, and the Hulk has grown stronger since those days (see IH #250).

IH #305, #398-- The Hulk advances against Vector's power which is powerful enough to prevent Thor from advancing. Vector says that he has "whipped away entire worlds and yet [the Hulk] continues to advance!"

IH #242-- The Hulk grasps a field of pure energy as if it were a physical thing. This is stated by the narrator as something that should be impossible physically but the Hulk does it just the same. He pulls and stretches the field until it collapses.

Marvel Two-In-One Annual #2-- The Hulk steps between the spheres of an anti-matter bomb and overcomes the attraction between matter and anti-matter. Not only does he begin pushing the spheres apart, he actually strikes one with such force that its inertia is completely overwhelmed and it rockets far into outer space.

Secret Wars II #8-- The Beyonder describes the Hulk as an infinite well of power. This would be the same Beyonder who tossed Galactus with ease.

IH vol. 2 #4-- The Hulk's power potential can exceed even the combined might of Wonder Man, Iron Man, Vision, and Scarlet Witch.

Defenders #8-- The Hulk breaks free of a force field which even the Silver Surfer and Doctor Strange are powerless against. The Surfer has battled inside a black hole, btw, just so you know his power level if you aren't familiar.

IH Annual #5-- The Hulk's thunderclap dwarfs the fiercest hurricanes in history, scouring the ground clean of all trees, rocks, and even grass.

TTA #67-- The Hulk's thunderclap is said to be near nuclear level.

IH #126-- The Hulk withstands an attack powerful enough to destroy a cosmos--and it does just that when the Hulk deflects it with a thunderclap.

Secret Wars #4-- The (mostly) Banner-controlled Hulk holds up 150 billion tons of rock for an unspecified length of time.

Rampaging Hulk magazine (I'll have to get back to you on the issue #)-- The Hulk carries an island complete with mountain.

Secret Wars #9-- The Hulk stands up to a repelling attack from Galactus which forces all others back. The Hulk even leaps forward.

Secret Wars #12-- The Hulk damages Ultron, a robot constructed of adamantium.

IH #33-- The Hulk lifts a fully loaded submarine.

IH #174-- The Hulk survives a nuclear-level detonation at ground zero. He is completely unharmed and still conscious.

IH #112-- The Hulk lifts an entire starship while under attack from the Galaxy Master.

Avengers Annual #17-- The Hulk withstands an attack from the High Evolutionary with little effect. Hercules, who has been evolved and is more powerful than ever, has his breath knocked out of him by the Evolutionary's attack.

IH #274-- The Hulk casually pulls thousands of tons while completely relaxed. Later, he leaps and catches a falling train, overcoming its momentum and carries it to safety.

IH #117-- Easily throws the Leader's giant humanoid which has increased its weight to that of a mountain. Looks like it was tossed half a mile or more. The Hulk also survives another nuclear detonation.

The "he crushes the Hulk's windpipe easily" argument:

Future Imperfect #2-- The Hulk's neck resists force stated to be capable of crushing adamantium within 7.2 seconds.

Mental domination:

The Hulk has exhibited resistance to this on several occasions. TTA #100, the Hulk was fighting off the Puppet Master's commands when the Hulk was ordered to kill.

IH #444, the Hulk was resisting the mental control of Onslaught. Not well enough to push him out completely but enough to prevent himself from killing Cable. Then again, Onslaught is Professor Xavier unleashed so...

Cable #34(?)-- When Cable attacked the Hulk on the mental plane, he merely unleashed different incarnations of the Hulk.

Defenders #(?)-- A woman with the power of Yandroth takes over the minds of the Defenders and Dr. Strange notes that the Hulk's mind is difficult for her to control.

IH #404-- The Hulk breaks free of an augmented Mentallo's mental control.

FF #348-- The Hulk resists a Skrull with the power of telepathy.

IH #345-- The Hulk breaks free of the Leader's illusions.

IH #355-- The Hulk breaks free of Glorian's dream power even though he didn't know he was being manipulated. When Glorian tries again, the Hulk is unaffected.

IH #203-- Once enraged, the Hulk is unaffected by Psyklop's hypnotic power.

And the exact reference I said I'd get back to you with:

The Hulk! Magazine #18-- The Hulk didn't just carry that island by walking it to shore. He swam it to shore. He wasn't on the ocean floor--he was swimming.

[KK]

Irrelevant rebuttal. The point remains that their ability to use the Force has diminished. Obviously, the degradation of their prescience is part and parcel of that. If you're going to claim that their prescience has become virtually useless while the rest of their powers remain utterly unchanged, the onus is on you to show why one would be affected but not the other.

Or you could show where Jedi have ever been more powerful than they were in AotC.

[ShinjiGohan]

TESB, Vader force chokes Admiral Ozzel without moving his hand.

And is Yoda Vader? And are Chokes even allowed in this debate?

Bull shit, we've never seen him go mach 35, try doing some calculations rather than pulling numbers out of your ass.

Ok, missles that are orbit bounch get a head start on the Hulk. Escape velocity(they are going into orbit, hence they must be going at escape velocity) is mach 35 correct aka 25,000 mph, or 11,000+ m/s. Thus logically to cathc up with these missles that were orbit bounch aka going mach 35, the Hulk had to go faster than that speed.

Face it, it is cannon. The Hulks leaps are over 10X faster than the fastest we've ever seen the Jedi move.

You're assuming he'll have time to do that before Yoda has control of his mind.

Yea, what was I thinking. To create a sonic boom (which is the very least of what the Hulk does), he'd need both of his arms going together at least half a mach. So that when they hit it'll be as though something that was mach 1 ran into something. Thus it may create the sonic boom sound. Now never mind the fact that the Hulks Thunder clap is near the power of a nuke. Which would logically mean that he moved his arms even faster. In which all pre cog shows is Hulk clapping his hands together.... and Yoda will be scared by this vision of pre cog how? Also never mind the fact that the Hulk has resisted TP from some cosmic beings (as fore mentioned in this thread, which is probably just a bit over Yoda's abilities). And how all Jean Grey could do is *gasp* close the Hulks eyes. That had he had someone that could crush 7.2 inches of adamantium grab his neck and squeeze and it did nothing (which is far and beyond the mere 15 tons of force Yoda could generate. Or that he's healing factor would probably correct the damage done (if Yoda could even do this).

When his heat vision is said to be hotter than the sun, it's obviously exaggerated. If his heat vision was hotter than the sun, than it should kill any innocent bystanders who happen to be nearby.

Or it could be the truth. And maybe he did it when there weren't any innocent by standers (you do know that in that fight they fought in the mountains where there were no innocent bystanders to get in the way).

And you compare this to Yoda how? Superman with heat vision thats stated to be on par with the temp of the sun. Hits Hulk with this for a moment and he still stands, and keeps on going.

And Yoda who COULD in THEORY access TK of the force that could destroy a planet. Which does what? Put him just under the Hulks punching power. Never mind the fact that it'll take Yoda a long ass time to focus the force in such a way. At which time the Hulk would have long won the battle.

So basicly your saying that ((COULD && THEORY) == (HAS && STATED)). Wow, next time I see someone thats an expert in logic systems, I'll tell them that this is apparently a fact. And see what they say.

Also are you even comparing the heat that the lightsaber generates as being on par with the sun? If thats the case... then how do the Jedi even survive turning on their light saber? A item that has an abundent KE (heat) is transfered to an object that has less KE (heat), via convection or several other methods. and as such, the Jedi should be dead whenever they turn on a lightsaber. So do you care to rethink that comparison?

[Sir Sirius]

Irrelevant rebuttal. The point remains that their ability to use the Force has diminished. Obviously, the degradation of their prescience is part and parcel of that. If you're going to claim that their prescience has become virtually useless while the rest of their powers remain utterly unchanged, the onus is on you to show why one would be affected but not the other.

Or you could show where Jedi have ever been more powerful than they were in AotC.

Have you ever read any of the EU books?

Kyp Durro was able to retrive the Sun Crusher out from the core of Yavin, a gas giant and he later said:

"I don't suppose even dropping it into a sun would have made much difference."
Kyp shook his head. "No, I could have recovered it just as easily."
-- Champions Of The Force, page 237.

Fairly powerfull, yes?

[Nobody]

Irrelevant rebuttal. The point remains that their ability to use the Force has diminished. Obviously, the degradation of their prescience is part and parcel of that. If you're going to claim that their prescience has become virtually useless while the rest of their powers remain utterly unchanged, the onus is on you to show why one would be affected but not the other.

Or you could show where Jedi have ever been more powerful than they were in AotC.

Have you ever read any of the EU books?

Kyp Durro was able to retrive the Sun Crusher out from the core of Yavin, a gas giant and he later said:

"I don't suppose even dropping it into a sun would have made much difference."
Kyp shook his head. "No, I could have recovered it just as easily."
-- Champions Of The Force, page 237.

Fairly powerfull, yes?

No just long distance... He flipped the switchs, NOT Force Pulled it out... It was the Sun Crusher's own drives that got it out... He WANTED to pull it out, but we never saw whether he could...

[KK]

Have you ever read any of the EU books?

Kyp Durro was able to retrive the Sun Crusher out from the core of Yavin, a gas giant and he later said:

"I don't suppose even dropping it into a sun would have made much difference."
Kyp shook his head. "No, I could have recovered it just as easily."
-- Champions Of The Force, page 237.

Fairly powerfull, yes?

So again we're back to using the most powerful Jedi (and Sith) in the history of the Star Wars universe to characterize the average Jedi.

[Jonathanos]

Dude, come on. You lost. You already demonstrated your arrogance, and ignorance, when you stated (OBVIOUSLY without reading the comic crossovers) that Hulk is stronger than Superman.

Give it up, fanboy.

Last I checked, Superman needs a sundip to reach planet-moving levels. I also recall seeing Superman needing the help of several JLA members to hold the Earth in place. Also, Superman has a psionic component to his power that goes beyond mere strength. He once stated that objects seem lighter when he's flying, indicating telekinesis being used.

The Hulk has demonstrated planet-moving and planet-destroying strength on a few occasions.

So... you were saying?

[Superman]

When it comes to crossovers, Superman is 3 and 0 against the Hulk. You don't have to believe me, look it up! Superman does not use telekenetic powers either, that is Superboy.

Superman is out of Hulk's league. Despite the fact that, at base levels, Superman is much stronger (Hulk being listed by Marvel at being in the 100 ton range, while Superman is easily in the thousands or more), Superman cannot be hurt in the same way that the Hulk can. Hulk's invulnerability is due to his thick hide and healing factor. Hulk CAN be injured by explosions, bomb blasts, etc. Superman is basically immune to all of this. Superman also can move at speeds of C, and Superman can fly. Hulk loses, just like he did in the comics.

[Jonathanos]

When it comes to crossovers, Superman is 3 and 0 against the Hulk. You don't have to believe me, look it up!

I don't have to look it up. I have the crossovers. And you are wrong.

Spider-Man/Superman--The two fight and Superman stuns the Hulk. Then the Hulk lands a haymaker that sends Superman hurtling miles away, plunging limply to Metropolis Harbor. Either unconscious or stunned. A couple of pages later, Superman returns and lets the Hulk pound on him. After a few shots, Superman detects the cause of the Hulk's rage and destroys it, ending the fight. Superman looked in control at the end but it was stated that the outcome was in doubt and he had a fair amount of trouble. No one really won this--both had their moments.

Marvel vs. DC-- Superman wins a voted contest. He kayoes a handicapped Hulk. This Hulk had to watch his temper or he would revert to Banner's form. Superman 1, Hulk 0.

Hulk vs. Superman-- The first encounter ends with the Hulk tossing Superman off Earth. No real damage done and it's not significant so I don't credit this as a victory. The second battle has the two going back and forth, neither seeming able to stop the other, when Luthor attacks them with a gamma device. Superman 1, Hulk 0.

Oh, and factor in that the first of the three was Pre-Crisis...

Superman does not use telekenetic powers either, that is Superboy.

Better go tell that to Man of Steel #1, I believe. Superman said that he's noticed how objects seem to be lighter when he's flying. It's not pure strength when he's flying.

Superman is out of Hulk's league. Despite the fact that, at base levels, Superman is much stronger (Hulk being listed by Marvel at being in the 100 ton range, while Superman is easily in the thousands or more), Superman cannot be hurt in the same way that the Hulk can. Hulk's invulnerability is due to his thick hide and healing factor. Hulk CAN be injured by explosions, bomb blasts, etc. Superman is basically immune to all of this. Superman also can move at speeds of C, and Superman can fly. Hulk loses, just like he did in the comics.

The Handbook? Are you joking? The Handbook is wrong. The comic stories contradict the Handbook's stats; the Hulk has so far exceeded his supposed "70 tons when calm" stat, it's pathetic. He's also immune to practically all conventional weaponry just as is Superman. He's even withstood nukes without any harm whatsoever. Neither of the two is invulnerable--and I can show you Superman getting hurt by a tank shell, btw.

Superman's flight and speed mean nothing to your original statement. You said Superman is stronger than the Hulk. The Hulk demonstrates planet-mover and planet-destroyer strength. Does Superman?

[Crossover_Maniac]

Comparing a pissed off Hulk to a six-year old with a temper is like comparing a rabid pit bull to an angry Chihuahua.

In terms of mental state its accurate, and that was the point.

Hardly. Most six-year old toddlers picks fits because they want attention. The Hulk (or as one person calls him, Mini-Godzilla) rips through cities and armies because he's that pissed off. Just because they have the same IQ's doesn't mean the same mental states.

[Superman]

1) Just like what he said in the original crossover, when Superman was ready for Hulk, Hulk couldn't do shit against him. He pounded on an invulnerable immovable body.

2) Second crossover, Hulk loses.

3) Third crossover, Hulk managed to throw Supes into space ONCE. When Superman was ready, he clearly had the advantage. He was too fast for the missiles Hulk threw at him, and Supes even rendered them inert in the process. We never saw the conclusion because they teamed up, but I still say Superman had the advantage there.

The silver age Superman has indeed moved planets, but I am not aware of him doing this recently. I believe Ghost Rider gave the example before...

[LordShaithis]

You can whine all you want, but I saw that Marvel/DC crossover, and the Hulk got knocked the fuck out.

Debate aside, looking at that list of comic references... That's fucking stupid. Planet-moving strength from a human body mutated by radiation? It's the Goku effect: We need more material! Well, just make the hero stronger!